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[THE:MILKMAN]

Steamroller is what you'd put in a computer, jaguar is what you'd put in a tablet or smart phone.

Does that mean Orbis will have Jagroller cores?

Spoiler

Sorry

 

[Clay Davis]

What if they buy Windows 8 apps on it? Microsoft get's 30 percent of that revenue right?

apps for a few bucks compared to $50+ bucks for games.

 

[Globox_82]

 

[deanos]

Does that mean Orbis will have Jagroller cores?

Spoiler

Sorry

that made me laugh more than it should have.

 

[Baki]

You don't need to believe me, but the moment I found it was real, I changed my entire posting habits. Aurhur outed the RAM numbers, I was the person who revealed the speed of Durango's RAM, so I'm sure you will love to pretend I know nothing. Have some faith in me GAF -_-, I have been parroting the specs in the OP for a while now.

Yeah. Thuway was the first to reveal the 4GB GDDR on the PS4.

 

[gofreak]

Do we expect orbis to reserve one core for OS? Would seem about right if the amount of ram for the OS is less

I think it could be two. It will be absolutely at least one.

They use one A9 on Vita, probably at around 800Mhz I guess. So I guess one could argue that a single 1.6Ghz Jaguar should be a similar upgrade for Orbis's OS as the memory bump (256MB on Vita -> 512MB on Orbis). But I think they might go with two.

Depends though, maybe if they have a very independent media processor in there one might be enough. Or if they take a bit of that 'compute module' (assuming it is in fact a bit of programmable logic and not just a fancy name for the audio/video/decompression hardware).

 

[Glorified G]

so which one is better jaguar or steamroller?

The better question would be is if a streamroller clocked at 3.2ghz with 4 cores is better than a jaguar clocked at 1.6ghz with 8 cores in a closed console.

I know streamroller takes a lot more heat, but an 8 core jaguar is unprecedented. I wish a dev could give us more insight.

Yeah. Thuway was the first to reveal the 4GB GDDR on the PS4.

Again, it was heavily rumored that Sony was going with GDDR5/fast ram and vgleaks already leaked months ago that Sony was considering between 2-4gig ram.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

that made me laugh more than it should have.

I'm just trying to pass time. Leaker's don't work weekend's.

 

[googleplex]

Because it's someone synthesising a picture from a things on the internet...?

At least, that's what it looks like. If he's right it'll be legendary, but put me in the highly skeptical category right now.

It sounds like an developer's nightmare also.

 

[Bombadil]

All we can say for sure is that both consoles are going to put out mighty impressive looking games.

If the PS3 can do this:

and the 360 can do this:

Then we're in for a treat from both consoles.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

the secret sauce is gonna be cell. believe.

 

[SneakyStephan]

No, it's about bus bandwidth and GPU capacity, complicated with edram and special sauce

On a simple level, 68Gb/s should be able to transfer 1GB every 1/60 second. But that won't mean 1Gb unique data, and it won't reach those theoretical limits anyway, you have latency etc. and data will need to be written back to memory many times

I'm mainly curious if you take an 'industry average' streaming engine and give it 4 or 8GB (or 3.5 and 5), how much would be allocated to different parts? Assuming mandatory install on HDD for better transfer speeds.

I'd expect the HDD speed to be the real limiting factor. No point actually drawing 1Gb unique data per frame if you can only transfer in 200MB/s from HDD

Why would you draw data from the HDD to the gpu... that's what the ram as cache and loading screens/streaming are for
Unified pool means they'll have to use that 4GB in ps4 and 8GB in xbox as cache.

 

[Monas]

How does one Jaguar compare to Cell's PPE for general performance ?
I assume it's at least equal ?
If so, yeah maybe doesn't need an entire CPU to itself as long as the OS is lightweight and not trying to do too much. It seems like it could afford to spare 1 though, with all of the co-processors it seems to have onboard.

Jaguar is faster than the CELL's PPE but the PPE+6 SPUs (CELL B.E.) can wipe the floor with it. When it comes down to crunching numbers the Cell processor will own even the i3.

CELL was an unappreciated beast that died alone.

 

[Ashes]

Steamroller is what you'd put in a computer, jaguar is what you'd put in a tablet or smart phone.

How about an 8 core Jaguar?

We know a quadcore jaguar APU goes up to 25w maximum (they're coming way down the line), and we know Steamroller apu goes down past that level around 18w or something, [for the super thin but elite laptop segment], so there is an overlap there.

Arguably, an 8 core Kabini with jaguar cores would take 50w. Just sayin.. Would have been interesting to compare.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Alright, I can understand your viewpoint. I guess it's subjective in that I was looking at it with difference being that removing the GS/EE and 32mb of RDRAM from the PS3 had no bearing on the functionality of the PS3.

If I was to talk about the original PS3 I wouldn't say "Man that thing was a beast, it had 2 CPU's (CELL and Emotion Engine) and 2 GPU's (RSX and Graphics synthesizer) and 3 types of RAM (XDR/GDDR3/RDRAM)" because they are not coherent and don't work together. I don't consider the BC hardware as being "part of the PS3"

In any case doesn't take away the fact that what Giggzy describes is a clusterfuck of a design and Sony would be completely insane to go that direction.

Not only that, but the info being spread is in direct conflict with what is being described by more credible sources.

Indeed.

I guess were im coming from is that on a technical level all these things were once integrated on the same motherboard. I wasn't speaking of wether its a good idea or not, just there was a precedence set for it, by none other than Sony (which ironically probably makes it less likely!)

For the record i dont believe this rumour, in-case i am coming across like that.

 

[mrklaw]

I think it could be two. It will be absolutely at least one.

They use one A9 on Vita, probably at around 800Mhz I guess. So I guess one could argue that a single 1.6Ghz Jaguar should be a similar upgrade for Orbis's OS as the memory bump (256MB on Vita -> 512MB on Orbis). But I think they might go with two.

Depends though, maybe if they have a very independent media processor in there one might be enough. Or if they take a bit of that 'compute module' (assuming it is in fact a bit of programmable logic and not just a fancy name for the audio/video/decompression hardware).

Well it'd only be for background tasks, when in the foreground it can use all the cores. If they do mandatory remote play then they must use a hardware encoder surely?

 

[mrklaw]

Why would you draw data from the HDD to the gpu... that's what the ram as cache and loading screens/streaming are for
Unified pool means they'll have to use that 4GB in ps4 and 8GB in xbox as cache.

I meant into ram, sorry if that wasn't clear.

If you have a streaming engine, at some point as you drive 200mph through the city, you'll run out of data in ram so will need to replace it from the HDD (or disc). So that becomes your limiting factor ultimately

(Obviously you could reuse models/textures and just stream in unique data, which would suppose an advantage to Durango as that could hold more reusable assets in ram)

 

[Boss Man]

I said it before, but as much as we all hate it, Microsoft is doing the right thing with the next Xbox. Imagine all of the social momentum that will be added to XBL if people are seamlessly uploading clips of their COD kills onto Facebook, for example.

The only way I see Sony's more games-focused approach working out for them is if their stronger first party developers have been doing some serious work and manage produce things that the next Xbox cannot match as soon as the gate opens.

 

[jaosobno]

You don't need to believe me, but the moment I found it was real, I changed my entire posting habits. Aurhur outed the RAM numbers, I was the person who revealed the speed of Durango's RAM, so I'm sure you will love to pretend I know nothing. Have some faith in me GAF -_-, I have been parroting the specs in the OP for a while now.

I believe in you mister thuway sir! Keep 'em rumors coming!

 

[Mascot]

The whole "special sauce" thing is one of the stupidest god damn things I've heard regarding technology. If you want to call it a speculated blitter, then call it that, not some fucking wizard's jizz.

'Wizard's Jizz' needs to become mainstream terminology before E3. The first manufacturer to mention it in their keynote instantly wins the console war and is guaranteed to get my coins.

 

[Gorillaz]

Well yea, MS is going for the "kill" next gen trying to be the "all in one" I know people think they won't try it until the back half of the gen but I see them going out with that mentality right off the bat. Guns Blazing.

 

[Zeal]

I expect games to look virtually identical on both systems, with devs finding little tricks to utilize the advantages of each system, making console exclusive games really shine and show off the strengths of each individual system. Either way, it seems like developers are getting the systems they asked for. I said system too much lol anyway.

Next gen is going to be fucking epic.

 

[JonathanPower]

Cell is much, much stronger with vectorized code than a jaguar. The jaguar will best the PPE at general purpose code. The jaguar is the amd equivalent to intel's atom or arm cores in your smartphones and tablets. Check out some bobcat reviews for a rough idea of what to expect.

I was talking about the single PPE compared to a single jaguar core in running general purpose code such as the OS, not about running vectorized code.

 

[Boss Man]

This was posted on Reddit by a supposed insider:

If both the 720 and PS4 are running AMD CPU's then that is a revolution, what that means is every developer working on consoles and PC will have a grip on the architecture of all three platforms. The 720 is a Windows PC, the PS4 is a Linux PC. I was wondering how Valve were going to convince developers to put money into developing games for a Linux, they don't need to anymore, Sony just did that for them, porting to Linux just became trivial, you shouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years you end up seeing Max Payne 4 released simultaneously for your Windows or Linux PC, Steambox, 720 and PS4.

Does anyone know the basis for this? What would be the parallel between PS4 and Linux development? If this is true, then that's a pretty big trojan horse that they just rolled at Microsoft.

 

[spwolf]

I said it before, but as much as we all hate it, Microsoft is doing the right thing with the next Xbox. Imagine all of the social momentum that will be added to XBL if people are seamlessly uploading clips of their COD kills onto Facebook, for example.

The only way I see Sony's more games-focused approach working out for them is if their stronger first party developers have been doing some serious work and manage produce things that the next Xbox cannot match as soon as the gate opens.

but you can already upload shit to facebook and youtube already... what does it have to do with next gen?

all these things you guys think 720 is doing, have already been done before.

 

[Monas]

the secret sauce is gonna be cell. believe.

I' m so hoping for this. It would be the one to rule them all.
This and the reports of the revival of the OtherOs gets my heart to skip a beat...

But it doesn't make sense in light of the newer "info".

Spoiler

Sigh..

 

[Bombadil]

I said it before, but as much as we all hate it, Microsoft is doing the right thing with the next Xbox. Imagine all of the social momentum that will be added to XBL if people are seamlessly uploading clips of their COD kills onto Facebook, for example.

The only way I see Sony's more games-focused approach working out for them is if their stronger first party developers have been doing some serious work and manage produce things that the next Xbox cannot match as soon as the gate opens.

They probably will.

Games like The Last Guardian, Agent, FFVersus 13 and many more have probably had their development shifted over to the PS4 for early launch title bonanzas. Sony's probably going on an all-out, no-holds-barred, mushroom-cloud-laying, rose-bouquet-for-your-momma, ass-slapping full-frontal, is-she-naked-yes-she-is, I-don't-even-care-if-you-didn't-drop-the soap, assault.

 

[thehypocrite]

The tree-way architecture doesn't make sense, because it makes the silicon expensive and it also makes the software production expensive.

Both of these are no-no's in the next gen.

They have to lower the production cost of games by making the games and their ports easier to develop, or the industry will implode. Sony, MS and Ninty know that.

Meanwhile the PS4's "secret sauce" could be an all purpose SoC like SpursEngine by Toshiba. That could be very likely, would not break the flow of the AMD architecture and could provide the "exotic" part, that is in place with the Sony console legacy.

But 3 different RAM arch's in 3 different pools? no no no no

Maybe those 3 different pools are there as Sony is trying to emulate the final chips they plan to have in the PS4 but they don't have them yet. Remember that dev kits versions are used to emulate the architecture and the target specs.

 

[Graphics Horse]

They probably will.

Games like The Last Guardian, Agent, FFVersus 13 and many more have probably had their development shifted over to the PS4 for early launch title bonanzas. Sony's probably going on an all-out, no-holds-barred, mushroom-cloud-laying, rose-bouquet-for-your-momma, ass-slapping full-frontal, is-she-naked-yes-she-is, I-don't-even-care-if-you-didn't-drop-the soap, assault.

I'd laugh at all of those but I want to believe TLG is still alive

 

[Boss Man]

but you can already upload shit to facebook and youtube already... what does it have to do with next gen?

all these things you guys think 720 is doing, have already been done before.

You can also print 3D objects, but no one is doing it yet. This stuff is not integrated the way it could be yet at all. I'm talking about random people on your Facebook feed who know jackshit about computers pausing a game and pressing two buttons on their Xbox to automatically upload a video of them teabagging someone on Halo.

 

[phosphor112]

There is no blitter. It was a joke some guys were talking about, but somehow it took a life of its own.

Then whats the special blocks we are waiting to hear about?

We know PS4 has some "compute" chip (I personally think its those chips jeff kept talking about. The ones sony patented that can plug into the AMD stuff.) and Durango has.. something else.

Durango is the one with the Wizard Jizz. (please make a picture of that)

 

[alexandros]

New engines will be made for next gen systems like 720 and PS4, thus you won't see new games on PC that have the same graphics for awhile, especially when you factor in the os overhead for Windows and that on PC they have to factor in a ton of different variables when making games to run on as many systems as possible.

Not true. Games will look better on PC from day 1.

 

[Ryoku]

This was posted on Reddit by a supposed insider:

Does anyone know the basis for this? What would be the parallel between PS4 and Linux development? If this is true, then that's a pretty big trojan horse that they just rolled at Microsoft.

I wouldn't look too into it. Reddit is a known Valve circlejerk. He's only speculating.

 

[thehypocrite]

This was posted on Reddit by a supposed insider:

Does anyone know the basis for this? What would be the parallel between PS4 and Linux development? If this is true, then that's a pretty big trojan horse that they just rolled at Microsoft.

Seems to me like a steambox fanboy wishes.

 

[ChosenPredator]

Seems to me like a steambox fanboy wishes.

SteamStation

 

[Monas]

Maybe those 3 different pools are there as Sony is trying to emulate the final chips they plan to have in the PS4 but they don't have them yet. Remember that dev kits versions are used to emulate the architecture and the target specs.

You mean they are using three different RAM specs to emulate the b/w of the finished system?

 

[Ashes]

Indeed.

I guess were im coming from is that on a technical level all these things were once integrated on the same motherboard. I wasn't speaking of wether its a good idea or not, just there was a precedence set for it, by none other than Sony (which ironically probably makes it less likely!)

For the record i dont believe this rumour, in-case i am coming across like that.

I'm filing it under 'possible'. I'll be honest, I preferred the simplicity of what's in the op. RAM/SOC and new controller.

And well, Giggsy, thinking about it, it's like your friend put two and two together, considering Sony bought back those fabs from Toshiba where they make Cell chips, and Toshiba televisions, so you know...

Anyways, welcome to GAF.

 

[mrklaw]

but you can already upload shit to facebook and youtube already... what does it have to do with next gen?

all these things you guys think 720 is doing, have already been done before.

This is why I put up a read about the OS memory. I've scraped the corners of my brain trying to think what might take a lot of memory, and still can't think of any that isn't already supported on consoles with <64MB for an OS, or run on low memory embedded devices like DVRs

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

They probably will.

Games like The Last Guardian, Agent, FFVersus 13 and many more have probably had their development shifted over to the PS4 for early launch title bonanzas. Sony's probably going on an all-out, no-holds-barred, mushroom-cloud-laying, rose-bouquet-for-your-momma, ass-slapping full-frontal, is-she-naked-yes-she-is, I-don't-even-care-if-you-didn't-drop-the soap, assault.

just let it go man, we're never gonna see this stuff.

Spoiler

 

[thehypocrite]

You mean they are using three different RAM specs to emulate the b/w of the finished system?

No, if he's right (I don't think he is) they will have 3 memory pools connected to different chips that carry out specialized tasks, and they have the current setup with a Cell and a SCC until the final chips are available, replacing them for the ones that will be in the final hardware.

 

[i-Lo]

All we can say for sure is that both consoles are going to put out mighty impressive looking games.

If the PS3 can do this:

and the 360 can do this:

Then we're in for a treat from both consoles.

If I can get that kind of fidelity in a game like Fallout or ES next gen then personally, I'd would call it a job very well done. *Imagines a KoTOR (I know I mention this game a lot, but I'm obsessed) with that kind of fidelity*

Talking about KoTOR in particular, it is amazing to think a good story and gameplay made us overlook the technical and/or budget limitation that showed up in the game as "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away lived countless clones save members comprising your party and very important NPCs", the stiff animations and other glaring flaws by today's technological norms. In one generation, we have seen radical shift in visual fidelity, animation quality, inclusion of mo-cap and face-cap (and voice actors having to play them out like in movies, in certain games) etc. People talk of stagnation today, but looking back of how things were just one generation ago and are today, puts things into perspective of the overarching evolution and merging of aspects from other mediums with gaming.

The only problem is this (and this is coming from an individual who is appreciates tech evolution and good graphics): The higher the fidelity, the more magnified the flaws become. For example, I think reviewer's and players' heads would explode if KoTOR 1 was remade with graphical fidelity of today but had retained the old animation system and facsimiles that were the non important NPCs.

 

[ShadowRunner]

I'm filing it under 'possible'. I'll be honest, I preferred the simplicity of what's in the op. RAM/SOC and new controller.

And well, Giggsy, thinking about it, it's like your friend put two and two together, considering Sony bought back those fabs from Toshiba where they make Cell chips, and Toshiba televisions, so you know...

Anyways, welcome to GAF.

If it wasnt for the other rumours, and this was the first leak to come out i think it would have seemed much more believable. So in that way i dont think the ideas beind it are too out there to be plausible. I think the fact we have all these other rumours has put the nail in the coffin on this one though.

 

[gaming_noob]

Then whats the special blocks we are waiting to hear about?

We know PS4 has some "compute" chip (I personally think its those chips jeff kept talking about. The ones sony patented that can plug into the AMD stuff.) and Durango has.. something else.



Durango is the one with the Wizard Jizz. (please make a picture of that)

 

[SneakyStephan]

I meant into ram, sorry if that wasn't clear.

If you have a streaming engine, at some point as you drive 200mph through the city, you'll run out of data in ram so will need to replace it from the HDD (or disc). So that becomes your limiting factor ultimately

(Obviously you could reuse models/textures and just stream in unique data, which would suppose an advantage to Durango as that could hold more reusable assets in ram)

You are right.
We'll have to see how much edram xbox 3 has though, there is a balance to strike between size and bandwidth and so far ps4 looks way better at doing that. (though I really wish it had 2 GB DDR3 in there as well just as anti loading bar cache if nothing else...) while MS threw bandwidth under the bus for size according to these rumors.

xbox3 will probably have less and shorter load times than ps4, somehow consoles end up with weird compromises every time.
You tell someone today that there is a 'quarter all load times on ps3' addon/dlc for sale and most users would jizz their pants.
But just including it right off the bat seems taboo because herp derp those few dollars add up to half a billion over 60 million consoles.

 

[Mascot]

Durango is the one with the Wizard Jizz. (please make a picture of that)

This is waiting for a lazy photoshop...

 

[Monas]

.

Thanks

 

[SneakyStephan]

You can also print 3D objects, but no one is doing it yet. This stuff is not integrated the way it could be yet at all. I'm talking about random people on your Facebook feed who know jackshit about computers pausing a game and pressing two buttons on their Xbox to automatically upload a video of them teabagging someone on Halo.

Fraps and youtube have been around for a long time, trust me the vast majority of pc users doesn't give a fuck about uploading gameplay videos for their friends.
Oh and the 1 percent of users who upload to twitch (of which maybe 1 percent gets more than 3 viewers isn't going to make MS jump out of their seats.

Also twitch is properly integrated and now some primitive vaporware style 3d printing thing.

 

[thehypocrite]

Special Sauce is a marketing term for "custom things that I have no details on"

 

[Bombadil]

If I can get that kind of fidelity in a game like Fallout or ES next gen then personally, I'd would call it a job very well done. *Imagines a KoTOR (I know I mention this game a lot, but I'm obsessed) with that kind of fidelity*

Talking about KoTOR in particular, it is amazing to think a good story and gameplay made us overlook the technical and/or budget limitation that showed up in the game as "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away lived countless clones save members comprising your party and very important NPCs", the stiff animations and other glaring flaws by today's technological norms. In one generation, we have seen radical shift in visual fidelity, animation quality, inclusion of mo-cap and face-cap (and voice actors having to play them out like in movies, in certain games) etc. People talk of stagnation today, but looking back of how things were just one generation ago and are today, puts things into perspective of the overarching evolution and merging of aspects from other mediums with gaming.

The only problem is this (and this is coming from an individual who is appreciates tech evolution and good graphics): The higher the fidelity, the more magnified the flaws become. For example, I think reviewer's and players' heads would explode if KoTOR 1 was remade with graphical fidelity of today but had retained the old animation system and facsimiles that were the non important NPCs.

I love Kotor, too. I tried playing it again last summer and the experience was jarring. For one thing, there seemed to be some GUI issues when playing it on 360. For another, I couldn't stand the visuals.

I wouldn't trust Bioware to remake it again or make a proper sequel. Something about them has changed. They must have lost some talent.

 

[JonathanPower]

The better question would be is if a streamroller clocked at 3.2ghz with 4 cores is better than a jaguar clocked at 1.6ghz with 8 cores in a closed console.

I know streamroller takes a lot more heat, but an 8 core jaguar is unprecedented. I wish a dev could give us more insight.



Again, it was heavily rumored that Sony was going with GDDR5/fast ram and vgleaks already leaked months ago that Sony was considering between 2-4gig ram.

However, these cores may be highly customized for Xbox720/PS4 and thus not directly comparable to traditional jaguar cores.