Quicksave and generous checkpoint system would be ace.
Plenty of other games manage to make their gameplay tense, challenging and rewarding without resorting to outdated conventions like erasing a lot of progress or making you replay long stretches of content again.
From the way the director says it, it sounds like it will only be harder for a certain set of players though. What he said is that their approach to difficulty is the same as Demon's Souls, and that he wants players to feel a sense of accomplishment when they finally overcome something which they previously felt was really hard. But he says that to truly achieve that aim, there are now no options or choices that will specifically make the game less challenging. So the game is harder than Demon's Souls.
My interpretation here is that what he is indirectly referring too would be the various cheese tactics for certain bosses in the original game, as well as stuff like playing as Royal and using Soul Arrow to make the initial parts of the game much easier. By removing these options and forcing players to more carefully consider how they can overcome the odds with skill and preparation instead of just picking an easier play style, the overall game will probably be seen as harder.
From the way the director says it, it sounds like it will only be harder for a certain set of players though. What he said is that their approach to difficulty is the same as Demon's Souls, and that he wants players to feel a sense of accomplishment when they finally overcome something which they previously felt was really hard. But he says that to truly achieve that aim, there are now no options or choices that will specifically make the game less challenging. So the game is harder than Demon's Souls.
My interpretation here is that what he is indirectly referring too would be the various cheese tactics for certain bosses in the original game, as well as stuff like playing as Royal and using Soul Arrow to make the initial parts of the game much easier. By removing these options and forcing players to more carefully consider how they can overcome the odds with skill and preparation instead of just picking an easier play style, the overall game will probably be seen as harder.
From the way the director says it, it sounds like it will only be harder for a certain set of players though. What he said is that their approach to difficulty is the same as Demon's Souls, and that he wants players to feel a sense of accomplishment when they finally overcome something which they previously felt was really hard. But he says that to truly achieve that aim, there are now no options or choices that will specifically make the game less challenging. So the game is harder than Demon's Souls.
My interpretation here is that what he is indirectly referring too would be the various cheese tactics for certain bosses in the original game, as well as stuff like playing as Royal and using Soul Arrow to make the initial parts of the game much easier. By removing these options and forcing players to more carefully consider how they can overcome the odds with skill and preparation instead of just picking an easier play style, the overall game will probably be seen as harder.
any kind of quick saving or checkpoint system that let you 'respawn' somewhere nearby without losing progress every time you died would completely ruin the atmosphere and what makes the game fun in the first place.
sure you don't have to use it, but being forced not to is part of what makes it so good. otherwise it would take far too much will power to bother doing it.
and on the flip-side, after exploring for 25 minutes and dying after falling off a cliff is completely soul crushing (pun intended) and makes people hate the game and give up.
OK, so From developed this and Demon's Souls... so what did Sony have to do with first game? Publisher in Japan right? And didn't I hear something about a Demon's Souls 2?
Quicksave and generous checkpoint system would be ace.
Plenty of other games manage to make their gameplay tense, challenging and rewarding without resorting to outdated conventions like erasing a lot of progress or making you replay long stretches of content again.
no, but there's nothing like the tense you feel in Demon's Souls. The consequence of death is so great in Demon's Souls that you actually feel genuine fear playing the game
I never played any other game like it. I still remember how my hands were trembling and my palms were sweating when I explored the prison.
and on the flip-side, after exploring for 25 minutes and dying after falling off a cliff is completely soul crushing (pun intended) and makes people hate the game and give up.
Well, let's be realistic here. Most of those weren't actually designed into the game. Even if they try hard to weed out such things in the next game, I'm sure players will still find exploits and cheese tactics somewhere, somehow.
no, but there's nothing like the tense you feel in Demon's Souls. The consequence of death is so great in Demon's Souls that you actually feel genuine fear playing the game
I never played any other game like it. I still remember how my hands were trembling and my palms were sweating when I explored the prison.
Well, let's be realistic here. Most of those weren't actually designed into the game. Even if they try hard to weed out such things in the next game, I'm sure players will still find exploits and cheese tactics somewhere, somehow.
Not at all. The idea of real consequences for death is a great gameplay mechanic. It makes you consider how carefully you play, rather than just rushing in and trying whatever it is you want randomly to see what sticks, even if it means dying, since the last checkpoint was 2 seconds ago.
its not so much masochism as that it completely changes the game play, because you cant just throw yourself at the same minute long section over and over when it gets hard like in most games. it also makes the atmosphere much better because you really care what happens.
without that it would be a pretty mediocre (and short) rpg imo
Not at all. The idea of real consequences for death is a great gameplay mechanic. It makes you consider how carefully you play, rather than just rushing in and trying whatever it is you want randomly to see what sticks, even if it means dying, since the last checkpoint was 2 seconds ago.
Well, taking that train of thought to its conclusion, a game that deletes all of your progress (character, progress, savegames etc.) upon dying once must be the most tense experience possible. But that's not at all what people want, because that'd be just plain frustrating.
What I'm trying to say is that what people consider appropriate or desirable in terms of punishment (death consequences) differs from person to person, and Demon's Souls design crossed the line from being challenging to being frustrating for many people.
Fans of its difficulty and low risk/reward ratio definitely skewer to the masochist side of the spectrum
even though my previous comment was originally intended as tongue in cheek with his trembling hands, sweating palms mention.
There's a whole other discussion to be had game-design wise here; if it's desirable to have the player be experimental in his gameplay approach, encouraging him to try new things as compared to punishing him for doing so and encouraging him to play slowly, deliberate and cautiously. But that's another tangent.
and yea great unique game like this deserves hardcore followers, if it weren't because of us, pimping it every single turn, this game would've not made a blip in the midst of all big-budget games with multi-billion dollars marketing
Well, taking that train of thought to its conclusion, a game that deletes all of your progress (character, progress, savegames etc.) upon dying once must be the most tense experience possible.
But that's not at all what people want, because that'd be just plain frustrating.
What I'm trying to say is that what people consider appropriate or desirable in terms of punishment (death consequences) differs from person to person, and Demon's Souls design crossed the line from being challenging to being frustrating for many people.
given you are complaining i'm going to assume you are one of the people who got frustrated and didnt play it much.. in which case I guess you want it made easier so you can play the game everyone is raving about..
problem is if you take out the penalty then its not the same game anymore. for example the terrifying atmosphere of the prison only works because there are enemies that can nearly one hit kill you, and you have to go back to the start when you die with all the enemies respawned.
but without that penalty, it would just be a case of cheesing every encounter one by one, saving each time, until everyone was dead, and there would be absolutely no tension.
and yea great unique game like this deserves hardcore followers, if it weren't because of us, pimping it every single turn, this game would've not made a blip in the midst of all big-budget games with multi-billion dollars marketing
Ive got to agree with you. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but the presence of this game on GAF has a lot to do with the official thread and all the great people that were and still are a major part of the community. The thread is just an amazing source of experiences and discussion
But my god. This sounds great. Fantastic. I'm incredibly excited for this. Guess its finally time to update my project dark watch page with the new info. Thanks duckroll for updating us!
Well, taking that train of thought to its conclusion, a game that deletes all of your progress (character, progress, savegames etc.) upon dying once must be the most tense experience possible. But that's not at all what people want, because that'd be just plain frustrating.
Diablo II does this with its Hardcore mode. It is tense and some people enjoy it. Some people even play high level PvP with it, knowing that to lose a match is to lose their character.
Demon's Souls had checkpoints. The game saved your location, enemy kills, items, etc every time you took a step. Also, if you got far enough in a dungeon and you unlock a shortcut that cuts away half (or more) of the level.
It worked well for Diablo. You die, you restart and have to go and find your stuff again. Diablo 2 added the option to restart the game and have your stuff appear, minus your xp and gold.
As an open-ended game, quick save would just make it too easy for people to run through. Plus add in the quick-save grinding glitches people are bound to find.
Those hardcore DS players that are still playing the game are the ones that will buy this one. They know what to expect and they know what they want.
Well that's me out. Demon's Souls was a polished game but was just too unforgiving. In the time I spent slogging through the first two levels I could have completed a whole other game. There's legitimate challenge, and there is the kind of Dragon's Lair shit that was in Demon's Souls.
I know a lot of games take hand-holding too far but DS takes it to the opposite extreme. Even the inventory screen has a bunch of squiggles instead of the actual stat names. When you are progressing in the game it is great fun, but when you hit a wall it stops being fun immediately and sadly there are a whole lot of walls, holes in the floor and monsters that you don't see until they are gnawing/burning/slashing your face off.
Dark Souls will be released in Japan in 2011. The game's overseas release on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 is being handled by Namco Bandai. Japan will get just the PlayStation 3 version, published by From itself.
There is no reason they shouldn't have an "easy" mode that opens the game up to a lot more people.
The easy mode would have more checkpoints, more health, and less annoying enemies. But they could still have a hard mode for those who were fine with the difficulty of Demon Souls.
No reason not to unless they are hell bent on earning that "Hardest game of all time" title.
I'm really shit at games these days. Don't have time to play lots, reflexes slowing down with old age etc. I approached Demon Souls with trepidation. With all the GAF hype I had to try it, but I fully expected to throw it through the TV within minutes.
I fucking loved it. It is hard, but not normal hard, it honestly smacks you about but you get up and carry on. Lots of other games are just frustratingly hard, but that wasn't for some reason.
Sounds amazing. I can't wait. Demon's Souls is one of my favourite PS3 games and this sounds like it's taking the best parts of that and making them even better. The whole field exploration sounds awesome.
They could make DS less unforgiving without adding quick save.
They could scale the gear higher against the enemies, which would still keep the challenge higher than other games but would not scare people off too much.
They could add an option where if a player dies over and over in the same play, the game would scale back the encounter or something. Like a dynamic difficulty. (i.e. Ninja Dog mode)
As long as they add New Game + and a Hardcore mode, that should cater to those DS players that relish a challenge.
There is definitely a hardcore fanbase for DS. They don't need to "water it down" for others. It would change the gameplay and experience. They need to release a video of some gameplay!
Agreed. With a similar cover, even the uninformed should clue in that it's a spiritual sequel.
zerokoolpsx said:
There is definitely a hardcore fanbase for DS. They don't need to "water it down" for others. It would change the gameplay and experience. They need to release a video of some gameplay!
This! The reason Demon's Souls was so successful was how challenging and rewarding they made the game. I hope they don't ruin it chasing after a mainstream that won't be interested anyways.
This game and The Last Guardian (although I doubt its 2011) will be amazing.
I really want to see the new connected world and how it works.
Haunted said:
I'll only hurt you from hugging you so hard.
Quicksave and generous checkpoint system would be ace.
Plenty of other games manage to make their gameplay tense, challenging and rewarding without resorting to outdated conventions like erasing a lot of progress or making you replay long stretches of content again.
Ya quicksave would break the game completely. Imagine if Zelda let you quicksave instead of sending you back to the beginning of the dungeon when you die like Demon's Souls does.
Demon's Souls level design is such that a level never takes more than 30 minutes once you know the layout, and can be completed in as quickly as 5 minutes. Why the hell do you need quicksave for levels that can be completed so quickly? It would lead to severe abuse, quicksaving before each enemy or before even taking a few steps forward. It would completely negate the use of environmental traps, ambush enemies, and make it so that you'd never have to see a level more than once.
Well, taking that train of thought to its conclusion, a game that deletes all of your progress (character, progress, savegames etc.) upon dying once must be the most tense experience possible. But that's not at all what people want, because that'd be just plain frustrating.
