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[Captain Toad]

Spoilers: every videogame gets scaled back during development due to hardware constraints.

Um, no. 99% of games come nowhere close to maximizing the hardware it runs on or even attempts to.

 

[MOTM]

We've seen these threads before and they always end the same way. One side looks at the evidence, facts and data and draw logical conclusions. The other side puts their fingers in their ears and say "Nah nah nah I can't hear you, this is all concern and random and pinch of salt nah nah nah"

Halo: Infinite

• Showed a trailer in 2019 that was meant to be in game. It wasn't
• Game gets delayed a year
• Game launches feature light
• Game has missing features to this day

Hellblade 2

• Trailer is CGI. Microsoft said it was in game
• Trailer turns out to be CGI
• Microsoft said Hellblade was in production, using UE5, which wasn't even out
• Game didn't enter production until 12 months after Microsoft said it was

Starfield

• Microsoft stated it would release on time, even doubling down on the release date
• Shows a lack of footage and instead releases artwork
• Community says it will be delayed. Microsoft say "no"
• Game get delayed

Redfall

• Little information about the game
• Microsoft said it will release on time
• Microsoft said the game is now delayed

Forza 5

• Was supposed to launch with RT and 60fps
• Game launches with RT in photo mode and garage
• Only runs at 30fps.

Now? Rumors of fable being delayed with piss-poor excuses of lack of experience - which is objectively false, and the 'fans' and community state the game isn't being delayed?

When are people going to seriously ask what the hell is going on with the xbox division? Even the terrible reveal of the xbone, and the xbone itself, doesn't compare to how shitty the division is now and I'm an xbox fan of 20+ years. You can enjoy a football team, but still hate the direction the management is taking it (See Manchester United in the UK for example).

Phil Spencer needs to be replaced. Turning away Marvel, Letting insomniac go, mismanagement of Halo, Hellblade, Forza, Starfield and now Fable, show's he has no clue about the industry. The Xbox Series is his first console launch and he has nothing to show for it. And if anyone thinks it's acceptable to hand-wave away the failures because "publisher of the year", then give your head a wobble, because you're being bamboozled.

There's no shame in wanting better.

Lame, fake and trying too hard.

Can’t believe you took all that time to write down that mental diarrhea.

 

[mckmas8808]

They need to bring back Peter Molyneux.

Some people may laugh at this post, but I agree with it.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

We've seen these threads before and they always end the same way. One side looks at the evidence, facts and data and draw logical conclusions. The other side puts their fingers in their ears and say "Nah nah nah I can't hear you, this is all concern and random and pinch of salt nah nah nah"

Halo: Infinite

• Showed a trailer in 2019 that was meant to be in game. It wasn't
• Game gets delayed a year
• Game launches feature light
• Game has missing features to this day

Hellblade 2

• Trailer is CGI. Microsoft said it was in game
• Trailer turns out to be CGI
• Microsoft said Hellblade was in production, using UE5, which wasn't even out
• Game didn't enter production until 12 months after Microsoft said it was

Starfield

• Microsoft stated it would release on time, even doubling down on the release date
• Shows a lack of footage and instead releases artwork
• Community says it will be delayed. Microsoft say "no"
• Game get delayed

Redfall

• Little information about the game
• Microsoft said it will release on time
• Microsoft said the game is now delayed

Forza 5

• Was supposed to launch with RT and 60fps
• Game launches with RT in photo mode and garage
• Only runs at 30fps.

Now? Rumors of fable being delayed with piss-poor excuses of lack of experience - which is objectively false, and the 'fans' and community state the game isn't being delayed?

When are people going to seriously ask what the hell is going on with the xbox division? Even the terrible reveal of the xbone, and the xbone itself, doesn't compare to how shitty the division is now and I'm an xbox fan of 20+ years. You can enjoy a football team, but still hate the direction the management is taking it (See Manchester United in the UK for example).

Phil Spencer needs to be replaced. Turning away Marvel, Letting insomniac go, mismanagement of Halo, Hellblade, Forza, Starfield and now Fable, show's he has no clue about the industry. The Xbox Series is his first console launch and he has nothing to show for it. And if anyone thinks it's acceptable to hand-wave away the failures because "publisher of the year", then give your head a wobble, because you're being bamboozled.

There's no shame in wanting better.

How you put so much effort into a blatantly wrong post? With this amount of effort you could have at least gotten smth accidentally right.

2. how do you delay a game that has no release date?

 

[Ozriel]

Not to discredit Playground or anything, but were they the best choice for Fable?

Some use Guerrilla as a good example, but Killzone and Horizon are still within the same action genre, although completely different.
But Fable and Forza? That would require a huge change not only in mechanics but also in programing, world and level design, quest design etc. etc.

It helps to read the thread before posting.

If you had, you’d have read that they pitched it to MS, and part of the pitch involved them hiring experienced devs to bring more of the required expertise in for the project.

There’s also other examples of devs pivoting to different genres. Yes, the Guerilla example exists, but Double Fine had never made a fighting game before Killer Instinct. And I challenge you to point out the common elements between A Plague’s Tale and Microsoft Flight Simulator. Both made by Asobo.

Some people may laugh at this post, but I agree with it.

It’s you, in an xbox thread. No surprise about this endorsement

 

[mckmas8808]

It helps to read the thread before posting.

If you had, you’d have read that they pitched it to MS, and part of the pitch involved them hiring experienced devs to bring more of the required expertise in for the project.

There’s also other examples of devs pivoting to different genres. Yes, the Guerilla example exists, but Double Fine had never made a fighting game before Killer Instinct. And I challenge you to point out the common elements between A Plague’s Tale and Microsoft Flight Simulator. Both made by Asobo.




It’s you, in an xbox thread. No surprise about this endorsement

I actually think highly of Peter Molyneux. He just needs a guiding hand. I'm always super-pro Mega Creator when those types of creatives have a true vision. It's the bland (lets throw everything at the wall and see what stick) stuff that I find boring!

 

[Negotiator101]

2024? If it's even more delayed than expected. Likely 2027 or 2028.

No chance it releases that far out, 2024 or 25 latest. You never know we may be shown something on the 12th and this thread can die.

 

[Topher]

It’s you, in an xbox thread. No surprise about this endorsement

I don't think there is anything wrong with that endorsement. Fable 2 was my favorite Xbox 360 game. For all the negatives about the guy, he made some great games.

 

[The Eradicator]

That's probably why they hired a ton of staff who have experience making RPGs including people who worked on previous Fable games.

And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.

 

[Black_Stride]

And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.

Playground Studio 2 is basically a new studio.
If its filled with people who have RPG experience how is it any different than when Playground Main was setup by devs who had experience with making racing games but had never actually made any racing games together?
You are acting like Playground Studio 2 is the same team that works on Forza Horizon.
Studio 2 have basically been setup since 2017.

 

[Topher]

And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.

And before Forza Horizon, Playground Games had not made a single game. How did they make one of the world's most popular racers without already having experience making racers? Simple. They hired people who did. For Fable, Playground create an entirely new, separate studio to make non-racing open world games and hired people with experience doing just that.

As to your plumbing vs electrician analogy, many companies offer both plumbing and electrician services. They hire plumbers for the plumbing side of the business and electricians for the electrician side. Pretty much the point I was making.

The selection to use the same engine is a separate issue.

 

[Kimahri]

There’s also other examples of devs pivoting to different genres. Yes, the Guerilla example exists, but Double Fine had never made a fighting game before Killer Instinct. And I challenge you to point out the common elements between A Plague’s Tale and Microsoft Flight Simulator. Both made by Asobo.

I think you mean Double HELIX and studio bought and killed by Amazon

And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.

Are you of the belief that devs live in a vacuum? that Devs who make racing games have only ever worked on racing games, only play racing games, and will never move beyond that? Is it fathomable to you that someone working on Forza might have come there from a different company where they worked on wildly different genres? Is it possible that someone who tunes digital cars for a living enjoys reading Discworld novels and preparing Dungeons & Dragons sessions as a DM on his spare time?

Is it, and please be honest now, in any way possible that game devs have the ability to do more than just that one thing they might be known for?

 

[yamaci17]

 

[The Eradicator]

And before Forza Horizon, Playground Games had not made a single game. How did they make one of the world's most popular racers without already having experience making racers? Simple. They hired people who did. For Fable, Playground create an entirely new, separate studio to make non-racing open world games and hired people with experience doing just that.

As to your plumbing vs electrician analogy, many companies offer both plumbing and electrician services. They hire plumbers for the plumbing side of the business and electricians for the electrician side. Pretty much the point I was making.

The selection to use the same engine is a separate issue.

I feel like you are going past the point I'm making, which is that if MS wanted to reboot Fable, they had several other better studios to tap for the project. They have legitimate RPG makers in-house now. My point is that Playground being chosen was a dumb move by MS.

Tell me one other studio that transitioned from making only racers, or fighters, or sports games, into making a successful story-based RPG.

Hiring some new staff doesn't totally change everything. And the engine transition is just one example of why using Playground was a poor decision. Why even bother trying to use that type of engine for a story based game? It reminds me of how EA wanted every single game running on one engine, and some devs found that to be a nightmare. Same thing seems to be happening with Fable now.

I honestly don't understand the amount faith being placed in Playground, especially when you have 3 or 4 actual RPG studios under the MS banner.

 

[Ozriel]

And that seems to be helping them in what way? If I need a plumber to fix my toilet, I don't call an electrical company to fix it, and hope that they hire a competent plumber to fix it. I call a plumber. MS should have given the Fable project to a studio with some kind of RPG expertise, or at least some kind of story based game. I think Playground was the dumbest choice they could have made tbh. Out of all their studios, that is the LAST one I would have given Fable to. They can hire whoever they want, but you need more than a few new writers to make an RPG. For example, there's been several rumors that they are having engine trouble. That shouldn't be shocking, considering that they've been only working on racers until now.

The amusing thing is that your post history has you extremely skeptical of ‘insiders’, especially those who have a history of posting positive xbox rumors.

And now here you are, eagerly swallowing this sketchy rumor about Fable all because it fits your strange belief that game developers can’t pivot to different genres.

And no, it’s not just ‘writers’ they hired. They’ve brought in folks from Rockstar, BioWare, Rocksteady, Guerilla Games etc. lots of experience brought in-house.

I’m looking forward to playing it when it arrives.

 

[Topher]

I feel like you are going past the point I'm making, which is that if MS wanted to reboot Fable, they had several other better studios to tap for the project. They have legitimate RPG makers in-house now. My point is that Playground being chosen was a dumb move by MS.

Tell me one other studio that transitioned from making only racers, or fighters, or sports games, into making a successful story-based RPG.

Hiring some new staff doesn't totally change everything. And the engine transition is just one example of why using Playground was a poor decision. Why even bother trying to use that type of engine for a story based game? It reminds me of how EA wanted every single game running on one engine, and some devs found that to be a nightmare. Same thing seems to be happening with Fable now.

I honestly don't understand the amount faith being placed in Playground, especially when you have 3 or 4 actual RPG studios under the MS banner.

Microsoft didn't have all those studios in 2017 when they started funding Playground's second studio to create open world RPGs. And Playground didn't just "hire some new staff". They created an entirely new studio with entirely new leadership.

Guerrilla Games had never made an open world RPG before Horizon. So they brought in open world RPG vets and were able to make the game. Same difference.

It remains to be seen if Playground will be successful in retooling their engine for Fable. That's really the only controversial decision made here, imo.

 

[Black_Stride]

I feel like you are going past the point I'm making, which is that if MS wanted to reboot Fable, they had several other better studios to tap for the project. They have legitimate RPG makers in-house now. My point is that Playground being chosen was a dumb move by MS.

Tell me one other studio that transitioned from making only racers, or fighters, or sports games, into making a successful story-based RPG.

Hiring some new staff doesn't totally change everything. And the engine transition is just one example of why using Playground was a poor decision. Why even bother trying to use that type of engine for a story based game? It reminds me of how EA wanted every single game running on one engine, and some devs found that to be a nightmare. Same thing seems to be happening with Fable now.

I honestly don't understand the amount faith being placed in Playground, especially when you have 3 or 4 actual RPG studios under the MS banner.

Playground pitched to Microsoft for the project.
They initially just wanted to make an Open World RPG....the Fable IP was just sitting so why not call the project Fable.

MS must have seen something good in whatever prototype Playground presented.
And they likely had their hiring spree shortly before the pitch, so MS could see that Studio 2 had the talent to make an open world RPG likely also just the trust the studio has generated after releasing nothing but bangers gave them a near blank check.

If Playground decided to use ForzaTech that was their prerogative MS wouldnt force an engine on them......if they moved to Unreal (I still dont know what engine Fable is running on but everyone seems to have "insider" knowledge about that), then again its their prerogative.

Why is this situation any different to when Playground was founded? Hire people with experience making a style of game then make said style of game.
Studio 2 is the RPG studio, Studio Main is the Racing game studio.

Maybe it would have been easier for you to stomach if Studio two was named EatCrow Studios instead of Playground? Cuz at the end of the day most studios that exceed 200 staff generally have 2 or even more teams working concurrently.
Studio two has wanted an open world RPG so MS gave them an open world RPG.
They werent/arent being forced to use any particular engine, they are free to choose....if they chose ForzaTech theres a reason for that, if they chose Unreal, theres a reason for that too.

 

[Ozriel]

Microsoft didn't have all those studios in 2017 when they started funding Playground's second studio to create open world RPGs. And Playground didn't just "hire some new staff". They created an entirely new studio with entirely new leadership.

Guerrilla Games had never made an open world RPG before Horizon. So they brought in open world RPG vets and were able to make the game. Same difference.

It remains to be seen if Playground will be successful in retooling their engine for Fable. That's really the only controversial decision made here, imo.

Excellent post. And I agree with you that it remains to be seen how it turns out.

Hopefully we get a glimpse at the Showcase on the 12th

 

[PharaoTutAnchAmun]

Another day, another 11 page thread based on an Xbox rumor incoming.

Good job xbox ambassador, keep damagecontrolling ....

 

[Kimahri]

I feel like you are going past the point I'm making, which is that if MS wanted to reboot Fable, they had several other better studios to tap for the project. They have legitimate RPG makers in-house now. My point is that Playground being chosen was a dumb move by MS.

Tell me one other studio that transitioned from making only racers, or fighters, or sports games, into making a successful story-based RPG.

Hiring some new staff doesn't totally change everything. And the engine transition is just one example of why using Playground was a poor decision. Why even bother trying to use that type of engine for a story based game? It reminds me of how EA wanted every single game running on one engine, and some devs found that to be a nightmare. Same thing seems to be happening with Fable now.

I honestly don't understand the amount faith being placed in Playground, especially when you have 3 or 4 actual RPG studios under the MS banner.

It's only a bad idea if the game turns out bad.

 

[Jaybe]

MS must have seen something good in whatever prototype Playground presented.
And they likely had their hiring spree shortly before the pitch, so MS could see that Studio 2 had the talent to make an open world RPG likely also just the trust the studio has generated after releasing nothing but bangers gave them a near blank check.

Probably did something right to convince MS but a hiring spree would never happen until a project was greenlit.

 

[Ozriel]

Good job xbox ambassador, keep damagecontrolling ....

This was you when Colt was pushing hyper positive rumors about xbox

Now it’s negative rumors, Colt’s show is now a great place for factual reporting
Now he has a clue, and is no longer ‘the king of spreading false information’.


It’s just $299 or $499 brah.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

The issue isn't that a company who's only made racing games is having a hard time figuring out how to do a 3rd person fantasy action RPG that's to be expected, the issue is this game was announced WAY too early and that it would seem the scaling down should have been done by now, they announced the game just about 2 years ago. This thing is probably still at least 3 years away from the sound of it.

 

[Ozriel]

The issue isn't that a company who's only made racing games is having a hard time figuring out how to do a 3rd person fantasy action RPG that's to be expected, the issue is this game was announced WAY too early and that it would seem the scaling down should have been done by now, they announced the game just about 2 years ago. This thing is probably still at least 3 years away from the sound of it.

Nah.

The issue is why you’re believing this rumor that should ideally be taken with a pinch of salt. Or why you imagine - after seeing the tweet from a Senior Producer at Playground - that scoping happens this far into development.

It’s also hardly the first game to be announced well before release. Death Stranding was announced in mid 2016 and didn’t get released until late 2019, nearly 3.5 years later. Bethesda announced Starfield and TES6 ages ago. Pragmata was announced around the same time as Fable and there’s no release date yet.

I don’t see why that’s a problem.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

This was you when Colt was pushing hyper positive rumors about xbox

Now it’s negative rumors, Colt’s show is now a great place for factual reporting
Now he has a clue, and is no longer ‘the king of spreading false information’.


It’s just $299 or $499 brah.

Every time you see someone call people an "Xbox Ambassador", you can be 100% certain that the person is deep into console war Twitter. By no means are these people to be taken seriously.

 

[Topher]

Every time you see someone call people an "Xbox Ambassador", you can be 100% certain that the person is deep into console war Twitter. By no means are these people to be taken seriously.

I'm officially an "Xbox Ambassador", but I'd prefer it if you call me "Your Excellency".

 

[Swift_Star]

This has been a fun read.

 

[Fafalada]

That's a given. I just think that sooner or later "bad methodology" will get to you.

Generally yes, industry is also full of those cases. Though some companies have really perfected the art of throwing more bodies at problems.

Being a new team, however, can also make things worse; since new teams haven't the collective experience of working together in a collaborative way, working out all of the conflicts and issues with the team dynamics to hone their team cohesiveness and productivity.

This - building effective teams is a lot harder (and a lot more work) than just hiring good talent.

 

[Ozriel]

Being a new team, however, can also make things worse; since new teams haven't the collective experience of working together in a collaborative way, working out all of the conflicts and issues with the team dynamics to hone their team cohesiveness and productivity.

There are innumerable examples of newly formed teams of all-star devs completely collapsing, or producing sub-par products because it takes time and many dev projects under your belt for you to break in a new dev team. Look at MS's own The Initiative and the shit show that seems to have been so far and they haven't even yet shipped a game.

Not sure your examples apply since a large portion of the second team is comprised of Playground veterans. Plus there’s already a well established studio culture of efficiency and non-toxicity. It’s not for nothing that Playground’s won multiple ‘best place to work in the UK’ awards.

The comparison to The Initiative isn’t apt at all

 

[DeepEnigma]

I'm officially an "Xbox Ambassador", but I'd prefer it if you call me "Your Excellency".

You get pickles? Lucky!

All I get are socks.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Not sure your examples apply since a large portion of the second team is comprised of Playground veterans. Plus there’s already a well established studio culture of efficiency and non-toxicity. It’s not for nothing that Playground’s won multiple ‘best place to work in the UK’ awards.

The comparison to The Initiative isn’t apt at all

I never compared Playground to the Initiative. I posed the Initiative as an example of how just hiring a team full of industry veterans doesn't automatically result in a great product.

And regardless, virtually all of your counterpoints raised in favour of Playground could have been said about Bioware's Canadian studio that dropped the ball hard making Mass Effect: Andromeda.

Again, just because the studio is made up of a number of veterans (even from the same studio) doesn't mean there aren't workflow inefficiencies, conflicts and deleterious team dynamics to work through. This is merely the fact of there being a new team, making a new game that is completely different in virtually every way than their previous games; regardless of how many old staffers make it up.

Making a game like Fable in this context is new for all members of the new team. There is no magical efficiency that will carry across from their work on Forza games. They practically have to build a whole new engine and toolchain, workflows and content pipeline to be able to do it. Nothing about starting from scratch confers efficiency. Practically, it's almost always the opposite.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

This iteration of Fable IP started 5 years before Bethesda deal happened. Obsidian was a bit closer - but still, years after.
You could argue that they should take it away from Playground after - but that'd likely set internet on fire if it happened.

Assuming the rumours in the OP are true, frankly, I'd rather MS did take Fable away from Playground and give it to Obsidian. I'd rather take a full-fat ambitious Fable from a studio with the chops to aim high and nail it, than a scaled-down in scope and ambition first attempt by the B-team of a racing game dev.

Let Playground work on a new IP. Something that's their own baby and brainchild, but also something that isn't going to see them reach too far beyond their capability as a studio.

 

[Ozriel]

Assuming the rumours in the OP are true, frankly, I'd rather MS did take Fable away from Playground and give it to Obsidian. I'd rather take a full-fat ambitious Fable from a studio with the chops to aim high and nail it, than a scaled-down in scope and ambition first attempt by the B-team of a racing game dev.

Let Playground work on a new IP. Something that's their own baby and brainchild, but also something that isn't going to see them reach too far beyond their capability as a studio.

This just seems like excessive, undue concern.

You’d rather Microsoft cancel the Fable reboot and give it to Obsidian to make after Avowed and The Outer Worlds? How’s that make sense?

Also rather illogical to call this the ‘B team’. Multiple studios have put together multiple dev teams under a single roof. Insomniac makes multiple games with that approach. Sony Santa Monica’s taken that approach to work on their new IP alongside Ragnarok. Naughty Dog is rumored to be doing same. And in none of these cases has a team comprised of industry veterans behind some of the best AAA games in the past decade been derisively referred to as a ‘B team’

‘Beyond their capability’ is also a strange term, since the Fable team has hired extensively to bring additional capability in-house. Pitching the team as still a bunch of racing devs is strange as hell.

 

[sinnergy]

Assuming the rumours in the OP are true, frankly, I'd rather MS did take Fable away from Playground and give it to Obsidian. I'd rather take a full-fat ambitious Fable from a studio with the chops to aim high and nail it, than a scaled-down in scope and ambition first attempt by the B-team of a racing game dev.

Let Playground work on a new IP. Something that's their own baby and brainchild, but also something that isn't going to see them reach too far beyond their capability as a studio.

I rather would have seen Nintendo make Metroid Prime , back in the 2000s rather than Retro Studios .. but look how that turned out. Give Playground a little slack and faith.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

This just seems like excessive, undue concern.

No. It's called an opinion. Feel free to disagree.

You’d rather Microsoft cancel the Fable reboot and give it to Obsidian to make after Avowed and The Outer Worlds? How’s that make sense?

I'd rather Obsidian make a new Fable game first. The Outer Worlds wasn't all that, and nobody knows anything about Avowed enough to be excited for it anyway.

An new Obsidian-developed Fable would be more exciting for me.

And it makes sense because Obsidian has made RPGs before, meanwhile, Playground hasn't and all the hiring in the world won't magically make Playground ready to ship a top tier RPG game.

Also rather illogical to call this the ‘B team’. Multiple studios have put together multiple dev teams under a single roof. Insomniac makes multiple games with that approach. Sony Santa Monica’s taken that approach to work on their new IP alongside Ragnarok. Naughty Dog is rumored to be doing same. And in none of these cases has a team comprised of industry veterans behind some of the best AAA games in the past decade been derisively referred to as a ‘B team’

Calm down.

I meant B team as in it's their second team. Not that it's inherently inferior. That said, it's not equal to the Forza Horizon team either, because it's a new team that has never made a game together before (and especially not a non-racing game). So the term would be factually accurate in both senses.

‘Beyond their capability’ is also a strange term, since the Fable team has hired extensively to bring additional capability in-house. Pitching the team as still a bunch of racing devs is strange as hell.

No, it's not. Read the OP carefully again. Playground has had to reduce the scope and ambition of their Fable game. They obviously bit off more than they can chew... ergo, the game as originally envisioned was beyond their capability.

You and many others in this thread seem to have this oversimplified, over-idealised view of games development, that just because a team has made great games in the past, they can make any new game in any new genre and knock it out of the park... that's just not accurate for most development teams... not even close to reality.

I rather would have seen Nintendo make Metroid Prime , back in the 2000s rather than Retro Studios .. but look how that turned out. Give Playground a little slack and faith.

Er... no. I don't have to.

 

[Starbuck2907]

I hope they scale it down. I want a good game, not an unoptimized nightmare produced by a team in over their heads.

Have you ever played Fable 3? It runs like garbage. Almost anything they release will be technically superior to the prior Fable games.

 

[Ozriel]

I'd rather Obsidian make a new Fable game first. The Outer Worlds wasn't all that, and nobody knows anything about Avowed enough to be excited for it anyway.

An new Obsidian-developed Fable would be more exciting for me.

Well, pivoting to Obsidian for Fable after setting up a talented team at Playground and after 3 years of development would make no sense and would be a shocking act of mismanagement from Phil.

Good thing some common sense prevails on that score.

Imagine saying in one breath that Obsidian makes top drawer RPGs, then in the other saying you’d be happy for Avowed - an RPG - to be canned or put on ice to make Fable.

And it makes sense because Obsidian has made RPGs before, meanwhile, Playground hasn't and all the hiring in the world won't magically make Playground ready to ship a top tier RPG game.

And yet this thread is filled with examples of studios pivoting to genres different from what they’ve made before.

Asobo’s first ever flight simulator game - 90% MC
Guerilla’s pivot from FPS games into Horizon series? - multiple GOTY awards in 2017

Double Helix went from making Army Men games to Killer Instinct (2013), a very solid fighting game.

Naughty Dog went from the likes of Jak and Crash to Uncharted.

So yeah, history disagrees with you.

I meant B team as in it's their second team. Not that it's inherently inferior. That said, it's not equal to the Forza Horizon team either, because it's a new team that has never made a game together before (and especially not a non-racing game). So the term would be factually accurate in both senses.

A large portion of the team has worked together for years on Forza Horizon. And studio culture will remain the same. Pitching this as a inferior team is laughable.

No, it's not. Read the OP carefully again. Playground has had to reduce the scope and ambition of their Fable game. They obviously bit off more than they can chew... ergo, the game as originally envisioned was beyond their capability.

It’s beyond hilarious that an unsubstantiated rumor from a YouTuber is what you’ve taken as a ‘fact’ and are confidently building a case around these claims.

“I know for sure They’ve had to reduce the scope and bit off more than they can chew because someone on Colt Eastwood’s YouTube said so”

You and many others in this thread seem to have this oversimplified, over-idealised view of games development, that just because a team has made great games in the past, they can make any new game in any new genre and knock it out of the park... that's just not accurate for most development teams... not even close to reality.

Actually it does seem like you’re the one with an oversimplified view of game development, with your unfounded skepticism about the ability of highly experienced game devs to pivot, and your dogmatic belief that capability and experience cannot be brought in-house.


Ironically, you were one of the folks opposed to Xbox acquisitions in the past and you’ve stated you preferred them to build new teams. Yet here you are, downplaying a new team and their future output.

No need to be so concerned

 

[ZywyPL]

Phil Spencer needs to be replaced. Turning away Marvel, Letting insomniac go, mismanagement of Halo, Hellblade, Forza, Starfield and now Fable, show's he has no clue about the industry. The Xbox Series is his first console launch and he has nothing to show for it. And if anyone thinks it's acceptable to hand-wave away the failures because "publisher of the year", then give your head a wobble, because you're being bamboozled.

There's no shame in wanting better.

While all your examples are spot on, Spencer is not responsible for the games themselves, their development, schedlues, studios etc., if anything, it's Matt Booty's job, while Spencer turned around the sinking XB1 ship like no one could even imagined, brought XB brand at the right track and so far is doing a great job at expanding the brand beyond just consoles. It's like you were blaming Jim Ryan for HFW performance mode image quality issues, or GT7 car prices,vwhile he has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Well, pivoting to Obsidian for Fable after setting up a talented team at Playground and after 3 years of development would make no sense and would be a shocking act of mismanagement from Phil.

Good thing some common sense prevails on that score.

Imagine saying in one breath that Obsidian makes top drawer RPGs, then in the other saying you’d be happy for Avowed - an RPG - to be canned or put on ice to make Fable.





And yet this thread is filled with examples of studios pivoting to genres different from what they’ve made before.

Asobo’s first ever flight simulator game - 90% MC
Guerilla’s pivot from FPS games into Horizon series? - multiple GOTY awards in 2017

Double Helix went from making Army Men games to Killer Instinct (2013), a very solid fighting game.

Naughty Dog went from the likes of Jak and Crash to Uncharted.

So yeah, history disagrees with you.



A large portion of the team has worked together for years on Forza Horizon. And studio culture will remain the same. Pitching this as a inferior team is laughable.




It’s beyond hilarious that an unsubstantiated rumor from a YouTuber is what you’ve taken as a ‘fact’ and are confidently building a case around these claims.

“I know for sure They’ve had to reduce the scope and bit off more than they can chew because someone on Colt Eastwood’s YouTube said so”




Actually it does seem like you’re the one with an oversimplified view of game development, with your unfounded skepticism about the ability of highly experienced game devs to pivot, and your dogmatic belief that capability and experience cannot be brought in-house.


Ironically, you were one of the folks opposed to Xbox acquisitions in the past and you’ve stated you preferred them to build new teams. Yet here you are, downplaying a new team and their future output.

No need to be so concerned

Continue living in your idealized la la land and furiously waging war against anyone that doesn't share your blind optimism.

All your counterpoints I have addressed in this thread in earlier discussion with other users. You can review and educate yourself, or you can choose not to and lean hard into your blind faith and hopes and dreams. I don't give a shit what you do. Unlike you, I'm not so insecure that I will not suffer others not sharing my opinion on a subject.

I've detailed why I don't think blind faith in Playground's second team for this project is warranted. The OP itself stands as a justification to my reservations.

There are no rumours or reports of development on Fable going swimmingly well and talk about it being the best WRPG ever. Only rumours in the fucking OP of this very thread, claiming they're having to scale down the project due to their lack of experience. So the history and examples of other more talented devs succeeding are frankly irrelevant to Playground's current predicament.

The onus is on Playground to deliver, and the rumours surrounding their progress thus far aren't at all positive. If in the face of that you wanna jam your fingers in your ears and sing Kumbaya, all the best. I will maintain my healthy scepticism that this project will eventually become the milestone return to form that the Fable franchise desperately needs to become relevant again.

 

[Ozriel]

Continue living in your idealized la la land and furiously waging war against anyone that doesn't share your blind optimism.

All your counterpoints I have addressed in this thread in earlier discussion with other users. You can review and educate yourself, or you can choose not to and lean hard into your blind faith and hopes and dreams. I don't give a shit what you do. Unlike you, I'm not so insecure that I will not suffer others not sharing my opinion on a subject.

I've detailed why I don't think blind faith in Playground's second team for this project is warranted. The OP itself stands as a justification to my reservations.

There are no rumours or reports of development on Fable going swimmingly well and talk about it being the best WRPG ever. Only rumours in the fucking OP of this very thread, claiming they're having to scale down the project due to their lack of experience. So the history and examples of other more talented devs succeeding are frankly irrelevant to Playground's current predicament.

The onus is on Playground to deliver, and the rumours surrounding their progress thus far aren't at all positive. If in the face of that you wanna jam your fingers in your ears and sing Kumbaya, all the best. I will maintain my healthy scepticism that this project will eventually become the milestone return to form that the Fable franchise desperately needs to become relevant again.

To summarize your long, bilious post:

“Despite historical precedence, I don’t believe Fable will turn out well because a random YouTuber dropped a rumor”

All the best with your skepticism (which just happens to be in line with a long history of antipathy towards anything Xbox).

No point engaging further. Cheers

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

To summarize your long, bilious post:

“Despite historical precedence, I don’t believe Fable will turn out well because a random YouTuber dropped a rumor”

What historical precedent? Playground's second team have never shipped a game.

Other devs =/= Playground.

That's like claiming because Elon Musk got loaded for doing X, if I do X I will also end up fucking loaded.

It's the kind of reasoning gullible folks use to get themselves scammed out of their earnings.

If that's the way you wanna reason, you do you fam.

All the best with your skepticism (which just happens to be in line with a long history of antipathy towards anything Xbox).

No point engaging further. Cheers

Lol, and now with the puerile fanboy accusations. Textbook fanboy insecurity.

I make no apologies for my preference for PS products over Xbox. But considering the sales disparity over the past 20 years of gaming, I'm actually in the majority of gamers.

I guess we must all be raging fanboy loons for simply having a preference that differs to yours....

Fucking lol. Grow up, dude.

 

[sinnergy]

No. It's called an opinion. Feel free to disagree.



I'd rather Obsidian make a new Fable game first. The Outer Worlds wasn't all that, and nobody knows anything about Avowed enough to be excited for it anyway.

An new Obsidian-developed Fable would be more exciting for me.

And it makes sense because Obsidian has made RPGs before, meanwhile, Playground hasn't and all the hiring in the world won't magically make Playground ready to ship a top tier RPG game.



Calm down.

I meant B team as in it's their second team. Not that it's inherently inferior. That said, it's not equal to the Forza Horizon team either, because it's a new team that has never made a game together before (and especially not a non-racing game). So the term would be factually accurate in both senses.



No, it's not. Read the OP carefully again. Playground has had to reduce the scope and ambition of their Fable game. They obviously bit off more than they can chew... ergo, the game as originally envisioned was beyond their capability.

You and many others in this thread seem to have this oversimplified, over-idealised view of games development, that just because a team has made great games in the past, they can make any new game in any new genre and knock it out of the park... that's just not accurate for most development teams... not even close to reality.



Er... no. I don't have to.

Instead we read you complains before we even know anything

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Instead we read you complains before we even know anything

What complaints? I didn't utter a single complaint.

I've only stated pretty plainly why I think Playground making a Fable game is a poor fit.

At least follow the actual discussion before wading in and making ignorant accusations... Geez

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Xbox really need to nail Fable, Avowed and Perfect Dark. There can be no excuses. They all need to be stellar games.

Exactly.

 

[sinnergy]

What complaints? I didn't utter a single complaint.

I've only stated pretty plainly why I think Playground making a Fable game is a poor fit.

At least follow the actual discussion before wading in and making ignorant accusations... Geez

Based on nothing .. Retro studios was named a poor fit before Metroid Prime released for example … all the media was also basically against them .. just saying .

 

[Negotiator101]

What complaints? I didn't utter a single complaint.

I've only stated pretty plainly why I think Playground making a Fable game is a poor fit.

At least follow the actual discussion before wading in and making ignorant accusations... Geez

Until we see some footage and information for the game I'd say its you making ignorant and uninformed comments on why PG is a poor fit.....geez.

 

[Negotiator101]

While all your examples are spot on, Spencer is not responsible for the games themselves, their development, schedlues, studios etc., if anything, it's Matt Booty's job, while Spencer turned around the sinking XB1 ship like no one could even imagined, brought XB brand at the right track and so far is doing a great job at expanding the brand beyond just consoles. It's like you were blaming Jim Ryan for HFW performance mode image quality issues, or GT7 car prices,vwhile he has absolutely nothing to do with it.

All his examples are far from spot on, I'd say he makes a few valid points but is largely over exaggerating.

 

[Goalus]

Good job xbox ambassador, keep damagecontrolling ....

Well spoken, Sony shill.

 

[oldergamer]

Yes, she's a senior producer on the project, but if you check her Twitter bio you'll see she joined the project this Feb.

That should tell you all you need to know. Game is very likely 2+ years out and they'll only have a design and probably a vertical slice/proof of concept build done at the moment. So even though plans are firm, there's still plenty of latitude for change over the remaining time.

The fact she joined recently doesn't tell you shit about the games current state. This is exactly the would be armchair developer shit i was just talking about.

 

[DevilHunterX0]

Just take the existing engine add swords & guns and call it "Road Rampage" or something.