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Drama Epic Games vs Apple in court face off INCLUDING Tim Sweeney , LIVE !!!

down 2 orth

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demigod

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Making such points would not make sense, if it didn't matter.
Apple would not try to invalidate MS claims over it either, had it not mattered.

Last, but not least, I live in EU and the link I've shared was specifically about EU being after filthy Apple's filthy practices.


Apple is being targeted as what it is, running in circles around already debunked "but PS/Xbox" won't automatically make any such ruling affect the said platforms.


Epic did contrast MS vs Apple for a reason, that is indicative enough to me, that they do care.

Comparison to google's Android is not correct, as google allows connecting to as many app stores, as user wants, while still providing their services and while allowing forking the hell out of the OS.


I find it amusing that someone could mention Apple and someone else in the same in the same sentence and spin that someone else as greedy.

Getting a cut from SUBSCRIPTION was something unseen until Mr Jobs got brilliant idea of getting a cut from everything. Even getting a cut from mobile providers, for selling iphones, which looked so innovative to people who have never used devices like this:

This lawsuit is about setting limits on milking that filthy Apfel is allowed to exercise.
What's more amusing is your lust for Tim Swiney and hatred for Apple. You sound physically retarded using the word Apfel. If a company could get away with being greedy, they would. Guess which company sold their software previously and now went with a subscription model and are making more money from it?

Apple's Lawyer is just picking apart Epic's VP.
 
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Krizalidx11

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"we cannot compete with music streaming of the filthy fucks' own music streaming service, as we are supposed to cede large portion of our revenue to the said filthy fucks"

And it is convincing enough to me, and not only me:




@DJTaurus
The "but why can MS and Sony do it" has been addressed numerous times in this very thread, including in court citations.

And I would have expected from someone posting on a gaming forum to know that XB and PS are often sold at a loss, unlike, you know, those overpriced fashion electronics by Der Apfel.

Just when i thought i'm on Apple's side VS Sweeney but nope evil apple is doing the usual
 

llien

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What's more amusing is your lust for Tim Swiney and hatred for Apple.
I despise shitty companies, I don't know much about Swiney to care about him.
I do want Valve's obese Steam to get competition.
I do want legislators to address outrageous policies by planetary level filthy corporations (and Apple is just one of them, not the only one).

As if I, you know, had some principles. I was told humans should have those, but them, I"m rather old fashioned.

You sound physically retarded
Imbecilic ad hominem from team Assholes, paint me surprised.
 
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demigod

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I despise shitty companies, I don't know much about Swiney to care about him.
I do want Valve's obese Steam to get competition.
I do want legislators to address outrageous policies by planetary level filthy corporations (and Apple is just one of them, not the only one).

As if I, you know, had some principles. I was told humans should have those, but them, I"m rather old fashioned.


Imbecilic ad hominem from team Assholes, paint me surprised.
Ad hominum? Then stop typing like one. Just what are you doing now calling people assholes than?

What’s so outrageous about Apple getting their cut when Epic was fine with it previously? So you’re fine with Epic breaking their contract with Apple while screwing millions of people out of Fortnite updates on iOS?
 
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reksveks

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There is an inherent paradox with the statement that you treat all developers the same when you have an internal marketing team that decides that apps that you are promoting or not and you have alpha and beta programs for api. I don't know why they worded in that way.
 

Panajev2001a

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There is an inherent paradox with the statement that you treat all developers the same when you have an internal marketing team that decides that apps that you are promoting or not and you have alpha and beta programs for api. I don't know why they worded in that way.
Saying the opposite and acting as big censor as well as big services supplier puts them in a bit difficult position to defend otherwise.

Highlighting content can have plausible deniability and is a tad softer than rejecting critical app updates or features from some developers and not others (even then the plausible deniability defence is “oh but it was just a trial run before opening it up to all devs”… sure maybe a few years run with a single developer curiously from a mega corp huh🤔?). Then you have cases such as Amazon Prime slowing for alternative payments inside their app and avoiding IAP…

Even from the “horror” stories people told me about console cert, it looks like a much easier level playing field than iOS today. The way they control how apps can look and feel and what they can do is a lot tighter / worse than on consoles IMHO (which ditched the content approval phase years ago): review rules are often interpreted very inconsistently and can be wielded like an axe to help their own apps and their partners while keeping other apps around as little more than a decently profitable anti monopoly accusation shield (“look, there ARE other apps”) as long as their cash cows are given preferential treatment.
Google is now following suit as they both realise one fact about their users: they tend to use the first party products a lot and stay in the ecosystem. You do not need those pesky third party agencies, you do not need to share data with them.

Apple put up this white knight parade against tracking, but curiously they do not consider tracking your every breath across Safari, Apple Music, Apple App Store, iOS and macOS, Apple News, etc… and sharing your behaviour across them as tracking. “Oh but it is within our ecosystem”, sure it is… sure it is.
 
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Thanks to the trial more and more devs are speaking out / details are coming out:


To be fair to Tim Cook, the CEO doesn't know all things. To me it sounds like Hulu and Zoom are big enough for him to know it deviates from a norm, but maybe it's not big enough issue on his plate to know.

At companies I've worked for, you can have a retailer drop an entire brand. Everyone is sales, marketing and finance know. But there's possibility, nobody told the big cheese. Sit in a meeting and someone brings it up, and it's the first time he's heard about it.
 
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Menzies

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To be fair to Tim Cook, the CEO doesn't know all things. To me it sounds like Hulu and Zoom are big enough for him to know it deviates from a norm, but maybe it's not big enough issue on his plate to know.

At companies I've worked for, you can have a retailer drop an entire brand. Everyone is sales, marketing and finance know. But there's possibility, nobody told the big cheese. Sit in a meeting and someone brings it up, and it's the first time he's heard about it.
If only they had 43 lawyers. Then they could finally have the resources to prep him so that the words he testifies to in court are accurate.
 

Bryank75

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Even if the Judge said all platforms must allow multiple storefronts, I believe the way around this is to go back to all physical games for consoles.

It's the better option out of the two.

For digital games, just sell the codes through online and retail for the specific game (ironically).

That would solve pretty much everything... because there would be no store on the console, just a code redeem system.
 

Foilz

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If epic was to ever win this lawsuit I'd love it if someone released a no other game satore app on the epic store
 

N1tr0sOx1d3

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Apple reveals it rejected or removed over 1MILLION malicious apps from its App Store in 2020 and stopped more than $1.5billion in potentially fraudulent transactions.​

That’s fraud on a massive scale.
 

A.Romero

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Apple reveals it rejected or removed over 1MILLION malicious apps from its App Store in 2020 and stopped more than $1.5billion in potentially fraudulent transactions.​

That’s fraud on a massive scale.

Interesting piece of data.

Even if the Judge said all platforms must allow multiple storefronts, I believe the way around this is to go back to all physical games for consoles.

It's the better option out of the two.

For digital games, just sell the codes through online and retail for the specific game (ironically).

That would solve pretty much everything... because there would be no store on the console, just a code redeem system.

I agree, codes would be ideal. Putting a store within a store is bs.
 

PaintTinJr

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Even if the Judge said all platforms must allow multiple storefronts, I believe the way around this is to go back to all physical games for consoles.

It's the better option out of the two.

For digital games, just sell the codes through online and retail for the specific game (ironically).

That would solve pretty much everything... because there would be no store on the console, just a code redeem system.
I don't think it would be a problem for any of the consoles - but particularly in PlayStation's case with highly bespoke hardware and software- as the OSes aren't general purpose - unless Xbox's OS is just Windows - so at a worst case scenario a PlayStation would need to provide the ability to disable its equivalent of a secure boot, to allow the hardware to be used by an OS (probably linux), but without any of the advanced hardware mapped or probably any need to disable hypervisors for custom units. They certainly wouldn't need to provide their gaming SDK or tools to help any third party use another OS on the hardware - but might need to provide block diagrams of the hardware with address ranges, modes to allow others to trial and error map the general purpose aspects of the system.
 
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hlm666

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Even if the Judge said all platforms must allow multiple storefronts, I believe the way around this is to go back to all physical games for consoles.

It's the better option out of the two.

For digital games, just sell the codes through online and retail for the specific game (ironically).

That would solve pretty much everything... because there would be no store on the console, just a code redeem system.

Your going to need a store for DLC and MTX, unless somehow your gonna reduce another high revenue source to zero. If they are selling keys via third party stores only what stops EA/Take2/Activision just selling their keys on their own online stores? If the keys don't work until the console manufacturers get their 30% cut or something your back in the same boat. If the keys do work they are now not getting the 30% they were trying to avoid losing.
 

ManaByte

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prinz_valium

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Even if the Judge said all platforms must allow multiple storefronts, I believe the way around this is to go back to all physical games for consoles.

It's the better option out of the two.

For digital games, just sell the codes through online and retail for the specific game (ironically).

That would solve pretty much everything... because there would be no store on the console, just a code redeem system.
This case is not at all about multiple storefronts on a platform. No one is arguing that.
 
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smbu2000

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LOL this is comedy gold. Star witness should certainly have taken time to walk through and memorize the process for the 10 titles they were talking about. It was 10 games not 10k. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Just because you make it harder on your own website to purchase v-bucks or clash royale money, etc. isn’t Apple’s fault. It’s a design flaw of your company website. King/Epic/etc.

 

reksveks

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Just because you make it harder on your own website to purchase v-bucks or clash royale money, etc. isn’t Apple’s fault. It’s a design flaw of your company website. King/Epic/etc.

The argument cuts both ways but as a consumer, you can't say it isn't an easily alternative solution as Apple's expert did in their testimony.

I generally think that sadly the Judge sees a valid alternative to the app store and that's cause no one has made the case that webkit doesn't support all of html5 features
 

hlm666

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Just because you make it harder on your own website to purchase v-bucks or clash royale money, etc. isn’t Apple’s fault. It’s a design flaw of your company website. King/Epic/etc.


This video has a part where they are contesting console and mobile games are different or not substituable. Yet we had microsoft and nvidia rolled out to say their streaming apps were rejected, if console and pc games are different to mobile and not interchangable what the hell were those 2 companies going to be streaming to mobile devices?

If Epic wins and apple are forced to open the ecosystem, is it at a software or hardware level? Basically I'm asking if apple lose and are gonna be bitter could they just allow end users the option to install other operating systems kinda like the ps3. Thus forcing anyone who wants out of the apple software eco to install 3rd party operating systems and potentially make epic have to create their own os (or a customised linux cause epic wont do it from scratch). On a purely academic level if that happened it would be interesting to see the performance differences between ios and another os on the same device.
 
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ethomaz

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PaintTinJr

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This video has a part where they are contesting console and mobile games are different or not substituable. Yet we had microsoft and nvidia rolled out to say their streaming apps were rejected, if console and pc games are different to mobile and not interchangable what the hell were those 2 companies going to be streaming to mobile devices?

If Epic wins and apple are forced to open the ecosystem, is it at a software or hardware level? Basically I'm asking if apple lose and are gonna be bitter could they just allow end users the option to install other operating systems kinda like the ps3. Thus forcing anyone who wants out of the apple software eco to install 3rd party operating systems and potentially make epic have to create their own os (or a customised linux cause epic wont do it from scratch). On a purely academic level if that happened it would be interesting to see the performance differences between ios and another os on the same device.
No, I don't believe they can - like a specialist hardware device with a real-time non-general purpose OS could probably do.

Despite all Apple's best marketing efforts to take ownership of everything in their iOS (IMO) the majority of all their software is still based on linux's open source pillars and beyond. Their operating systems, just like Android and Windows, and Linux, etc is general purpose, and like any general purpose computing device, can be bought by schools, governments, hospitals, police, etc and in general be subsidised by tax perks when bought by virtually any business - in Western economies - AFAIK. It is the general purpose usefulness of a device for business that lets it freeload in access to wider sales, say unlike a games console that would only get such perks for companies operating explicitly in that gaming industry.

iDevices so ubiquitous with general purpose computing in the smartphone/tablet space to the extent they own a massive market share in terms of market revenue generated and device numbers - in the western economies - would surely be expected to provide an easier option to their users to access that general purpose-ness of the device, no? As I suspect most open source software would thrive on that device, requiring minimal changes, say compare to getting the same software running on a console's OS.

Also, smartphones operate in a highly regulated radio spectrum field, with specific licensed frequencies and modulations/protocols,, so it doesn't really fit the situation to expect - somewhere in the realm of a billion - users to jailbreak their device and run uncertified software controlling those devices' modulations/protocols, just to allow one trillion dollar company to have their cake and eat it (IMO).
 
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DaGwaphics

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Just because you make it harder on your own website to purchase v-bucks or clash royale money, etc. isn’t Apple’s fault. It’s a design flaw of your company website. King/Epic/etc.


I really wasn't taking a stand in either direction in this instance. What I thought was funny was that the person on the stand didn't have the entire process memorized for the specific 10 games they referenced, no matter how convoluted that process might be. They apparently hand picked these 10, so they should have had that down.

I do agree though that any developer can make a website and sell items directly. They would need to make you login to an account outside your console/store tag, but a lot of games do that already.
 

hlm666

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No, I don't believe they can - like a specialist hardware device with a real-time non-general purpose OS could probably do.

Despite all Apple's best marketing efforts to take ownership of everything in their iOS (IMO) the majority of all their software is still based on linux's open source pillars and beyond. Their operating systems, just like Android and Windows, and Linux, etc is general purpose, and like any general purpose computing device, can be bought by schools, governments, hospitals, police, etc and in general be subsidised by tax perks when bought by virtually any business - in Western economies - AFAIK. It is the general purpose usefulness of a device for business that lets it freeload in access to wider sales, say unlike a games console that would only get such perks for companies operating explicitly in that gaming industry.

iDevices so ubiquitous with general purpose computing in the smartphone/tablet space to the extent they own a massive market share in terms of market revenue generated and device numbers - in the western economies - would surely be expected to provide an easier option to their users to access that general purpose-ness of the device, no? As I suspect most open source software would thrive on that device, requiring minimal changes, say compare to getting the same software running on a console's OS.

Also, smartphones operate in a highly regulated radio spectrum field, with specific licensed frequencies and modulations/protocols,, so it doesn't really fit the situation to expect - somewhere in the realm of a billion - users to jailbreak their device and run uncertified software controlling those devices' modulations/protocols, just to allow one trillion dollar company to have their cake and eat it (IMO).

I probably should have used bootcamp as my comparison, I wasn't trying to make any comparisons with consoles I just chose the ps3 because it worked how i'd imagine apple could open the hardware up but not their software in the event they lost and had to let their users access other software on their device. It also wouldn't be jail breaking in this scenario.
 

llien

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LOL this is comedy gold. Star witness should certainly have taken time to walk through and memorize the process for the 10 titles they were talking about. It was 10 games not 10k. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
That was some epic stuff:

Then Epic's counsel went to the official website of another title on Hitt's list, Clash Royale, where he pulled up the parent's guide and found developer Supercell explicitly stating, "We do not store any credit card information related to in-game purchases as the payment transactions are completed through Apple's App Store or Google Play (depending on your device)."

"Yet you believe that your team managed to go to a website and buy legitimate Clash Royale money and go back to the app?" Epic's lawyer asked Hitt. "That's your testimony?"

Hitt replied, "I'd have to follow the links, but my research team identified the links that would enable you to do so. I'd have to go back and look to be sure."

Unsatisfied with the explanation, Epic's counsel responded, "You understand, sir, that the typical user of Clash Royale doesn't have a research team, correct?"

"I would think so, yes," said Hitt.

"And so as part of the 'frictionless' process," Epic's lawyer continued, "they cannot go to a research team of five PhD economists and ask them to please find how to conduct the transaction, correct?"

"They wouldn't have a research team, that's correct," Hitt confirmed.
 

Dream-Knife

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The only reason Apple can enforce restrictions like that is because you have to use their store. The moment you can use any store, there is no longer enforcement and the app can do whatever it wants.

Which is of course what Tencent/China wants. They want to be able to bypass all protections Apple gives it's users outside of China.
And some people just want some freedom, that apple is opposed to.

Apple is against right to repair and software freedom with their closed systems. But I guess some people yearn to be enslaved.
 
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Dr Bass

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Ad hominum? Then stop typing like one. Just what are you doing now calling people assholes than?

What’s so outrageous about Apple getting their cut when Epic was fine with it previously? So you’re fine with Epic breaking their contract with Apple while screwing millions of people out of Fortnite updates on iOS?

You think Epic “breaking their contract” with Apple was “screwing” millions of people, but you don’t see how ridiculous it is that Apple collects 30% of EVERYTHING that transpires on iOS? You think Apple deserves 30% of all businesses revenues, pre-tax?
 

demigod

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You think Epic “breaking their contract” with Apple was “screwing” millions of people, but you don’t see how ridiculous it is that Apple collects 30% of EVERYTHING that transpires on iOS? You think Apple deserves 30% of all businesses revenues, pre-tax?
Uhh yes, its their platform. Just like Android, Nintendo, Playstation, Steam and Xbox collects 30%. Epic signed up knowing and were happy with the 30% but now they want all that money to themselves. So you'd rather defend a greedy company like Epic that screwed the folks on iOS, you don't think that's ridiculous?
 

Dr Bass

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Uhh yes, its their platform. Just like Android, Nintendo, Playstation, Steam and Xbox collects 30%. Epic signed up knowing and were happy with the 30% but now they want all that money to themselves. So you'd rather defend a greedy company like Epic that screwed the folks on iOS, you don't think that's ridiculous?
“Uhhh” no.

Does Microsoft deserve 30% of all revenues on Windows? What about Apple and MacOS?

These are general purpose computing platforms that the worlds businesses depend on. These are not consoles and that comparison is brain dead.

I don’t think you understand the case to be honest.
 

demigod

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“Uhhh” no.

Does Microsoft deserve 30% of all revenues on Windows? What about Apple and MacOS?

These are general purpose computing platforms that the worlds businesses depend on. These are not consoles and that comparison is brain dead.

I don’t think you understand the case to be honest.
Apparently you don't know why Microsoft doesn't deserve 30% on Windows. Go learn a thing or two before you get back to me.
 
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prinz_valium

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Would be fun if Microsoft would prevent sideload of Apps on Windows just to see the world burn and make a point.
 

DaGwaphics

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Then Epic's counsel went to the official website of another title on Hitt's list, Clash Royale, where he pulled up the parent's guide and found developer Supercell explicitly stating, "We do not store any credit card information related to in-game purchases as the payment transactions are completed through Apple's App Store or Google Play (depending on your device)."

Obviously the research team bought themselves some Gems. https://www.g2g.com/cr/top-up-gems-23420-23443
 
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CuNi

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You think Epic “breaking their contract” with Apple was “screwing” millions of people, but you don’t see how ridiculous it is that Apple collects 30% of EVERYTHING that transpires on iOS? You think Apple deserves 30% of all businesses revenues, pre-tax?
Honestly speaking? Yes I do. They invented that platform, they make the rules. If the rules don't breach the law in any way than you can decide if you want to follow them and sell on their platform or not. Epic knew they take that big cut. Epic agreed to those terms and suddenly they didn't. Sorry that's not how it works. Then they tried to play the victim after breaching a contract. It's that simple. If they we're not happy with the cut then they shouldn't have agreed to it in the first point. I can't take a loan out from my bank and then suddenly accuse them of wanting way to high payments.

Everyone who thinks epic is right in this is wrong, I'm sorry to say that but it's the truth.