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[Doom85]

I am not I can see this reason as there plenty of male characters that aren't very well written. So I am interested to see your reason.
ar?

Yeah, that mindset has always bothered me. Why does anyone only bring up women and non-white characters when they say "they have to be written well"? Last time I checked all characters should be written well, but for some reason we have to put special emphasis on the female and non-white characters in that regard. It would be like if someone watched a really generic slasher horror movie and said, "man, that black guy was clearly just there as token diversity, he had practically no characterization" when in the movie practically none of the characters had characterization. It's a bit of a double standard in my book.

 

[Zog]

Brutality and violence is accepted in US but still, there has to be context for it.

Actually, brutality and violence is accepted if it's happening to men but not when it's happening to women.

 

[Baskin Robbins]

Well, DeadmanPhoenix, by that argument the first game should have ended much differently with Joel and Ellie pushing daises well into their story. I mean, Joel kills hundreds of people, often unassisted by Ellie, before the game is over and just shrugs off stabs and gunshot wounds with a mere bandage. In the final section of the game, he successfully kills dozens of soldiers armed with machine guns and Joel has zero protective clothing of any kind. "Oh, but he used stealth!" Please, realistically a guy holding that much equipment on him would not be able to stealthily maneuver his way around that many soldiers without making a noise and getting surrounded.

But of course, this is all fine apparently. It's only when Ellie begins killing a few people do we suddenly call BS. MAKES TOTAL SENSE. I'm definitely not giving Naughty Dog my money. I expect this game about a mushroom-based infection apocalypse to fully follow the rules of reality!

I also refuse to buy Ghost of Tsushima. Anyone with any knowledge of hand weapon fighting would know those trained soldiers should have had him dead. No swordsman, no matter how skilled, can take on three armed opponents at the exact same time. Instead, conveniently the game has them challenge one at a time which is stupid behavior for trained soldiers. Absolutely unrealistic and thus they won't be receiving my money.

You know, it's almost like there are acceptable breaks from reality in fiction, and when you give far more scrutiny to what is realistic the female characters can do and give less scrutiny to what the male characters can do then people are naturally going to call you out on it. I know, crazy amirite?!

Hey! Not to be anal or anything, but I can ditch all the soldiers in the last part with the exception of the final room with all the cover, leading in to the path to the surgery room.
It took a lot of deaths to figure out how to do it, but it's legit. Haha.

Also, Hi. Enjoying the forum?

 

[Dr. Claus]

I am not I can see this reason as there plenty of male characters that aren't very well written. So I am interested to see your reason.
ar?

Sorry, confused by the wording of your first sentence as well as your last. What does 'ar' mean?

Anyways, what I think you are asking is that there are plenty of games with terribly written male characters, right? Well, yes there are and they are rated poorly for the terribly written characters. As an example, lets look at the God of War franchise. Kratos was a well written character in the first game that aped classical greek story telling and myth structure very well. The game was rated highly because of it, however as the games continued Kratos received very little to no substantial character growth and the games were soon rated more poorly because of it (though gameplay/world design tended to pick up the slack). Then we have God of War (2018), which offered a large dose of character progression for Kratos and was rated highly for it.

We should have good characters for the same of good characters. We do not need a character shoved into a particular slot to fill a checkbox or appease some random person who whines on the internet about the lack of "diversity" or "representation" of whatever they may be. It will never be enough for them, so developers should focus on creating strong characters that feel natural in the story they are trying to tell. Good writing is what we need. Quotas for diversity is what we don't.

Pardon, very tired so I may have misunderstood what you meant.

 

[Dlacy13g]

Does the rise of female gamers feel organic? sorry but this topic just seems ridiculous and showing an insecurity.

 

[Tripolygon]

Sorry, confused by the wording of your first sentence as well as your last. What does 'ar' mean?

Anyways, what I think you are asking is that there are plenty of games with terribly written male characters, right? Well, yes there are and they are rated poorly for the terribly written characters. As an example, lets look at the God of War franchise. Kratos was a well written character in the first game that aped classical greek story telling and myth structure very well. The game was rated highly because of it, however as the games continued Kratos received very little to no substantial character growth and the games were soon rated more poorly because of it (though gameplay/world design tended to pick up the slack). Then we have God of War (2018), which offered a large dose of character progression for Kratos and was rated highly for it.

We should have good characters for the same of good characters. We do not need a character shoved into a particular slot to fill a checkbox or appease some random person who whines on the internet about the lack of "diversity" or "representation" of whatever they may be. It will never be enough for them, so developers should focus on creating strong characters that feel natural in the story they are trying to tell. Good writing is what we need. Quotas for diversity is what we don't.

Pardon, very tired so I may have misunderstood what you meant.

Yea no. Developers should create as much shoddy diverse characters as they want, to fill whatever demographic, to appease whatever random person who whines. News flash, nobody is doing that, developers create what they want, some turn out good and others bad. You and most people who are complaining about people whining about diversity seem to not grasp the irony that you are actually the whiners. People want to be represented, good or bad. Society is filled with good, bad and whatever that is in between kind of stereotypes that is out there. I enjoy a bad movie as much as i enjoy a good movie. Being perfectly represented is not and has never been a criteria for people who want to be represented.

People just simply want to be represented. How hard is that to understand.

 

[Nutsogood]

Actually, brutality and violence is accepted if it's happening to men but not when it's happening to women.

Nah, it's generally accepted whether it's a woman or not. Not sure what country you from but in the US it's definitely accepted. If it wasn't we'd have more strict laws regarding domestic violence, rape, what's shown on TV or film, or even video games. We wouldn't have women's boxing or MMA, or rough porn. Just because you don't like it, or it might be illegal doesn't mean it's not accepted. And if you haven't noticed these days, the #Metoo issues that women have been raising have been going on for years, if not decades. It was happening to women. And yup it was accepted. Because if it wasn't, this movement would've started in the 20th century, not the 21st. Violence towards women is probably accepted throughout the world, because it's been a common theme throughout history. Doesn't mean its right, but to say it's not accepted for women is incorrect.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Nah, it's generally accepted whether it's a woman or not. Not sure what country you from but in the US it's definitely accepted. If it wasn't we'd have more strict laws regarding domestic violence, rape, what's shown on TV or film, or even video games. We wouldn't have women's boxing or MMA, or rough porn. Just because you don't like it, or it might be illegal doesn't mean it's not accepted. And if you haven't noticed these days, the #Metoo issues that women have been raising have been going on for years, if not decades. It was happening to women. And yup it was accepted. Because if it wasn't, this movement would've started in the 20th century, not the 21st. Violence towards women is probably accepted throughout the world, because it's been a common theme throughout history. Doesn't mean its right, but to say it's not accepted for women is incorrect.

not really. it took a while before mma and more specifically ufc allowed women to fight. it was only until recently they were allowed to and before they were dana white even said he wouldnt ever allow a women to fight. clearly things have changed but it really was super recently. and even in media its a taboo subject. i remember in LA there was a huge controversy because of an xmen billboard with apocalypse holding mystique by the throat. it got lots of backlash for being pro violence towards women.

 

[Dunki]

I meant that I'm using the report to point that out. The data isn't false. She just wants gender parity in games.

I wanted to put this in perspective again.



So yes they do not even count games which both are the main protagonist lke in Odesssey for exampe. She does not want parity she wants fake outrage because then she can make more money and Sites like Polygon are full into this scam.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

how in this day and age are people still listening to anita? to me thats the craziest part. she had her 15 minutes of fame and if youre still listening to her now there really is no helping you

 

[cormack12]

To touch on an earlier point, I think expecting a male escort to offer some sort of protection in this sort of dystopian, broken down society is a bit naive. I mean, that's evidenced in the scenes of say Mad Max (obviously NSFW link). I think TLoU is gravitating towards this more than say The Book of Eli scene where a damsel in distress in rescued.

However, that extends beyond the sex of the protagonist. That's a personal choice. Ellie has already survived in the wild essentially alongside Joel. Maybe she is the most capable and doesn't want the burden of babysitting. Maybe she's still burned by being left by everyone and it's a trust issue. I mean, put in that position (as male or female) would you want say a male companion that would slow you down, was slow and/or inexperienced?

Again though we are seeing the tepid response of Ocean's 8 being blamed on too many male critics now. It's like nothing was learned from Ghostbusters again. They completely miss the point. Exactly the same reaction would be had if Tomb Raider was announced with a male lead and it was Jim Carrey. Any honest discussion is just shut down, completely. I think this is a wider cultural problem at the moment and videogames are an easy target. Just like violence etc.

It's difficult to stay so focused in this discussion because it's so wide ranging.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

To touch on an earlier point, I think expecting a male escort to offer some sort of protection in this sort of dystopian, broken down society is a bit naive. I mean, that's evidenced in the scenes of say Mad Max (obviously NSFW link). I think TLoU is gravitating towards this more than say The Book of Eli scene where a damsel in distress in rescued.

However, that extends beyond the sex of the protagonist. That's a personal choice. Ellie has already survived in the wild essentially alongside Joel. Maybe she is the most capable and doesn't want the burden of babysitting. Maybe she's still burned by being left by everyone and it's a trust issue. I mean, put in that position (as male or female) would you want say a male companion that would slow you down, was slow and/or inexperienced?

how is that naive? i mean in a real world situation id rather have a big fucking dude back me up then a woman who is 5'2. and just a dude in general and in these situations you 100 percent arent going alone anywhere. by todays standards its fucked up but i mean in a life or death situation its not. but at the end of the day its a fucking video game. in the last of us demo ellie took a sledge hammer to the dome and was cool about it. im not expecting realism here but at the same time thats what the game is trying to push.

 

[cormack12]

how is that naive? i mean in a real world situation id rather have a big fucking dude back me up then a woman who is 5'2. and just a dude in general and in these situations you 100 percent arent going alone anywhere. by todays standards its fucked up but i mean in a life or death situation its not. but at the end of the day its a fucking video game. in the last of us demo ellie took a sledge hammer to the dome and was cool about it. im not expecting realism here but at the same time thats what the game is trying to push.

Yes, but that's based on traits not sex. I'm not going too deep into realism (guns, blunt weapons etc.) as I just want to focus on this one aspect. You're assuming you get the choice on whether this guy is a 'big fucking dude'. You're also assuming the woman is tiny and weak. You're also assuming being alone is a choice. Not that this is bad, but it's not objective and only caters to one eventuality. I agree about the realism it's gong for, hence the comparison of Mad Max v The Book of Eli.

Ultimately I'm not arsed if she is on her own, like you said it's a game. I have no problem with Lara being alone and having Jonah on the phone. I'm able to just not care I guess, or let it bother me. I just like parity in debates. I think it's naive to expect just having a male will offer more protection than a female by default. Having any partner for backup will be beneficial but at a potential cost of mobility, stealth and resources (variable cost model based on food intake etc.).

Put it into context a bit. Would you rather have this guy or this guy accompanying you over a female Judo expert or a female IDF member? Pound for pound a male will be physically more dominant but it reduces a thousand other considerations.

I think that's fair - do you understand where I'm coming from? I'm not reducing your point. Pound for pound and in your circumstance yes, you're probably correct. I'm just saying the circumstances are more complex and the outcome would not always lead to the same end decision?

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Yes, but that's based on traits not sex. I'm not going too deep into realism (guns, blunt weapons etc.) as I just want to focus on this one aspect. You're assuming you get the choice on whether this guy is a 'big fucking dude'. You're also assuming the woman is tiny and weak. You're also assuming being alone is a choice. Not that this is bad, but it's not objective and only caters to one eventuality. I agree about the realism it's gong for, hence the comparison of Mad Max v The Book of Eli.

Ultimately I'm not arsed if she is on her own, like you said it's a game. I have no problem with Lara being alone and having Jonah on the phone. I'm able to just not care I guess, or let it bother me. I just like parity in debates. I think it's naive to expect just having a male will offer more protection than a female by default. Having any partner for backup will be beneficial but at a potential cost of mobility, stealth and resources (variable cost model based on food intake etc.).

Put it into context a bit. Would you rather have this guy or this guy accompanying you over a female Judo expert or a female IDF member? Pound for pound a male will be physically more dominant but it reduces a thousand other considerations.

I think that's fair - do you understand where I'm coming from? I'm not reducing your point. Pound for pound and in your circumstance yes, you're probably correct. I'm just saying the circumstances are more complex and the outcome would not always lead to the same end decision?

no i get what you mean. the skill of an individual character in the world of the game they are in is ultimately what matters the most. and i 100 percent agree with you. games like tomb raider which is a game i love i can accept because its a really cool stylistic fastasy, if you get what i mean. in a game like this where it presents itself more realistically it in some ways does bring me out just because i know physically how lopsided somethings can be. i guess im just that way with entertainment in general. ive seen tv shows where guys are fighting and i have to turn away just because im like "that would never happen"

 

[Dunki]

no i get what you mean. the skill of an individual character in the world of the game they are in is ultimately what matters the most. and i 100 percent agree with you. games like tomb raider which is a game i love i can accept because its a really cool stylistic fastasy, if you get what i mean. in a game like this where it presents itself more realistically it in some ways does bring me out just because i know physically how lopsided somethings can be. i guess im just that way with entertainment in general. ive seen tv shows where guys are fighting and i have to turn away just because im like "that would never happen"

The thing I do not like about the new Tomb Raider is that Lara has just become a female Nathan Drake. Back then she had her own personality they did not use the same tropes of everything goes wrong, everything brakes etc it was its own. Mabye a little back like Angelina Jolie in the Old Tomb Raidr movies which for me was an absolute brilliant Lara Croft. She was a pure adrenlaine Junkie and every crazy shit she did in the movie was coherent with her character. Was it a stupid Movie? Yes of course but it also was very very entertaining and Lara had its own character. This one I just can not get into...

 

[5secondrulesucks]

The thing I do not like about the new Tomb Raider is that Lara has just become a female Nathan Drake. Back then she had her own personality they did not use the same tropes of everything goes wrong, everything brakes etc it was its own. Mabye a little back like Angelina Jolie in the Old Tomb Raidr movies which for me was an absolute brilliant Lara Croft. She was a pure adrenlaine Junkie and every crazy shit she did in the movie was coherent with her character. Was it a stupid Movie? Yes of course but it also was very very entertaining and Lara had its own character. This one I just can not get into...

im actually pretty stoked for the new tomb raider. the first trailer and a lot of the things they try and highlight is her just killing people but in the interviews and the demos they have been putting out they seem to really be going into the aspect of exploring temples and puzzles. i get for the media theyd show just action but the times in the two newer games where shes just searching through crypts are the best parts of those games and i think the people making the games know it.

 

[oagboghi2]

Yes lets post surveys and statistics.
http://www.theesa.com/about-esa/essential-facts-computer-video-game-industry/

Neilsen

From Nintendo's briefings you posted.

Your proof is one game? Is this the candy crush defense?

And no danhese007, women did not enlist to fight in WW2 and they didn't want to. There was no feminist surge demanding to join the front lines. Women weren't battering down recruitment offices demanding they be shipped off to Nomandy to be turned grinded under the war machine.

I know calling everyone and everything is like 'leftists 101' but historical fact just isn't on your side.

 

[zumphry]

Your proof is one game? Is this the candy crush defense?

And no danhese007, women did not enlist to fight in WW2 and they didn't want to. There was no feminist surge demanding to join the front lines. Women weren't battering down recruitment offices demanding they be shipped off to Nomandy to be turned grinded under the war machine.

I know calling everyone and everything is like 'leftists 101' but historical fact just isn't on your side.

Battlefield is a game where you can jump out of a plane you’re piloting, shoot someone out of the air, and then get back in to your plane.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

How does it feel?

Fake, contrived and forced like it is and as anyone who isn’t delusional can easily see as it’s all just pandering to a small but vocal contingent of internet moaners that will find something else to whine about in a few months times.

So in turn you whine about it. Got it.

Amazing how upset people are about this because honestly most videogames' stories aren't very well written at all to begin with. (There are certainly fantastic stories in games, but just looking at them as a whole.) And now that women are being featured it's turned into OH GAWD I CAN'T PLAY THIS GAME BECAUSE THERE'S A WOMIN IN IT!

Couldn't agree with the Battlefield people. Don't like it, don't buy it.

 

[ph33rknot]

feels super forced and like a fad there have been female leads before

 

[Dr. Claus]

Yea no. Developers should create as much shoddy diverse characters as they want, to fill whatever demographic, to appease whatever random person who whines. News flash, nobody is doing that, developers create what they want, some turn out good and others bad. You and most people who are complaining about people whining about diversity seem to not grasp the irony that you are actually the whiners. People want to be represented, good or bad. Society is filled with good, bad and whatever that is in between kind of stereotypes that is out there. I enjoy a bad movie as much as i enjoy a good movie. Being perfectly represented is not and has never been a criteria for people who want to be represented.

People just simply want to be represented. How hard is that to understand.

I am confused. So you want developers to push shoddy characters, shoddy narratives, and poor writing practices to appease the "ever-outraged" that will never be happy? All for the sake of "diversity"? I would suggest you go and watch the videos that were posted in this thread as it is quite apt for this conversation: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/the-...is-not-diverse-enough.1463093/#post-253302149.

Also, I am hardly "whining". A rather childish claim to make when we are simply having a conversation. However, you have gone on record to make largely disingenuous claims that anyone who disagrees with your view point (or those who are unhappy with moves/claims by DICE as an example) to be bigots, so I am not sure if you are ready to have a civil discussion on this.

 

[e0n]

I wanted to put this in perspective again.
So yes they do not even count games which both are the main protagonist lke in Odesssey for exampe. She does not want parity she wants fake outrage because then she can make more money and Sites like Polygon are full into this scam.

You need to learn how to read English or realize that by woman protagonists, they meant strictly female-led. The chart already include divisions of games where you play as one gender and ones where you can choose. The report already explains it. I tried to be explicit about it, but this is just making you look incredibly stupid for dragging this out. Provide evidence that the data isn't true. I don't care if you disagree with the conclusions or dislike the authors of the article.

 

[Dunki]

You need to learn how to read English or realize that by woman protagonists, they meant strictly female-led. The chart already include divisions of games where you play as one gender and ones where you can choose. The report already explains it. I tried to be explicit about it, but this is just making you look incredibly stupid for dragging this out. Provide evidence that the data isn't true. I don't care if you disagree with the conclusions or dislike the authors of the article.

I know exacty how she meant it. The quesion is why only female characters? Because it does fit her agenda. Also if you count actual games of these conferences she left out Indy games as well. As I said she was never for parity she was in there to make money.

 

[ph33rknot]

You guys complain too much. Oh no a game has a female lead, the horror, end of civilisation! I don't really understand why anyone is upset over a couple of gaming having a female lead. What's that thing people always like to counter with when women and minorities ask for characters that look like them? As long as it's fun what does it matter? If we're going to levy that line of argument against them, then we should abide by it ourselves.

same can be said for oh no there no female lead

 

[KonradLaw]

Yes lets post surveys and statistics.
http://www.theesa.com/about-esa/essential-facts-computer-video-game-industry/

I think the core thing about those stats is that they're for entire industry and people try to transplant them into AAA gaming, which doesn't work. Yes, half of gamers are women, but this doesn't mean that half of every big game's audience will be women. Women completely dominate casual games. They are also dominate in mobile gaming. On PC for example they're dominate adventure's genre audience, but you won't find many of them playing grognard wargames.

Feminist Frequency did their latest round up of E3 games and they had female-lead-only games in three times less numbers than male-lead-only ones and complained this stat doesn't change year by year. I think it doesn't change because that's how much the demand for female-leads is among big budgeted titles. Remember Mass Effect 3? When BioWare released stats on Femshep? 25% players picked Femshep. It's pretty much the same percentage that female-lead-only games had at E3. I don't think that's coincidence. I think that 20-somethign is how much of those games' audience might be female.

 

[lifa-cobex]

how in this day and age are people still listening to anita? to me thats the craziest part. she had her 15 minutes of fame and if youre still listening to her now there really is no helping you

It was fifteen minutes too long.
TBF to her, she's good at marketing. She's won't change anything about gaming. She's selling you an idea that should be put in gaming. If that idea is ever achieved, then she will develop a new idea to sell.
She struck a hot point in gaming community's at the right time.
Reminds me of a 80's business guy.

 

[ipukespiders]

War game franchise decides to shoehorn in women: "Hey, it's just a game"

Fighting game popularized for it's titillation scales back on the sex appeal: "We need to be more natural"

 

[TheShadowLord]

Sorry, confused by the wording of your first sentence as well as your last. What does 'ar' mean?

Anyways, what I think you are asking is that there are plenty of games with terribly written male characters, right? Well, yes there are and they are rated poorly for the terribly written characters. As an example, lets look at the God of War franchise. Kratos was a well written character in the first game that aped classical greek story telling and myth structure very well. The game was rated highly because of it, however as the games continued Kratos received very little to no substantial character growth and the games were soon rated more poorly because of it (though gameplay/world design tended to pick up the slack). Then we have God of War (2018), which offered a large dose of character progression for Kratos and was rated highly for it.

We should have good characters for the same of good characters. We do not need a character shoved into a particular slot to fill a checkbox or appease some random person who whines on the internet about the lack of "diversity" or "representation" of whatever they may be. It will never be enough for them, so developers should focus on creating strong characters that feel natural in the story they are trying to tell. Good writing is what we need. Quotas for diversity is what we don't.

Pardon, very tired so I may have misunderstood what you meant.

You have not misunderstood what I have said and I forgot to remove "ar?" when I was deleting some words in my previous post.

 

[Xilium]

My issues are more centered on the fact that;
1) They almost always fall into the same archetype, The Badass, which is already a very hit or miss archetype on male characters but made far worse on female characters because....
2) The developers of these games seem to be white knighting their own character by having to CONSTANTLY remind you that A) your character is a badass and B) that they're a female.

For instance, I'm so tired of the "but you're a chick" scene with a witty comeback, the "it's XXXX, we don't think that way anymore" scene, or the "hypeman" character that is regularly telling you amazing women (either your character and/or other women in the world) are. For me it's just, I can see that the character is a female, you don't have to keep telling me that and I'll decide whether or not they're a badass based on their actions.

Basically, it just comes off as the developers either trying to push their political agenda or trying to win good PR points rather than actually having a good idea or story for a female character. It just easy to tell when a character was created with a "I/we want to make a game with a female protagonist" vs. "I/we need to make a game with strong female protagonist". One is a passion project and the other is just trying to fill some arbitrary quota.

 

[Tmac]

Marvel tried it for a while and last i saw they were reversing that policy because their sales were going down.

 

[KiteGr]

Realistically speaking, women in real life are less likely to take on grand adventures, mowing down goons like they do in games and recent. In games they manage it for the same reason people there can take 20 bullets without dying. It's all about balancing and designing around game-play.

In real life, compared to men, women lack in strength, muscle buildup, stamina, intimidation and risk-taking, which makes sense if you think that generally men are designed by nature to be more expendable. If you think about it, the worship of the "Strong" and the "Hero" in literature and art through the civilized ages were pretty much propaganda to convince the, now self-thinking, males to go and die in some battle.
It's the hard truth of nature... as much as we cry for equality, nature is a bitch and doesn't care about that. I believe that, as we live in times of piece and technology improves, in the future it will be the men that will go through hard times, as the physical capabilities become less significant and their trouble making nature being frowned upon.
The worst part is that a man is much less likely to get inspired by strong woman than a man or the other way around, and games with strong women protagonists manage to sell mostly thanks to the good game-play and story.

On the other hand...
Games are not real life! The content is designed around the player's character, and the consequences of failure is not the player's death. It's the perfect and obvious opportunity for any woman (and man) to role play and/or compete to any power fantasy she (or he) wants. Having strong female characters might not inspire men, but it's a good opportunity to invest in some good gameplay and story, not mentioning catching the female demographic. And when those fail, there is always fan-service.

Please don't stone me!

 

[Sienna Fuegonasus]

women in real life are less likely to take on grand adventures

It's hard to take grand adventures when you're rising a kid.

 

[Dunki]

Realistically speaking, women in real life are less likely to take on grand adventures, mowing down goons like they do in games and recent. In games they manage it for the same reason people there can take 20 bullets without dying. It's all about balancing and designing around game-play.

In real life, compared to men, women lack in strength, muscle buildup, stamina, intimidation and risk-taking, which makes sense if you think that generally men are designed by nature to be more expendable. If you think about it, the worship of the "Strong" and the "Hero" in literature and art through the civilized ages were pretty much propaganda to convince the, now self-thinking, males to go and die in some battle.
It's the hard truth of nature... as much as we cry for equality, nature is a bitch and doesn't care about that. I believe that, as we live in times of piece and technology improves, in the future it will be the men that will go through hard times, as the physical capabilities become less significant and their trouble making nature being frowned upon.
The worst part is that a man is much less likely to get inspired by strong woman than a man or the other way around, and games with strong women protagonists manage to sell mostly thanks to the good game-play and story.

On the other hand...
Games are not real life! The content is designed around the player's character, and the consequences of failure is not the player's death. It's the perfect and obvious opportunity for any woman (and man) to role play and/or compete to any power fantasy she (or he) wants. Having strong female characters might not inspire men, but it's a good opportunity to invest in some good gameplay and story, not mentioning catching the female demographic. And when those fail, there is always fan-service.

Please don't stone me!

No one will stone you for an opinion.

To me this is an issue because I do not like the hypocrisy going around with it. For example: When people cry about how its not realistic that women wear high heels while fighting dragons or that the armor does not suit the dragon fight and then also argue how it is totally fine and realism does not matter for a game like Battlefield. Same with Journalists wanting Diversity but then getting pissed that Far Cry had women and black people as enemies. they only go what fits their current agenda there is no consistency at all. So if not for these people I would have not cared one bit to be honest.

Personally I think if you advocate a game to be more realistic you should be realistic if you do a fantasy game in a fantasy world everything is ok.

 

[LaughingStock]

Regarding BFV. I bet we'll see articles calling it a "feminicide simulator" or some other nonsense along those lines. It's never enough.

 

[Terce]

All due respect to both sides, why does it really matter? If you so desperately need a game to represent who you are as a person that you're actually getting angry when it doesn't, maybe you need to take a step back and consider a new hobby.

I look at a game like Rage 2 and think; This just doesn't look fun or engaging to me. I don't care what gender the protagonist is, or what color hair they have. Look at the game, the gameplay, and whether or not you'd enjoy spending time playing it. Try not politicizing one of the few remaining areas of our lives that haven't taken on this "us vs them" ideology.

It's just video games folks, relax.

 

[psn]

All due respect to both sides, why does it really matter? If you so desperately need a game to represent who you are as a person that you're actually getting angry when it doesn't, maybe you need to take a step back and consider a new hobby.

I look at a game like Rage 2 and think; This just doesn't look fun or engaging to me. I don't care what gender the protagonist is, or what color hair they have. Look at the game, the gameplay, and whether or not you'd enjoy spending time playing it. Try not politicizing one of the few remaining areas of our lives that haven't taken on this "us vs them" ideology.

It's just video games folks, relax.

Sure. But: If it is WW2, I want it to be authentic. You like it? No problem, go on and play it.
But I don't get why they pushed it in WW2. A new fictional conflict? Why not. If it is at least a bit authentic. I loved playing as Lara Croft as a kid, and still enjoy it. I loved playing as Ellie or several other women in games, like my character for GTA:O. A female soldier in Escape From Tarkov? Why not?

But in WW2? Well... It just feels like they want to force it upon us. And I don't like that tbh.

Battlefield is a game where you can jump out of a plane you’re piloting, shoot someone out of the air, and then get back in to your plane.

So maybe we should introduce unicorns to BF WW2 as well, because you can do unrealistic moves in BF. Legitimates everything.

 

[Vicetrailia]

The BFV reveal trailer was nice, too bad the actually gameplay is the same old.

 

[EDMIX]

how in this day and age are people still listening to anita? to me thats the craziest part. she had her 15 minutes of fame and if youre still listening to her now there really is no helping you

Agreed. Both my sisters game, heck THEY GOT ME INTO GAMING! She doesn't speak for my sisters. I 100% understand that gaming doesn't have much variety in terms of demographic, but that is not really an "issue. Even as a African American Male, I can 100% say that a game having a white dude is still up to the developer. That really isn't a "issue" because it is based on the artist themselves.

You know what could be an issue?

Is the publisher say NO WOMEN?

Is the artist wanting to do this and being stopped by anyone?

Threatened in anyway?

Those are issues and to my understanding, I don't really know of much to really happen in that respect. Even with publishers that wanted Life Is Strange to have the main character as a boy, guess what? It was also part of the publisher making it or breaking it ie based on if the team wanted to move forward.

https://www.destructoid.com/publishers-wanted-to-change-life-is-strange-leads-into-men-286035.phtml

Square was ok with what the game was, let the team keep their game intact and not change it to fit this narrative that many publishers seem to be stuck on, ie make it a guy and everyone will buy concept lol

So even if someone is making a game and they want publishing by a big publisher, they can simply find one that is ok with allowing their game to exist unchanged, even if it means with a white buff guy lol So as a Black male, I don't ask of developers to alter their games for me, simply that IF a developer has a game being made, for that developer to stick to their guns and find the right publisher that will give that creative freedom. I'm free to want games with more women, people of color, old people etc, I'm also free to make them myself.

 

[EDMIX]

All due respect to both sides, why does it really matter? If you so desperately need a game to represent who you are as a person that you're actually getting angry when it doesn't, maybe you need to take a step back and consider a new hobby.

I look at a game like Rage 2 and think; This just doesn't look fun or engaging to me. I don't care what gender the protagonist is, or what color hair they have. Look at the game, the gameplay, and whether or not you'd enjoy spending time playing it. Try not politicizing one of the few remaining areas of our lives that haven't taken on this "us vs them" ideology.

It's just video games folks, relax.

Exactly.

I like it when I see games like Mafia 3 and I'm like "Cool, a black guy, he look like me" lol but its not a make it or break it. It shouldn't even be that in the first place, if someone wants a game about a certain demographic, they are free to do it themselves.

Nothing wrong with wanting diversity in gaming with humans as it is more realistic considering many games are a reference of clearly earth, simply that if someone wants it bad enough, no one is really stopping any developer from doing it themselves. Kickstarter exist, they can self publish, they can go to a publisher known for allowing that type of creative freedom etc. Its not a "issue" where someone needs to keep making articles about and demanding and making it seem as if its some secret conspiracy. When I was in high school, we had a class that was for making comics and our teacher was showing us this history of comics and in one of them, a black person in a butler and he is operating the elevator, so our teacher tells us that because of time it was made, this was sorta normal to see. As I was making fun of it, she states "all jokes aside ,when you make your comic, you make it the way you want"

So people simply need to (ON BOTH SIDES FOLKS)

stop complaining about girls in games cause you think its "forced" or some "conspiracy"

Stop complaining about white males in games cause you think its "forced" or some "conspiracy"

Don't like certain demographics in games? Make your own game and do what you will. We can't simply get mad that someone viewed the world differently and then expressed it in their game. Its also their creative choice and their game.

 

[Darak]

It's just video games folks, relax.

Videogames are just videogames, movies are just movies, books are just books and newspapers are just newspapers. Culture is important, and that includes pop culture, because everything you read, watch or play has an influence on your character, even more so when you are a young adult, the main target for videogames.

Also, if videogames are so banal and unimportant, why did they have to change? It's unfair to accept the complaints of a certain political group, act on a strict following of those views, then ask people with opposing views to shut up.

Don't like certain demographics in games? Make your own game and do what you will.

Yes, do that, and get ostracized, harassed and persecuted by every mass media outlet. At this point, it may be the case that most of the forced tampering with modern videogames are not even sincere, it may be just about developers and publishers desperately trying to dodge the Vávra bullet.

 

[Sarah Rosario]

Dunno if they changed Joel, yet. I just hope he's not taking a total backseat. If they watered him down, I am not sure I will like it as much as the first. I liked them both as a team. I wouldn't mind if Ellie takes center stage, but I want my Joel game play too and I would like a fair amount of it as well, even being able to switch between the two, on the fly, would be very nice.

Lets hope for the best then

 

[Whitecrow]

Yea no. Developers should create as much shoddy diverse characters as they want, to fill whatever demographic, to appease whatever random person who whines. News flash, nobody is doing that, developers create what they want, some turn out good and others bad. You and most people who are complaining about people whining about diversity seem to not grasp the irony that you are actually the whiners. People want to be represented, good or bad. Society is filled with good, bad and whatever that is in between kind of stereotypes that is out there. I enjoy a bad movie as much as i enjoy a good movie. Being perfectly represented is not and has never been a criteria for people who want to be represented.

People just simply want to be represented. How hard is that to understand.

I preffer to say that people who cant move on on life because he/she is not represented in media, have a deeper problem than they might think. And I personally would never force society or anything/anyone to create a patch that aims to erradicate the symptom instead of the real problem.

 

[EDMIX]

Videogames are just videogames, movies are just movies, books are just books and newspapers are just newspapers. Culture is important, and that includes pop culture, because everything you read, watch or play has an influence on your character, even more so when you are a young adult, the main target for videogames.

Also, if videogames are so banal and unimportant, why did they have to change? It's unfair to accept the complaints of a certain political group, act on a strict following of those views, then ask people with opposing views to shut up.



Yes, do that, and get ostracized, harassed and persecuted by every mass media outlet. At this point, it may be the case that most of the forced tampering with modern videogames are not even sincere, it may be just about developers and publishers desperately trying to dodge the Vávra bullet.

"Yes, do that, and get ostracized "

And? Making art is not about popularity. If you are trying to find a way to please everyone, it can't be done. I don't get the point in this debate. SOME WILL ALWAYS HAVE HATE IN THEM, period!!!

You can't create your art around someone else that might hate it. Make what you want, move on. Stop begging for popularity. If you want someone done a certain way, no one is stopping you or anyone from making that type of game, cause right now you are not arguing about anyone stopping you, you are simply arguing about being "ostracized".

Well buddy, you can argue that about someone trying to make any game about anything so long as someone can hate it. Worry about making what you love, not about what someone who hates it might think. Someone will always hate. ie moot.

"harassed and persecuted by every mass media outlet" If this scares you regarding making art, you are in it for the wrong reasons and clearly don't get the point of art. I do what I love based on loving it, not based on if a "mass media outlet" will approve or not.

I don't create based on popularity and I don't recommend anyone do. If that scares you into not creating, you were not even an artist in the first place

 

[gypsygib]

Feels normal to me, the only weird thing is that each year female characters are progressively getting less and less good looking. The world and particularly entertainment is full of beautiful people, not sure why games can't have them without being called offensive. Particularly considering that most female game characters would be extremely fit, women that work out a lot are pretty curvy.

 

[KonradLaw]

Yeah, that mindset has always bothered me. Why does anyone only bring up women and non-white characters when they say "they have to be written well"? Last time I checked all characters should be written well, but for some reason we have to put special emphasis on the female and non-white characters in that regard. It would be like if someone watched a really generic slasher horror movie and said, "man, that black guy was clearly just there as token diversity, he had practically no characterization" when in the movie practically none of the characters had characterization. It's a bit of a double standard in my book.

I don't think female ones need to be written well, but with minorities it's not that easy. A badly written male white dude will just be a badly written white male dude. A badly written gay man, trans peron or black guy can be terribly offensive. Look at that homeless person in Deus Ex: Human Revolution for example. Or how badly written trans bits in Mass Effect: Andromeda were recieved. It wasn't straight white gamers who complained. Those games pissed off and offended the minorities.

 

[Chairman Tickles]

You can't please people who seek to be perpetually offended; some of whom even base their arbitrarily chosen sexual or skin tone identity around a persecution complex. It is best to ignore them-from a business perspective. Identity politics in business only gets in the way of business. This is a segment of the entertainment industry. The aim is to please as many as possible in return for as much profit as possible.

You might have certain moral obligations stemming from the myriad of artistic minds and niche markets involved, but broadly these moral boundaries should not keep willing individuals from consuming the kind of work you wish to make, nor should they force you to change your work. They should always remain selective, not imposed by a higher power.

Hypothetically speaking, as a self appointed activist, if you aren't seeking entertainment when delving in entertainment, then you're being an activist specifically to get in the way of everybody's entertainment. This is so rude. The vast majority will not like you or your industry allies.

 

[Jon Neu]

If they went and put a "Brienne of Tarth" like character, I'd be OK with it. A large, woman with a manly frame is much more believable. Or, if the small, petite woman fought in a different way - like an assassin, rather than a hoplite, I'd be OK with that.

Brienne of Tarth is a slow, clumsy, weak person. She is tall and nothing else.

Women are just genetically more much weaker, slow and clumsy than men. Have you ever watched the women soccer games? They are bad, like really really bad. And the same happens in every sport.

Videogames, as any other form of art, are based in reality. And in real life history, men are the ones that went on a quest looking/hunting for food, supplies, etc... Men are literally build for that, women don't, it's just genetics and evolution. How many times have you ever watched a woman in a situation of danger act calm and taking control of the situation? The reality is that naturally, women become nervous crying machines incapable of reacting when they are in a danger situation. That's why in most forms of art and fiction, the archetypical hero is a man, because it has always been like that since the dawn of mankind.

Of course this is fantasy and make pretend, so there aren't any boundaries of what you can put in a videogame. But let's continue to be honest here: all this trend of female "empowering" characters are just a result of certain identity politics, it's not an artistic motivation, but a political one. And they are giving it the wrong angle, you can't imply that a woman is the same as a man, because they are not. Women and men are different.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

^ i mean homeboy didnt put it subtly but it is the truth. as much as people hate it that really is the way things are in nature. even in just a man/woman relationship. if you have a woman running the show it doesnt end well.

 

[TannerDemoz]

Brienne of Tarth is a slow, clumsy, weak person. She is tall and nothing else.

Women are just genetically more much weaker, slow and clumsy than men. Have you ever watched the women soccer games? They are bad, like really really bad. And the same happens in every sport.

Videogames, as any other form of art, are based in reality. And in real life history, men are the ones that went on a quest looking/hunting for food, supplies, etc... Men are literally build for that, women don't, it's just genetics and evolution. How many times have you ever watched a woman in a situation of danger act calm and taking control of the situation? The reality is that naturally, women become nervous crying machines incapable of reacting when they are in a danger situation. That's why in most forms of art and fiction, the archetypical hero is a man, because it has always been like that since the dawn of mankind.

Of course this is fantasy and make pretend, so there aren't any boundaries of what you can put in a videogame. But let's continue to be honest here: all this trend of female "empowering" characters are just a result of certain identity politics, it's not an artistic motivation, but a political one. And they are giving it the wrong angle, you can't imply that a woman is the same as a man, because they are not. Women and men are different.

This is such an insane generalisation and sweeping statement across an entire sex. women become nervous crying machines incapable of reacting when they are in a dangerous situation? Are you raw?

 

[cormack12]

Couldn't really see where this fitted but didn't think it needed a new thread. Good piece by RobinGaming on the encompassing issues as a whole. While i can be applied broader, the ocntent maker specifically narrows down on Naughty Dog for this piece though. Be warned! It is fair, balanced- maybe a couple of points are grasped at but overall a decent piece - 20 mins long