SinCityAssassin
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Eurogamer: Did Nintendo download a Mario ROM and sell it back to us?
- Thread starter allintospace
- Start date
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Starwolf_UK
Member
I assumed everyone had seen the Simpsons episode where the gif came from. A summary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H27rfr59RiE
The joke is they didn't pay and just trashed the place.
Downloading a ROM is easier.
I was aware? Next you're gonna say it doesn't work because AM2R ain't an actual Nintendo game. No shit.
Danthrax
Batteries the CRISIS!
In that hypothetical, yeah, I guess they would be. I took the suggestion that Nintendo would buy out pirates who sell ROMs to be a joke, though.
InfiniteCombo
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I'm not all that hung up on the fact that they downloaded the ROM. It's their IP, they can do what they want with it.
What I'm hung up with is the implications:
1. This is hypocritical. Nintendo has voiced a fairly hard stance against emulation and piracy in the past. This move would be the equivalent of Metallica releasing a digital remaster of one of their albums... where the tracks were just downloaded from Napster.
2. This may be indicative of the "level of effort" Nintendo is putting towards Virtual Console. If they can't be bothered to get an in-house ROM and just lazily get an outside one, why worry about stuff like dark filters, input lag, etc in your emulation?
What I'm hung up with is the implications:
1. This is hypocritical. Nintendo has voiced a fairly hard stance against emulation and piracy in the past. This move would be the equivalent of Metallica releasing a digital remaster of one of their albums... where the tracks were just downloaded from Napster.
2. This may be indicative of the "level of effort" Nintendo is putting towards Virtual Console. If they can't be bothered to get an in-house ROM and just lazily get an outside one, why worry about stuff like dark filters, input lag, etc in your emulation?
Funny how some people are attempting to use this against Nintendo. I'm sure some of those same people also support the downloading of ROMs. I'm not here to argue for/or against it, but I can't help but point out the newly developed logic:
Pirates can sell Nintendo's IP, but Nintendo can't.
Sounds crazy when you say it like that, but it's essentially what some are - unknowingly? - implying.
Pirates can sell Nintendo's IP, but Nintendo can't.
Sounds crazy when you say it like that, but it's essentially what some are - unknowingly? - implying.
hemo memo
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I think Nintendo has every right to sell their own IP however they want. If they are selling roms ripped by other people, they still are absolutely in the right.
It just makes them look stupid, when apparently even for them it was more convenient to just get the ROM.
giant_frying_pan
Member
Your Metallica example implies additional work has been done but they're passing off old rips as a new product. That isn't the same as this.
No issue with your 2nd point though.
But ultimately, this is a story making people angry when they don't really have any cause to be. The term 'ROM' has become synonymous with lower value, mainly due to piracy.
Reila
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Wishmaster92
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Spiral Insanity
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That particular value judgement has nothing to do with Virtual Console.
This is nothing Nintendo can solve. They won't figure out how to prevent piracy. They don't have to.
Pirates will pirate. Just as they do for every other system or media. Nintendo shouldn't try to prevent those people from doing what they want, and that shouldn't matter in how they approach VC this generation.
Lunarwhale
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I think the precedent is more concerning than anything. There are loads of bad dumps out there. I don't even mean edited or altered - I mean the process or tools used were screwy and it resulted in damaging the ROM in some way. No reason why Nintendo can't do the bare minimum for preservation or quality assurance and just nab one from their own vault. Without a master copy to compare against, any methods of comparison would result in nothing.
Then again, this seems less like a decision made in a meeting, more like an employee not knowing proper procedure.
Then again, this seems less like a decision made in a meeting, more like an employee not knowing proper procedure.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
I find this thread hilarious. Nintendo owns the code, they own the game, they own every part of that piece of software. They can do with it as they please. We as consumers own the right to play that piece of software in the form it was originally sold to us, unless NIntendo grants us the right to use it differently.
That's what a lot fail to understand. When you buy a game, you are only buying the right to play that game in the manner it was presented. By ripping the game you are altering the manner of presentation. We don't have to like it, but that's the way it is.
It really doesn't matter where Nintendo got the ROM from since they own the code anyways.
I find it highly likely when it came time to emulate the software the iNes header was an established solution to a specific problem. Why re-invent the wheel.
That's what a lot fail to understand. When you buy a game, you are only buying the right to play that game in the manner it was presented. By ripping the game you are altering the manner of presentation. We don't have to like it, but that's the way it is.
It really doesn't matter where Nintendo got the ROM from since they own the code anyways.
I find it highly likely when it came time to emulate the software the iNes header was an established solution to a specific problem. Why re-invent the wheel.
I disagree.
They should offer a better product.
Once they cat is out of the bag, they should adapt to that new reality. I mean 50 years from now, they will still be charging to download Super Mario Bro's again? On whatever new device?
ZOONAMI
Junior Member
Why is this an issue? It's their IP.
They should download all the roms, buy dolphin, and build it into a virtual console for PC, and sell us all the roms.
They should download all the roms, buy dolphin, and build it into a virtual console for PC, and sell us all the roms.
The Hermit
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So a ROM file extension is the same as one created in 1996 (bear in mind this doesn't mean that they're running iNES on the Wii) it's a ROM, and most likely they'd come to the same solution that most people would when creating a ROM file from a physical ROM. They still developed and own the rights to the game, it's still their software to distribute one way or another.
I honestly, other than for people to be able to do a "gotcha" to Nintendo, see how this is even really interesting.
I honestly, other than for people to be able to do a "gotcha" to Nintendo, see how this is even really interesting.
Fbh
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Honestly, I don't think the point here is if Nintendo did something wrong.
It's their IP and they can do whatever they want with it. And the end result for the consumer is literally the same.
But I think it's an interesting point of discussion in terms of the value of ROMS and emulation as a way to preserve games.
Because publicly, companies like Nintendo are against ROMS and emulation of any kind in any form. Yet with actions like these they are basically admitting how useful and valuable it can be
It's their IP and they can do whatever they want with it. And the end result for the consumer is literally the same.
But I think it's an interesting point of discussion in terms of the value of ROMS and emulation as a way to preserve games.
Because publicly, companies like Nintendo are against ROMS and emulation of any kind in any form. Yet with actions like these they are basically admitting how useful and valuable it can be
pixelation
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x3sphere
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Couldn't they have dumped it themselves but did it the same way? Wouldn't this result in the exact same file?
I wouldn't be surprised if they just pulled it off the internet though, but it's not something that bothers me really.
I wouldn't be surprised if they just pulled it off the internet though, but it's not something that bothers me really.
meanspartan
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fabricated backlash
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Audioboxer
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Unethical at worst. Bigger issue is whoever they outsource this too, how much under the hood testing goes on? ROMs can be modified lol.
hemo memo
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Are we even sure they do all that much QA? I mean apparently they either don't know what their tool actually does when it dumps a ROM or they're too overworked/uncaring to actually go in and fix alterations made to the game by said too. Or in the worst case, they actually just use ROMs that have been previously ripped by others. It's not like this was hidden deep within the code, this was right in the header. It just seems a little worrying for the end user if things can sneak in like this.
Nintendo does extensive QA in everything they release and this is certainly no exception. Do you think they just pick up a ROM and put it in the shop, call it a day and hope it doesn't brick consoles or bug badly? What about the games they alter (and they altered many), do you think they don't even test those?
So they left the iNES headers there, I don't know why, but it certainly has no consequences to the user and has nothing to do with QA.
DangerMouse
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Dr. Zoidberg
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There's nothing to worry about. Even if something did slip through testing, it would be pulled and a corrected version would be put up and the existing version patched. Why try to pretend that there is some serious concern for end-users here? This topic is primarily about wagging our fingers in Nintendo's face and calling them hypocrites and/or justifying having a downloaded ROM collection.
Crazyorloco
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it's still their game lol
So true. I have no idea what the heck is going on. I guess this is giving them publicity though. Bad publicity or not. It's promoting them.
So true. I have no idea what the heck is going on. I guess this is giving them publicity though. Bad publicity or not. It's promoting them.
hemo memo
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Guys watch the GDC talk about the subject it's great
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023470/-It-s-Just-Emulation
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023470/-It-s-Just-Emulation
BibiMaghoo
Member
This kind of legitimises the original upload of the file to a ROM site, which is obviously bad for Nintendo. It is a pretty stupid thing to do. The uploader can now claim that Nintendo did not attempt to protect its copyright of the data (by seeking it's removal when found), and further used the site and the upload themselves for sales and profit.
Quite incredible really.
Quite incredible really.
If you watched video, they reference the original GDC talk from Frank Cifaldi along with some follow up with the iNES creator.
So yea, it's not new but I think it's worth bringing up again when we're possibly about to get into the VC rigmarole again with the Switch.
While it would be interesting to see if every game had the same header, read on:
His programming work is irrelevant, even Eurogamer concedes that Nintendo made their own emulator. The header being in a file created by Nintendo doesn't imply they used his software or anything other than a standard description of where everything goes in the file.
They didn't ever reference their file as 'ines' so it's not actionable as a trademark.
Copyright is unlikely as well because it's a file format derived from a work that already had a Nintendo Copyright.
I don't believe the file format was patented, but welcoming evidence to the contrary.
http://www.fileformat.info/mirror/egff/ch08_09.htm
It actually gets pretty dicey, and as far as Nintendo owing him a slice of the pie for a file format is kind of outrageous. Do you want to pay people for using JPG or PNG ? (not exactly a corollary, but using it as a device to think about the idea of it.)
Elaugaufein
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Actually now that I think about it Isn't the iNES header (or an equivalent) necessary for NES emulation* ? IIRC NES cart dumps don't contain enough information themselves.
*That or building a gigantic lookup table into your emulator.
*That or building a gigantic lookup table into your emulator.
Exactly, it's likely every single rom contains this type of header, because they'd need a differentiation for each chip in the cartridge.
EDIT: every single NES rom file on PC
jediyoshi
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Every single one of those companies were incapable of pulling from their internal archives and instead had to resort to downloading user created, distinct ROMs? Source?
ScientificPizza
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I remember when I got to the end of the third castle and Toad told me to "fuck off cos the princess ain't here".
Nintendo testers were clearly being lazy and playing through the game using warp zones.
Elaugaufein
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It's actually pretty likely, yeah. Internal archives are done using whatever the storage tech at the time was, which means accessing them today is often pretty difficult even assuming that there was no bit rot or natural disasters or HQ moves or misfiling accidents or space reuse that resulted in them being lost sometime around 2005. It's actually pretty well documented that there's a lot of games were the original copies / source code are forever lost even for PC games.
(As far as MAME goes there's actually several companies that granted MAME permission to distribute their stuff from the pre-IBM PC era).
GDJustin
stuck my tongue deep inside Atlus' cookies
Wouldn't surprise me at all. Preservation of game code and assets is still not a priority within big companies today, and especially wasn't way back in the 80s.
There are horror stories about the original code to some of the biggest, most beloved arcade games of all time being completely lost and unrecoverable.
You'd be surprised. Nintendo is a huge company, but it isn't "NINTENDO - AN INTERNATIONAL VIDEO GAME COMPANY" packaging up and re-selling these ROMs. It's likely 1-2 dudes doing all of it - documentation, programming the art and assets in the Buy pages, working with International partners, etc. The bench is never as deep at these companies as people think it is. If someone's out sick or leaves their job, work like this can fall onto the desk of someone that's barely cross-trained on it.
Mario 1 needs to be re-released on the VC. Employee A asks employees B, C, and D about the original Mario 1 code. They're all like "God... I'm not even sure. The original? We might have the hardware to dump the data on the cart... ask employees E, F, and G." He asks them, and they aren't positive either.
Now employee A is up against deadline. So... he downloads a ROM, does his best to check that its contents are legit, and moves on to the next game he needs to prep.
Stuff like this happens a lot. There are often no archives. See also: The Okami Wii box art having an IGN watermark on the cover since they nabbed the image from Google Image Search.
Edit: I've now watched the second half of this video and it looks like they're saying close to the exact scenario I sketched out here.
Edit 2: Not to mention that if a company DID get serious about that code preservation, depending on when they got serious about it, the back ups might be hard to access. They could be on old disks or mainframes or other hardware that's hard to access with 2016 tech. This work is expensive and time consuming, and when making budgets for the year, it's an easy thing to cut - since it generates $0 in direct revenue.
There are horror stories about the original code to some of the biggest, most beloved arcade games of all time being completely lost and unrecoverable.
You'd be surprised. Nintendo is a huge company, but it isn't "NINTENDO - AN INTERNATIONAL VIDEO GAME COMPANY" packaging up and re-selling these ROMs. It's likely 1-2 dudes doing all of it - documentation, programming the art and assets in the Buy pages, working with International partners, etc. The bench is never as deep at these companies as people think it is. If someone's out sick or leaves their job, work like this can fall onto the desk of someone that's barely cross-trained on it.
Mario 1 needs to be re-released on the VC. Employee A asks employees B, C, and D about the original Mario 1 code. They're all like "God... I'm not even sure. The original? We might have the hardware to dump the data on the cart... ask employees E, F, and G." He asks them, and they aren't positive either.
Now employee A is up against deadline. So... he downloads a ROM, does his best to check that its contents are legit, and moves on to the next game he needs to prep.
Stuff like this happens a lot. There are often no archives. See also: The Okami Wii box art having an IGN watermark on the cover since they nabbed the image from Google Image Search.
Edit: I've now watched the second half of this video and it looks like they're saying close to the exact scenario I sketched out here.
Edit 2: Not to mention that if a company DID get serious about that code preservation, depending on when they got serious about it, the back ups might be hard to access. They could be on old disks or mainframes or other hardware that's hard to access with 2016 tech. This work is expensive and time consuming, and when making budgets for the year, it's an easy thing to cut - since it generates $0 in direct revenue.
Yes, but the point is that Nintendo used the exact same format. This isn't coincidence. I'm not saying they downloaded the ROM, but if they didn't they made an effort to use the exact same header as the "illegal" emulators do.