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Epic Games calls PS5 a "masterpiece of systems design"

May 8, 2020
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Kinda funny how the word "masterpiece" has become common in gaming lingo. A lot of that has to do with Colin and Craig calling games like Uncharted 2 and TLOU masterpieces (which they're) in their reviews. It took off then from a term barely used within the community.
 
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itsjustJEFF

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Apr 12, 2018
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If it isn't a marketing deal then why not show the same UE5 demo on other platforms? They admit it will run fine on the new Xbox and using a current PC isn't going to subject them to NDAs. So why not show it if there is no financial benefit? Or why not release the data streaming numbers to show the advantage of the PS5 I/O? Sony already told everybody what the SSD is capable of so it's not like they are letting the cat out of the bag.
Why would anyone pay for a marketing deal with a 3rd party engine that will be on every single platform? Why would EPIC need money from a marketing deal? They have one of the biggest MONEY making games, they have a very profitable store and are buying up exclusives for said store. They're not desperate for money. Also, like you said they already said it'll run on all other platforms. Why do you NEED to see it running on another platform? You know the Series X is powerful enough to run it. No one is denying that the Series X is more Powerful.

YOUR REAL issue is that you need proof, so you can THROW that information at "The other side" during your "Arguments" about the next gen consoles. It freaking kills you that the other fanboys have this demo. You really just want that video so you can say "Ha, we have it too. We can do that too. I told you" That's the ONLY REASON why any EPIC statement thread is such a firestorm of SHIT POSTS. Because Fanboys cannot, will not, allow ANYTHING positive to be said about the competing console.

I'm so AMAZED at how invested some gamer are in their console of choice. It really does become part of your Identity and ego. If it MATTERS to you that much, go freaking start a Change.Org where you petition EPIC to show the demo running on an Xbox :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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bohrdom

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Mar 19, 2020
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The inferior I/O will bottleneck the SSD speeds on the XSX, Similar to installing a SSD in a PS4
You've pretty much hit the point that alot of gaffers/non-technical people don't understand. Systems today are really bandwidth limited. What really slows a system (Xbox, PS, PC) down is moving data from memory to compute. The more compute you have, the more data it needs for the system to run at its fullest potential.

I'm fairly sure both systems will have phenomenal looking games but in terms of system design it seems like PS5 does have the upper hand.
 

PaintTinJr

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Jan 30, 2020
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If it isn't a marketing deal then why not show the same UE5 demo on other platforms? They admit it will run fine on the new Xbox and using a current PC isn't going to subject them to NDAs. So why not show it if there is no financial benefit? Or why not release the data streaming numbers to show the advantage of the PS5 I/O? Sony already told everybody what the SSD is capable of so it's not like they are letting the cat out of the bag.
I suspect because they want their fledgling software solution to survive and influence hardware companies in the PC space to get their head out of their backside - mostly Intel - to make the same hardware leap.

Releasing on PC now, will just result in those with a vested interest in the status quo finding other ways to appear to do the same thing, and the crappy I/O setup of the PC will remain as is. Whereas once the PS5 has released it is too late for those in the PC space to sit on their hands, because the UE5 demo isn't how things will eventually look. PS5 games will look like that, plus the fixed path RT and rasterization capabilities of the PS5 too - because the UE5 demo is hardly touching the conventional performance of the GPU, lumen and nanite are apparently all software running on the GPU's async compute cores and taxing the PS5's I/O complex, with just the moving objects rendered traditionally.
 
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Elog

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Aug 28, 2016
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High resolution textures have been a thing for years already. I don't once remember reading that an SSD was needed for them.
Without comparing the two next-generation consoles, this topic is interesting. I believe that most gamers do not realize how VRAM limited the current games are.

The fundamental question we all should ask ourselves is one I have written before on this forum:

"Why would Avatar rendered at 1080p blow any 4K game out of the water in the visuals department?"

There are of course differences in how light and shadows are rendered etc, but the key difference is number of textures used and resolution of said textures. A single creature in Avatar uses around 100 textures at maximum resolution, i.e. any scene uses 1000's of textures at max resolution or in other words an uncompressed texture budget (=VRAM budget) way north of 100 GB.

The PC architecture is severely limited in VRAM capacity and hence (# of textures)*(texture memory size). While we can increase the texture memory size when upscaling a game, the current PC architecture has already imposed a limit on # of textures used so that the lower-end systems can play the game.

This is the one of the true generational leaps with the next generation of consoles and this is mainly driven by I/O and not TFlops in itself.

Edit: Or in other words. With a very advanced geometry engine piece plus high capacity I/O system to expand the VRAM budget you will change how games will look to a significant degree without touching the TFlops piece of the equation. This is what the UE5 demo did (among other things).
 
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NoMoChokeSJ

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Jun 3, 2014
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Why would anyone pay for a marketing deal with a 3rd party engine that will be on every single platform? Why would EPIC need money from a marketing deal? They have one of the biggest MONEY making games, they have a very profitable store and are buying up exclusives for said store. They're not desperate for money. Also, like you said they already said it'll run on all other platforms. Why do you NEED to see it running on another platform? You know the Series X is powerful enough to run it. No one is denying that the Series X is more Powerful.

YOUR REAL issue is that you need proof, so you can THROW that information at "The other side" during your "Arguments" about the next gen consoles. It freaking kills you that the other fanboys have this demo. You really just want that video so you can say "Ha, we have it too. We can do that too. I told you" That's the ONLY REASON why any EPIC statement thread is such a firestorm of SHIT POSTS. Because Fanboys cannot, will not, allow ANYTHING positive to be said about the competing console.

I'm so AMAZED at how invested some gamer are in their console of choice. It really does become part of your Identity and ego. If it MATTERS to you that much, go freaking start a Change.Org where you petition EPIC to show the demo running on an Xbox :messenger_tears_of_joy:
So you go on a tirade and I'm the invested one? Lol. An xbox 1s, an xbox 1x, ps4 pro, 3 Switch Lites and a gaming PC are what I own. I am not invested in 1 platform so you can go ahead tone it down. Next gen I'll buy them all again as well. If anybody is on the defensive about their console of choice it would be you.

Secondly you think EPIC doesn't do marketing deals? Lol. Really? So you must think that companies like Rockstar or EA must do exclusive content out of the kindness of their hearts. Or that the Call of Duty commercials that have the PS logo at the end of them (even though they are on every console and PC) must be because Sony is their friend. They all do marketing deals, money is money.

Finally, there is zero reason for EPIC to not show their UE5 demo on other platforms, especially as you say it will be on every single platform. The fact that they aren't is telling. The fact that they are praising a console instead of promoting their engine is also telling.
 
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PresetError

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Jun 23, 2020
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Love all these devs coming to rescue the PS5
I hardly doubt the PS5 is going to need rescuing. Playstation is such a consolidated brand for 25 years that its market share is theirs to lose. Xbox will struggle to snag a significant portion of Playstation users away from that ecosystem.

What I don't expect is the current generation ratio of PS4's to Xbox One's sold repeating itself because it was abnormal from the start.
 
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6 pages already, part of me wants to know what could possibly be discussed in those 6 pages... the rest of me says this thread is probably the worst
 
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gow3isben

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let the games do the talking.

Because for now, I don't see any games at Hellblade 2 or UE5 level.

Agreed about the UE5 level. We won't see good shit like that for a few years and with linear games only.

The Hellblade stuff was without gameplay though breh. And you really think Gilderoy Lockhart will let the actual game look that good?
 
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rapid32.5

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I can only assume Epic knows how much PS5 is gonna cost and they love the price. All the tech wonder bs we hear every gen, maybe this time Sony can surprise us again with $399. Those SSD peripherals for next gen systems will cost $200 anyway, so an average user with be euphoric for barebones announcement.
 
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PresetError

Neo Member
Jun 23, 2020
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Agreed about the UE5 level. We won't see good shit like that for a few years and with linear games only.

The Hellblade stuff was without gameplay though breh.
I really don't understand why people has collectively decided they have seen Hellblade 2. The one trailer they showed was so obviously the concept trailer of a game years away from releasing...
 
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LeVictorien

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Apr 11, 2020
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I hardly doubt the PS5 is going to need rescuing. Playstation is such a consolidated brand for 25 years that its market share is theirs to lose. Xbox will struggle to snag a significant portion of Playstation users away from that ecosystem.

What I don't expect is the current generation ratio of PS4's to Xbox One's sold repeating itself because it was abnormal from the start.
Every week someone has to come and put PS5 on this pedestal where only PS5 can stand lmao but every months someone at Xbox says something in favor of Xbox and then commence days of entertainment.

I also think Xbox will never surpass Playstation, I think next gen will be closer though.
 

itsjustJEFF

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So you go on a tirade and I'm the invested one? Lol. An xbox 1s, an xbox 1x, ps4 pro, 3 Switch Lites and a gaming PC are what I own. I am not invested in 1 platform so you can go ahead tone it down. Next gen I'll buy them all again as well. If anybody is on the defensive about their console of choice it would be you.

Secondly you think EPIC doesn't do marketing deals? Lol. Really? So you must think that companies like Rockstar or EA must do exclusive content out of the kindness of their hearts. Or that the Call of Duty commercials that have the PS logo at the end of them (even though they are on every console and PC) must be because Sony is their friend. They all do marketing deals, money is money.

Finally, there is zero reason for EPIC to not show their UE5 demo on other platforms, especially as you say it will be on every single platform. The fact that they aren't is telling. The fact that they are praising a console instead of promoting their engine is also telling.
Tirade, you mean like the rest of your posts in this thread? My original post was about what Epic was talking about, their architecture. You on the other hand, went back to the tired old fanboy argument, where is this demo on Series X? This is a thread about the architecture of the PS5 and how they like it. Just cause you have all those platforms doesn't make you "the most impartial." Having all the platforms doesn't make your opinion more valid.

The deals with Rockstar, EA, and COD deals are over games. Those deals are known as marketing deals, it's public knowledge. No one has ever denied that they were deals. But all of a sudden, this PS/Epic deal is a BIG SECRET. Tim Sweeney himself said there is no deal... but that' not good enough, it's has to be a lie. They have to be lying. They have to be.

The engine could be nearly a year away, they could still be working on it. That's a very big possibility.
 
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Gamernyc78

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Jun 11, 2018
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You're the one bullshitting. There are endless threads, including the xbox architecture thread where many, many people claim that the UE5 demo would not be able to be replicated at the same quality on the new xbox. You admit it yourself by speculating that the assests would be lesser, so claiming otherwise is foolish. If epic released the data numbers streamed by the system the debate would be solved. Also, I have no reason for an agenda as I'll own both systems just as I do this generation., So next time you throw out cult claims you may want to kick off your owm purple jumpsuit and nikes before you do it.
I'm dead pimp I hear u pseudo analyst. Dudes like u be cappin. I can't lol
 
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NoMoChokeSJ

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Tirade, you mean like the rest of your posts in this thread? My original post was about what Epic was talking about, their architecture. You on the other hand, went back to the tired old fanboy argument, where is this demo on Series X? This is a thread about the architecture of the PS5 and how they like it. Just cause you have all those platforms doesn't make you "the most impartial." Having all the platforms doesn't make your opinion more valid.

The deals with Rockstar, EA, and COD deals are over games. Those deals are known as marketing deals, it's public knowledge. No one has ever denied that they were deals. But all of a sudden, this PS/Epic deal is a BIG SECRET. Tim Sweeney himself said there is no deal... but that' not good enough, it's has to be a lie. They have to be lying. They have to be.

The engine could be nearly a year away, they could still be working on it. That's a very big possibility.
Which of my posts have been a tirade? My "fanboy argument" is why not release the I/O statistics if it isn't a marketing issue? This has a bigger potential to bolster the claims of the huge benefits of the SSD architecture that the PS5 has more than hurt it... Unless it isn't as big of a factor as some think. The fact that they are secretive about it seems suspect.

As for Sweeney saying it there isn't a deal. Somebody earlier posted a video where he said that the PS3 was easy to develop for. Was he telling the truth there too?

You are right. Having all the platforms doesn't make my opinion more valid. But the fact that I'm going to invest in every system makes me willing to look past the PR speak.
 
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Jack Peterson

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The UE5 demo probably would've run flawlessly on Series X, but at 1800p instead of 1440p. I highly doubt the maximum speed of the PS5 SSD was already taken advantage of this early
 
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itsjustJEFF

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Which of my posts have been a tirade? My "fanboy argument" is why not release the I/O statistics if it isn't a marketing issue? This has a bigger potential to bolster the claims of the huge benefits of the SSD architecture that the PS5 has more than hurt it... Unless it isn't as big of a factor as some think. The fact that they are secretive about it seems suspect.

As for Sweeney saying it there isn't a deal. Somebody earlier posted a video where he said that the PS3 was easy to develop for. Was he telling the truth there too?

You are right. Having all the platforms doesn't make my opinion more valid. But the fact that I'm going to invest in every system makes me willing to look past the PR speak.
:messenger_tears_of_joy: You're too much man, just too much. PR speak? Everything you're hearing right with either consoles is PR speak. Nothing is released, as of right now it's all theoretical. You're so selective with what you choose to call PR speak it's hilarious. I still don't understand why they need to prove anything to you guys LOL I don't understand it. Like you guys are "owed" anything :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Please don't reply to this. I'm out. I just can't. You're right, you win. Playstation did pay for EPIC to talk up the PS5 and it's architecture and SSD. That SSD and I/O is really not anything special. We should really boycott EPIC games for this and petition developers to not use the engine of a liar like Tim Sweeney. Someone willing to sell their soul for money. We should reach out to Phil, they should not use UE5 in their next gen games. Move HellBlade 2's development over to Unity or something.
 
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Jan 29, 2019
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High resolution textures have been a thing for years already. I don't once remember reading that an SSD was needed for them.
Sure, raytracing has been a thing for at least 40 years now... you don't even need a 64-bit CPU to do it.

You can do anything if time is not an issue.
 

Ascend

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The inferior I/O will bottleneck the SSD speeds on the XSX, Similar to installing a SSD in a PS4
-.- -_- >_<
I'm going to try to something here... Rather than assuming malice, I am going to assume ignorance, or, lack of knowledge to put it more softly... So... Let me try and explain a few things... Maybe, just maybe, things will become clear in the end. This is relevant for you too, Keihart Keihart ...

Games are currently developed with HDDs in mind, not SSDs. What do HDDs have? They have platters and a head to seek information. In order to access data on the HDD, the platters spin, and the head needs to be 'put' in the proper position on the platter to start reading the data. Obviously, you want to read things as fast as possible. But it takes time for the head to be put in the right position, to start reading the data.
Then we have SSDs. SSDs do not have seek times in the traditional sense. Basically, you can read from an SSD in a similar way compared to how you read from RAM.
Hopefully, this has been understood. Before jumping to conclusions, if you have any doubts, please do me a favor and ask.

... Let's continue...

What happens if you put a game programmed for HDDs on an SSD? Well, we need some more background information here...
First of all, since HDDs are so slow, developers do multiple things to reduce seek times (i.e. the time the head has to search for the data on the platter) and also to transfer data as fast as possible. This is to optimize for the slow data transfer.
The first thing they do is copy the same file multiple times on the HDD. So basically you can have 5, 10, or even 20 copies of the same file in extreme cases, in order to reduce seek times. This is one of main the reasons games are so big right now. Look at it like this. If you have to find one ball as quick as possible on a football field, the chances of finding it in less time is a lot higher if there are several balls rather than only one.
Additionally, when the game is installed, each file is stored sequentially, meaning, all the data is placed in the exact order that the head would move over the spinning platter. This reduces the amount of times you have to seek for data, in addition to enabling the head to 'constantly' read the data without interruptions afterwards.

SSDs on the other hand, they do not benefit from multiple copies of the same file at all (it's actually the opposite), and benefit to a much lesser extent from sequential data. Data on the SSD can practically be accessed relatively instantly anywhere on the drive. The main thing that slows down SSDs is random reads, because I/O requests are not free. Sequential data would reduce the amount of I/O requests in comparison to the data being scattered everywhere, and thus you get an increase in performance. But it does not have anything to do with seek times or the actual accessing of the data.

And that is exactly the problem. Since you have a bunch of copies of the same file when you programmed with HDDs in mind, the HDD is trying to access whichever data is the closest, and this increases performance. On an SSD, there really is no 'close' or 'far away' data. So the SSD will try to read from all of the copies, basically turning the sequential read into a random read, tanking performance. The optimal setup for the HDD is pretty much the worst for the SSD. Rather than an optimization, it is pretty much gimping the SSD. You end up making a lot of unnecessary I/O requests, because the game thinks it's on an HDD that needs to find a ball as quickly as possible by running on a field. It is the exact reason why SATA SSDs perform basically the same as NVMe SSDs, despite the latter being a LOT faster. They both get 'killed' equally by the unnecessary I/O requests of the game.

This is why I have been saying that dropping a game that is not optimized for an SSD on the PS5 will have the exact same effect as what State of Decay had in the non-optimized demo for the XSX. And yes, it was non-optimized. Find the State of Decayt video on YouTube and read what the description says. The argument of an older gaming having the same effect on the PS5 and XSX has little to do with the capabilities of either console, and it has everything to do with the way things are being done currently, and how they are far from optimal for the new hardware in either console. If you can acknowledge that a SATA and NVMe SSD give pretty much the same performance on a game optimized for HDD, despite an NVMe SSD generally being anywhere between 5 to 7 times faster, it really is a stretch to somehow believe that things are different for the XSX SSD and the PS5 SSD. Especially considering the fact that a PS5 SSD is not even 3 times as fast as the XSX SSD, compared to the 5+ times faster of SATA vs NVMe...

Hopefully, this clears up some things, and we can lay off the disinformation.
 

Kumomeme

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do not fret...probably what ms can/will do to 'counter' this is by:

1. less talk/self claiming - let the game devs talk instead especially 3rd party
2. throw tech demo
3. show games

this is what sony did..they let devs do the talk even in their own magazines or whatsoever, throw tech demo be it first or 3rd party and back those up with some game showcase...which is we can probably expect all of this during next july event.
 
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NoMoChokeSJ

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Jun 3, 2014
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:messenger_tears_of_joy: You're too much man, just too much. PR speak? Everything you're hearing right with either consoles is PR speak. Nothing is released, as of right now it's all theoretical. You're so selective with what you choose to call PR speak it's hilarious. I still don't understand why they need to prove anything to you guys LOL I don't understand it. Like you guys are "owed" anything :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Please don't reply to this. I'm out. I just can't. You're right, you win. Playstation did pay for EPIC to talk up the PS5 and it's architecture and SSD. That SSD and I/O is really not anything special. We should really boycott EPIC games for this and petition developers to not use the engine of a liar like Tim Sweeney. Someone willing to sell their soul for money. We should reach out to Phil, they should not use UE5 in their next gen games. Move HellBlade 2's development over to Unity or something.
Jesus Jeff, get a grip. I hope you are less dramatic about the important things in life. I never said MS doesn't do PR speak and I never said that the PS5 architecture doesn't have the potential to be awesome. All I said was their silence about specifics speaks volumes. If it walks like a duck and quacks, it's probably a duck. I'm not sure why that seemingly works you up so much, but hey if it's that important to you whatever.
 
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kikii

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Mar 18, 2020
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i gots Samsung 500GB 970 EVO Plus SSD, M.2 2280, PCIe 3.0 x4, NVMe, 3500/3200 MB/s on PC so am i halfway to to be winner ? :p
 

Keihart

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Jun 23, 2013
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-.- -_- >_<
I'm going to try to something here... Rather than assuming malice, I am going to assume ignorance, or, lack of knowledge to put it more softly... So... Let me try and explain a few things... Maybe, just maybe, things will become clear in the end. This is relevant for you too, Keihart Keihart ...

Games are currently developed with HDDs in mind, not SSDs. What do HDDs have? They have platters and a head to seek information. In order to access data on the HDD, the platters spin, and the head needs to be 'put' in the proper position on the platter to start reading the data. Obviously, you want to read things as fast as possible. But it takes time for the head to be put in the right position, to start reading the data.
Then we have SSDs. SSDs do not have seek times in the traditional sense. Basically, you can read from an SSD in a similar way compared to how you read from RAM.
Hopefully, this has been understood. Before jumping to conclusions, if you have any doubts, please do me a favor and ask.

... Let's continue...

What happens if you put a game programmed for HDDs on an SSD? Well, we need some more background information here...
First of all, since HDDs are so slow, developers do multiple things to reduce seek times (i.e. the time the head has to search for the data on the platter) and also to transfer data as fast as possible. This is to optimize for the slow data transfer.
The first thing they do is copy the same file multiple times on the HDD. So basically you can have 5, 10, or even 20 copies of the same file in extreme cases, in order to reduce seek times. This is one of main the reasons games are so big right now. Look at it like this. If you have to find one ball as quick as possible on a football field, the chances of finding it in less time is a lot higher if there are several balls rather than only one.
Additionally, when the game is installed, each file is stored sequentially, meaning, all the data is placed in the exact order that the head would move over the spinning platter. This reduces the amount of times you have to seek for data, in addition to enabling the head to 'constantly' read the data without interruptions afterwards.

SSDs on the other hand, they do not benefit from multiple copies of the same file at all (it's actually the opposite), and benefit to a much lesser extent from sequential data. Data on the SSD can practically be accessed relatively instantly anywhere on the drive. The main thing that slows down SSDs is random reads, because I/O requests are not free. Sequential data would reduce the amount of I/O requests in comparison to the data being scattered everywhere, and thus you get an increase in performance. But it does not have anything to do with seek times or the actual accessing of the data.

And that is exactly the problem. Since you have a bunch of copies of the same file when you programmed with HDDs in mind, the HDD is trying to access whichever data is the closest, and this increases performance. On an SSD, there really is no 'close' or 'far away' data. So the SSD will try to read from all of the copies, basically turning the sequential read into a random read, tanking performance. The optimal setup for the HDD is pretty much the worst for the SSD. Rather than an optimization, it is pretty much gimping the SSD. You end up making a lot of unnecessary I/O requests, because the game thinks it's on an HDD that needs to find a ball as quickly as possible by running on a field. It is the exact reason why SATA SSDs perform basically the same as NVMe SSDs, despite the latter being a LOT faster. They both get 'killed' equally by the unnecessary I/O requests of the game.

This is why I have been saying that dropping a game that is not optimized for an SSD on the PS5 will have the exact same effect as what State of Decay had in the non-optimized demo for the XSX. And yes, it was non-optimized. Find the State of Decayt video on YouTube and read what the description says. The argument of an older gaming having the same effect on the PS5 and XSX has little to do with the capabilities of either console, and it has everything to do with the way things are being done currently, and how they are far from optimal for the new hardware in either console. If you can acknowledge that a SATA and NVMe SSD give pretty much the same performance on a game optimized for HDD, despite an NVMe SSD generally being anywhere between 5 to 7 times faster, it really is a stretch to somehow believe that things are different for the XSX SSD and the PS5 SSD. Especially considering the fact that a PS5 SSD is not even 3 times as fast as the XSX SSD, compared to the 5+ times faster of SATA vs NVMe...

Hopefully, this clears up some things, and we can lay off the disinformation.
I mean, i understand this, i was just pointing out that the shorter loading times for last gen games might be a little different between both consoles, the spiderman demo made a ten fold improvement on the original(from 8 to 0.8 seconds). How was that demo setup and shit, i have no idea which is why i wonder if it's going to be the same or not on both consoles.
 
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quest

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Jul 17, 2004
4,838
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i gots Samsung 500GB 970 EVO Plus SSD, M.2 2280, PCIe 3.0 x4, NVMe, 3500/3200 MB/s on PC so am i halfway to to be winner ? :p
You should watch it tim sweeney will be expecting your apology video to jack Ryan and mark cerny no later than Monday morning lol.
 

itsjustJEFF

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Apr 12, 2018
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Jesus Jeff, get a grip. I hope you are less dramatic about the important things in life. I never said MS doesn't do PR speak and I never said that the PS5 architecture doesn't have the potential to be awesome. All I said was their silence about specifics speaks volumes. If it walks like a duck and quacks, it's probably a duck. I'm not sure why that seemingly works you up so much, but hey if it's that important to you whatever.
Jesus NoMo, Jesus... he knows and it's okay. Dramatic :messenger_tears_of_joy: This ain't about life, this is about video games. I'm not the one going around asking, actually demanding, for proof on numbers. Looking for conspiracies of people being bought off :messenger_tears_of_joy: clearly you have a grip :messenger_winking:
 
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NoMoChokeSJ

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Jun 3, 2014
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Jesus NoMo, Jesus... he knows and it's okay. Dramatic, come off of it. This ain't about like, this is about video games. I'm not the one going around asking, actually demanding, for proof on numbers. Looking for conspiracies of people being bought off :messenger_tears_of_joy: clearly you have a grip.
There is a difference between questioning and demanding. Nobody is demanding anything. Sweeney is being purposefully vauge, so why wouldn't you question him? And nobody is saying anything about conspiracies either or people being bought off. Those are all your words, your drama, not mine. Partnerships and marketing deals are common in the video game world as you acknowledged yourself. I'm not sure why this seems so far fetched given the circumstances. You obviously seem very invested/passionate about the narrative... Much, much more than I am.
 
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itsjustJEFF

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There is a difference between questioning and demanding. Nobody is demanding anything. Sweeney is being purposefully vauge, so why wouldn't you question him? And nobody is saying anything about conspiracies either or people being bought off. Those are all your words, your drama, not mine. Partnerships and marketing deals are common in the video game world as you acknowledged yourself. I'm not sure why this seems so far fetched given the circumstances. You obviously seem very invested/passionate about the narrative... Much, much more than I am.
Because I believe them. I believe Tim Sweeney. I believe what Playstation claims. I believe what the dev's say about the PS5. I believe the what Xbox says about the Series X. I believe what the dev's say about the Series X... because If it's a lie, it'll all come out eventually. We'll be able to see if a game has pop-in, if a game has bigger worlds. If a game is running at 60fps at 30fps. If a game doesn't run well. I am not an engineer, I am not a hardware engineer, I'm not a software engineer. I don't claim to understand how any of these systems actually work. So, I believe the experts, until they're caught lying.
 
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Panajev2001a

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I'm going to try to something here... Rather than assuming malice, I am going to assume ignorance, or, lack of knowledge to put it more softly... So... Let me try and explain a few things... Maybe, just maybe, things will become clear in the end. This is relevant for you too, Keihart Keihart ...

Games are currently developed with HDDs in mind, not SSDs. What do HDDs have? They have platters and a head to seek information. In order to access data on the HDD, the platters spin, and the head needs to be 'put' in the proper position on the platter to start reading the data. Obviously, you want to read things as fast as possible. But it takes time for the head to be put in the right position, to start reading the data.
Then we have SSDs. SSDs do not have seek times in the traditional sense. Basically, you can read from an SSD in a similar way compared to how you read from RAM.
Hopefully, this has been understood. Before jumping to conclusions, if you have any doubts, please do me a favor and ask.

... Let's continue...

What happens if you put a game programmed for HDDs on an SSD? Well, we need some more background information here...
First of all, since HDDs are so slow, developers do multiple things to reduce seek times (i.e. the time the head has to search for the data on the platter) and also to transfer data as fast as possible. This is to optimize for the slow data transfer.
The first thing they do is copy the same file multiple times on the HDD. So basically you can have 5, 10, or even 20 copies of the same file in extreme cases, in order to reduce seek times. This is one of main the reasons games are so big right now. Look at it like this. If you have to find one ball as quick as possible on a football field, the chances of finding it in less time is a lot higher if there are several balls rather than only one.
Additionally, when the game is installed, each file is stored sequentially, meaning, all the data is placed in the exact order that the head would move over the spinning platter. This reduces the amount of times you have to seek for data, in addition to enabling the head to 'constantly' read the data without interruptions afterwards.

SSDs on the other hand, they do not benefit from multiple copies of the same file at all (it's actually the opposite), and benefit to a much lesser extent from sequential data. Data on the SSD can practically be accessed relatively instantly anywhere on the drive. The main thing that slows down SSDs is random reads, because I/O requests are not free. Sequential data would reduce the amount of I/O requests in comparison to the data being scattered everywhere, and thus you get an increase in performance. But it does not have anything to do with seek times or the actual accessing of the data.

And that is exactly the problem. Since you have a bunch of copies of the same file when you programmed with HDDs in mind, the HDD is trying to access whichever data is the closest, and this increases performance. On an SSD, there really is no 'close' or 'far away' data. So the SSD will try to read from all of the copies, basically turning the sequential read into a random read, tanking performance. The optimal setup for the HDD is pretty much the worst for the SSD. Rather than an optimization, it is pretty much gimping the SSD. You end up making a lot of unnecessary I/O requests, because the game thinks it's on an HDD that needs to find a ball as quickly as possible by running on a field. It is the exact reason why SATA SSDs perform basically the same as NVMe SSDs, despite the latter being a LOT faster. They both get 'killed' equally by the unnecessary I/O requests of the game.

This is why I have been saying that dropping a game that is not optimized for an SSD on the PS5 will have the exact same effect as what State of Decay had in the non-optimized demo for the XSX. And yes, it was non-optimized. Find the State of Decayt video on YouTube and read what the description says. The argument of an older gaming having the same effect on the PS5 and XSX has little to do with the capabilities of either console, and it has everything to do with the way things are being done currently, and how they are far from optimal for the new hardware in either console. If you can acknowledge that a SATA and NVMe SSD give pretty much the same performance on a game optimized for HDD, despite an NVMe SSD generally being anywhere between 5 to 7 times faster, it really is a stretch to somehow believe that things are different for the XSX SSD and the PS5 SSD. Especially considering the fact that a PS5 SSD is not even 3 times as fast as the XSX SSD, compared to the 5+ times faster of SATA vs NVMe...

Hopefully, this clears up some things, and we can lay off the disinformation.
You make good points, curiously it is in redesigning the I/O controller and the API’s accessing the filesystem where maximal use of the SSD can be obtained and likely what both MS and Sony worked on and an area where Sony may have the advantage (ensuring they get much better random read access performance lowering the cost per request).
 
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NoMoChokeSJ

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Because I believe them. I believe Tim Sweeney. I believe what Playstation claims. I believe what the dev's say about the PS5. I believe the what Xbox says about the Series X. I believe what the dev's say about the Series X... because If it's a lie, it'll all come out eventually. I am not an engineer, I am not a hardware engineer, I'm not a software engineer. I don't claim to understand how any of these systems actually work. So, I believe the experts.
That's great you believe them. I've been through 35 years of consoles and promises from these companies. I'll remain a skeptic until they show me otherwise because history has shown these releases are dominated by 1/2 truths and exaggerations from all parties. You are right though, it will all come out in the end.
 
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Panajev2001a

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I like how some people seem like they are saying “marketing deal” as a passive aggressive way to avoid saying “they promised me it was a monster that destroyed PS5 in everything, Epic was paid off to make XSX look bad, it is not possible for PS5 not to be trash in comparison... but hey still great games on PS5, good first party teams are very important:LOL:.
 
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Max_Po

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Well, at least its better than hearing what we heard about PS3 ...

crazy ken, hard to developer for, redo the console ...
 

asustitan

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I seem to remember developers speaking out on the weaker console last generation coming out saying amazing things.

Seems like they want the message that both are great to maximise sales of their games. Who would of thought.
 
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Panajev2001a

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I seem to remember developers speaking out on the weaker console last generation coming out saying amazing things.

Seems like they want the message that both are great to maximise sales of their games. Who would of thought.
That is a neat new angle... so the conspiracy is that Epic is now buttering up PS5 / saying misleading thing to intentionally hype the weak console to help sales of their games :LOL:. Is it that much of a problem that PS5 is not a half step trash in comparison console to some?
 
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People parrotting this 'marketing deal' response to anything positive Epic employees say about PS5 need to get a fucking grip. What a desperate attempt to downplay or refuse to acknowledge what the PS5 is capable of.

It's the same kind of crap as ignoring anything positive devs say about the console as 'they're all working for Sony' when half of them it turns out are not.
 

Bo_Hazem

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Epic Games' VP of engineering Nick Penwarden has called the PS5 a "masterpiece of systems design", after working with the console's dev kit to help create last month's jaw-dropping Unreal Engine 5 tech demo.

"The PlayStation 5 is a masterpiece of systems design," says Penwarden. "Not only is it driving a huge leap in computing and graphics performance, but it is also revolutionary in terms of storage and data compression technology, unlocking new kinds of games and experiences for players to enjoy."

More at source

Why not? It should so far the best gaming graphics known to man with gameplay to back it up.

Or woman or whatever you identify as.
 

asustitan

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That is a neat new angle... so the conspiracy is that Epic is now buttering up PS5 / saying misleading thing to intentionally hype the weak console to help sales of their games :LOL:. Is it that much of a problem that PS5 is not a half step trash in comparison console to some?
I'm not saying this is entirely in the same league, just be sceptical is all.

Remember the super fast 32Mb ESRAM.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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So far, no. Still sometime for Xbox to show something near that level. UE5 demo is the best looking gameplay running in real-time on any gaming device to date, and it wasn't 100% optimized as well. Horizon FW and Ratchet and Clank are close but have artistic direction.

Debating with "words" won't hide the hard facts shown to date.
 
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So far, no. Still sometime for Xbox to show something near that level. UE5 demo is the best looking gameplay running in real-time on any gaming device to date, and it wasn't 100% optimized as well. Horizon FW and Ratchet and Clank are close but have artistic direction.

Debating with "words" won't hide the hard facts shown to date.
Yep, for sure the UE5 PS5 gameplay demo is the most impressive in-engine graphics yet seen, let alone playable gameplay graphics.

The great thing is it'll be topped at some point this gen, parts of Horizon 2 already will pronably achieve that by the time its released.
 

Memorabilia

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If Velocity Architecture is something along the lines of Smart Delivery, XSX is mostly a brute force machine.

Meanwhile the ps5, with the dual sense features, on-chip bottleneck killers, ssd speed, and variable clocks, is definitely a league above xsx in terms of design.

That is undeniable.
"undeniable." 🤦‍♂️😅