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Eurogamer Source: Nintendo's Wii U toolchain is "fighting us every step of the way"

Spiegel

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Feb 20, 2007
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re: Bluray drive

In the GB stream it felt slower than the one on the PS3. I know it isn't, technically, but load times seemed longer.

Has anyone tested both drives with the same game?
 

Fourth Storm

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Feb 17, 2006
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The sad thing is this is absolutely true. Someone claiming to be a developer could say that his head was made out of styrofoam and as long as he makes a negative claim regarding WiiU he'd be seen as a solid guy and a reliable source.

Didn't Ideaman say that some devs had severely crippled their Wii U games before making certain optimizations? From how the "Anonymous Coward" post reads, it seems like he (she?) is telling the truth but perhaps sucks at writing Wii U code. Not that it's an easy task...
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
Jul 20, 2009
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Didn't Ideaman say that some devs had severely crippled their Wii U games before making certain optimizations? From how the "Anonymous Coward" post reads, it seems like he (she?) is telling the truth but perhaps sucks at writing Wii U code. Not that it's an easy task...

Yeah, I can see that. But people here are even taking the "accessing the hard drive on the Xbox360 was faster than the RAM on the WiiU" assessment seriously. And Not even I suck that much at writing code. :eek:
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
Jun 7, 2004
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I think they mean "in time for sustained third party support" judging by the context of the entire statement, as opposed to "will they improve over time".
Seems like a loaded question. The answer to that lies in the answer to this: is there a cut off where 3rd parties will no longer support the U, only considering the competition? I get the impression that the source believes it. That makes me question the article and the source.
 

MadeInBeats

Banned
Mar 25, 2012
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Interesting. If the OS is in the state it is, makes sense other software will need work too. Saying that, you'd think they'd be bending over backwards to get developer tools up to scratch.

Throws another cat amongst the 'dodgy ports' discussion loft house.
 

Sho_Nuff82

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Jan 2, 2007
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The second quote pretty much seals the deal: From that comment as well as others, I don't think people should expect much improved ports in the future, 360 and PS3 will likely continue to be where it's at for consoles.

Was quote 2 posted before anandtech's teardown? If so, Damn.
 

ozfunghi

Member
Jun 19, 2010
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The cache on the chip is also slow. We had tested out memory bandwidth between cache and main memory on the xbox360 and the WiiU. The main memory access on the Xbox360 is about 2x-4x times as fast as accesses the cache on the WiiU. Yes I mean that the external to the chip RAM on the Xbox360 is faster than the cache memory on the WiiU. I don't remember the full results but I think we figured out accessing the hard drive on the Xbox360 was faster than the RAM on the WiiU too.

Well, there is only one appropriate way to respond to that statement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGwjp07oO8U&t=0m4s
 
Seems like a loaded question. The answer to that lies in the answer to this: is there a cut off where 3rd parties will no longer support the U, only considering the competition? I get the impression that the source believes it. That makes me question the article and the source.

The questions were written by the author of the story, not the source.
 

Barack Lesnar

Banned
Jun 7, 2010
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The Espresso chip doesn't have any sort of vector processing. It does have paired singles, but that's a pain, a real pain to use. The floating point registers are 64 bit doubles, so when people talk about paired singles I assumed you split the register in two. No the registers are actually 96 bits wide, its actually a double and a single. To load it you have to load in your single, do a merge operation to move that single to the upper 32 bits, and load in your second one. This makes the stacks explode, because to save a floating point register in the callee takes three operations, and 12 bytes no matter what.
This seriously sounds like another language. If he's not a dev he's a really, really good fake.
 

freddy

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Jun 7, 2007
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Ahh, so it's back to anonymous developers now. Pardon me if I chuckle a bit. The Op has an ounce of credibility but the Slashdot quotes sent it into farce territory.
 

Bonk

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Jun 8, 2004
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If you take every comment posted here at face value, it means one thing (and to me one thing only): coding for Wii U is a whole lot different than coding for the other machines and it helps to have been coding on Wii before to get the full potential of the console.

Small developers might be better at adapting to this (or might be using unity) than the big studios because they are more flexible in their approach. Big studios will have their standard procedures in place to stay organized which makes it harder for them to adapt.

This is surely not the best news in itself but to me it seems that the early launch ports mostly not being that drastically behind their console counterparts points to that not being such a big problem in the long run. I guess the early sales of WiiU games will be the decisive factor...
 

JohnsonUT

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Aug 3, 2006
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A little off topic, but this thread has me thinking. When Nintendo puts together dev kits, do they make there own compiler, does IBM supply supply a power pc compiler with their chip, or is farmed to a third party?
 

v1oz

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Apr 11, 2010
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This seriously sounds like another language. If he's not a dev he's a really, really good fake.
He might not be John Carmack but he seems to know what he's talking about. I'd blame bad tools and unfamiliarity with the hardware as the reason for the worse than expected memory performance on the tests they were running. It will take time for them to optimize their code for the system.

Overall the reception from developers about the Wii U has been either been lukewarm or entirely negative. Well apart from a few indie devs who are used to working on weaker hardware platforms.
 

Gospel

Parmesan et Romano
Dec 22, 2008
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Save us, High Voltage Software. SAVE US

all youse guys are gonna eat your words when Conduit 3 exclusively for the Wii U comes out.
 

The Boat

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Sep 22, 2010
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This seriously sounds like another language. If he's not a dev he's a really, really good fake.

There's nothing out of this world in what he's saying, when I was 18/19 I would've understood that when I was studying a related subject. Now I just kinda understand it :p
Developers aren't magical creatures that know everything and are always right.
 

MadeInBeats

Banned
Mar 25, 2012
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Overall the reception from developers about the Wii U has been either been lukewarm or entirely negative. Well apart from a few indie devs who are used to working on weaker hardware platforms.

Please. Have day off will you, Son, it's embarrassing now.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
Jun 10, 2011
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Save us, High Voltage Software. SAVE US

all youse guys are gonna eat your words when Conduit 3 exclusively for the Wii U comes out.

Considering the first 2 looked and played like hot garbage I'm not sure they can save anything outside of money by stopping game development.
 

Akey

Banned
May 7, 2012
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New tools are hard to work with at first....shocking?

Not all ports are awful on the wii u....people that do not even have a wii u seem ok with posting the opposite.

Sony is planning on release a new console next year? When did they say this?
 

heyf00L

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Jan 3, 2011
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Well, there is only one appropriate way to respond to that statement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGwjp07oO8U&t=0m4s

I hope you're laughing because it's so dumb. There is no way (at all) that any main memory is faster than a chip's cache. Likewise, there is no way (at all) that accessing a hard drive is faster than accessing main memory.

This seriously sounds like another language. If he's not a dev he's a really, really good fake.

Are we sure that Espresso does not have vector processors (SIMD)? I'm not sure if devs were expecting the addition of vector processors on the Wii U, but at any rate it's best to do such math on the GPU anyway (mostly graphics and physics operations). Now whether or not developers actually do that is another thing. They don't intentionally on the PS3 because the CELL is good at it and the GPU is weak. I don't really see this as being a big deal.
 

MadeInBeats

Banned
Mar 25, 2012
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It is my day off. Nothing embarrassing apart from your own denial with regards to the Wii U the hardware. You are leaning on false hopes.

Yeah mate, thanks for your wise words, I'll just file'em in the bin - the bin I sometimes take a dump in when I'm feelin' exotic.
 

H_Prestige

Banned
Aug 2, 2008
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Aren't 360 and Vita really easy to develop for? Seems like Nintendo doesn't have much of an excuse here.
 

edible_candle

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Jun 22, 2007
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Save us, High Voltage Software. SAVE US

all youse guys are gonna eat your words when Conduit 3 exclusively for the Wii U comes out.

Yes, I also fully expect High Voltage to blow Nintendo and all other third party developers out of the water. What with their high budgets and amazing art direction that doesn't involve throwing as many shiny things on stuff as possible and all.
 

wsippel

Banned
May 25, 2006
14,534
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Yeah, the toolchain probably is shit. I've noticed some complaints digging. Most of it can be attributed to its weirdness, but some of it might be very real.


Quite a few people claimed Trine for Wii U to be missing light effects compared to the 360 version - not the PC port.
That's interesting, considering one of the Frozenbyte dudes wrote on GAF that the Wii U version was, in fact, more advanced than the PS3 or 360 versions. A bit closer to the PC version. And Frozenbyte also went on record and stated that Goblin Menace probably wouldn't run well on PS3 and 360 without some downsizing, which he said was one of the reasons it's a Wii U at this point.

It's even more interesting once you realize that Trine 2 is the only multiplatform game available on Wii U that uses deferred shading - a technology commonly considered too bandwidth heavy for multiplatform development on last generation systems (PS3/ 360). And Wii U is supposedly gimped in the bandwidth department. Or is it?