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[EscoBlades]

While I agree that some of how Holly Green initially wrote about this was problematic, I think that the reaction that she's getting from some of the people in this thread is completely overboard.

It seems as if the initial allegations were unfounded, but the response to Green on twitter (and in this thread) is even more damning evidence on how women are treated in gaming spaces.

The reaction in this thread is NOWHERE near that she is getting on Twitter. Most level headed people wouldn't condone such.

At the same time, people called her out on her visible BS. That is the way it should be in this industry, regardless of gender. Her "crusade" sans all the facts of the matter could have gotten an innocent party in a lot of needless trouble. Especially using a medium like Twitter which spawned the whole non issue in the first place.

It is...THAT simple.

 

[Risette]

Can anyone explain to me who this Arthur Gies guy is?

The man who unearthed The God Hand Conspiracy.

 

[Delusibeta]

The good one for cool people with sophisticated taste.

Oh, so this one then.

While I agree that some of how Holly Green initially wrote about this was problematic, I think that the reaction that she's getting from some of the people in this thread is completely overboard.

It seems as if the initial allegations were unfounded, but the response to Green on twitter (and in this thread) is even more damning evidence on how women are treated in gaming spaces.

Disagree on the reaction in this thread being damning evidence on anything other than GAF's low tolerance to bullshit. Don't try to paint her as the victim, it won't fly here.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Is this Arthur fellow the same guy who GAF gave thousands of dollars to when the 1UP folk got fired to start their own podcast/website?

RebelFM, was it? Did he work for 1UP or was he just some dude who was friends with those guys and just showed up on the podcast?

I just keep hearing his name everywhere on here lately and trying to think of how he became relevant somehow.

Wasn't one of the people laid off he just showed up after the fact and ruined the podcast for me.

 

[Shinta]

It's just crazy to me that we've had several high profile feminism-related news bits recently that all turned into train wrecks, just within the last two weeks.

1) Susan Wilson's Kickstarter
2) Notch Escort-gate
3) Dongle-gate

So much drama. So little success.

 

[criesofthepast]

Wasn't one of the people laid off he just showed up after the fact and ruined the podcast for me.

Yeah, sounds about right. Guess I remembered it all correctly. I listened to a few episodes back then and remember him being unbearable to listen to whenever he spoke. I think I remember him talking over people a lot and being generally obnoxious which seems to fit how he's presented himself lately on twitter and the like. Does he have any games journalism experience before RebelFM?

 

[ThirtyDegrees]

Oh, so this one then.



Disagree on the reaction in this thread being damning evidence on anything other than GAF's low tolerance to bullshit. Don't try to paint her as the victim, it won't fly here.

There was the unfounded accusation that she was hired simply because she was a woman by the editor of the site she works for.

There were the constant posts implying she was irrational and overly emotional and out of control, in contrast to how Gies is simply a jerk.

There were the posts about how she was clearly just jealous because these other women were more attractive and/or better dressed than she was.

There is plenty of sexism in this thread, and that's before the men's rights activism and attacks on feminism are taken into consideration.

 

[thesuperfunk]

These threads need more pictures damnit!

 

[mcnarnia]

Isn't it possible that there were hired escorts there, just not hired by Notch? Not hard to imagine club owners or promoters doing so. I think there was an issue with the promoter for Notch's party at PAX Prime last year. They gave out lots of passes to that party to their own guestlist of non-gamers, if I recall correctly.

 

[dragonbane]

These threads need more pictures damnit!

Link to Gies twitter post where he does the white knighting?

He still hasn't paid the $10 to djblackice, what the hell. Textbook example of a stubborn person.

https://twitter.com/aegies/status/317754777587052544

 

[CookTrain]

It's just crazy to me that we've had several high profile feminism-related news bits recently that all turned into train wrecks, just within the last two weeks.

1) Susan Wilson's Kickstarter
2) Notch Escort-gate
3) Dongle-gate

So much drama. So little success.

It's a shame that so many people are tripping over themselves to jump on the bandwagon right now that they're undermining the actual problems that come with attitudes in the industry.

 

[Gibbo]

Does Notch or whoever have grounds to sue for defamation?

 

[CorrisD]

It's just crazy to me that we've had several high profile feminism-related news bits recently that all turned into train wrecks, just within the last two weeks.

1) Susan Wilson's Kickstarter
2) Notch Escort-gate
3) Dongle-gate

So much drama. So little success.

Let us not forget GodOfWarTrophy-gate, Arthur Gies and Sessler made such a big fuss over nothing that SSM had a patch to change the name of the trophy, probably so it didn't go any further when it was really only these two making a fuss.

Recap: in the wake of the IGDA party dancer scandal, unsubstantiated Twitter rumors surface about women being paid to be in the VIP room of a Mojang party, apparently too attractive and numerous to possibly be there of their own volition (sexism much?). Mojang flatly deny claim and the source of the rumors is rooted out, essentially a game of Twitter Telephone, but a delusional feminist extremist crusader decrees that Notch is still at fault for people thinking that they were paid for even if they weren't, and that he should take some sort of action in reparation. Arthur Gies takes her side and promotes her on Twitter.

The OP is permed for going on a witch hunt (in conjunction with insane extremist posts afterwards) and refusing to update his thread after the attempt at scandal fell apart. Libelous, agenda-driven bullshit.

Arthur Gies is officially the most disreputable person in the enthusiast press.

*sniff* that was beautiful.

 

[ambientmystic]

Recap: in the wake of the IGDA party dancer scandal, unsubstantiated Twitter rumors surface about women being paid to be in the VIP room of a Mojang party, apparently too attractive and numerous to possibly be there of their own volition (sexism much?). Mojang flatly deny claim and the source of the rumors is rooted out, essentially a game of Twitter Telephone, but a delusional feminist extremist crusader decrees that Notch is still at fault for people thinking that they were paid for even if they weren't, and that he should take some sort of action in reparation. Arthur Gies takes her side and promotes her on Twitter.

The OP is permed for going on a witch hunt (in conjunction with insane extremist posts afterwards) and refusing to update his thread after the attempt at scandal fell apart. Libelous, agenda-driven bullshit.

Arthur Gies is officially the most disreputable person in the enthusiast press.

This needs to be requoted for the new page. Well said boss, well said.

Hope that puts to rest all the bullshit of the past umpteenth pages.

 

[Delusibeta]

Isn't it possible that there were hired escorts there, just not hired by Notch? Not hard to imagine club owners or promoters doing so. I think there was an issue with the promoter for Notch's party at PAX Prime last year. They gave out lots of passes to that party to their own guestlist of non-gamers, if I recall correctly.

Notch: denies. Promoter: denies. Venue: a concert hall, so no. Artists: lol.

In short, this controversy is founded on 100% grade-A garbage.

 

[bbdude]

This guy:

I've been thinking: his use of the word "insist" implies that he means noone could have really known for SURE if offline was possible because they didn't have access to the code or whatever... or was that already the general interpretation and I'm just slow

 

[VGChampion]

Is this Arthur fellow the same guy who GAF gave thousands of dollars to when the 1UP folk got fired to start their own podcast/website?

RebelFM, was it? Did he work for 1UP or was he just some dude who was friends with those guys and just showed up on the podcast?

I just keep hearing his name everywhere on here lately and trying to think of how he became relevant somehow.

Ha, that's all I know from him as well. When every one was creating new podcasts, RebelFM showed up with a bunch of recently ex-1uppers and this guy. I just assumed he was a room mate of Anthony's who piggy backed his way into something. He's why I never stuck with RebelFM.

 

[Shinta]

Let us not forget GodOfWarTrophy-gate, Arthur Gies and Sessler made such a big fuss over nothing that SSM had a patch to change the name of the trophy, probably so it didn't go any further when it was really only these two making a fuss.

There's many more to list if we keep going back, like Kotaku calling David Jaffe a misogynist. Too many to list really. I was just surprised that 3 happened in such a short period of time.

People can try to marginalize anyone who criticizes anything even tangentially related to feminism as MRA, but honestly, it seems way broader than that. If I was someone trying to push that ideology, I would start picking my battles a whole lot more carefully. This many false alarms will lead to a backlash, and it's already started.

Even the IGDA dancer thing, I thought YetiZen's statement had at least a few interesting elements in it. The person responsible for setting it up is a female originally from Saudi Arabia. I think it's an interesting dynamic that in her country women are forced to cover themselves up and could never do something like the IGDA dancers did. Yet here, we all tell her the same thing. It's like people have forgotten the sexual revolution, and that this was also a huge part of feminism. Neo-feminism is dovetailing way more with puritan, conservative ideology lately and too often confuses anything sexual with sexism.

The sad thing is that all these pseudo-controversies undermine and erode the credibility of legitimate issues that need to be addressed in a thoughtful manner.

 

[thumb]

Fact 5: YetiZen did not hire dancers. We hired avid gamers, who happened to be models, to discuss gaming with the invited guests. The YetiZen team (myself, my co-founder, and our resident artist) were invited by the rappers, along with our gamer-models, to dance for a few minutes on stage.

Wait, so after all that, the party organizers did hire professional models to attend?

Edit: oh, misunderstood, this is a different event.

 

[daegan]

Wait, so after all that, the party organizers did hire professional models to attend?

I'm guessing Yetizen didn't call the gamer agency to find some coincidentally attractive gamers. The shit people try to pass off is amazing.

 

[Shinta]

Wait, so after all that, the party organizers did hire professional models to attend?

It's a different thing, a different event entirely. YetiZen hired dancers to perform at the IGDA event and a few board members resigned because they thought the outfits were skimpy and it was inappropriate (they were IGDA approved before the performance). Brenda Romero is the most well known of the board members who resigned. This was a few days ago also.

 

[Sblargh]

There's many more to list if we keep going back, like Kotaku calling David Jaffe a misogynist. Too many to list really. I was just surprised that 3 happened in such a short period of time.

People can try to marginalize anyone who criticizes anything even tangentially related to feminism as MRA, but honestly, it seems way broader than that. If I was someone trying to push that ideology, I would start picking my battles a whole lot more carefully. This many false alarms will lead to a backlash, and it's already started.

Even the IGDA dancer thing, I thought YetiZen's statement had at least a few interesting elements in it. The person responsible for setting it up is a female originally from Saudi Arabia. I think it's an interesting dynamic that in her country women are forced to cover themselves up and could never do something like the IGDA dancers did. Yet here, we all tell her the same thing. It's like people have forgotten the sexual revolution, and that this was also a huge part of feminism. Neo-feminism is dovetailing way more with puritan, conservative ideology lately and too often confuses anything sexual with sexism.

The sad thing is that all these pseudo-controversies undermine and erode the credibility of legitimate issues that need to be addressed in a thoughtful manner.

Oh, please. The problem is not women expressing their sexuality or even getting paid to do so, it is the women who work in gaming going to a place where these big dancing signs called "Boy's Club! Boy's Club!" are hanging on the poles.

And it is easy to "backlash" against a movement when a mistake does happen (like this Notch incident happened) when you are already predisposed to backlash the very first opportunity.

Overreactions do happen, and it is good to see this accusation was caught as the bullshit it was. Now, to take this as a sign of how an entire social movement works is to put your own agenda-driven bullshit in the mix.

 

[Raitosaito]

Recap: in the wake of the IGDA party dancer scandal, unsubstantiated Twitter rumors surface about women being paid to be in the VIP room of a Mojang party, apparently too attractive and numerous to possibly be there of their own volition (sexism much?). Mojang flatly deny claim and the source of the rumors is rooted out, essentially a game of Twitter Telephone, but a delusional feminist extremist crusader decrees that Notch is still at fault for people thinking that they were paid for even if they weren't, and that he should take some sort of action in reparation. Arthur Gies takes her side and promotes her on Twitter.

The OP is permed for going on a witch hunt (in conjunction with insane extremist posts afterwards) and refusing to update his thread after the attempt at scandal fell apart. Libelous, agenda-driven bullshit.

Arthur Gies is officially the most disreputable person in the enthusiast press.

You know it's still surprising how level headed the master of GAF can be.

 

[Shinta]

Oh, please. The problem is not women expressing their sexuality or even getting paid to do so, it is the women who work in gaming going to a place where these big dancing signs called "Boy's Club! Boy's Club!" are hanging on the poles.

Boy's club, but the event was organized by a woman, and one of the prominent board members resigning was also a woman. I didn't see the dancers, so I can't really judge for myself. But personally, I wouldn't get bent out of shape if I saw Cirque du Soleil and they had some topless guys dancing. I doubt the IGDA thing had strippers or something.

And it is easy to "backlash" against a movement when a mistake does happen (like this Notch incident happened) when you are already predisposed to backlash the very first opportunity.

That's a lot of baseless assumptions trying to marginalize any criticism. I don't know what "pre-disposed" even means unless you're calling me a misogynist based on absolutely nothing. And no one is talking about the "first opportunity," considering my post mentioned 3 just within the last week or so. That's the tip of the iceberg.

Overreactions do happen, and it is good to see this accusation was caught as the bullshit it was. Now, to take this as a sign of how an entire social movement works is to put your own agenda-driven bullshit in the mix.

I'm just acknowledging a recent pattern that a lot of people have noticed. Trying to downplay that is the agenda-driven perspective here. Not sure what agenda you think I have, other than discouraging false alarms and pseudo-controversies. I even said it's unfortunate that this erodes the credibility of real issues, and it does.

 

[Dennis]

I'm not really sure what happened here other than Arthur Gies apparently embarrassed himself yet again. Which confirms that we are in fact in a day that ends in Y.

But all the weekdays end in a Y......


.....oh

 

[Cartman86]

Oh, please. The problem is not women expressing their sexuality or even getting paid to do so, it is the women who work in gaming going to a place where these big dancing signs called "Boy's Club! Boy's Club!" are hanging on the poles.

And it is easy to "backlash" against a movement when a mistake does happen (like this Notch incident happened) when you are already predisposed to backlash the very first opportunity.

Overreactions do happen, and it is good to see this accusation was caught as the bullshit it was. Now, to take this as a sign of how an entire social movement works is to put your own agenda-driven bullshit in the mix.

Amen.

 

[Sblargh]

Boy's club, but the event was organized by a woman, and one of the prominent board members resigning was also a woman. I didn't see the dancers, so I can't really judge for myself. But personally, I wouldn't get bent out of shape if I saw Cirque du Soleil and they had some topless guys dancing. I doubt the IGDA thing had strippers or something.

Comparing skimpy dressed dancers paid to be oogled at by hungry horny busisness men and Cirque du Soleil is doing wonders for your argument. And the event being organized by a woman means next to nothing, women can be sexist, too.

That's a lot of baseless assumptions trying to marginalize any criticism. I don't know what "pre-disposed" even means unless you're calling me a misogynist based on absolutely nothing.

I'm not calling you nothing. I'm saying that usually people can distinguish between unfounded accusation and righteous complaint unless they are trying extra hard either to show that there is sexism everwhere or that feminists are hysterical everwhere. So there is no need to worry that this will make feminists everwhere look bad, feminism is just fine, this was just a failed call for attention at the expension of a beloved figure in the community and reasonable people can see it as so. And the unreasonable is just unreasonable.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

The man who unearthed The God Hand Conspiracy.

Still makes me laugh.

 

[badcrumble]

Oh, so this one then

Please don't troll.

 

[Baconsammy]

I'm pretty sure you don't have to pay beautiful women to hang out with successful millionaires.

 

[Portugeezer]

Or he has a different view than you. I know its crazy isn't it?

For this, not at all.

But every time? Yeah something is up when you go against the general consensus so many times, either stupid, or devils advocate, I give people the benefit of the doubt and say he is playing devils advocate most times.

 

[TheD]

There was the unfounded accusation that she was hired simply because she was a woman by the editor of the site she works for.

There were the constant posts implying she was irrational and overly emotional and out of control, in contrast to how Gies is simply a jerk.

There were the posts about how she was clearly just jealous because these other women were more attractive and/or better dressed than she was.

There is plenty of sexism in this thread, and that's before the men's rights activism and attacks on feminism are taken into consideration.

That is how she was acting!
The statements she made are clearly not level headed, thus describing them as "overly emotional" would be correct

It is stupid to claim that just because she is a woman she could not be acting like that.

The reason that gies only gets called an idiot is because all he did was show support for her, he did not write what she did.
And do not forget that gies has been called many choice words in regards to some of his other statements.

Recap: in the wake of the IGDA party dancer scandal, unsubstantiated Twitter rumors surface about women being paid to be in the VIP room of a Mojang party, apparently too attractive and numerous to possibly be there of their own volition (sexism much?). Mojang flatly deny claim and the source of the rumors is rooted out, essentially a game of Twitter Telephone, but a delusional feminist extremist crusader decrees that Notch is still at fault for people thinking that they were paid for even if they weren't, and that he should take some sort of action in reparation. Arthur Gies takes her side and promotes her on Twitter.

The OP is permed for going on a witch hunt (in conjunction with insane extremist posts afterwards) and refusing to update his thread after the attempt at scandal fell apart. Libelous, agenda-driven bullshit.

Arthur Gies is officially the most disreputable person in the enthusiast press.

It always amazes me how much I like the mods on this forum.

 

[JackDT]

While I agree that some of how Holly Green initially wrote about this was problematic, I think that the reaction that she's getting from some of the people in this thread is completely overboard.

It seems as if the initial allegations were unfounded, but the response to Green on twitter (and in this thread) is even more damning evidence on how women are treated in gaming spaces.

Every time. Someone does something silly or stupid and they get so deluged with over-the-top nasty messages that THAT becomes the story.

 

[jgminto]

Oh, Arthur Gies embarrassed himself yet again? Could I get a link?

 

[Kyoufu]

Arthur Gies and Justin McElroy are two reasons why I avoid Polygon.

 

[Cartman86]

Boy's club, but the event was organized by a woman, and one of the prominent board members resigning was also a woman. I didn't see the dancers, so I can't really judge for myself. But personally, I wouldn't get bent out of shape if I saw Cirque du Soleil and they had some topless guys dancing. I doubt the IGDA thing had strippers or something.



That's a lot of baseless assumptions trying to marginalize any criticism. I don't know what "pre-disposed" even means unless you're calling me a misogynist based on absolutely nothing. And no one is talking about the "first opportunity," considering my post mentioned 3 just within the last week or so. That's the tip of the iceberg.



I'm just acknowledging a recent pattern that a lot of people have noticed. Trying to downplay that is the agenda-driven perspective here. Not sure what agenda you think I have, other than discouraging false alarms and pseudo-controversies. I even said it's unfortunate that this erodes the credibility of real issues, and it does.

There's many more to list if we keep going back, like Kotaku calling David Jaffe a misogynist. Too many to list really. I was just surprised that 3 happened in such a short period of time.

People can try to marginalize anyone who criticizes anything even tangentially related to feminism as MRA, but honestly, it seems way broader than that. If I was someone trying to push that ideology, I would start picking my battles a whole lot more carefully. This many false alarms will lead to a backlash, and it's already started.

Even the IGDA dancer thing, I thought YetiZen's statement had at least a few interesting elements in it. The person responsible for setting it up is a female originally from Saudi Arabia. I think it's an interesting dynamic that in her country women are forced to cover themselves up and could never do something like the IGDA dancers did. Yet here, we all tell her the same thing. It's like people have forgotten the sexual revolution, and that this was also a huge part of feminism. Neo-feminism is dovetailing way more with puritan, conservative ideology lately and too often confuses anything sexual with sexism.

The sad thing is that all these pseudo-controversies undermine and erode the credibility of legitimate issues that need to be addressed in a thoughtful manner.

You are in a bubble. A bubble that these feminists and others are trying to pop. I get the impression that you are of the mind that these recent controversies have been bullshit for some reason. Be it "not real sexism", dictionary misogyny, Muslims have it worse or whatever pet argument you want to bring out. In any event the context is why people care. Ignoring this context is the entire reason people are assumed to be MRA's. They certainly use the same arguments MRA's use! Completely ignoring the context in which these situations occur is the average MRA's duty. No one is saying that dancing in scantily clad outfits is inherently wrong. It's worth pointing out that in a free society no one is suggesting we ban it either. This organization however is supposed to represent all game developers. You can't ignore the uneven nature of the sexes and the backlash toward them in this industry let alone society. From the fake gamer girl meme, to the top 10 hot babes in tech/science lists, to reddit, to the rape threats and explicit sexism online every day for many women. If things were more balanced you wouldn't see people complaining about a random dongle joke or bro terminology thrown around.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

While I agree that some of how Holly Green initially wrote about this was problematic, I think that the reaction that she's getting from some of the people in this thread is completely overboard.

It seems as if the initial allegations were unfounded, but the response to Green on twitter (and in this thread) is even more damning evidence on how women are treated in gaming spaces.

Crying wolf without evidence, especially when it's such a sensitive topic, will always create a huge backlash. Especially when you specifically point your finger squarely at an innocent man. And especially since she didn't own up to her mistake and promptly apologize.

Does she deserve criticism? Absolutely. What is the response that you're referring to? I'm not on Twitter and haven't seen anything too bad on GAF.

 

[Roto13]

Typical Arthur, white knighting while totally ignoring the facts. What an asshole. Holly is a troll and he's giving her a platform to troll on. Congrats.

I've worked with her. She's not a troll. She was sincere.

 

[Baconsammy]

I've worked with her. She's not a troll. She was sincere.

Sincere or not, she reacted stupidly. She doesn't deserve the garbage being slung at her on Twitter, but she also doesn't deserve any respect for her silly responses. Responses like hers hurt her cause.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Which is a sound that used to be called"


Garage?

 

[Alucrid]

Which electronic music thread?

The Official NeoGAF Groundbreaking Electronic Music Thread™

 

[Delusibeta]

The Official NeoGAF Groundbreaking Electronic Music Thread™

Oh, the EDM thread. Gotcha.

 

[saunderez]

I've worked with her. She's not a troll. She was sincere.

Someone who refuses to admit they were wrong is a troll. I don't give a shit if you worked with her, she wasn't even at the party, she was working off second hand information then dug in when she didn't hear what she wanted to. She's a troll who has just discredited her publication.

 

[Roto13]

Someone who refuses to admit they were wrong is a troll. I don't give a shit if you worked with her, she wasn't even at the party, she was working off second hand information then dug in when she didn't hear what she wanted to.

Being dumb and wrong is not the same as trolling.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

So it's established that they were actually honest-to-goodness attractive people and not simply escorts - I think if anything, people should be thanking Notch for giving us hope.

 

[nib95]

Recap: in the wake of the IGDA party dancer scandal, unsubstantiated Twitter rumors surface about women being paid to be in the VIP room of a Mojang party, apparently too attractive and numerous to possibly be there of their own volition (sexism much?). Mojang flatly deny claim and the source of the rumors is rooted out, essentially a game of Twitter Telephone, but a delusional feminist extremist crusader decrees that Notch is still at fault for people thinking that they were paid for even if they weren't, and that he should take some sort of action in reparation. Arthur Gies takes her side and promotes her on Twitter.

The OP is permed for going on a witch hunt (in conjunction with insane extremist posts afterwards) and refusing to update his thread after the attempt at scandal fell apart. Libelous, agenda-driven bullshit.

Arthur Gies is officially the most disreputable person in the enthusiast press.

Fucking hell this was an amazing summary. Please stick this post in the OP?

 

[MoonLightWave]

Secretblackfedora.com, somehow it makes me rage.

 

[EscoBlades]

Being dumb and wrong is not the same as trolling.

Being dumb and wrong (your words) and then aggressively obtuse when proven as such IS trolling. Just saying.

 

[Roto13]

Being dumb and wrong (your words) and then aggressively obtuse when proven as such IS trolling. Just saying.

No, really. You need to be trying to make people mad to be trolling. She's just sincerely like this.

 

[EscoBlades]

No, really. You need to be trying to make people mad to be trolling. She's just sincerely like this.

Ahhh well, she needs to work on her attitude in that case.