Karak
Member
Read through the posts before posting from now on. You have now missed 11 posts in just the last 5-6 pages, that correspond directly to the law you state. Two of those by me. Read before posting.
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Epic Reveals Samaritan Processing Requirements: 10x 360 at 1080p, (4.4x 360 at 720p)
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Read through the posts before posting from now on. You have now missed 11 posts in just the last 5-6 pages, that correspond directly to the law you state. Two of those by me. Read before posting.
Can someone please verify this statement? In all honesty, I cannot take iamshadowlark's statements at face value based off his posting history.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
He has the most basic grasp of the concept. Loves bitching about others like we're saying tech hasn't been keeping up with Moore's law. It has, but the energy required to power these parts has also increased exponentially as has the heat being created by those parts.
I'll say it again for those that don't seem to listen. You want cutting edge power? Get a PC. At this juncture consoles can't come close.
iamshadowlark
Banned
LOL what?
Simmer down, if you turn out to not be full of it this one time, it'll help me take you more seriously in the future ;-)
Gemüsepizza
Member
I am not sure you understand Moore's Law. There is no exponential increase in power consumption. Here a quote from Wikipedia:
Karak
Member
Right which is literally shotgunned through the last 10 pages of the thread and repeated to the point of almost needing its own post on the OP. That's what is confusing me that people keep saying Moore's law like they looked it up on wiki and think thats all that matters. Ok I get it now.
Some people have put science in a basket here. Lots of learning required as to what is actually occurring in the console space versus the PC space and the actual science required.
Also some shifting of goal posts everywhere. Maybe we should identify what next gen is?
I have now read the following floor level next gen expectations which have been 1080p 60fps, 1080p 30fps, 720p 60fps, and 720p 30fps, and at least one that was some combo that isn't an actual full jump at all.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
And yet there has been an exponential increase in power consumption.Gemüsepizza;35194574 said:
Here's what it will look like on your 1080p TV:
(100% conversion in Photoshop)
Not so hot anymore, eh?
Resolution is so important.
Photoshop by default is using bicubic sampling when upscaling. Your console would scale this image much less accurately than that(with a simpler bilinear filtering)
IQ is a major problem in videogames and we are nowhere near achieving photography like IQ.So the comparison doesn't make much sense. 1080p is the simplest and most logical IQ improvement you can get on next gen. I'm confident it's a given for most next gen games.
We should hope at least Samaritan-like games in 1080p for next gen, if not, what do we expect? Slight graphic update at 720p? How would that be considered next gen?
The fact than the demo ran on a high end rig doesn't mean we can't achieve something similar with much less power. Hell, we run Crysis on a 360, get your hopes up people.
well if the leap is not going to be great
what is gonna be the appeal to home consoles?
i mean smartphones and tablets will get more and more powerful...
So problably ipad 4 or 5 will get the power of current gen
IF we get nextgen with a minimal leap problably home consoles will be dead
no one will spend $400 for a minimal leap...
minimium is like xbox to xbox360 8x more powerful
what is gonna be the appeal to home consoles?
i mean smartphones and tablets will get more and more powerful...
So problably ipad 4 or 5 will get the power of current gen
IF we get nextgen with a minimal leap problably home consoles will be dead
no one will spend $400 for a minimal leap...
minimium is like xbox to xbox360 8x more powerful
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Coming off the generation that the market leader was literally a re-purposed GCN this is pretty funny.
Karak
Member
Its not really a statement as he isn't posting facts just that the combined power and a number isn't exactly equal to anything looking or performing in any particular way or to a particular spec as hundreds of bits come together to arrive at a threshold of system performance. So its true...in the same way I could say that Amazon doesn't always give excellent service even though they have all the prime requisites to always give it and have models to statistically prove constant excellent service.
Nothing factually wrong as nothing factual was posted. No one would have the space available on a forum board to post the hundreds of things, large and small, that impact a systems end performance.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Care to elaborate how you came to that figure, given Xenos' shader ALUs, which form by far the bulk of the FLOPs in the system, account for 240GFLOPs?
Um, yeah. The iPad 5 will not be as powerful as next gen systems. Maybe the WiiU, but not the PS4 or 720. Hell the iPad 2 isn't even as powerful as the 360/ps3 yet, and I doubt the iPad 3 will either.
themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
I think a 6x leap programmed from the ground up on a closed system will blow people socks off.
*points to Blu's post* I'm more concerned with what he's addressing
I believe that performance isn't 100% dependent on the GPU, i'm just wondering if he's interpreting Epic's statements correctlyThunder Monkey
Banned
It will.
I've got it on good authority that specialguy would buy a Fusion even if its effective power was weaker than the WiiU.
But he honestly believes WiiU is weaker than the 360.
tkscz
Member
Wait special guy thinks the WiiU is weaker than the 360? On what grounds? Is there an article or something that says it? The only thing I remember saying it was one article that EVERYONE thought was true, but never read that the very guy who made the article, claimed IGN's claim was true. Of course, no one read that.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
A junior popped into the WiiU spec thread said even though it has a modern GPU, alot more RAM, and six years of technical advancement that it was effectively weaker than a 360 so "his" dev team had to gimp a game they were porting from the 360.
specialguy was the only person that popped into the thread to agree with him. EatChildren pm'd to find out if the junior has any ties to the industry. The guy as far as I know hasn't posted since.
iamshadowlark
Banned
WTF are you even talking about? Bill Nie do you have any idea of what you're babbling about?
Sony E3 2005, when they claimed they were at 2 Tflops. I can only assume they included non-programmble ops to bolster that number for the PR.blu said:
Karak
Member
*points to Blu's post* I'm more concerned with what he's addressing
Then no its not in the strictest technical terms. But he is not wrong stating that those terms are measured differently depending on exactly what is being tested. Flop testing can be done and tested for in a couple ways. Peak and sustained for example.
tkscz
Member
Wait I remember that now. I couldn't post, only read then. Thought we all ignored that guy sense what he said made little sense and was probably some troll.
TFLOPS doesn't defines the ability of a machine to display high quality graphics. Saying a console is X times more powerful than another is rather senseless.
You should be more interested in the technology you'll see, and what hardware will support it.
On this matter, DX11-like compatibilty or GPGPU capabilities is a given, and alone, that should be a game changer. The mid end GPU released today are infinitely more evolved than the RSX.
You should be more interested in the technology you'll see, and what hardware will support it.
On this matter, DX11-like compatibilty or GPGPU capabilities is a given, and alone, that should be a game changer. The mid end GPU released today are infinitely more evolved than the RSX.
Karak
Member
Scratching my head at this one. That does seem strange.
Karak
Member
100% correct and spot on sir especially the bit about DX.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
All but one wrote him off as a troll.
I've had many of late question whether or not I have an agenda when talking about this stuff. Meanwhile rumor after rumor is saying to gamers "Be conservative with your expectations of next gen."
I won't be disappointed with whatever any of them put into their systems. Still a huge jump over the tech being deved for today.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Flops are very useful barometers when talking about a parts power. Its certainly not the end-all ,as one doesn't really exist for this subject but its probably the best pure metric for "power". Also GPGPU will mean nothing to consoles for a few years.
Karak
Member
Indeed. I just hope, in my own mind, that they don't shoot for some of the low estimates of 720p 30fps I have seen some post here as their own expectations. That would be...unique if only for its place in the current industry and how much "push to buy" it would garner.
So what is Epic talking about? This 1TFLOP number iamshadowlark is spouting sounds ridiculous. Clearly Epic is talking about a different calculation because they cite the 360 as performing at .25TFLOPs. In which case, what's the point of this 1TFLOP number? What is the .25TFLOP number referring to? I was under the impression it was referring to GPU performance, even more so now if the "theoretical max" of the entire 360 is 1TFLOP, in which case it simply reinforces my point that Epic is referring to a 10x increase in GPU performance.
bgassassin
Member
I think they may have. As pointed out earlier in this thread, based on the resolution of the original demo and the calculation of that res being 4.4TFLOPs, you see why they needed three 580s to run the demo.
Karak
Member
Well thats a fine thing to desire for a next gen. I would like to see that as well. However, when your talking about an actual game versus just a character and the world, the AI and all that.
That is a big request
But a very fine one.themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
Time to join the master race......
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
I actually agree with your overall point, but supposedly AMD's Pitcairn Pro is a 90 watt card that will offer performance similar to HD6950, which is 2.25 TFLOPS.
(Not saying well get a Pitcairn Pro either, just using it for arguments sake.)
Karak
Member
Some bullet points-
Well they needed 3 580's to run that. Without an actual game running and all the stuff that occurs behind the scenes.
EPIC IS referring to 10x increase
.25TFLOP is indeed what is touted by most as the actual performance ceiling of the 360 for entertainment IE games and multitasking and sustained performance and not burst for the GPU. But it may have been based on just the GPU. They do not specify in those slides. I am referring to EPIC.
What is the point? Well the numbers game for one. To sort of 1 up your competition or sound cool
Its been done for years. Hell I still remember years ago when they would push a single unshaded polygon and say that was how powerful a system was...it was idiotic. Case in point advertising and shit like that hasn't changed. Stick with .25TFLOP and you will be safe in discussions with people who actually know what they are talking about and understand the actual way that comes to fruition when games are concerned. But even then, sadly because of the lack of real testing, its still up in the air.True but raw power can only gives us a hint about what we can hope to see on screen.
People relies too much on this to settle their expectation, that's what I meant.
GPGPU could be used on many levels, but the most obvious use would be physics simulation. It's to be expected very early IMO.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I'd reckon that the 1TFLOP number is technically true when you add all the fixed-function hardware. But yea I may be wrong in what epic is saying on the slides, they probably just simplified it. Still doesn't change the fact that its not the whole story.
The $800+ PC plugged into your TV (via HDMI cable) with a wireless 360 pad is your future console of choice, then. lol
Does anyone here own a trombone?
Karak
Member
iamshadowlark
Banned
Some bullet points-
Well they needed 3 580's to run that. Without an actual game running.
EPIC IS referring to 10x increase
.25TFLOP is indeed what is touted by most as the actual performance ceiling of the 360 for entertainment IE games and multitasking and sustained performance and not burst.
What is the point? Well the numbers game for one. To sort of 1 up your competition or sound cool
.25tflop is only the GPU. The CPU adds about .115 tflops.
You do know that HD is 720p also, right?StevieP said:
What do you mean? The demo is totally realtime and representative of what we could find in a game. The player doesn't control anything but that doesn't change anything in term of computation, actually you could certainly switch to freecam at any moment and explore the scene as you please.
themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Not at any desirable precison. The latency would be horrible. The whole GPGPU she-bang is still a ways off.
So you were in fact misrepresenting the data. Either that or you completely misunderstood that I was saying Epic was asking for a GPU with 10x the performance of xenon at 2.5TFLOPs in order to achieve samaritan at 1080p.
No. Dynamic character interaction, as an example, requires AI cycles running on the CP... why am I even bothering? lol
60FPS also doubles the amount of... well I don't need to tell you. You do have experience in graphics.
No, not really. 28nm is the lowest you're going already. And I'll say it again: whatever is going into your 2013 console is taping out now. And if I were you gamers, I would want it to be a more balanced system design. Dedicating 75% or more of your power budget to the GPU could result in bottlenecks elsewhere.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I think there is a high likelihood that the picture was taken at a higher resolution and then downsampled to that size. And the importance of resolution really depends on your setup.Gemüsepizza;35194012 said:
I don't follow you. We're doing GPU based physics since years on PC(PhysX mainly).
Yeah thanks forgot that, but this wouldn't be a major performance consumption increase in a traditional shooter with only few character I think.