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Faster loading times on Scarlett/PS5 will be dependent on optimisation and developer priorities (AI, Gfx, physics, HFR)

GHG

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How about you quote the full thing instead of taking it out of context for clickbait purposes?

This is the important bit to note that came before the quote in the OP:

However, since more data can be now used there can also be cases where production might be cheaper and faster when not optimizing content, which will lead into having to load much more data, leading back into a situation where you have about the same loading times as today."
 
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Inviusx

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He's outlining the problem in his statement. The common expectation is that things look/sound better which means maxing out the hardware for as much visual spectacle as possible at the expense of performance.

Why can't the expectation be that things look slightly better but at the same time perform VASTLY better than the previous generation.

I don't want another 8 years of 30FPS. Give me 8 years of games performing faster than ever before.
 

Shangounchained

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How about you quote the full thing instead of taking it out of context for clickbait purposes?

This is the important bit to note that came before the quote in the OP:

However, since more data can be now used there can also be cases where production might be cheaper and faster when not optimizing content, which will lead into having to load much more data, leading back into a situation where you have about the same loading times as today."
I'm not click baiting and I've posted the important thing


Basically with any computer, the more data you have the slower you can't have both you can't push ps5 to the limits and have it load instantly
 
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Shangounchained

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He's outlining the problem in his statement. The common expectation is that things look/sound better which means maxing out the hardware for as much visual spectacle as possible at the expense of performance.

Why can't the expectation be that things look slightly better but at the same time perform VASTLY better than the previous generation.

I don't want another 8 years of 30FPS. Give me 8 years of games performing faster than ever before.
Nope that's really stupid you can't have a ps5 with games looking like PS4 and call it a next gen console because it loads faster and has higher frame rates you should call it PS4 pro 2
 

Inviusx

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Nope that's really stupid you can't have a ps5 with games looking like PS4 and call it a next gen console because it loads faster and has higher frame rates you should call it PS4 pro 2
But why does next gen have to mean "the absolute best possibly graphics we can squeeze out of this hardware whilst maintaining 30fps most of the time".

Why can't next gen mean things like instant loading, unprecedented AI, new types of gameplay only possible on super fast hardware.

Why does it always have to fall back on super high fidelity graphics? He already explained that you can't have everything so why must it be bleeding edge graphics over everything else?
 

Golgo 13

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Sorry to break it to you all: the majority of games will STILL NOT BE 60 FPS on consoles. Ever. Doesn’t matter what the specs are (and they’re usually mid to upper mid range for the time they’re released and soon outdated). Developers will almost always choose graphical fidelity over frame rate as a selling point for a game. Average joe doesn’t give two shits about frame rate, he just wants his games to look the best they possibly can.

If you’re concerned with Performance in your games, become a PC enthusiast. That’s where you have the ability to control how your games run. Consoles are made for simplicity, easy of use, and comfort. PERIOD. They will never, ever, be primarily 60FPS.
 

Shangounchained

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But why does next gen have to mean "the absolute best possibly graphics we can squeeze out of this hardware whilst maintaining 30fps most of the time".

Why can't next gen mean things like instant loading, unprecedented AI, new types of gameplay only possible on super fast hardware.

Why does it always have to fall back on super high fidelity graphics? He already explained that you can't have everything so why must it be bleeding edge graphics over everything else?
well get everything from better ai to better gameplay like Sony's new rumourd haptic feedback ofcourse well get 60fps titles and 4k obviously the bottleneck this current gen was the poor CPUs but next gen were getting top top CPUs,

But as any generation any game specifically made to push a next gen console interns of fidelity and graphics will be 30fps 1080p that's the harsh truth this isn't a console limit its just common sense, 80 percent of consumers don't have 4k TVs and 30fps is the standard not every game has to be 60fps it's not a religion. And this isn't a console limitation even on pc if you push all the settings to maximum you'll end up with 14fps or lower it's a computing limitation you can't have enough processing power or memory.
 

Shangounchained

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Sorry to break it to you all: the majority of games will STILL NOT BE 60 FPS on consoles. Ever. Doesn’t matter what the specs are (and they’re usually mid to upper mid range for the time they’re released and soon outdated). Developers will almost always choose graphical fidelity over frame rate as a selling point for a game. Average joe doesn’t give two shits about frame rate, he just wants his games to look the best they possibly can.

If you’re concerned with Performance in your games, become a PC enthusiast. That’s where you have the ability to control how your games run. Consoles are made for simplicity, easy of use, and comfort. PERIOD. They will never, ever, be primarily 60FPS.
I don't know why people demand 60fps like a religious cult, I never cared of playing metal gear or splinter cell at 60fps y can't people understand it's a design thing, racing games feel good at 60fps ninja garden feels good at 60 fps but it doesn't mean everything should be 60 this is a fetish and a silly habit!
 
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Ar¢tos

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Strange assumption to make based purely on that (where loading is not even mentioned). Even with larger textures and more data to move the jump from hdd to ssd is MASSIVE, and will certainly shorten load times.
Tin foil hat season?
 

Panajev2001a

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Strange assumption to make based purely on that (where loading is not even mentioned). Even with larger textures and more data to move the jump from hdd to ssd is MASSIVE, and will certainly shorten load times.
Tin foil hat season?
Also, what I really like about closed / fixed specs HW generations (with exclusive software) is that, unlike a PC, you can customise the full stack from the file I/O logic in the kernel, to the SSD driver, to the SSD controller itself, etc... you are not building a PC part meant to be installed in tons of varied computers and are restricted to a generic interface and on the OS side you are not making a Windows/macOS change that needs to be tested on tons of different HW configs.
 

GHG

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I'm not click baiting and I've posted the important thing


Basically with any computer, the more data you have the slower you can't have both you can't push ps5 to the limits and have it load instantly
Yes because since SSD's have been introduced on the PC we have had widespread reports of the load times not improving for anything due to developers not bothering to optimise anything or use compression. Due to all that extra power available, why should they bother?

All that extra power has gone to waste and modern day PC's now chug when attempting to run the 2019 version of space invaders.
 
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Shangounchained

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Also, what I really like about closed / fixed specs HW generations (with exclusive software) is that, unlike a PC, you can customise the full stack from the file I/O logic in the kernel, to the SSD driver, to the SSD controller itself, etc... you are not building a PC part meant to be installed in tons of varied computers and are restricted to a generic interface and on the OS side you are not making a Windows/macOS change that needs to be tested on tons of different HW configs.
Simply put it this way with any computer when you push data to the maximum it's always going to be slower nomatter if Ur using ddr3 gddr6 or an SSD with every generation the top games that push consoles to the limit will always load slower it's whether you like it or not it's physics.
 

FranXico

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Yes because since SSD's have been introduced on the PC we have had widespread reports of the load times not improving for anything due to developers not bothering to optimise anything or use compression. Due to all that extra power available, why should they bother?

All that extra power has gone to waste and modern day PC's now chug when attempting to run the 2019 version of space invaders.
This talk is reminding me of the 90s and the peak of Java popularity LOL.
 
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Shangounchained

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Yes because since SSD's have been introduced on the PC we have had widespread reports of the load times not improving for anything due to developers not bothering to optimise anything or use compression. Due to all that extra power available, why should they bother?

All that extra power has gone to waste and modern day PC's now chug when attempting to run the 2019 version of space invaders.
It's not that power has gone to waste it's just how things are with great power comes more responsibility otherwise if you wanted better performance then we could have still be playing PS1 quality games in 2019 with instant loading and 10000 fps
 

Shangounchained

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Strange assumption to make based purely on that (where loading is not even mentioned). Even with larger textures and more data to move the jump from hdd to ssd is MASSIVE, and will certainly shorten load times.
Tin foil hat season?
More data means slower loading nomatter what you use computers don't have infinite processing power you can even max out a supercomputer by pushing more data I remember making simple viruses in notepad back in the day that simply function by duplicating texts until a computer freezes and breaks down! Hence why they showcased a PS4 title "Spiderman" loading faster on the ps5 ssd and not a proper next gen killzone title!
 

CurryPanda

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Sorry to break it to you all: the majority of games will STILL NOT BE 60 FPS on consoles. Ever. Doesn’t matter what the specs are (and they’re usually mid to upper mid range for the time they’re released and soon outdated). Developers will almost always choose graphical fidelity over frame rate as a selling point for a game. Average joe doesn’t give two shits about frame rate, he just wants his games to look the best they possibly can.

If you’re concerned with Performance in your games, become a PC enthusiast. That’s where you have the ability to control how your games run. Consoles are made for simplicity, easy of use, and comfort. PERIOD. They will never, ever, be primarily 60FPS.
Yep. If you want all the bells and whistles on, PC is the way to go.
 
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Ar¢tos

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More data means slower loading nomatter what you use computers don't have infinite processing power you can even max out a supercomputer by pushing more data I remember making simple viruses in notepad back in the day that simply function by duplicating texts until a computer freezes and breaks down! Hence why they showcased a PS4 title "Spiderman" loading faster on the ps5 ssd and not a proper next gen killzone title!
We already have 4k open world games on 100MB/s HDD drives. Do you honestly think that moving to 3-5GB/s SSD drives is not enough to reduce loadings even with 4x more data?
 
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demigod

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More data means slower loading nomatter what you use computers don't have infinite processing power you can even max out a supercomputer by pushing more data I remember making simple viruses in notepad back in the day that simply function by duplicating texts until a computer freezes and breaks down! Hence why they showcased a PS4 title "Spiderman" loading faster on the ps5 ssd and not a proper next gen killzone title!
It's not time to show off any of their next gen games yet. How about you wait for the reveal before trying to call them out.

You'd rather believe Remedy's technical director(most likely haven't even touched a PS5 devkit) that put out the garbage that is known as Control over Sony's architect known as the God Mark Cerny? I'll trust Cerny, thanks.
 

Shangounchained

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It's not time to show off any of their next gen games yet. How about you wait for the reveal before trying to call them out.

You'd rather believe Remedy's technical director(most likely haven't even touched a PS5 devkit) that put out the garbage that is known as Control over Sony's architect known as the God Mark Cerny? I'll trust Cerny, thanks.
I'll bet a billion pounds of I had some that high graphics games will still load slow on ps5 even ps10 if it loads instantly it simply means something was compromised! You can take a top of the line pc and it'll still struggle to load fast when you push a game maximum and overload it, it's a simple law of nature
 
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Shangounchained

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We already have 4k open world games on 100MB/s HDD drives. Do you honestly think that moving to 3-5GB/s SSD drives is not enough to reduce loadings even with 4x more data?
Bro with 3-5gb/s you'll get bigger 4k open world games that'll bottleneck that speed, yes you can load current open world games quicker on a ssd but what you don't understand and most people fail to understand is that next gen games come with next gen graphics they'll have bigger worlds bigger textures probably 10x the quality of assets and a dozen times the data to push and that 5gb/s will easily Max out!
 

demigod

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I'll bet a billion pounds of I had some that high graphics games will still load slow on ps5 even ps10 if it loads instantly it simply means something was compromised! You can take a top of the line pc and it'll still struggle to load fast when you push a game maximum and overload it, it's a simple law of nature
PCs do not even utilize full SSD speed for gaming so why are you even mentioning it? The PS5 will change that.
I thought you're a dev? You should know this.
 
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Ar¢tos

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Bro with 3-5gb/s you'll get bigger 4k open world games that'll bottleneck that speed, yes you can load current open world games quicker on a ssd but what you don't understand and most people fail to understand is that next gen games come with next gen graphics they'll have bigger worlds bigger textures probably 10x the quality of assets and a dozen times the data to push and that 5gb/s will easily Max out!
Yeah... No.
They are using the no load times/shorter load times as the selling point for one of the consoles, but what do they know?
You are obviously more tech savvy than anyone inside Sony or MS.

Edit : lol @ the title change
 
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cormack12

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I mean I get it but I think this is the first time we're really topping out at resolution for consoles, which means developers can switch focus. As of now there's no need to target anything beyond 4k, and if we're being honest 2160cb is fine for most of us with medium textures. It's about streaming the most acceptable trade off quickly. A lot of things we're asking for now is mainly physics or AI based. I think the shadowfall devs got 4MB at release. 4MB!!!

I think they're saying that they are at the point where they've reached diminishing returns on open world streaming. Control was a game that by and large really relied on collision and effects and there probably wasn't much headroom to push those aspects.

PS5's SSD might not load PS5 games that much faster than the previous gen. In short, we might not want to expect blazing-fast speeds for PS5 games because they can use more data and devs can cut corners.
 

Panajev2001a

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Simply put it this way with any computer when you push data to the maximum it's always going to be slower nomatter if Ur using ddr3 gddr6 or an SSD with every generation the top games that push consoles to the limit will always load slower it's whether you like it or not it's physics.
? It is kind of obvious that no matter the system you setup someone could push past its limits and slow it all down... not sure how it has any bearing on what I said.
 
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Whitecrow

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Yeah... No.
They are using the no load times/shorter load times as the selling point for one of the consoles, but what do they know?
You are obviously more tech savvy than anyone inside Sony or MS.

Edit : lol @ the title change
Even if he is wrong in the numbers, he is not wrong in the reasoning and can be perfectly right.
If you increase the loading speed, loading time decreases, but if you also have to load a lot more things, loading time increases.

is as easy as that even if you are not a tech savvy.
 
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Ar¢tos

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Even if he is wrong in the numbers, he is not wrong in the reasoning and can be perfectly right.
If you increase the loading speed, loading time decreases, but if you also have to load a lot more things, loading time increases.

is as easy as that even if you are not a tech savvy.
If you ignore that the speed jump is 30-50x, we are not talking about double speed.
If you ignore that a console is not a pc, where you can very easily get a reading optimized file system (unlike the balanced pc file systems), custom reading optimized drive firmware is not far fetched, since all consoles will ship with the same ssd, and maybe a bit more far fetched but still possible, a custom read optimized controller (that Sony has a patent for already).
 

GymWolf

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Terrible news.

I'm super okay with long loading times but next gen features activated.

Read a book while you wait the loading people...

Devs please don't make old gen game just to have 3 sec loading times, please.
 
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lyan

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Yeah... No.
They are using the no load times/shorter load times as the selling point for one of the consoles, but what do they know?
You are obviously more tech savvy than anyone inside Sony or MS.

Edit : lol @ the title change
Do note however that unless Sony or MS refuse to certify a game due to it not utilizing the IO capabilities, how short the load times is deemed acceptable is entirely the developer's choice. While such choice will be influenced by the market's reception towards loading times, today, anecdotally, it does seem that to the mass load times is only a "hygiene factor".
 

Dontero

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So instant loading will just be for backward compatible games ?
There won't be instant loading times.

PS5 is getting an SSD. What is SSD and its effect on games ? Look at PC:

Cuts down loading times in half or more. Assuming comparing to same game.
Nothing on other hand says developers can't increase amount of data used that would render such upgrade to stay in same place with loadings as today.

The only way to have instant gameplay without loading is to have arcade machine or cartrige, real one with hardware to run game not fake ones like those for 3DS whic hwere just memory card.
 
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o'dium

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People REALLY need to keep their expectations in check for next gen, on all formats. I wish people would just come back down to Earth.

Its like this... If you give a guy a pint of beer, he will drink it all. If you give him 10 pints on beer but tell him "you will have a better experience with 5"... He will still drink all 10.

If the power is there, its there to be used. And devs will make the call if they want to lock it at 60 fps, or 30 fps, or have stuttering shit shows of 17-29fps. That's the dev. I was playing 120fps games 20 years ago with ease, it all depends on what you do with the hardware.
 

Shangounchained

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Yeah... No.
They are using the no load times/shorter load times as the selling point for one of the consoles, but what do they know?
You are obviously more tech savvy than anyone inside Sony or MS.

Edit : lol @ the title change
It's marketing and a selling point! Right as u said doesn't mean outckme or games will perform as they say, developers design games as they like to not because Sony or Microsoft want instant loading, or as Microsoft said 120fps 8k resolutions,

wake up and smell the coffee its not a rule that next gen games have to load perfect they simply said it's capable theoretically.
 

Shangounchained

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PCs do not even utilize full SSD speed for gaming so why are you even mentioning it? The PS5 will change that.
I thought you're a dev? You should know this.
I used pc as an example and I don't have to be a dev to understand this same way you don't have to be a female model to know a beautiful woman, in computing you can slow down or break any computer by throwing more data into it it's simple physics
 

Shangounchained

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Not gonna lie, GAF, faster loading times* is not nearly as sexy as the better resolution and performance that was promised last generation.
I honestly never cared about faster loading times, yes it's comfortable booting windows quicker we've all been there or loading a game quicker but I don't buy a game because it loads faster and since nobody ever! I buy a game because the graphics gave me goosebumps!
 

Inviusx

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There won't be instant loading times.

PS5 is getting an SSD. What is SSD and its effect on games ? Look at PC:

Cuts down loading times in half or more. Assuming comparing to same game.
Nothing on other hand says developers can't increase amount of data used that would render such upgrade to stay in same place with loadings as today.

The only way to have instant gameplay without loading is to have arcade machine or cartrige, real one with hardware to run game not fake ones like those for 3DS whic hwere just memory card.
Instant doesn't need to literally mean "instant" in this context.

If I can load into Cyberpunks open world in 5 seconds compared to 120 then it might as well be considered "instant" compared to what we have now with consoles.
 
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mejin

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as always only a few talented developers (with money and time) like Sony WWS will do the magic with the hardware.
 
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Kenpachii

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instant load will not happen for the same reason why the PS4 doesn't have instant load in there games.

No amount of SSD speed will change this.

Which also makes all those topics about insane SSD speed that sony is going to push on exotic hardware solutions completely ridiculous.
 
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