Just have them co-op Knack 2 in one night.
Titled:
Friendship ruined! Ben and Huber play Knack
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Easy Allies |EZOT2| Love & Respect
- Thread starter Auctopus
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Just have them co-op Knack 2 in one night.
Titled:
Friendship ruined! Ben and Huber play Knack
Kyle's problems with Persona 5 actually make so much sense. You actually have to assume that you're the coolest kid and not even question it.
Never thought of it like that. I guess I liked that in the games they like the protagonist.
EDIT: A large part of Persona is wish fulfillment anyway. So making you seem amazing in every game. Heck, even in Persona 3 the MC is clearly an introvert with bad posture but everyone likes him.
Never thought of it like that. I guess I liked that in the games they like the protagonist.
EDIT: A large part of Persona is wish fulfillment anyway. So making you seem amazing in every game. Heck, even in Persona 3 the MC is clearly an introvert with bad posture but everyone likes him.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Another great Gundam stream. They're such a unique thing they do and I love it. You get glimpses of what they do in an office like aspect, Kyle opens up more on those streams than any other and watching model building progress is jolly
I got to learn the hoodie origins and they explored that a bit.
Kyle dropped P5 but enjoyed his time. He is also loving Nier Automata
And getting Ben gushing about Rocket Knight Adventures is a treat. His talking about revisiting it recently and loving it even more than as a kid is exactly what happened to me a couple years ago.
I got to learn the hoodie origins and they explored that a bit.
Kyle dropped P5 but enjoyed his time. He is also loving Nier Automata
And getting Ben gushing about Rocket Knight Adventures is a treat. His talking about revisiting it recently and loving it even more than as a kid is exactly what happened to me a couple years ago.
Grumplestiltskin
Member
Nintendo literally just released Zelda BoTW though and recently Pokémon. Not really seeing how they are lacking in single player games. Unless you mean new IP in which case I just don't see that happening in today's market given the rise of GAaS. It's possible sure but it makes sense that they'd be looking to increase their stable of online focused games with the popularity of such games in the market as well as their launching a paid online subscription on their newest HW. They want people to pay them play their games online so they need online games to get them to do that haha
Sad to hear this I was really hoping we would get a Frametrap with Brandon, Kyle and Ian giving their thoughts on the game as a whole as relative newcomers. I hope Brandon and Ian stick with it till the end but I'd be lying if I said Kyle's wasn't the opinion/thoughts I was most looking forward to.
I don't understand how Jones could see indies collaborating so they can fund their games as desperation. By that measure, the very act of having a crowdfunding is desperation. Or any sort of crossover promotion, I guess. Was Tekken dying without the Snopp Dogg collaboration? Mario Kart getting non Mario characters?
I'll just reiterate my thoughts on gift-giving as of the last time this topic came up in the thread. I generally enjoy seeing those segments in the group streams particularly how creative some people get with their gifts. I especially enjoy those ones that end up leading to extra EZA content even if they are just straight up gifts. So things like the Gunpla leading to the amateur gundam streams (something I never thought I needed in my life until I got them) or DarkKnight's gift challenges leading to things like Jones' obliteration in Goldeneye.
The community gift projectss are cool, but, yeah, the instructions that came with that latest one were a little much. I was starting to cringe during that segment if I'm honest.
The community gift projectss are cool, but, yeah, the instructions that came with that latest one were a little much. I was starting to cringe during that segment if I'm honest.
Ultimadrago
Member
Have a general timestamp where he talks about it? I was looking forward to his full impressions, but I guess not anymore! I'd still like to hear what he made of what he played.
Edit: Nevermind! I found it at around 24:00
Roberto Larcos
Member
I agree with arcon.
A gift is "a voluntary transfer of property made without consideration." (Jowitt, 2015)
I've personally stopped watching the gift segments, because too many aren't gifts. It feels slimy. "I've 'given' you this thing, now do as I say." Gifting is fine, but I think people are seeing it as a cheap and easy way to become a producer, get the piece of content made that you want to be made. That's not a gift, it's a payment dressed up as a gift.
Honestly, fuck that noise. Let the guys do what they want. It's getting out of hand as it is - and I can't imagine it's an area where the community will regulate themselves. Gifts should come with no content-producing strings attached. If this means fewer gifts, or less extravagant shit, so be it, frankly.
A gift is "a voluntary transfer of property made without consideration." (Jowitt, 2015)
I've personally stopped watching the gift segments, because too many aren't gifts. It feels slimy. "I've 'given' you this thing, now do as I say." Gifting is fine, but I think people are seeing it as a cheap and easy way to become a producer, get the piece of content made that you want to be made. That's not a gift, it's a payment dressed up as a gift.
Honestly, fuck that noise. Let the guys do what they want. It's getting out of hand as it is - and I can't imagine it's an area where the community will regulate themselves. Gifts should come with no content-producing strings attached. If this means fewer gifts, or less extravagant shit, so be it, frankly.
plasmawave
Banned
Kyle dropped P5 because the main protagonist was too cool lol.
Mikey Jr.
Member
Wait, seriously?
Yup. Just go to the timestamp in Ultimadrago's post & he gets in depth about why specifically.
I don't necessarily sympathize/agree with his reasoning at all, but his reason is his reason & I respect it in the end.
I just really love Persona 5 lol
I think it's a little more than that. I think Kyle's trying to make the point that the character has no flaws, he's just "too cool" and the only 'flaw' he really has is his origin story that people at school whisper behind his back about, which isn't really a flaw.
I agree with him to a point. This is my first Persona and if I'm honest, I don't see the PC as an actual character but more so an extension of the player.
It's certainly not an issue id stop playing the game over but if Kyle feels like he's got his worth out of the game (
Kamoshida's Arc
Primethius
Banned
To bounce off the Kyle/P5 talk:
It's always been a weakness of the Persona series that the main character isn't made in a character creator but has about the depth and character of one (e.g. little to none). And 5 really tried to do something with the MC's origin but... it's largely non-existent.
That's probably the thing I want most from a Persona 6. Where the MC is a character within the game rather than a blank slate. I think it's probably the right way to move the series forward as it would help evolve confidants/social links too which are largely a one-way street right now in terms of character interaction/development.
It's always been a weakness of the Persona series that the main character isn't made in a character creator but has about the depth and character of one (e.g. little to none). And 5 really tried to do something with the MC's origin but... it's largely non-existent.
That's probably the thing I want most from a Persona 6. Where the MC is a character within the game rather than a blank slate. I think it's probably the right way to move the series forward as it would help evolve confidants/social links too which are largely a one-way street right now in terms of character interaction/development.
Grumplestiltskin
Member
What video is Kyle's Persona 5 talk in? I'd like to give it a listen.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
I agree. It's weird having all these great characters around and my guy that barely talks is being idolized by them.
Ultimadrago
Member
Gundam Build Stream
It's not much to go off of. To add my own thoughts, I hear out Auctopus' theory on it. I find it funny though that as much as I like Kyle's thoughts on the game industry and elements, as in The Final Bosman. I really hate to hear his thoughts on games to an extent (and no this isn't a "He doesn't like what I like." thing). From items like to A Link to the Past, loving Sonic Unleashed or this, he says some of the darnest things. I still love his presence dearly though.
And I do understand where he comes from with not gelling on the backstory or purpose of your main character in context with setting up the story. I could see it creating a disconnect. As Ben stated, we needed a statement on the game that only Kyle could give. I don't agree with it, but I can leave it at that. He has said much crazier things, in any case.
Primethius
Banned
Yep.
Edit: What bothers me about having a blank slate character in Persona is that it isn't your typical Skyrim/Fallout game with multiple endings and choices. There's a true ending sure but it's all about telling one complete story. I think having the MC be a real character would be a huge improvement for P6.
Ultimadrago
Member
Yes in that he isn't fully voiced. He has a voice and will say small phrases or Persona names during summons, but for all purposes: still silent.
Merchandise
Member
Playing Nier: Automata because everybody says it's just the best
game just froze, 30 minutes of progress lost
game just froze, 30 minutes of progress lost
IdreamofHIME
Member
LiquidSolid
Member
Yeah, I think the duels are kinda similar but they lack the self-indulgence and obnoxiousness that makes those "dance for me, monkey, dance!" suck the fun out of the stream.
Another thing about that big gift I wasn't a fan of was that note that said "I messed this one up, so give it to Damiani or something". It was a joke and Damiani probably took it that way but it still came off pretty dickish to me.
Yeah, that's basically every silent protagonist in a JRPG. I'm not a fan of silent protagonists but it's kinda weird to see Kyle criticise it for that when he loves Pokemon so much.
I can agree with his criticism of Morgana though, he's a creeper.
P5MC is his own character too. They made a big effort in that compared to P4. There are interview bits where Hashino talks about his personality.
You can 100% feel it if you play the different games. The way P3MC walks tells a lot about his character for example.
Protagonists in Pokémon have 0 personality. Anything that you're acknowledged for in the games is after you yourself defeat Gyms or collect new Pokémon. Heck, when Red is characterized in GSC, BW2, SM he has no personality and is silent.
Pokémon is more of a game where there's no external personality for your silent protagonist. It honestly can't even be compared.
Moon Presence
Member
I don't understand this kind of behaviour with any game, tbh. "Oh, I don't like/relate to this guy so I won't play this game anymore." There are almost an ocean of reasons why you would stop playing a game like Persona, that isn't one of them.
The transition to the podcast halftime was pure gold. And Huber nailed it this week, I think we can all relate to it.
plasmawave
Banned
Kyle wasn't going to play P5 anyways before Huber implored him to, so at least that's something.
Moon Presence
Member
Yeah, I guess you're right. But it's such a great game, I bet he would end up loving it if he gave it a real chance. Who knows, maybe in the future he'll dive into it again. It seems every game is being released now and that certainly doesn't help, lol.
They barely talk so they might as well be.
Elfforkusu
Member
Why not? If any story can't sell me on why I care about the main cast, that story can eff off. In some games, story isn't as important, but Persona -- as a JRPG -- clearly isn't one of those games.
(I still haven't played and am not sure if I will, so consider this all hypothetical)
Brian_FETO
Banned
This podcast is so good
Uno Venova
Banned
This isn't even a complaint because I don't really care, but the text conversations are the worst with this
everyone's having these deep conversations and all I say is a variance of "It'll be okay" and everyone's fawning over my insight. I offer nothing of substance lol.
Mediking
Member
Dunno what's worse... realizing that Daimiani is actually in that group of super high taste Nintendo fans that takes so much to please (to hell with Arms, Splatoon 2, just gimme Metroid and Mario Oddy... like really, dude?) or Kyle Bosman dropping Persona 5 (which isn't that big of deal but still...)?
Kyle reason
[noun]
Ky·le rea·son
A line of thinking to like or dislike an aspect or aspects of something from a unique and very specific point of view that somehow still makes sense when you really think about it. Often applied to narrative or lore based elements of storytelling.
[noun]
Ky·le rea·son
A line of thinking to like or dislike an aspect or aspects of something from a unique and very specific point of view that somehow still makes sense when you really think about it. Often applied to narrative or lore based elements of storytelling.
TheCowboyPoet
Member
I don't know about "Daimiani" but I can relate, Arms looks like hot trash and Splatoon 1 wasn't that interesting. Dropping Persona 5 is fine if he doesn't like it, I dropped Persona 4 Golden.
Yeah the silent, mute but oddily very detailed protagonist in Persona 5 is something that bugs me alot too.
I get it that they want the players to connect through him more (just like Link in TLoZ), and it was fine to me in the previous games, but this time is really jarring.
The cutscenes are more complex, the characters becomes more expressive and even the protagonist himself has some voiced lines, as well as his own thoughts, yet he remains muted. And then all the important moments with the party taking decisions or connecting the dots, it seems like it's all their work and he's done nothing because they only talk between them.
The moment that made it ridiculous to me is when (very early game spoiler)
C'mon Atlus, is it too much effort to have him voiced, since he basically already has a proper personality?
I get it in DQXI, because those are games made to be reminding of past games.
Anyway, hope he keeps playing NieR, i'd love to see him going through Route C.
I get it that they want the players to connect through him more (just like Link in TLoZ), and it was fine to me in the previous games, but this time is really jarring.
The cutscenes are more complex, the characters becomes more expressive and even the protagonist himself has some voiced lines, as well as his own thoughts, yet he remains muted. And then all the important moments with the party taking decisions or connecting the dots, it seems like it's all their work and he's done nothing because they only talk between them.
The moment that made it ridiculous to me is when (very early game spoiler)
the MC takes Ann to the diner to talk about Shiho and Kamoshida, she starts crying asking what can she do, and all that comes out of his mouth is "Heh...".
I get it in DQXI, because those are games made to be reminding of past games.
Anyway, hope he keeps playing NieR, i'd love to see him going through Route C.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
In defense of Kyle, i've discovered over the years that there is a very thin line between enjoying a game and not liking a game, its very easy for a game to do something that bothers you and keeps you from enjoying a game.
It's extremely difficult for a game to do everything right and to keep millions of different players interested in their game, because every gamer is different. Breathe of the Wild is the most critically acclaimed game of all time, i only beat it because its a Zelda game, i barely enjoyed any of my 40 hours with it because almost everything about it drives me crazy.
The stamina bar, the weapon durability, the inventory limits, the temperature systems, the weather system, the lack of focus on dungeons, the way horses dont follow you if you climb something, all of it. That's just the way my brain works, its not my fault and its not Nintendos fault, its just the way it is. Same thing happened with Kyle here, he's looking for something specific from a game and P5 didnt do it for him and did things that bothered him. Probably doesnt help that he's got a backlog so he's thinking about other games. Huber has a nice Sydrome about this.
It's extremely difficult for a game to do everything right and to keep millions of different players interested in their game, because every gamer is different. Breathe of the Wild is the most critically acclaimed game of all time, i only beat it because its a Zelda game, i barely enjoyed any of my 40 hours with it because almost everything about it drives me crazy.
The stamina bar, the weapon durability, the inventory limits, the temperature systems, the weather system, the lack of focus on dungeons, the way horses dont follow you if you climb something, all of it. That's just the way my brain works, its not my fault and its not Nintendos fault, its just the way it is. Same thing happened with Kyle here, he's looking for something specific from a game and P5 didnt do it for him and did things that bothered him. Probably doesnt help that he's got a backlog so he's thinking about other games. Huber has a nice Sydrome about this.
Just want to say welcome! And thanks for your support to EZA, you are awesome!
And nobody would had been excited for Horizon if not PS exclusive, tired open world formula, from studio with average output? Didn't stop people from hyping it up. And when some Allies were cautious with it before release, they got called out "why aren't you excited, why are you so negative!"
Edit: Not to say that Horizon didn't turn out to be a great game. But there's just as much chance (if not more) for Arms being too.
Edit 2: Personally not really that excited about Arms, but not because the game seems bad. I just also prefer singleplayer over multiplayer, but still enjoy some multiplayer on the side. I would get Horizon over Arms if given a chance.
Very often I see comments about how people don't want to play God of War because of Kratos's character. He is seen as a brute and a maniac, which I think he is. But that doesn't push me away from the game, I understand if someone else feels differently.
Hell, there's been similar comments about Geralt on Witcher too, that he is dull and emotionless. Or that he is basically "too cool" since women seem to fall all over him. So people don't want to play the game because they can't relate or just don't like that type of character. I could point out to them how they are wrong by examples from story beats and dialogue in the game. But usually that wouldn't work, it would be dismissed because the person has already made their own mind by their own experience and interpretation.
i wasnt interested in ARMS at all until i watched that tournament that was posted here a few days ago. seems to have a fair amount of depth to the combat, whether its the specifics of the character you pick, the combinations of attachments you can wield, or the use of movement to navigate the stages. like, i thought it was just gonna be a high res wiisports boxing. but it struck me as more like a super polished nintendo version of for honor.
https://youtu.be/vkU_6ICKAL4?t=2465
honestly dont know why they arent show more competitive style play like in this tournament. honestly it looks fucking fun. it still has so many unanswered questions about it though. and it could really turn out shit. but i am at least interested in it now lol
https://youtu.be/vkU_6ICKAL4?t=2465
honestly dont know why they arent show more competitive style play like in this tournament. honestly it looks fucking fun. it still has so many unanswered questions about it though. and it could really turn out shit. but i am at least interested in it now lol
TheDarkKnight774
Member
So at the end of the BvW stream Kyle revealed what it was. Earlier that day (Tues) they recorded an episode of Friend code but that crew being unfamiliar with the new mixer did the whole episode and had no audio recorded. So it's a lost episode. And now they record a new episode for Friend code today. But Kyle mentioned it'll be new topics so the conversation will be fresh
I don't see why. I'm not that interested in Splatoon 2 (didn't play the original) or Arms. They look like more multiplayer-focused games which is fine but not something I'm really into with certain exceptions. I prefer things like Zelda, the new Mario and yeah, a new singleplayer-focused Metroid would be lovely. It's probably why I haven't picked up a Switch yet. Hopefully there's good news at E3 on that front.
I don't think that means I'm hard to please and I don't see why that should apply to Damiani either.
I would love the same care and attention lavished on Arms and Splatoon, given to a new singleplayer IP from Nintendo.
After reading that Persona 4G is gross thread, latest Frame Trap with Ian and that little bit of discussion in that Gundam stream, I really want to hear Allies tackle these issues a bit more. In Frame Trap and stream the discussion was cut a bit short and wasn't really specific because of spoilers.
I've heard Ben and few of the Allies talk about the games so much over the years, so it includes Gametrailers too. But not once I've heard them discuss that there is some really questionable content in these games, before Ian did it. So reading that Persona thread really took me by surprise.
I hope they aren't purposefully avoiding talking (and maybe even condemning some) these things so they wouldn't upset part of their fanbase. And this isn't really a Persona specific, but overall. I liked when they briefly talked about Shantae and it's sexualization. But this is a big and complex issue and I feel they really haven't covered that so well yet. And the same goes for any minority representation in games. I do want to give credit to Ian though, but often it feels like it's just him sharing his thoughts on these things and never fully develops into actual discussion.
EZA is about Love & Respect, why not explore a bit how and when games show Love & Respect to underrepresented people and when that L & R is violated.
I've heard Ben and few of the Allies talk about the games so much over the years, so it includes Gametrailers too. But not once I've heard them discuss that there is some really questionable content in these games, before Ian did it. So reading that Persona thread really took me by surprise.
I hope they aren't purposefully avoiding talking (and maybe even condemning some) these things so they wouldn't upset part of their fanbase. And this isn't really a Persona specific, but overall. I liked when they briefly talked about Shantae and it's sexualization. But this is a big and complex issue and I feel they really haven't covered that so well yet. And the same goes for any minority representation in games. I do want to give credit to Ian though, but often it feels like it's just him sharing his thoughts on these things and never fully develops into actual discussion.
EZA is about Love & Respect, why not explore a bit how and when games show Love & Respect to underrepresented people and when that L & R is violated.
I think that sort of discussion needs to be structured appropriately and therefore doesn't belong on Frametrap unless it's an actual talking topic - e.g. The excellent Frametrap about Palmer Luckey's sketchy associations.
Further, I think regarding Persona 5, those sort of topics can't be tackled until all participating Allies have finished the game as the characters seem to be developed over the story. I'm not saying that's an excuse in anyway because one of the sequences that made me uncomfortable in Persona 5 has yet to develop the character it involved in the 30 hours following.
Nevertheless, I feel it was the right decision to cut off the conversation in the last Frametrap. The topic is expansive and delicate with several involving factors such as localisation/translation, culture and writing quality. Free styling the conversation in a "What has Ian been playing?" segment isn't quite the right place for a healthy discussion.
Further, I think regarding Persona 5, those sort of topics can't be tackled until all participating Allies have finished the game as the characters seem to be developed over the story. I'm not saying that's an excuse in anyway because one of the sequences that made me uncomfortable in Persona 5 has yet to develop the character it involved in the 30 hours following.
Nevertheless, I feel it was the right decision to cut off the conversation in the last Frametrap. The topic is expansive and delicate with several involving factors such as localisation/translation, culture and writing quality. Free styling the conversation in a "What has Ian been playing?" segment isn't quite the right place for a healthy discussion.
I don't think I disagree with anything you said. Much of what you said is why I want them to give actual time to these topics and not just mention them and move on. If there's a Persona 5 spoiler cast, there they could talk about these issues freely too. Especially since these things seem to contradict the themes and story of the game, there's a dissonance people say.
I also want to mention that I'm aware of Allies showing support to women during Women's march and also to Muslims because of that Trump set ban. This is all good and I'm glad they've done it. But especially after Gamergate and what has followed, these gaming related topics are constantly discussed but not that much by the crew. They have called out bigotry like in that Palmer Luckey case, but not that much when it's about content of games.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think for DQ it's just that appealing to nostalgia. I think part of it are the vibes a game sets can make certain ways of characterization or lack of it go over better or worse.
For DQ the characters are generally whimsical and the general vibe is drifting more towards fairy tale(?) hope that kind of makes sense despite it not being quite the correct descriptor for what I think I mean. Having the role of a more passive observing protagonist jives better with that at least I never was really all that bothered by this approach for the DQ games.
The same way that Bravely Defaults characters not having a ton of depth and are very upfront with what they are works well in the type of story it tells.
For Persona especially 5 with a lot of the surrounding elements maturing and the type of story it tries to tell I definitely think the somewhat silent protagonist with a very subdued personality doesn't work as well. So I think I'm also more in the camp that thinks just playing the role of an even more defined character in future Persona games would be less detracting than what we got now.
LiquidSolid
Member
Pokemon protagonists do have a little personality, in their animations, their actions in the world, etc. It might not be much but it's personality nonetheless. P5's MC has more personality than that but he's still very much a silent protagonist, far closer to Pokemon than a Final Fantasy.
Man, Gundam streams are something else, they're like 4 hours of comedy improv and random shit.
Probably the most hilarious of them all.
I need a CD with all the songs they sing, like I Play By Myself.
I'd say that i 100% agree, but in recent voice acted DQ games like VIII and (by the looks of it) XI the protagonist is almost the focal point of the plot, it's not that much of a passive observer. Still, i agree on the fact that silent protagonists push the fairy tale-ish feel much more (just like Zelda).
Probably the most hilarious of them all.
I need a CD with all the songs they sing, like I Play By Myself.
I'd say that i 100% agree, but in recent voice acted DQ games like VIII and (by the looks of it) XI the protagonist is almost the focal point of the plot, it's not that much of a passive observer. Still, i agree on the fact that silent protagonists push the fairy tale-ish feel much more (just like Zelda).
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