[E3] The rise of female characters - how organic does it feel

Look at my quoted post though. Do you think that anger is due to historical inaccuracy. Perhaps there is a group that is purely butthurt that this isn’t the rainbow six of world war 2. But I think most of it is that it seems like “pandering” or promoting themes they don’t think should be promoted and they lash out. Especially from those that are vocally the loudest.

Like the lesbian kiss in Last of Us. How is this pandering? They already introduced Ellie as a lesbian in the first game dlc, and now that she is older, you could expect naughty dogs storytelling side would explore some of those topics. Especially after uncharted 4 and the low key Drake / Elena moments. I don’t know how you can call it pandering at all. Instead it is naughty dog trying to elevate their storytelling game through some complex topics. Sure most games don’t do it, but most games can’t do it all because they don’t have the same quality writers, facial tech etc
The quoted post doesn't show the name or link to the actual post so I don't know the full context of whether they were talking about battlefield in particular or the overall theme of the thread. I agree with you with that the post (or portion thereof you quoted) comes across as very hostile to women who play games regardless.

I think the only difference between us on the macro topic is I think some people just straight up refuse to play as women characters. I do think they are a minority group, and I don't buy into the notion that they really question why women are included. They just don't want them and will say anything I am guessing.

With respect to the Last of Us, I haven't really paid any attention to coverage because I want to play it cold turkey when it comes out. If people are saying the devs are pandering there I completely disagree with them. The game is very story driven with a focus on relationships between the main characters. The protagonist kissing someone consistent with her already known orientation is moving the existing story forward. That is not pandering by any stretch of my imagination.

All that said, since when do guys get pissed off by a woman kissing a woman?
 
My view is that I don't consider the content of today's videogames as organic at any level.

Everything is contrived and manufactured out of necessity - these are totally synthetic playgrounds (AR games excluded to an extent).
Everything I see in the end product is the result of numerous meetings and considerations, multiple iterations.

OK, so that's a cop-out to an extent, but I don't think its inaccurate.

In reference to OPs 2 points.

1) Maybe the execution of the action could be done better. When I watched the gameplay video the running animation seemed to carry the gait of the male animation. Maybe I'm seeing things. I switch between willfully suspending disbelief in games and making a point of remarking how "this doesn't make sense in real life!" (Assassin Vision, health restores etc etc.)

2) I can't think of a game where a female character slays male opponents in large numbers. With the exception of very theatrical characters (Bloodrayne etc.) where everything is exaggerated for the hell of it. The more recent Tomb Raider games might be the closest we've seen to attempting something resembling a female protagonist, with a few flaws and vulnerabilities, taking on opponents that tend to be male. Maybe that's ruffled some jimmies, I can't recall. Perhaps, due to the character having such an established heritage people don't find themselves viewing the action on those terms.

As an aside, I appreciate this is a games community and so perspectives come from that place, but I feel once real world issues are closer to being resolved, then those in synthetic worlds will follow in a more natural fashion.
 
So do people have a problem with Ellie in TLOU2? After TLOU and years have gone by I wouldn't question it and I'm sure she'll struggle like Joel did in the finished game against certain enemies.
The only real problem recently I've had was Nadine in Uncharted the lost legacy
I didn't understand why she was there, she seem cool when she was introduce in U4 but she was just there to beat up Drake and Sam and be a bad ass women that got away.
Seeing Chloe work with her and Sam and Drake being the bad guys when they meet up and she finds out when she left them for dead didn't make a lick of sense.
She was forced imo
 
The only real problem recently I've had was Nadine in Uncharted the lost legacy
I didn't understand why she was there, she seem cool when she was introduce in U4 but she was just there to beat up Drake and Sam and be a bad ass women that got away.
I really hated her. I felt the agenda pushing was very strong with her. The trope is usually the villains get their come uppance if they're making the heroes look like fools or is thrashing them.

Nothing happened to her, she just gets to get away after embarrassing your heroes.

EDIT: You know what was worse? I knew something like that was going to happen knowing that Druckmann was a lead behind the game.
 
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It doesn't bother me. I respect the developers choices. If they're doing it to make more money, or because they want to, or even if they have an agenda to push, I'm ok with it. I can always choose to not play the game if it made the game worse for some reason.

On the flip side, I'm not ok with people complaining about characters already in games like Cindy from FFXV for example. I've even heard arguments that video game characters are being sexually exploited as if they're real and have feelings.

As far as realism goes, games are mostly always going to be surreal. Until my character poops and pees and masturbates and feels remorse for killing and dies from one gunshot, why would it matter if a woman is able to fight a big guy a bit unrealistically? Again, on the flip side, if a developer made a woman character who wasn't very strong and tried to be realistic about it, I hope they wouldn't get dragged through the mud for it.
 
So do people have a problem with Ellie in TLOU2? After TLOU and years have gone by I wouldn't question it and I'm sure she'll struggle like Joel did in the finished game against certain enemies.
The only real problem recently I've had was Nadine in Uncharted the lost legacy
I didn't understand why she was there, she seem cool when she was introduce in U4 but she was just there to beat up Drake and Sam and be a bad ass women that got away.
Seeing Chloe work with her and Sam and Drake being the bad guys when they meet up and she finds out when she left them for dead didn't make a lick of sense.
She was forced imo
I liked her and was Glad she got a chance at a new life. I like that people aren't one dimensional in the Uncharted Games even the "Bad Guys". Hell people still want Eddie Raja to have survived. No trope says the Dragon can't survive to become an Ally.
 
It doesn't bother me. I respect the developers choices.
You understand that dev aren't making games since long ago...? They are just doing what publisher told them to do, specialy on those big AAA that everyone talk about.

If dev where really those who decide how the game will be with a female as a main characters, all those character wouldn't be just male wearing female skin...
Think about it, take TLoU2 exemple since this is the most obvious : Ellie is just a Joel clone, playing a female doesn't add or change anything, it's not designed to be creative or original, it's just MARKETING.
 
Haha what a joke... here you have a thread with people talking about "Female Leads" being forced when the US has more females than males. Apparently You Guys want to be "Accurate" how about we have Over weight
 
You understand that dev aren't making games since long ago...? They are just doing what publisher told them to do, specialy on those big AAA that everyone talk about.

If dev where really those who decide how the game will be with a female as a main characters, all those character wouldn't be just male wearing female skin...
Think about it, take TLoU2 exemple since this is the most obvious : Ellie is just a Joel clone, playing a female doesn't add or change anything, it's not designed to be creative or original, it's just MARKETING.
By developers I meant anyone involved in the development or decision making of the game, whoever that may be.
 
You guys complain too much. Oh no a game has a female lead, the horror, end of civilisation! I don't really understand why anyone is upset over a couple of gaming having a female lead. What's that thing people always like to counter with when women and minorities ask for characters that look like them? As long as it's fun what does it matter? If we're going to levy that line of argument against them, then we should abide by it ourselves.
 
It's funny because whenever I get the chance to play as a women in a video game I do. My favourite franchise 'was' Tombraider, so I suppose that's part of the reason. However, it was a choice I made, not a political statement. I like to give developers the benefit of the doubt but I'm feeling more and more that the only reason some females exist in a game, particularly the protagonist, is because the devs are pandering to political correctness. The problem here is, even if it isn't, in the current politic landscape and widespread use of the terms 'toxic masculinity' or 'Patriarchy', it's difficult to put those thoughts to one side and play as if that baggage doesn't exist.

I've been watching lots of Let's Plays of TLOU2 and something struck me concerning women in games and lesbian kisses. Let's put it this way in order for people to understand where this man of the 60s is coming from: When the Japanese looking character came up to the bar where Ellie was, did anyone pump their fists because he was a Japanese guy? When there is a black man in a game, do people pump their fists because it's a black guy? The answer of course is no. That's because it's just 'the norm' in society and so invisible to particular scrutiny. And yet, several Let's Plays of the new TLOU2 have had people fist pumping and joyously laughing at the fact Ellie kissed a girl. I see that scene in EXACTLY the same way most people see the first two examples I used. It's the norm and as such Is just an expression of love.

I'd suggest that anyone who feels it necessary to respond in an exaggerated way to that scene hasn't fully accepted a lesbian kiss as the norm. They don't harbour any prejudice but they are taken aback and struggle to fully come to terms with it. If they accepted it as I do then they wouldn't react at all to the fact it was two women kissing, they'd see it only as two people in love.

So I have to conclude that not only does it seem as if the inclusion of women in games isn't exactly organic, I'd also have to conclude that a lot of people who think they're fighting the cause are actually more problematic than anyone critiquing the inclusion of women regarding context.
 
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I don't mind it. I do find it funny when DICE is making pulpish nonsense take of WWII and trying to sell it as authentic, but that;s more of a reaction to their bad marketing than the game itself. Every dev should just create whatever world they want and populate them with whatever characters they like. As long as the game is cool I'm ok with it and if the game isn't good then in most fcases it will be for other reason than character's gender or sexual orientation.
 
Ok I know there is already enough Lst of us but Neil Druckmann has ansered some questions not only about the kiss but also about left behnd and how he felt the kiss there was not earned through the story.


You started that in the Left Behind DLC but that kiss was still a bold thing to show at an E3 press conference. Was that a bold choice to make?
ND: It didn’t feel bold… I guess I can speak for myself - I don’t know how the other people on the team felt about it - but for me Left Behind was harder maybe because I wasn’t as confident writing something like that. For Left Behind we took the kiss out and then we put it back in, I felt like we didn’t earn it, I didn’t want it to feel like it was there for shock value. I really wanted it to feel earned, like it was true to her character. That’s really important to me: are we telling the story and are we writing these characters as honestly as we can.

Then with this, we wanted to show that duality of… Ellie’s already this complex character and then we get this opportunity to spend this whole game with her and see all these other facets with her. And here we can see her being awkward, being naive, being in love, kissing, you see her smile - this is the happiest she’s been maybe in years, and then to contrast that with again whatever this event is that’s thrust her into that situation and she’s a hardcore survivalist, she’s violent - maybe even cruel at times - and that’s the same character. So that felt like the right ingredients for a demo, just representing the tone and feel of what this game is about.

And then once we realised, ok we’re going to show that, it was like, oh, we’re going to show these two girls kissing at E3. I was like, that’s kind of cool, I don’t think that’s been done at E3 before. So it was more like an afterthought, like, that’s going to be cool. It’s going to be something fresh.
This was also pretty much my take on the whole scenes they wanted to show different emotion and times for Ellie. On of her happiest and also the absolute hate she feels now. This is why it felt also natural to me and not really foreced. It had a reason to be in there. And this is how you do female characters the right way. not make them strong and try to hit every checkbox but make them real human beings.
 
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I know we're been asked to move on specifically from Ellie, so I'll make this brief. I'll say right now I have no issues with any characters sexual preference and I don't even care that her, Chloe or Lara are small and are taking down big armoured guys. It doesn't even register in that way for me. These things don't matter to me and I can't think of anything that would make them matter. It's a video game at the end of the day. I feel it's said as well that any opinions have to be prefixed with this.

With regards to the trailer, I don't really care what they do as long as they showed gameplay which they did. And they also had that beautiful intro music and vocals so thumbs up.

With regards to the scene before the transition, it felt like full on fanservice. Again, not really bothered by it but if we are venturing opinions on how it was framed here are my thoughts.

First, the whole thing made me think of a scene from the US Office. In this scene Michael has accidentally 'outed' Oscar as being gay. He then tries to prove he is OK with people being gay by assuming it's OK to kiss Oscar and Oscar wants to be kissed by him. Oscar's response is to push him away and make the point that 'why did you assume that I wanted to kiss you - just because I was gay? Have you considered that I don't want to touch you?'. It's quite an awkward scene. The scene can be watched here from 38 seconds if the link doesn't work


And that's all I could think of when watching the scene. You have this seemingly straight girl who will eventually get back together with her on/off boyfriend, who leans in and just starts kissing her lesbian friend - because she can? Or to make her feel a bit better? The same sort of assumption has been made, that because Ellie is a lesbian she will reciprocate any female kiss or be enamoured by it. Which to me just removes the sexuality promotion becase it's being projected onto her at that point.

Furthermore, and I am certainly no expert on this (just speaking from a point of view shaped by a lot of discussions and opinions that are so prevalent these days), but treating sexuality so flippantly would annoy a lot of women who have actually come out. It's almost projecting that to kiss a woman and enjoy it is just a choice rather than a sexuality/attraction thing.

Honestly the whole scene is a mess to me. The framing of it and the delivery. It's not well written or portrayed. I know a lot of people like to make fun of David Cage. In isolation, this scene is far worse than anything I've seen in HR or B:TS (well, maybe the dancing scene in the living room *cringe*) and it seems it's being overlooked just because of what is in the scene. Does that make sense?

Also, I'd like to note that my entire opinion is based on an assumption but I can only comment on what's been presented by the creative's. For my part, I fully acknowledge the sexuality of the other girl has not truly been shown - maybe she is bisexual? Maybe she is struggling with finding her sexuality as well (leading to the breakup)? I dont know is what I'm saying. I'm adding this for context. This is just a commentary on the portrayal and direction rather than the inclusion.
 
You guys complain too much. Oh no a game has a female lead, the horror, end of civilisation! I don't really understand why anyone is upset over a couple of gaming having a female lead. What's that thing people always like to counter with when women and minorities ask for characters that look like them? As long as it's fun what does it matter? If we're going to levy that line of argument against them, then we should abide by it ourselves.
That kind of answer reminds me of all those articles blaming the 'toxic videogame fans': the journalist ignores the original complaints, fabricates a nonsensical rant instead, and then mocks the fans because those new fabricated rants make no sense. The thing is, nobody is saying that women shouldn't be protagonists in videogames. The devil is in the details. Complains are about the forced pandering and introduction of gender politics in videogames, and there is a lot more to that than just the gender choice for the protagonist.

I've been playing videogames with female protagonists and gender choice since 1983 with zero issues. And since 1983, I've been hearing again and again how those games don't exist. Half the games in my AAA purchase list for this year have a female protagonist or a gender choice, and I purchase primarily games targeting men since, well, I happen to be one. In fact, when you consider games targeting women (for example, hidden object games) the ratio of games with a male protagonist is close to zero. That is a particularly interesting example because I've seen hidden object game developers saying they always have a woman as protagonist because women are underrepresented in that role, even when those games are released by the thousands (Big Fish has been releasing one game a day for years) and almost all of them have a woman as the lead.
 
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Uh, nothing wrong with diversity.

If it's not blatant pandering just for the sake of pandering, I'm ok with that. As long as they're not trying to push a poilitical agenda with games, I'm fine with it.

For example, I really love the new character in Beyond Good and Evil 2, she's got an amazing design.
 
I'd be curious to see the stats, and why do animals/creatures/robots get classified as straight white males? Maybe media made in the US and Europe, both predominately white, are going to skew that way for representation, but no media is made in other countries with different populations?
No, I meant in most entertainment mediums you're more likely to be subjected to straight, white males OR animals/creatures/robots.

I'm not saying the two are the same. Since this entire discussion is in lieu of E3, I can only really speak about the US. Just pointing out, that for a country as diverse as the US is, it shouldn't be a surprise that there is a "rise in female characters". Though women account for 50% of the population anyways, so I don't get why people are so mad.

"Accept the destruction of white nations, or else ur a racist!"

Fortunately, Europe will eventually fix this horror before it's too late. People are waking up all over the continent. I don't want to derail this topic either, I just find such throwaway comments which celebrate the demise of an entire race (aka "in ur face whitey, suck it!") heinous.
This isn't what I'm saying at all. The key term I hoped people would pick up on was "Globalization". It is happening everywhere, Europe, America, Asia, Africa. It's not just white nations. Not entirely sure how it's a "horror". And if we're really going to go down that route, it's a "horror" that Europe caused themselves. I just think that immigration can be healthy, as one of the many benefits it brings is unique experiences in the media we consume.

Not sure how people don't get bored listening to the same rhetoric over and over again - sometimes a different perspective is necessary as the industry is trying to prove. But the video games industry, as we all know is a tough nut to crack.

But hopefully it will get there, eventually.
 
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Do not project inadequacies/labels onto people you are debating with. It is disingenuous and is a pre-emptige tactic to shut down any challenges to your point.
You understand that dev aren't making games since long ago...? They are just doing what publisher told them to do, specialy on those big AAA that everyone talk about.

If dev where really those who decide how the game will be with a female as a main characters, all those character wouldn't be just male wearing female skin...
Think about it, take TLoU2 exemple since this is the most obvious : Ellie is just a Joel clone, playing a female doesn't add or change anything, it's not designed to be creative or original, it's just MARKETING.
Lol wth?
The vast majority thought playing as Ellie was one the best parts of TLOU and lots of people were wishing there was more gameplay where you take control of Ellie.
Then we got Left Behind and it was one of the best DLC's in gaming.

And since Ellie was just a teen in TLOU, and keeping the above in mind, it's only natural that she will be the main character in part two.

You must be really narrow-minded if you think it's purely marketing.
 
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If I get your drift, your point is:
• For people to feel enjoyment and their existence validated, then the media they consume needs to reflect their selves realistically.

But taken to its logical conclusion, just like non whites/males/cishet/etc can only empathize and enjoy their time with representations of themselves onscreen, then so are whites. It feels like your position comes not from a place of celebration of characters from all kinds (which you deny and dismiss, "diverse games" in this year don't exist in your world), but from a place of revenge.
Your later comment where you celebrate the decline and extinction of a specific race (and ironically hide behind "everyone who takes issue with this is racist"), further cements this as your intention. Seriously you're looking like a caricature villain from alt right literature except you're taking yourself seriously. That's not justice, nor "growing up". That's certainly not inclusion. It's even worse than the status quo from years ago, because back then the biases were implicit but now they're explicit and enforced. That's an irrational destructive trajectory that centers on perpetrating racial hatred as your lenses of the world instead of learning to look past it and build something for everyone.
No they don't NEED it in order to feel enjoyment or their existence validated. However, it is very important that we have media where everyone can see themselves in a key decision making position of power. It gives those people the belief that it is possible to get there.

Miles Morales, Black Panther, Bayek, Marus Holloway, Aloy, Evie Frye, Kassandra - These characters should be celebrated and heralded purely for the fact that they exist.

It's the complete opposite - I feel that white people can and do empathise with characters who don't look like them, just as people of colour have been doing for many years.

GTA V, you play as Franklin - who, let's be honest is the main character here. It sold a gazillion copies, the majority who bought it were white males.

This supports my point, that having characters who differ from the majority demographic has little to no impact on that title's quality or sales figures, which has long been an argument for why we shouldn't have women in lead roles.

Still waiting for EA to include Women's Premier League in their FIFA series - not sure what's holding them up honestly.

There is no revenge or malice in my posts, just taken out of context to somehow suggest I want certain ethnicities to end. It was about Globalization, and how it's happening everywhere - whether we like it or not, it's not just white nations.

The video games industry does need to grow up. Luckily, this E3 has shown that the big studios are finally on that path.
 
No they don't NEED it in order to feel enjoyment or their existence validated. However, it is very important that we have media where everyone can see themselves in a key decision making position of power. It gives those people the belief that it is possible to get there.

Miles Morales, Black Panther, Bayek, Marus Holloway, Aloy, Evie Frye, Kassandra - These characters should be celebrated and heralded purely for the fact that they exist.

.
Miles Morales would have had much more impact if he were not another Spider man but its own character and Hero wih its own powers. now he is just another Spider Man. And that sis why I do not like this gender and race switching. Female Thor? Why? Thor is Thor and no one else. Make new and exciting but also very diverse Superheroes and do not build up on the success of others which of course will get angry reactions. BP was totally fine and he was his own character.
 
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absolute no problem with femme fatales or women as (main)char in general as long as they are not "forced" into that role only because of the excessive feminism hype. (or radical feminism which i prefer)
 
I can't think of a game where a female character slays male opponents in large numbers. With the exception of very theatrical characters (Bloodrayne etc.) where everything is exaggerated for the hell of it. The more recent Tomb Raider games might be the closest we've seen to attempting something resembling a female protagonist, with a few flaws and vulnerabilities, taking on opponents that tend to be male. Maybe that's ruffled some jimmies, I can't recall. Perhaps, due to the character having such an established heritage people don't find themselves viewing the action on those terms.
I can't think of neither game nor a movie, where character of any gender slays female opponents in large numbers. :)
 
GTA V, you play as Franklin - who, let's be honest is the main character here. It sold a gazillion copies, the majority who bought it were white males.
Oh come on, if GTA V has main character it's Michael :)
But yes, people don't care. San Andreas was ridiculous success back in the day. Blade was the first successful Marvel movie etc. People like cool characters, regardless of the race. And the hate some minority characters get is because they suck as characters. Of course there are some idiots that will hate just because of skin color or gender, but thankfully they are small minority, even if they can be very loud.
 
I'm fine with more female main characters in games and I will usually play as one if given the choice because I really love strong female heroes.

Same with different races as leads, no issues as far as I'm concerned.

All humans are equal to me outside of varying statuses (controlled and uncontrolled).

I just don't like it when its someone's particular agendas pushing this stuff in some movies and games. Most of the people pushing that shit are usually heinous more often than not.
 
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I am super tired of the pretty cliched "strong woman" direction from the modern games that is using strong men as prototypes for the behavior. Evie from Assassin's Creed did it much better. There are ways in which powerful females exert their influence and violence is one of their notorious weak spots. In a game that wants to be taken so seriously, Ellie having same amount of problems killing females as males is just off putting. Moreover - her being basically a masculine butch screams "I AM A FAILURE" at me and does not look as if it was empowering.

Conversely in TLoU1 Ellie's sections were done with more taste - she had a whole different combat dynamic from Joel and basically, this combat dynamic is what I would've expected from her in the new game too.

Some suggestions that I would voice to Druckmann and his Game Design team, having a chance:
In TLoU 2 having females enemies behave as "normal" enemies, while any male would be as difficult to fight as the "big bad guy" from the trailer - that would be great and it would explore the vulnerable side of women overall. To further diverge male vs female approach to Power and Conflict, I would also give Ellie more options to deceive, distract, manipulate and confuse male enemies. I would also expect her not to ever travel alone and have a strong male sidekick that would make for an interesting dynamic, granted he'd strive for Ellie's attention without knowing that she's a lesbian. Exploring the fact that females exploit males for their power and strength, while making moral sacrifices for the better good in the long term is also quite fresh and is unexplored in gaming.
 
Tomb Raider is a very good game, with a very good leading char.
Gears i didnt liked at first the change in the main char, but i can see that being good, she was a good char in Gears 4.
I Wanted more Joel in TLOU 2, maybe some lvls playing Ellie, but ill wait for the final release, maybe thats the case.
 

Cybrwzrd

Anime waifu panty shots are basically the same thing as paintings of the french baroque masters, if you think about it.
No, I meant in most entertainment mediums you're more likely to be subjected to straight, white males OR animals/creatures/robots.

I'm not saying the two are the same. Since this entire discussion is in lieu of E3, I can only really speak about the US. Just pointing out, that for a country as diverse as the US is, it shouldn't be a surprise that there is a "rise in female characters". Though women account for 50% of the population anyways, so I don't get why people are so mad.
That is why I asked for receipts.

Outside of the annual AAA shovel-ware titles (COD, BF, AC, Sports), where is this lack of diversity you speak of. I don't really see a lack of female characters. I don't think you can expect the annual NFL game to be filled with all women teams for the sake of "fairness".

Even in the US, which is a diverse country, Whites outnumber the second largest minority group 5:1. They are going to buy the majority of video games, and consume the vast majority of media in this country. You act like this is some sort of tragedy in your other posts.
 
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I came across a thread on twitter with a particular group struggling with TLOU2 kiss scene... They were delighted with the representation but frustrated that straight men might also enjoy it!
 
I came across a thread on twitter with a particular group struggling with TLOU2 kiss scene... They were delighted with the representation but frustrated that straight men might also enjoy it!
Yeah, in my experience the intersectionalists don't want to make everyone equal and happy, but instead to oppress someone and feel good and validated about doing so.
 
Lol wth?
The vast majority thought playing as Ellie was one the best parts of TLOU and lots of people were wishing there was more gameplay where you take control of Ellie.
Then we got Left Behind and it was one of the best DLC's in gaming.

And since Ellie was just a teen in TLOU, and keeping the above in mind, it's only natural that she will be the main character in part two.

You must be really narrow-minded if you think it's purely marketing.
Ellie doesn't play like Joel in TLOU 1, that the whole point of my post... But whatever it's pointless to talk gaming and gameplay in a "social" white knight thread.
Just enjoy your copy/paste female Rambo.
 
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That kind of answer reminds me of all those articles blaming the 'toxic videogame fans': the journalist ignores the original complaints, fabricates a nonsensical rant instead, and then mocks the fans because those new fabricated rants make no sense. The thing is, nobody is saying that women shouldn't be protagonists in videogames. The devil is in the details. Complains are about the forced pandering and introduction of gender politics in videogames, and there is a lot more to that than just the gender choice for the protagonist.

I've been playing videogames with female protagonists and gender choice since 1983 with zero issues. And since 1983, I've been hearing again and again how those games don't exist. Half the games in my AAA purchase list for this year have a female protagonist or a gender choice, and I purchase primarily games targeting men since, well, I happen to be one. In fact, when you consider games targeting women (for example, hidden object games) the ratio of games with a male protagonist is close to zero. That is a particularly interesting example because I've seen hidden object game developers saying they always have a woman as protagonist because women are underrepresented in that role, even when those games are released by the thousands (Big Fish has been releasing one game a day for years) and almost all of them have a woman as the lead.
You should ask yourself why you consider anything other than straight white male characters as "pandering."

You telling these other groups to get over it and stop whining about it, yet here you guys are upset and whining about it instead of just getting over it. AC:O has a female playable character? Okay pick the male playable character, problem solved.

Oh no the developer didn't pander to us with a shallowly written, two dimensional character whose actions, reason for being in the game, and motives are barely justified but instead made the character Hispanic, or black, or a woman! Suddenly NOW they need justification, well written story, character depth or it's not good but rather forced
 
Miles Morales would have had much more impact if he were not another Spider man but its own character and Hero wih its own powers. now he is just another Spider Man. And that sis why I do not like this gender and race switching. Female Thor? Why? Thor is Thor and no one else. Make new and exciting but also very diverse Superheroes and do not build up on the success of others which of course will get angry reactions. BP was totally fine and he was his own character.
I feel this is kinda unfair (to Miles I mean, I agree female Thor should at least have had a different name and more unique look) because legacy characters have existed in comics for decades. There are multiple Green Lanterns, Flashes, Batgirls, Robins, etc. It showed the legacy that the original mantle inspired other people to further that legacy for the benefit of the people. And that legacy is open to anyone, I mean in the 70's John Stewart received his Green Lantern ring, and today you have examples like Kamala Khan donning the mantle of Ms. Marvel. They still have their own characterization, dreams, goals, etc., just because they're inspired by the original hero doesn't mean they're solely defined by that person.

I mean, even The Dark Knight Rises says a mantle isn't exclusive to one person:

 
Ellie doesn't play like Joel in TLOU 1, that the whole point of my post... But whatever it's pointless to talk gaming and gameplay in a "social" white knight thread.
Just enjoy your copy/paste female Rambo.
Ofcourse she doesn't play like Joel, she's Ellie.

Anyway, you were claiming that ND chose to put the spotlight on Ellie this time, purely for marketing.
That's what I reacted to, not gameplay.

Ellie being the main character in Part II is the most logical progression of the franchise, same as her lesbian-romance.
It has very little to do with anything you claim.
 
You should ask yourself why you consider anything other than straight white male characters as "pandering."

You telling these other groups to get over it and stop whining about it, yet here you guys are upset and whining about it instead of just getting over it. AC:O has a female playable character? Okay pick the male playable character, problem solved.

Oh no the developer didn't pander to us with a shallowly written, two dimensional character whose actions, reason for being in the game, and motives are barely justified but instead made the character Hispanic, or black, or a woman! Suddenly NOW they need justification, well written story, character depth or it's not good but rather forced
Tell you what, if you won’t have issues with games that present straight white men in a positive light, I can do the same for other genders and races.

Many of us did have issues with 2dimensional male characters. Just do a search for “bald space marine”.

The opportunity to have our cake and eat it is here. Everyone has value - stop throwing white heterosexual men under the bus and we’ll help promote varied cool characters too.

It doesn’t have to be a war. Let’s help each other here.
 
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I am super tired of the pretty cliched "strong woman" direction from the modern games that is using strong men as prototypes for the behavior. Evie from Assassin's Creed did it much better. There are ways in which powerful females exert their influence and violence is one of their notorious weak spots. In a game that wants to be taken so seriously, Ellie having same amount of problems killing females as males is just off putting. Moreover - her being basically a masculine butch screams "I AM A FAILURE" at me and does not look as if it was empowering.

Conversely in TLoU1 Ellie's sections were done with more taste - she had a whole different combat dynamic from Joel and basically, this combat dynamic is what I would've expected from her in the new game too.

Some suggestions that I would voice to Druckmann and his Game Design team, having a chance:
In TLoU 2 having females enemies behave as "normal" enemies, while any male would be as difficult to fight as the "big bad guy" from the trailer - that would be great and it would explore the vulnerable side of women overall. To further diverge male vs female approach to Power and Conflict, I would also give Ellie more options to deceive, distract, manipulate and confuse male enemies. I would also expect her not to ever travel alone and have a strong male sidekick that would make for an interesting dynamic, granted he'd strive for Ellie's attention without knowing that she's a lesbian. Exploring the fact that females exploit males for their power and strength, while making moral sacrifices for the better good in the long term is also quite fresh and is unexplored in gaming.
If you watch the video closely, you'd see that Ellie actually is weaker than her male opponents.
But being weaker does not mean you can't fight and kill stronger opponents. Especially not since Ellie is using weapons non-stop. If you think a "weak" woman with a machete fighting for her life is not capable of beating grown men, than you're straight up delusional.

Also, her strikes have less impact and she needs to give it her all every single time. Just watch the animations closely and you'll see. It isn't exactly a walk-in-the-park for her.
 
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Haha what a joke... here you have a thread with people talking about "Female Leads" being forced when the US has more females than males. Apparently You Guys want to be "Accurate" how about we have Over weight
Who's the target audience of these games? Keep alienating your audience. See where that leads you.
 
You should ask yourself why you consider anything other than straight white male characters as "pandering."
That's not what I think. Do you know what I consider pandering? Things like nonsensical gender swaps on iconic characters, obnoxious Mary Sue traits assigned to characters just because they are part of a privileged identity group, obvious and out-of-place preaching, and unnecessary artistic constraints shoe horned by gender politics.

You telling these other groups to get over it and stop whining about it, yet here you guys are upset and whining about it instead of just getting over it. AC:O has a female playable character? Okay pick the male playable character, problem solved.
Why are you accusing others about yelling 'get over it', while you are doing exactly the same thing, in the same paragraph?

I said this in the post you quoted, but I'll repeat myself: nobody has a problem with the mere presence of women in videogames. The devil is in the details.

I've been waiting for a female protagonist in AC for ages and greatly enjoyed playing as Evie in Syndicate, which was a well done addition. I'll probably play AC:O with Kassandra, but I'll keep my expectations low. You can't simply gender swap a character in ancient Greece and expect the same reactions, dialogue and quests. It is probably going to be the first Mass Effect all over again, except in a setting where it makes absolutely no sense.
 
Gaming has always been a Male dominated hobby for males. I don't go to the fashion industry and demand more representation. It's just numbers women. do. not. play.,games. Theres no sexism, it's just a fact women don't games and never will. Theres no reason to cater to them, none at all.
Reading this minutes after having read an article about the PayPal research results that women game more then men in the country I am currently in sure is something.
 
Reading this minutes after having read an article about the PayPal research results that women game more then men in the country I am currently in sure is something.
I mean, not counting mobile games it's highly likely men are still the higher percentage of gamers, BUT Vangelis' claims that practically no women play video games is obviously ridiculous. I mean, beyond just going on Youtube/Twitch and finding all the female LP'ers out there, I have quite a few female co-workers and friends who game, and have heard a few women on mic when playing Overwatch and Friday the 13th. I'm sure all of them would be appreciate being told they don't actually exist and that there's zero reason the industry should take their thoughts and opinions into consideration at all.
 
Then we got Left Behind and it was one of the best DLC's in gaming.
Was it? I may have overlooked it but it didn't seem like that good of a DLC. For me, Joel was the main thing that made TLoU shine and the DLC didn't feature him, instead focusing on Ellie's friendship which was okay-ish. It also had severely less gameplay than the original game, which already had problems with scripted walking sequences and "puzzles".
 
I mean, not counting mobile games it's highly likely men are still the higher percentage of gamers, BUT Vangelis' claims that practically no women play video games is obviously ridiculous.
It's as if... Vangelis doesn't really interact with women regularly, is somewhat bitter about it and rants about it online from the comfort of what little pseudonymity the internet provides?

I know, this is such a far-fetched scenario.
 
You should ask yourself why you consider anything other than straight white male characters as "pandering."

You telling these other groups to get over it and stop whining about it, yet here you guys are upset and whining about it instead of just getting over it. AC:O has a female playable character? Okay pick the male playable character, problem solved.

Oh no the developer didn't pander to us with a shallowly written, two dimensional character whose actions, reason for being in the game, and motives are barely justified but instead made the character Hispanic, or black, or a woman! Suddenly NOW they need justification, well written story, character depth or it's not good but rather forced
Well there is a distinct difference between pandering and representation.

To pander is to make a character diverse but nothing else. For example, say you create a gay male character, but his only issues relate to being gay, whenever he talks to someone, everything he says or does relates to being gay. The only issues he ever faces relate to his sexuality. The character never experiences anything else in their life or never has any other issues except for ones that have the sole purpose of wording a form of social commentary. Such a character grows old fast, and starts to become more of a token or even somewhat offensive. This panders to the idea of the social commentary over the actual person. As a black man, I've always been bothered by black characters whose sole existence is based on just being Black. Some of my favorite super heroes are black, but I share more in common with them than just being black. I never really liked Black Panther, but always been a big fan of Mr. Terrific. Both are black characters but I never really liked BP's personality, and floated more towards Mr. Terrific's.

On the other hand, representation keeps in mind that just because they have one trait, does not mean they are solely that trait. Let's again use our gay male character from before. Now let's give him a husband/boyfriend. Now let's say, with this being video games, he is a demon hunter and has been chosen to keep the portals of the underworld from opening. The story focuses on his job as the demon hunter, how it effects his life, what he loses and gains as the story progresses. What he learns. How he feels when he's with his husband. Does the job effect their relationship? Does his husband even know what he does? If not, will he ever tell him? Or will he try to keep it secret as long as he can? Is he ashamed of it? Does the constant fighting bother him? Does it cause stress? How does he handle stress? Are all his stresses treated the same or does he say drink heavily when dealing with demons and just breathes heavily when dealing with annoying people? How does he interact with just the average populace? What about his past? Was his family involved with the demon hunting? Were they out of the loop? Did it cause conflict with his family? Did he have a family? Maybe he was abandoned, does that have some sort of effect on him? The character changes based on history, relationship (familiar and non-familiar), environment, job, stress and other factors, forming a personality. His sexuality plays a part of course, but isn't what defines the character. What ultimately defines him are the choices he makes and paths he takes, which the player would experience. This makes it so anyone could enjoy this person as they'd find a connection with them regardless, rather than focusing on one type of trait that only a few could connect with.
 
I would also expect her not to ever travel alone and have a strong male sidekick that would make for an interesting dynamic, granted he'd strive for Ellie's attention without knowing that she's a lesbian. Exploring the fact that females exploit males for their power and strength, while making moral sacrifices for the better good in the long term is also quite fresh and is unexplored in gaming.
All of this sounds like pandering in the opposite direction. She needs a strong male sidekick? Can only deceive to succeed? Ridiculous.

Although this confirms my thoughts on why people are upset. The representation above is what some men want to see because it promotes there own beliefs they bestow upon women. If anyone shows a female that doesn’t have those traits, then it’s like “whoa there let’s slow down”
 
Has anyone seen an actual count and compared it year to year? Is it actually much different or are people just looking for it more?
There's an article about the gender breakdown in E32018 recently posted online. Only 9 games with only a female protagonist or 8%. Last year was 7% so this doesn't seem that big of a deal.