Support NeoGAF

[wzy]

I loved all the classic JRPGs back in the day, including FF VII (which I actually preordered and got on 9/4/97, 3 days before the official date

But I just can’t stomach those old battle systems anymore. They bore me to tears.

I still love everything else about VII (music, story, characters, overall atmosphere and aesthetic) so I am overjoyed that they aren’t using an old fashioned FF battle system.

I’ve concluded that it just isn’t possible to make a turn-based battle system that remains fun and fresh over the course of a 40+ hour game where you’ll face the same group of enemies maybe dozens of times. Either you’re making the same brain dead easy decisions over and over (heal when HP low, use the element that can hurt this enemy, etc). Or they try to spice it up with some new mechanics that may be interesting for a few hours, but just become more busywork once the novelty has worn off.

And yeah that includes the DQ XI, Persona 5, and Octopath. I played all of them and lost interest midway through, primarily because the battles just became an annoying and way too frequent chore.

Did you come to this conclusion by making shit up about those games, too? Because everything you've said about FFVII is just dead wrong or framed so dishonestly that it may as well be. Note that just making things up is actually the most charitable interpretation of this criticism. If you actually played through FFVII in the manner suggested by that video, a much more logical conclusion is just that you're really, really stupid.

 

[stickkidsam]

Those chosen by the Planet

Holy mother of God, I cannot wait to shit my pants when this theme finally plays, in all it's horrific and ominously remade glory.

I've always felt this theme encapsulated the terror of Sephiroth, and if they fuck up that pacing with melodrama, my jimmies will be QUITE MIFFED.

 

[Thabass]

Those chosen by the Planet

Holy mother of God, I cannot wait to shit my pants when this theme finally plays, in all it's horrific and ominously remade glory.

I've always felt this theme encapsulated the terror of Sephiroth, and if they fuck up that pacing with melodrama, my jimmies will be QUITE MIFFED.

I've always considered this his theme song and not One Winged Angel. I mean, after the fact and in other games yes, but in VII itself, this was his theme to me.

 

[GenericUser]

Wow! Really? Why is that? Does Google pay out ad money by the length of time the video?

yes really. There is also a rule I believe that videos that are longer then 10 minutes make more money in general. Just take a look how many videos there are that are just 10:04 min or 10:18 min etc. Youtube is all about the money.

 

[mckmas8808]

yes really. There is also a rule I believe that videos that are longer then 10 minutes make more money in general. Just take a look how many videos there are that are just 10:04 min or 10:18 min etc. Youtube is all about the money.

I hate the fact that the "business" of this stuff, always seems to mess up the content side. Now content creators are designing their videos a certain way because they are incentivized to make more money to be worse overall.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Did you come to this conclusion by making shit up about those games, too? Because everything you've said about FFVII is just dead wrong or framed so dishonestly that it may as well be. Note that just making things up is actually the most charitable interpretation of this criticism. If you actually played through FFVII in the manner suggested by that video, a much more logical conclusion is just that you're really, really stupid.

He's not wrong.

The majority of the random encounters in ffvii is the same couple of enemies over and over. Each dungeon changes the bestiary, and there are many ways to dispatch your foes, but in the end ... just spamming attack and not using materia is a brain dead, but legit, strategy.

This was cool back in the day, but today - unless they spice up the strategy - it's just not as cool and satisfying as real-time combat.

 

[Thabass]

He's not wrong.

The majority of the random encounters in ffvii is the same couple of enemies over and over. Each dungeon changes the bestiary, and there are many ways to dispatch your foes, but in the end ... just spamming attack and not using materia is a brain dead, but legit, strategy.

This was cool back in the day, but today - unless they spice up the strategy - it's just not as cool and satisfying as real-time combat.

To be fair, unless they make it so strategy is a legitimate way to beat some of the more notorious enemies, spamming square here won't be much different.

 

[shark sandwich]

To be fair, unless they make it so strategy is a legitimate way to beat some of the more notorious enemies, spamming square here won't be much different.

I’m assuming there will still be timing, aiming, dodging, positioning your character, etc to take into consideration. It’s not like you’ll be sitting there choosing “attack” from a menu.

 

[Thabass]

I’m assuming there will still be timing, aiming, dodging, positioning your character, etc to take into consideration. It’s not like you’ll be sitting there choosing “attack” from a menu.

That's true, it definitely won't be like that at all. But I do hope they add positional attacks and actually make magic matter as well. Kingdom Hearts always failed making magic useful (sans Cure) and FFXV was laughable using actual magic attacks that wasn't warp.

 

[wzy]

He's not wrong.

The majority of the random encounters in ffvii is the same couple of enemies over and over. Each dungeon changes the bestiary, and there are many ways to dispatch your foes, but in the end ... just spamming attack and not using materia is a brain dead, but legit, strategy.

This was cool back in the day, but today - unless they spice up the strategy - it's just not as cool and satisfying as real-time combat.

Uh, this is the Final Fantasy VII beastiary. Of the 240+ non-boss enemies, more than 2/3rds are unique, meaning not palette swaps or variant types. I can't even think of one area in the entire game that has fewer that 4 enemy types. Can you? Ten seconds of Googling also revealed this:

Yeesh! I wonder why obstinate morons don't like this battle system? They'd have to spend 300% more time in battle than a player who took advantage of Materia. Why would anyone do this? And an action game has more... what? Tactical depth? This is such a bizarre gripe about the original game I almost don't even know what to say. I can tell you that at the time of release, the most typical kind of complaint about FFVII battles was that physical attacks were useless. Have you just Mandela'd an entirely new game for this thread?

 

[Thabass]

Uh, this is the Final Fantasy VII beastiary. Of the 240+ non-boss enemies, more than 2/3rds are unique, meaning not palette swaps or variant types. I can't even think of one area in the entire game that has fewer that 4 enemy types. Can you? Ten seconds of Googling also revealed this:

Yeesh! I wonder why obstinate morons don't like this battle system? They'd have to spend 300% more time in battle than a player who took advantage of Materia. Why would anyone do this? And an action game has more... what? Tactical depth? This is such a bizarre gripe about the original game I almost don't even know what to say. I can tell you that at the time of release, the most typical kind of complaint about FFVII battles was that physical attacks were useless. Have you just Mandela'd an entirely new game for this thread?

This is pretty true. I think that's why FFVII was damn good in regards to the battle system. The materia system made a lot of what I love about these games good: Magic actually mattered. FFVIII's magic system was useless, but FFIX's magic system was incredible. Also I think besides Red XIII and Cloud, the rest of the party's normal attacks were pretty garbage.

But it's been a while since I've played VII.

 

[Psykodad]

And still, Remake is not gonna go with the old battlesystem, because they wanted something else.

All this defensiveness over a niche battlesystem that isn't going to change a thing about the Remake.

 

[wzy]

And still, Remake is not gonna go with the old battlesystem, because they wanted something else.

All this defensiveness over a niche battlesystem that isn't going to change a thing about the Remake.

Defensiveness? Who was forcing you to get into it with people when this topic first came up? Somebody put a gun to your head and said "listen buddy, you had better deal with the critics in the NeoGAF thread! And don't even think about being anything less than the most dishonest, tedious, pathetic dickrider imaginable or I'll pull the trigger"? No, you're right, it's definitely the people defending the universally beloved high watermark of the medium who have something to prove, here.

 

[Thabass]

Defensiveness? Who was forcing you to get into it with people when this topic first came up? Somebody put a gun to your head and said "listen buddy, you had better deal with the critics in the NeoGAF thread! And don't even think about being anything less than the most dishonest, tedious, pathetic dickrider imaginable or I'll pull the trigger"? No, you're right, it's definitely the people defending the universally beloved high watermark of the medium who have something to prove, here.

I really think you need to take a break from this thread. It's just a game, my dude.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Uh, this is the Final Fantasy VII beastiary. Of the 240+ non-boss enemies, more than 2/3rds are unique, meaning not palette swaps or variant types.

I wasn't referring to enemy design. I was referring to the fact that almost all enemies in FFVII do not require any tactics whatsoever and do the exact same thing - melee or ranged attack that deals dmg. 90% of the bestiary do not impose status ailments or force you to change your stratagem in any way whatsoever. So basically, it's the same enemy everytime, just looking different.

Yeesh! I wonder why obstinate morons don't like this battle system? They'd have to spend 300% more time in battle than a player who took advantage of Materia. Why would anyone do this? And an action game has more... what? Tactical depth? This is such a bizarre gripe about the original game I almost don't even know what to say. I can tell you that at the time of release, the most typical kind of complaint about FFVII battles was that physical attacks were useless. Have you just Mandela'd an entirely new game for this thread?

First of all, chill with the insults. Just because I don't worship a mediocre implementation of a gameplay system doesn't automatically make me (or anyone else) a moron. Turn-based battles can be amazing, deep, and adrenaline pumping. This isn't the case in FFVII. Most of the battles equate to 'Attack, Attack, Attack, Attack, Cast Heal Spell (if the enemies inflict enough damage to make you doubt whether or not your character will make the round), Attack, Attack'. The bosses are cheap as fuck because they have immunity to almost all your spells (which makes you wonder what was the point of evolving your materia) which cause you to deploy the same attack attack attack tactic. It could be so much better.
Take FFX, for example. I LOVED the fact that bosses weren't immune to status effects and you could use effective strategies with your spells to cause handicaps and penalties. FFVII? No, none of that shit. Attack Attack Attack.
The remake has the opportunity to fix all that and make the game awesome to play, instead of just experiencing a good storyline with interesting characters.
I love FFVII, but I'm not going to act as if it is a perfect game in any way and that the remake cannot vastly improve upon the original. It is a very old game, gameplay has evolved a LOT since then, and it can be easily improved without the need of panic attacks by its hardcore fanbase.

 

[Psykodad]

Defensiveness? Who was forcing you to get into it with people when this topic first came up? Somebody put a gun to your head and said "listen buddy, you had better deal with the critics in the NeoGAF thread! And don't even think about being anything less than the most dishonest, tedious, pathetic dickrider imaginable or I'll pull the trigger"? No, you're right, it's definitely the people defending the universally beloved high watermark of the medium who have something to prove, here.

You've got some serious issues, my man.

There's a thread dedicated to Remake's gameplay/battlesystem. I suggest you go there to vent.

 

[Thabass]

I wasn't referring to enemy design. I was referring to the fact that almost all enemies in FFVII do not require any tactics whatsoever and do the exact same thing - melee or ranged attack that deals dmg. 90% of the bestiary do not impose status ailments or force you to change your stratagem in any way whatsoever. So basically, it's the same enemy everytime, just looking different.



First of all, chill with the insults. Just because I don't worship a mediocre implementation of a gameplay system doesn't automatically make me (or anyone else) a moron. Turn-based battles can be amazing, deep, and adrenaline pumping. This isn't the case in FFVII. Most of the battles equate to 'Attack, Attack, Attack, Attack, Cast Heal Spell (if the enemies inflict enough damage to make you doubt whether or not your character will make the round), Attack, Attack'. The bosses are cheap as fuck because they have immunity to almost all your spells (which makes you wonder what was the point of evolving your materia) which cause you to deploy the same attack attack attack tactic. It could be so much better.

Take FFX, for example. I LOVED the fact that bosses weren't immune to status effects and you could use effective strategies with your spells to cause handicaps and penalties. FFVII? No, none of that shit. Attack Attack Attack.

The remake has the opportunity to fix all that and make the game awesome to play, instead of just experiencing a good storyline with interesting characters.

I love FFVII, but I'm not going to act as if it is a perfect game in any way and that the remake cannot vastly improve upon the original. It is a very old game, gameplay has evolved a LOT since then, and it can be easily improved without the need of panic attacks by its hardcore fanbase.

Might want to fix the black text.

But I agree with you. Hardcore fans need to chill a bit and give the game a chance.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Might want to fix the black text.
But I agree with you. Hardcore fans need to chill a bit and give the game a chance.

Better now?

 

[shark sandwich]

“Sometimes it’s faster to 1-shot the entire enemy party with a spell than to use basic attacks” ...yes, this is truly the foundation of a great strategic battle system. Sorry if I lack the intelligence to fully understand the nuances.

 

[Thabass]

Better now?

Looks good!

 

[Nickolaidas]

Looks good!

I now actually copy/paste my response to notepad, THEN paste it again on GAF (in order for the text to appear ok). Don't know what the problem is. My text preferences must have 'stuck' in some kind of color glitch or something.

 

[Thabass]

I now actually copy/paste my response to notepad, THEN paste it again on GAF (in order for the text to appear ok). Don't know what the problem is. My text preferences must have 'stuck' in some kind of color glitch or something.

Make sure when you paste it in you paste it as "paste as plain text". This makes it so no colors or any other format changes are carried over.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Make sure when you paste it in you paste it as "paste as plain text". This makes it so no colors or any other format changes are carried over.

But the weird thing is that when you complain about 'the black text', all I did was quote you and type on the text window in GAF, without using anything else. I don't paste anything. Now, copy/pasting the entire text (with your quote) on notepad and THEN copy/pasting it again on GAF … somehow fixes the problem. I think that's because notepad does not retain any text properties like color, so the text appears correct on GAF when pasted from Notepad.

It's really weird - I've been using GAF for months now, and it is only recently (after copy pasting some paragraphs from reddit pages) that this problem appeared.

 

[Thabass]

But the weird thing is that when you complain about 'the black text', all I did was quote you and type on the text window in GAF, without using anything else. I don't paste anything. Now, copy/pasting the entire text (with your quote) on notepad and THEN copy/pasting it again on GAF … somehow fixes the problem. I think that's because notepad does not retain any text properties like color, so the text appears correct on GAF when pasted from Notepad.

It's really weird - I've been using GAF for months now, and it is only recently (after copy pasting some paragraphs from reddit pages) that this problem appeared.

Wow. That is very strange.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Wow. That is very strange.

Ross Knows GIF - Friends Ross Geller David Schwimmer - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

 

[wzy]

I wasn't referring to enemy design. I was referring to the fact that almost all enemies in FFVII do not require any tactics whatsoever and do the exact same thing - melee or ranged attack that deals dmg. 90% of the bestiary do not impose status ailments or force you to change your stratagem in any way whatsoever. So basically, it's the same enemy everytime, just looking different.

I guess be more specific, then? Your exact words were: "the same couple of enemies over and over". And anyway this is so reductive that it could be a criticism of 99% of all videogames that have combat. Yes, you do damage to lower enemy HP. I'm not psychic or anything but it's a pretty good bet they're keeping this system in the Remake, too. What does this have to do with how combat is structured?

First of all, chill with the insults. Just because I don't worship a mediocre implementation of a gameplay system doesn't automatically make me (or anyone else) a moron. Turn-based battles can be amazing, deep, and adrenaline pumping. This isn't the case in FFVII. Most of the battles equate to 'Attack, Attack, Attack, Attack, Cast Heal Spell (if the enemies inflict enough damage to make you doubt whether or not your character will make the round), Attack, Attack'. The bosses are cheap as fuck because they have immunity to almost all your spells (which makes you wonder what was the point of evolving your materia) which cause you to deploy the same attack attack attack tactic. It could be so much better.

Take FFX, for example. I LOVED the fact that bosses weren't immune to status effects and you could use effective strategies with your spells to cause handicaps and penalties. FFVII? No, none of that shit. Attack Attack Attack.

Listen, if someone said "I beat all the Mega Man games using only the buster. They were really boring and shallow. I therefore conclude that platformers are bad." you'd call them a moron. And you'd be right! The fact that FFVII doesn't murder your entire party and delete your save because you didn't cast L4 Suicide on Madouge is not actually a very good criticism of the combat. But again, if you want to make this argument then at least start with something factually true. Here's your shot. Which of these bosses is immune to magic?

The remake has the opportunity to fix all that and make the game awesome to play, instead of just experiencing a good storyline with interesting characters.

I love FFVII, but I'm not going to act as if it is a perfect game in any way and that the remake cannot vastly improve upon the original. It is a very old game, gameplay has evolved a LOT since then, and it can be easily improved without the need of panic attacks by its hardcore fanbase.

But no one has said there's no room for improvement in the original game.

 

[Nickolaidas]

I guess be more specific, then? Your exact words were: "the same couple of enemies over and over". And anyway this is so reductive that it could be a criticism of 99% of all videogames that have combat. Yes, you do damage to lower enemy HP. I'm not psychic or anything but it's a pretty good bet they're keeping this system in the Remake, too. What does this have to do with how combat is structured?

Listen, if someone said "I beat all the Mega Man games using only the buster. They were really boring and shallow. I therefore conclude that platformers are bad." you'd call them a moron. And you'd be right! The fact that FFVII doesn't murder your entire party and delete your save because you didn't cast L4 Suicide on Madouge is not actually a very good criticism of the combat. But again, if you want to make this argument then at least start with something factually true. Here's your shot. Which of these bosses is immune to magic?

But no one has said there's no room for improvement in the original game.

I'm not interested in starting a dick-measuring contest with you, so I'll keep it brief.

Yes 99% of video games keep a formula, a game structure which repeats itself over and over. The game gives you a toolset to use over and over. As long as the gameplay is addictive and fun, repetition doesn't matter. However, the game excels when it teaches you indirectly how to use said toolset. FFVII doesn't do that. It never properly encourages you to use the tools in your disposal (limit breaks, materia) because it almost never uses enemies that urge you to use said toolset. As long as all you do is mash the Attack Command, you'll eventually beat the game without ever knowing what the heck the Knights of the Round were all about.

Ninja Gaiden (Sigma) is an excellent example of a game where you learn to use your toolset. Magic, dodging, special attacks - if you try to mash square to beat the game, you'll get your ass handed to you. Despite FFVII being a turn based strategy game and Ninja Gaiden being an action hack and slash, I consider Ninja Gaiden's gameplay a vastly superior implementation of a toolset because Ninja Gaiden Sigma forces you to play the game the way it's meant to be played, and enjoy yourself while doing so. FFVII never bothers to encourage you to use materia (other than forcing you to see a tutorial near the beginning of the game) and materia aren't really vital when playing the game. That's a weakness of the game's structure.

A Mega Man game which would give you twenty different abilities and yet never bother to make encounters or environmental hazards where said abilities would encourage the player to use them would indeed be boring and shallow. If the gameplay doesn't encourage experimentation, it is not challenging. If it isn't challenging, it isn't fun.

And again, chill. If you cannot make civilized conversation without resorting to name-calling and insults, don't even bother to reply. I'm being far more polite than you deserve, and I expect the same in return.

 

[Thabass]

Jesus. There are literally no depths they won't sink to.

 

[stickkidsam]

Jesus. There are literally no depths they won't sink to.

I'm honestly convinced these people are just trolls.

There's no way someone can be that stupid... right?

 

[CyberPanda]

Jesus. There are literally no depths they won't sink to.

He’s still black, and its the lighting that makes him look that way. These are just SJW trolls trying to get attention. And, they are primarily self hating dummies.

 

[wzy]

I'm not interested in starting a dick-measuring contest with you, so I'll keep it brief.

Why don't you just keep it nothing if you're gonna pull this kind of shit? Post or don't post, coward. Everyone is this thread is pretending they don't want to have the argument but that hasn't stopped you from biting every single time.

Yes 99% of video games keep a formula, a game structure which repeats itself over and over. The game gives you a toolset to use over and over. As long as the gameplay is addictive and fun, repetition doesn't matter. However, the game excels when it teaches you indirectly how to use said toolset. FFVII doesn't do that. It never properly encourages you to use the tools in your disposal (limit breaks, materia) because it almost never uses enemies that urge you to use said toolset. As long as all you do is mash the Attack Command, you'll eventually beat the game without ever knowing what the heck the Knights of the Round were all about.

But it does encourage you to use the other tools in the box. Of course it does! You clear encounters faster, you heal less, you use fewer consumables, and it just feels good. This is such an absurd, dishonest criticism of the game and it has no relationship to how people actually play FFVII. That's why the video you're defending is a slapped together mod showcase and not just any of the million Let's Plays you or the other one could have found to back up this horseshit.

Ninja Gaiden (Sigma) is an excellent example of a game where you learn to use your toolset. Magic, dodging, special attacks - if you try to mash square to beat the game, you'll get your ass handed to you. Despite FFVII being a turn based strategy game and Ninja Gaiden being an action hack and slash, I consider Ninja Gaiden's gameplay a vastly superior implementation of a toolset because Ninja Gaiden Sigma forces you to play the game the way it's meant to be played, and enjoy yourself while doing so. FFVII never bothers to encourage you to use materia (other than forcing you to see a tutorial near the beginning of the game) and materia aren't really vital when playing the game. That's a weakness of the game's structure.

It's not a "weakness", it's a design choice, and it's actually a smarter one than you think. Part of giving the player options means giving them good, bad, and okay choices to make. In a game that generally can't predict what the characters are capable of doing, it makes sense to provide minimally-viable alternatives to the "best" play. FFX has more freedom to push-pull because the entire roster is available, but it makes other generally pretty bad compromises to get there.

A Mega Man game which would give you twenty different abilities and yet never bother to make encounters or environmental hazards where said abilities would encourage the player to use them would indeed be boring and shallow. If the gameplay doesn't encourage experimentation, it is not challenging. If it isn't challenging, it isn't fun.

And again, chill. If you cannot make civilized conversation without resorting to name-calling and insults, don't even bother to reply. I'm being far more polite than you deserve, and I expect the same in return.

But Final Fantasy VII does, objectively, encourage you to use different abilities, in exactly the same way that Mega Man does: they are better than not using them.

As to the last bit: blow me. Disingenuous, dishonest, tedious argument is no better than trolling. If you want a more civil reply, drop this whole line of argument. It has zero relevance to the question of turn-based versus action and bears only slightly more relevance to shark sandwich's argument, which is not that FFVII in particular has "bad" turn-based gameplay, but that good turn-based gameplay is impossible. You already cited FFX as an example of a good system so I know even you don't actually think he's right.

Trust me, the ways in which you're both wrong are 1000% more grating than just being called an idiot, which I didn't even call you and even if I had is something you might want to get used to.

 

[Bill O'Rights]

Hey


Clearly there are some passions riding high in here. A lot of investment which is good to see! Without singling anyone out can we just detach the argument from any personal remarks. We understand frustration sets in and the 'you're just not getting it' syndrome which exacerbates people's blood pressure but it tends to escalates beyond control. Let's agree to deescalate the situation because it's always a shame (and last resort) removing people from the thread who are quite clearly heavily engaged in the IP.


Just mash the keyboard and get all your thoughts out there, then go back and just take a few minutes to reread your points, and then you can see the superfluous personal and antagonistic remarks and just snip them out.

 

[MafiaMurderBag]

I can't understand why there's a need to get so angry and defend a game that heaven forbid, somebody doesn't enjoy? so what, his loss if he doesn't get it.

Any RE: That picture of Barrett, without even reading the tweet thread, could it be they're actually referring to his nose/nostrils lacking the shape and characteristics of an African Americans nose?

 

[stickkidsam]

I can't believe I forgot about seeing the classic designs in the Advent Children opening.

Absolutely love Barret's look there. Give Tifa some longer hair and it's about perfect .

I just really love the simple but unique designs each character had. They've managed to preserve Cloud and Aerith's, so I hope that Tifa will get similar treatment.

Barret's new look is good, though I wish he wasn't wearing the undershirt, as that bare chested vest thing was sweet. This is a pretty good comparison sheet I found.

Any RE: That picture of Barrett, without even reading the tweet thread, could it be they're actually referring to his nose/nostrils lacking the shape and characteristics of an African Americans nose?

Could be but I think it looks pretty close to his original art in shape.

I just wish he was broader in buffness and along his jawline.

 

[WindomURL]

Just recently kind of forced myself into playing XV after having tried it a couple years ago and immediately putting it down due to the combat.

Something clicked, and I managed to begin enjoying it. Whereas before I found the crew and combat entirely repellent, I suddenly began getting soft feelings for dem bois, and the spectacle and kineticism of the combat became a draw, despite its vapidity (not to mention the CAMERA FAK IT'S OBSCURED BY BUSHES AGAIN). But then something de-clicked and I put it back down. The entire aura of the game feels like something akin to zealously forcing a square peg into a round hole.

Anyway, VII has a very, very special place in my heart so I can't help but get excited for this. Learning a bit more about the combat has assuaged some of my initial concerns, having recently come off XV and seeing many apparent similarities in the available footage, though I do very much enjoy the sort of methodical, zen atb turn based old-school style and wish more of that had persisted.

It'll be neat to see how they convey the VIBEZ that saturate the original in fancy 2019 graphics. Excite!

 

[Psykodad]

I can't understand why there's a need to get so angry and defend a game that heaven forbid, somebody doesn't enjoy? so what, his loss if he doesn't get it.

The only person getting angry is the guy you're defending right now. :/

Anyway, again, there's a dedicated thread to discuss the battle system, so maybe that discussion should move over to that thread.

 

[MafiaMurderBag]

I can't believe I forgot about seeing the classic designs in the Advent Children opening.

Barret's new look is good, though I wish he wasn't wearing the undershirt, as that bare chested vest thing was sweet. This is a pretty good comparison sheet I found.

Could be but I think it looks pretty close to his original art in shape.

I just wish he was broader in buffness and along his jawline.

I don't mind the realistically proportioned characters, They've still got a stylized look to them that reminds you the goal isn't to make them hyper realistic. I just wish Barrett weren't wearing the shades...

 

[Paltheos]

I wasn't referring to enemy design. I was referring to the fact that almost all enemies in FFVII do not require any tactics whatsoever and do the exact same thing - melee or ranged attack that deals dmg. 90% of the bestiary do not impose status ailments or force you to change your stratagem in any way whatsoever. So basically, it's the same enemy everytime, just looking different.

First of all, chill with the insults. Just because I don't worship a mediocre implementation of a gameplay system doesn't automatically make me (or anyone else) a moron. Turn-based battles can be amazing, deep, and adrenaline pumping. This isn't the case in FFVII. Most of the battles equate to 'Attack, Attack, Attack, Attack, Cast Heal Spell (if the enemies inflict enough damage to make you doubt whether or not your character will make the round), Attack, Attack'. The bosses are cheap as fuck because they have immunity to almost all your spells (which makes you wonder what was the point of evolving your materia) which cause you to deploy the same attack attack attack tactic. It could be so much better.
Take FFX, for example. I LOVED the fact that bosses weren't immune to status effects and you could use effective strategies with your spells to cause handicaps and penalties. FFVII? No, none of that shit. Attack Attack Attack.
The remake has the opportunity to fix all that and make the game awesome to play, instead of just experiencing a good storyline with interesting characters.
I love FFVII, but I'm not going to act as if it is a perfect game in any way and that the remake cannot vastly improve upon the original. It is a very old game, gameplay has evolved a LOT since then, and it can be easily improved without the need of panic attacks by its hardcore fanbase.

FFX's a really smart game. I always liked the world and story and progression design, but I didn't really appreciate how smart the battles are until I replayed it last year. Most of the bosses ask you to figure out the best way to fight it, and some of the encounters can be pretty rough. I think I game overed only a few times, but the encounters are designed to ask you to get the most out of how far the game's expected you to have progressed on the sphere grid, and this isn't a game where you can really grind effectively until endgame so you've gotta come at these encounters clean (and if you're playing on the expert grid and have deviated a bit from the intended path you can expect a challenge).

 

[Nickolaidas]

Why don't you just keep it nothing if you're gonna pull this kind of shit? Post or don't post, coward. Everyone is this thread is pretending they don't want to have the argument but that hasn't stopped you from biting every single time.

I think you have some serious anger issues and you need to look into it. People are talking about game design and you act as if someone called your mother fat or something. What worries me most is the fact that being a FFVII fan means you're possibly over thirty, and it is very concerning to see a grown man talk like this. Yeah, I get it, internet anonymity can do wonders in making you feel you can be an ass with impunity, but still, no reason to get so overly hostile over just. A video. Game.

But it does encourage you to use the other tools in the box. Of course it does! You clear encounters faster, you heal less, you use fewer consumables, and it just feels good. This is such an absurd, dishonest criticism of the game and it has no relationship to how people actually play FFVII. That's why the video you're defending is a slapped together mod showcase and not just any of the million Let's Plays you or the other one could have found to back up this horseshit.
It's not a "weakness", it's a design choice, and it's actually a smarter one than you think. Part of giving the player options means giving them good, bad, and okay choices to make. In a game that generally can't predict what the characters are capable of doing, it makes sense to provide minimally-viable alternatives to the "best" play.

Do you also think that Dark Souls would have achieved the acclaim and praise it got if you had the option to beat the game without the need to block, dodge or use spells, and could be defeated by mindlessly slashing away at foes (while never denying you the option to use the former tools)?
No, because providing you with a toolset and giving you challenges which actually *do* encourage you to use it in order to win is a much better choice than giving the tools so it could help you 'save some time'.

Jesus. There are literally no depths they won't sink to.

Okay, this is just ridiculous.

 

[D.Final]

I'm so excited

It will be fantastic to review this scene in the Remake

 

[Nickolaidas]

It will be fantastic to review this scene in the Remake

I can already read the headlines of Kotaku's 'articles' concerning homophobia.

 

[D.Final]

I can already read the headlines of Kotaku's 'articles' concerning homophobia.

The 100% safe one.

Think of the many iconic moments of Final Fantasy VII, and then let's see them become "controversies" even for no reason.
(or perhaps better to say, used as "clickbait")

I can already imagine the debates on Tifa vs Scarlett

 

[Nickolaidas]

The 100% safe one.

Think of the many iconic moments of Final Fantasy VII, and then let's see them become "controversies" even for no reason.
(or perhaps better to say, used as "clickbait")

I can already imagine the debates on Tifa vs Scarlett

"FINAL FANTASY VII CONTROVERSIAL SCENE WHICH DEPICTS TWO FEMALE CHARACTERS SLAPPING EACH OTHER"
"While I have never played Final Fantasy VII, I think this is just shameful and in bad taste …."

"FFVII IS A GAME WHERE YOU ARE ACTUALLY HAVING A PARTY MEMBER WHO IS ALSO A FAR-RIGHT WING CUTTHROAT BUSINESSMAN"
"Yup, I thought I had seen it all so far in this game. But I liked the fact that you were opposing a far-right company which polluted the land and the planet for profit … until the game shat on all that and tells me that one of the characters in my team was a fascist businessman who murders kids and the plantlife for money. All the while never bothering to ask me if I actually *wanted* that scumbag on my team. To add insult to injury, the fascist joins the party disguised as a cat, because he wants to appear as non-menacing as possible. We are supposed to love him because he appears as a cat. That's just fucked up."

"FFVII CHARACTER TIFA LOCKHEART IS A SHAMEFUL DEPICTION OF WOMEN AND SHOULD BE REMOVED"
"Square has a boner for boobs. Or Lara Croft. Or Lara Croft with boobs. The point is that Tifa Lockheart is everything wrong in this industry and the reason we need to boycott this crap the minute we see it. The only way to have devs and publishers like Square insult us is to take the battle to twitter …"

"THE ONLY CHARACTER IN FFVII WHO DIES IS A WOMAN - BECAUSE SQUARE ENIX ARE A BUNCH OF MISOGYNIST BIGOTS"
"How convenient. Of course the only character who dies is a woman. And of course she dies only in order to 'inspire' the *male* hero into taking action. Boys and their toys is all that matters in Square and FFVII, and who cares how many women are stabbed in the back along the way, right?"

"REDXIII APPARENTLY HAS A GENDER, AND YOU ARE FORCED TO REFER TO HIM AS "HE". MEDIEVAL MUCH?"
"When RedXIII appears in the game, I'd hoped that Square had the courage to go with the times and let the player choose his gender. Apparently this isn't the case because the game quickly refers to the feline creature as a 'he', in a pitiful attempt to cement the idea that animal characters should always be male. Because RedXIII being female would ruin the game, or something. This isn't the first time Square pulls this crap, as older gamers might remember a lion character in FFX who was - again - male. Like Jesus, Square. Are you so afraid of female cats?"

"APPARENTLY, SQUARE BELIEVES THAT THE ONLY THING BLACK PEOPLE ARE GOOD AT IS SHOOTING THINGS"
"FFVII party member known as 'Barret' is a racist caricature which demonizes black people as thugs and criminals - and the most insulting part? They have a machine gun glued to his arm, because apparently black people only know how to shoot people. Disgusting."

 

[wzy]

I think you have some serious anger issues and you need to look into it. People are talking about game design and you act as if someone called your mother fat or something. What worries me most is the fact that being a FFVII fan means you're possibly over thirty, and it is very concerning to see a grown man talk like this. Yeah, I get it, internet anonymity can do wonders in making you feel you can be an ass with impunity, but still, no reason to get so overly hostile over just. A video. Game.

I think you're trying to have some other argument, because this one isn't going well. Stay on topic. Nobody believes you're actually "very concerned" or whatever weird flex this is line of argument is going to turn into and I'm certain you don't give the faintest shit about "not making things personal" if you're already running to this corner after lecturing me about it. And for like the fifth time, if you're unhappy with the tenor of the argument there's nothing preventing you from just admitting you got it wrong or just simply shutting the fuck up for a while instead. Are you going to defend the posted video or not? This is very simple. Is it representative of the general experience that people had with the original Final Fantasy VII? Just say yes or no.

Oh, uh... pretty please?

Do you also think that Dark Souls would have achieved the acclaim and praise it got if you had the option to beat the game without the need to block, dodge or use spells, and could be defeated by mindlessly slashing away at foes (while never denying you the option to use the former tools)?
No, because providing you with a toolset and giving you challenges which actually *do* encourage you to use it in order to win is a much better choice than giving the tools so it could help you 'save some time'.

I guess if anyone ever took that option, this argument would make some kind of sense. But again: why would they? As far as I remember, the main objective of Dark Souls wasn't to make a point on the internet, so what motivation could the player possibly have to play the game in the most tedious and braindead way possible? It wouldn't be faster, easier, or more engaging than the ordinary systems available. And more importantly: FFVII did receive critical acclaim and praise--by the truckload, actually. So what's your point, here?

 

[Nickolaidas]

I think you're trying to have some other argument, because this one isn't going well. Stay on topic. Nobody believes you're actually "very concerned" or whatever weird flex this is line of argument is going to turn into and I'm certain you don't give the faintest shit about "not making things personal" if you're already running to this corner after lecturing me about it. And for like the fifth time, if you're unhappy with the tenor of the argument there's nothing preventing you from just admitting you got it wrong or just simply shutting the fuck up for a while instead. Are you going to defend the posted video or not? This is very simple. Is it representative of the general experience that people had with the original Final Fantasy VII? Just say yes or no.

Oh, uh... pretty please?



I guess if anyone ever took that option, this argument would make some kind of sense. But again: why would they? As far as I remember, the main objective of Dark Souls wasn't to make a point on the internet, so what motivation could the player possibly have to play the game in the most tedious and braindead way possible? It wouldn't be faster, easier, or more engaging than the ordinary systems available. And more importantly: FFVII did receive critical acclaim and praise--by the truckload, actually. So what's your point, here?

I was never talking about this posted video you're talking about. I was talking about a fellow poster who also thought the turn-based battles in FFVII were, for the most part, a complete bore. He was the one who I referred to being 'not wrong'. I have no idea what the video you're so on edge was about, and never referred to it in any way, shape or form.

Specifically, I was talking about this post:

It’s so boring and bland. I’m not a fan of turn-based battles in general (used to LOVE all those old JRPGs but I can’t stomach them anymore). But even by turn-based battle system standards, FF VII was just terrible. Zero challenge to be found. The only reason to do something besides attack is to alleviate your own boredom.

Materia system was kind of neat....but your only reward for mastering it was making the piss-easy battles even easier. And 2 Uber boss fights.

Characters were more or less clones of each other. Not much reason to choose one over another aside from limit breaks and (again) to alleviate your own boredom.

Good riddance. The only good things about the gameplay (limit breaks, materia, summons) can easily be grafted onto a vastly better battle system.

My point about Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden is that those were games who gave you a toolset (like FFVII), but unless you actually use said toolset, you cannot progress through the game (unlike FFVII). That's better game design because, through challenges, it encourages to use the tools it gives you in order to surpass the challenges and win. FFVII doesn't do that. You can reach Sephiroth simply by melee attacking anything that comes in your way.

Oh, and one piece of advice: If you want someone to shut up, try not to be a rude, ego-stroking arsehole.

 

[D.Final]

"FINAL FANTASY VII CONTROVERSIAL SCENE WHICH DEPICTS TWO FEMALE CHARACTERS SLAPPING EACH OTHER"
"While I have never played Final Fantasy VII, I think this is just shameful and in bad taste …."

"FFVII IS A GAME WHERE YOU ARE ACTUALLY HAVING A PARTY MEMBER WHO IS ALSO A FAR-RIGHT WING CUTTHROAT BUSINESSMAN"
"Yup, I thought I had seen it all so far in this game. But I liked the fact that you were opposing a far-right company which polluted the land and the planet for profit … until the game shat on all that and tells me that one of the characters in my team was a fascist businessman who murders kids and the plantlife for money. All the while never bothering to ask me if I actually *wanted* that scumbag on my team. To add insult to injury, the fascist joins the party disguised as a cat, because he wants to appear as non-menacing as possible. We are supposed to love him because he appears as a cat. That's just fucked up."

"FFVII CHARACTER TIFA LOCKHEART IS A SHAMEFUL DEPICTION OF WOMEN AND SHOULD BE REMOVED"
"Square has a boner for boobs. Or Lara Croft. Or Lara Croft with boobs. The point is that Tifa Lockheart is everything wrong in this industry and the reason we need to boycott this crap the minute we see it. The only way to have devs and publishers like Square insult us is to take the battle to twitter …"

"THE ONLY CHARACTER IN FFVII WHO DIES IS A WOMAN - BECAUSE SQUARE ENIX ARE A BUNCH OF MISOGYNIST BIGOTS"
"How convenient. Of course the only character who dies is a woman. And of course she dies only in order to 'inspire' the *male* hero into taking action. Boys and their toys is all that matters in Square and FFVII, and who cares how many women are stabbed in the back along the way, right?"

"REDXIII APPARENTLY HAS A GENDER, AND YOU ARE FORCED TO REFER TO HIM AS "HE". MEDIEVAL MUCH?"
"When RedXIII appears in the game, I'd hoped that Square had the courage to go with the times and let the player choose his gender. Apparently this isn't the case because the game quickly refers to the feline creature as a 'he', in a pitiful attempt to cement the idea that animal characters should always be male. Because RedXIII being female would ruin the game, or something. This isn't the first time Square pulls this crap, as older gamers might remember a lion character in FFX who was - again - male. Like Jesus, Square. Are you so afraid of female cats?"

"APPARENTLY, SQUARE BELIEVES THAT THE ONLY THING BLACK PEOPLE ARE GOOD AT IS SHOOTING THINGS"
"FFVII party member known as 'Barret' is a racist caricature which demonizes black people as thugs and criminals - and the most insulting part? They have a machine gun glued to his arm, because apparently black people only know how to shoot people. Disgusting."

This 100%

 

[Sub_Level]

But it's been a while since I've played VII.

I'd encourage you and anyone else looking to replay it to use the New Threat mod.

Raises the difficulty, adjusts the balance, and encourages strategy (not grinding). Adds a shit ton of quests and bosses too.

[FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)

[FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)

forums.qhimm.com

Its the most polished ff7 mod by far and has had years of patches and content additions. I mean the newest version came out TODAY to give you an idea lol

 

[Thabass]

I'd encourage you and anyone else looking to replay it to use the New Threat mod.

Raises the difficulty, adjusts the balance, and encourages strategy (not grinding). Adds a shit ton of quests and bosses too.

[FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)

[FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)

forums.qhimm.com

Its the most polished ff7 mod by far and has had years of patches and content additions. I mean the newest version came out TODAY to give you an idea lol

There's a new mod that I've been wanting to try out. It's not yet released, but Death_unites_us on Twitch / YouTube has been playing it. Adds some new characters and bosses. But I'll definitely check out NT too. I'll play it on my stream.

It's called Final Mix+. Here's his latest video of it.

 

[wzy]

I was never talking about this posted video you're talking about. I was talking about a fellow poster who also thought the turn-based battles in FFVII were, for the most part, a complete bore. He was the one who I referred to being 'not wrong'. I have no idea what the video you're so on edge was about, and never referred to it in any way, shape or form.

Specifically, I was talking about this post:

The post that quotes the video I mentioned? That's the post you're talking about? No idea? Weird. And by "weird" I mean flagrantly dishonest but that's now par for the course in this discussion, isn't it? Let me drag you back to the point: did you personally play through Final Fantasy VII without making use of magic, status effects, front and back ranks, consumable items, or materia setups? Is "attack, attack, attack, heal" etc. a reasonable characterization of the way most people played the game? And even if it is, does it make any sense at all to lay this at the feet of a turn-based system, which again, was the whole goddamn point of the argument, and very specifically the point that I was responding to--the one that prompted you to chime in with "he's right".

My point about Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden is that those were games who gave you a toolset (like FFVII), but unless you actually use said toolset, you cannot progress through the game (unlike FFVII). That's better game design because, through challenges, it encourages to use the tools it gives you in order to surpass the challenges and win. FFVII doesn't do that. You can reach Sephiroth simply by melee attacking anything that comes in your way.

No, your exact words were that Dark Souls would not have been successful if those games didn't force you to use the provided toolset. Which you sort of finagled into a very bad argument about why FFVII, one of the most critically acclaimed and financially lucrative games of all times, should have forced you into using it's provided toolset... why, though? Yes, theoretically you can clear the game in one very simple, repetitive, tedious way. Again: why would anyone do this? Please actually answer the question this time. You're positive that my answer--because they're stupid/no one actually did--is wrong. Here's your opportunity to earn than certainty. And while you're at it: why would this change in a real-time system? You act like this discussion is such a chore so when are you going to do the one thing that would actually end it and just provide explanations for these really simple, straightforward questions?

I'm playing the game again right now and it's actually surprising how wrong you are in this characterization. It's not just that encounters are more fun and satisfying when you clear them with special abilities, many of them of them are completely miserable without things like Seal > All, Frog Song, L4 Suicide, Laser, T/S Bombs, Chocobo/Mog, Odin, Destruct > Added Effect, Mystify, Chocobo/Mog > Elemental, Tranquilizers, and Poison. Unless you're constantly grinding, you're in a really shit spot trying to overpower enemies in the whole sequence from Corel Prison to Cave of Gi and Nibelheim Mansion, at the very least. Wutai is a No Magic Zone but that's also why every enemy there drops magic attacking items. Really simple stuff like back-ranking and defending came up in boss fights more times than I would have expected, too.

You're just making shit up.

Oh, and one piece of advice: If you want someone to shut up, try not to be a rude, ego-stroking arsehole.

Uh huh. Tell me, what was the objective of your previous tangent about my age, then? You've not missed an opportunity to whine about decorum since this argument began. Are you dropping this whole line or what? No apology forthcoming, I take it? Hmm.

 

[shark sandwich]

Get over it. The old FF VII battle system is not what they wanted for this game. The whiners are a vocal minority and they’ll probably buy it anyway.

All the whining in the world is not gonna make them go back and turn it into a turn-based nostalgia wank.