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Fighting Games Weekly | Dec 8-14 | Sony pleads the FiF

I'm having a hard time parsing what this even means.

u trollin'? you can tell me

edit: i suck at phone

Nah was having a debate in the TTT2 OT on how certain characters (Bob/Lars) shouldn't be top tier because they have low execution and that high tier characters should have high execution.

Of course I was like "Word?" but I wanted to see what others thought.
 
Reposting for the new page:
Alright GAF, I asked if people were interested in this before, and I saw ~10 people say they were in the Smash thread. To me, that's enough for us to try and see if this works. I have never done something like this before, so bear with me as I try to figure out proper organization, and know that I welcome suggestions. I am posting this here as well, because I know not all FGC Weekly folks visit SmashGAF, but some of you still play the game.

EXPECTATIONS:
-You will play a FT5 once per week with someone on the ranbat list, minimum.
-You will be respectful toward others, and understand that this is intended for fun.
-1v1.
-No items/customs.
-2 stock with an 8-minute timer.
-No stages with hazards.
-Good sportsmanship.

Fair warning: the Google Form asks for your e-mail. The only reason I am asking for this information is to give you a Google Spreadsheet invite for recording match data. I am a public school teacher with access to thousands of addresses, phone numbers, and e-mails, and I previously managed a 70,000 person legislative district with all the personal information I could ever want at the tip of my fingers, including SSNs. If you are too paranoid to trust me, I understand and respect that, but this is the only option that ensures only tournament players can edit results without placing heavy record-keeping burdens on me.

Let me know if you think I forgot anything, or if I screwed up the Google Form.

Without further ado, quote this post to reveal the Google Form link below:
 
Just because a character requires high execution doesn't mean that they should be high tier.

Once again, no one should be designed with tier position in mind. At least, that's my opinion.
 

Mr. X

Member
Make sure everyone functions as intended and let the chips fall as they may. Certain characters will be good at low levels no matter what and then it's up in the air how effective they'll be against people who know what they're doing.

I can't see a developer going "I want this character to be this good/bad because I made them to be easy/hard to use" working out well or being a good thing for a game. The character should be balanced by what they were designed to do and their tools.

Not to mention, making a character amazing cause they are hard to play doesn't work because someone always ends up being able to execute.
 

AAK

Member
Lars and Bob just ruin the game. They should NOT have such rewarding buttons with a "one-size-fits-all" solution to so many things and have no consequence for executing those buttons.

If that means low execution shouldn't be top tier.... then that's my stance.
 
Lars and Bob just ruin the game. They should NOT have such rewarding buttons with a "one-size-fits-all" solution to so many things and have no consequence for executing those buttons.

If that means low execution shouldn't be top tier.... then that's my stance.

The main reason many don't see them as that good because they all play the same. Once you know how Bob or Lars are played then boom that's it. If you are smarter than your opponent then you're good.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";143350054]Like Dr.Doom[/QUOTE]

I think Doom is the only character in the game that fits that criteria... Maybe Spencer too but his combos are a lot simpler than Doom's max damage corner bnb's. Man, I miss me some mahvel.
 

vulva

Member
I went back and looked at the Capcom Pro Tour Ranking events whic award 128 compared to 256 for Premiere events and I'm surprised that neither that Toronto or Montreal tournament were included. Did the TO's up there not apply for it or did they actually get turned down. It seemed like Capcom was accepting everything as a ranking event, Mexico and even the Caribbeans got multiple events. I'm surprised Canada didn't have one.
No idea why we didn't get one but with the heightened interest in the prize pot, this could encourage more travellers to these smaller events. I use Toronto as an example but really it'd be great if places like Moscow or Kiev had unknown scenes that got more attention too.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Unless in some extreme cases... developers don't actually design characters with tiers in mind (like if Ono is making a SFV he is not purposely trying to make Ryu Mid tier). However when they get to patching you bet your candy ass they balance based around execution and level of play that impacts casual and high level. I have seen this down across various genres as well.
 

Kimosabae

Banned
If your base system is robust enough, the speed is right, and there's good moment options, that helps with tiers tremendously. Referencing games like Melee/Guilty Gear; outside Bridgette runaway tactics in the latter, I've never gotten the sense that a matchup was unwinnable.

I don't see a fighting game ever having a tutorial as thorough and robust as VF4EVOs. It won't, no pub with that much money to use will put it towards tutorials due to no ROI.

Good. It's a waste of time and money. I've seriously watched people get discouraged when exposed to that tutorial. They don't do anything outside the opposite of what most expect, I'm sure of it.
 
I think Doom is the only character in the game that fits that criteria... Maybe Spencer too but his combos are a lot simpler than Doom's max damage corner bnb's. Man, I miss me some mahvel.
Dormammu and Firebrand qualify, I'd say.

I think Capcom games in general excel at this: ease of playability + difficulty of mastery.
 

petghost

Banned
That feeling when you know no matter how much money Capcom will put into SFV, the tutorial will be worse than KI or Skullgirls. I'm expecting it to be super barebones like KoF13's.

I don't see a fighting game ever having a tutorial as thorough and robust as VF4EVOs. It won't, no pub with that much money to use will put it towards tutorials due to no ROI.

you seen xrds mission mode? its really cool and asks to you deal with certain situations that come up in the game like hit confirming, AA'ing with 6p, blocking millia mixup nonsense, safe jumps etc. also gives you character specific strategies to deal with the cast.

one of the best teaching tools i seen in a fg.
 

Zissou

Member
Nah was having a debate in the TTT2 OT on how certain characters (Bob/Lars) shouldn't be top tier because they have low execution and that high tier characters should have high execution.

Of course I was like "Word?" but I wanted to see what others thought.

I guess my stance most closely aligns with Dahbomb's- give a reward for playing a higher execution character, but make it so small that there is no clear answer to which character is better once human error is taken into account.

I think Doom is the only character in the game that fits that criteria... Maybe Spencer too but his combos are a lot simpler than Doom's max damage corner bnb's. Man, I miss me some mahvel.

You think Spencer combos are easier? Spencer combos seems tough because what you do varies so much based on screen position etc., and that aside, some of the stuff is jusr plain tough. Doom's practical optimized combos aren't too bad really.
 

phaonaut

Member
Agreed, I think 16 is the perfect amount.

Everyone wants 3/5 and we aren't getting that with 32 people.

If Capcom/Sony is spending 500k on prize money, how much will the winner of CC2015 get? 80k, 100K or more?

With so much money on the line there is no reason not to make this a two day event. 3/5 first day and long sets with the top 4 or 8 on finals day. Maybe thats too much to ask for, but the money being offered is staggering. No reason to take half measures on the actual competition.

Probably won't happen, but just my opinion.
 

AAK

Member
The main reason many don't see them as that good because they all play the same. Once you know how Bob or Lars are played then boom that's it. If you are smarter than your opponent then you're good.

Not that good? I think it's universally accepted that Lars, Jinpachi, and Bob are best tournament characters in the game by a wide margin.
 

Sayah

Member
Alright GAF, I asked if people were interested in this before, and I saw ~10 people say they were in the Smash thread. To me, that's enough for us to try and see if this works. I have never done something like this before, so bear with me as I try to figure out proper organization, and know that I welcome suggestions. I am posting this here as well, because I know not all FGC Weekly folks visit SmashGAF, but some of you still play the game.

EXPECTATIONS:
-You will play a FT5 once per week with someone on the ranbat list, minimum.
-You will be respectful toward others, and understand that this is intended for fun.
-1v1.
-No items/customs.
-2 stock with an 8-minute timer.
-No stages with hazards.
-Good sportsmanship.

Fair warning: the Google Form asks for your e-mail. The only reason I am asking for this information is to give you a Google Spreadsheet invite for recording match data. I am a public school teacher with access to thousands of addresses, phone numbers, and e-mails, and I previously managed a 70,000 person legislative district with all the personal information I could ever want at the tip of my fingers, including SSNs. If you are too paranoid to trust me, I understand and respect that, but this is the only option that ensures only tournament players can edit results without placing heavy record-keeping burdens on me.

Let me know if you think I forgot anything, or if I screwed up the Google Form.

Without further ado, quote this post to reveal the Google Form link below:

I am officially finished with my semester after Wednesday this week. Contemplating on whether or not I should do this.

Post this on the first page of the new FGW thread so I'll have access to it when I make up my mind.
 
I am officially finished with my semester after Wednesday this week. Contemplating on whether or not I should do this.

Post this on the first page of the new FGW thread so I'll have access to it when I make up my mind.
Will do.

I'm hoping to get at least 8 people (I have 5 right now) to start us off, and the "Season" would run over a 2-month period. Round Robin format, all you need to do is play one match a week, and you can play whoever within the bracket to qualify for ease of access (one person per season, obviously).

If I can get 16 people, then we'll have 2 brackets of 8, each fully enclosed. If it's between 8 and 16, I'll try and break us up into 2 groups.

As a working man also in school, I want to try and create a busy-person-friendly environment.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Dormammu and Firebrand qualify, I'd say.

I think Capcom games in general excel at this: ease of playability + difficulty of mastery.

You are right about Dormammu although I've never seen highly optimized Firebrand combos before, I've just seen Apologyman play him. Also that second statement is spot on and something that shines about Capcom fighting games, except for SFxT.

You think Spencer combos are easier? Spencer combos seems tough because what you do varies so much based on screen position etc., and that aside, some of the stuff is jusr plain tough. Doom's practical optimized combos aren't too bad really.

Super easy, unless you're going for the overhead side change combos that Nemo did a lot back when he got popular in Ultimate. I can get the timing down but its too much effort. Doom combos are easy for me too but I don't main him so my butter gun combos suffer.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Execution isn't all about combos it's about movement and neutral game. Moving around with FB and doing his wall cling fireball sequences among a few other nuances of the characters are some of the high execution tools he has despite having Wolverine tier combo execution requirement.
 
Not that good? I think it's universally accepted that Lars and Bob are best tournament characters in the game by a wide margin.

I haven't seen either character do particularly well with few exceptions. Japan seems to love Bob but everywhere else...no one really plays either character.

I'm more focused in results and while they are very good characters I'm not seeing where they are just these monstrosities to worry about.
 

Negaduck

Member
I like it when games and characters are just made and the interesting interactions and tiers happen through player discovery.

One example for me is how marvel 3 has specific things that 'otg'. Where as marvel 2 and other games don't have those triggers and its just any attack that hits the active hurt box.

Aside from the fact that marvel 2 shouldn't work or even be balanced by any means, I like how the game just allows things to happen due to character interaction and not because the developers decided a certain move can otg or whatever other game restrictions.

Also at the highest level execution doesn't really become as big of a factor. If a character is amazing but requires execution people will learn.

Iirc (my VF knowledge is pretty limited) akira requires some crazy 1 frame links and has some high execution but played well is pretty damn good.

Another example is magneto's ROM. Iirc when it was discovered (roll canceling in cvs2 also) it was thought that it would be too hard to do to be a problem or common place.

Now those are pretty common for anyone playing those games seriously.
 

AAK

Member
I haven't seen either character do particularly well with few exceptions. Japan seems to love Bob but everywhere else...no one really plays either character.

I'm more focused in results and while they are very good characters I'm not seeing where they are just these monstrosities to worry about.

Bringing Japan up is a perfect example. As you say it's best to look at tournaments and if you look at all the Mastercups that that 880 man turnouts do you remember how many Bob and Lars players we saw there?

Here is a list of the side J1 Climax tournament that took place:

http://mastercupofficial.com/teamlist/j1climax

A sea of Bob, Lars, and Jinpachi's.
 

Mr. X

Member
Good. It's a waste of time and money. I've seriously watched people get discouraged when exposed to that tutorial. They don't do anything outside the opposite of what most expect, I'm sure of it.

I pretty much learnt FGs from the ground up from that tutorial, not just VF.
Maybe I'm odd though, I was excited knowing I had all that in front of me.
 
I can't believe it is 2014 and we still got dudes derailing threads because "Smash is not a fighting game".

it's funny because now it's shifted to certain groups of Nintendo fans trying to deny the legitimacy of the competitive scene :lol

If Capcom/Sony is spending 500k on prize money, how much will the winner of CC2015 get? 80k, 100K or more?

With so much money on the line there is no reason not to make this a two day event. 3/5 first day and long sets with the top 4 or 8 on finals day. Maybe thats too much to ask for, but the money being offered is staggering. No reason to take half measures on the actual competition.

Probably won't happen, but just my opinion.

ha you think that will happen?

they'll just stuff more ads despite the Sony sponsorship :p
 

Mr. X

Member
Iirc (my VF knowledge is pretty limited) akira requires some crazy 1 frame links and has some high execution but played well is pretty damn good.
Rarely does any Akira use that 1f knee thing, it's just there in the movelist basically. VF has a huge ass buffer window so nothing is tight in combos since it'll come out on the first possible frame.

VF is head games, remembering weights, knowing some frame data.
 

Zissou

Member
Execution isn't all about combos it's about movement and neutral game. Moving around with FB and doing his wall cling fireball sequences among a few other nuances of the characters are some of the high execution tools he has despite having Wolverine tier combo execution requirement.

Marvel combo discussion was just a side conversation, haha. Though related to tiers/execution- marvel does a good job of rewarding execution, but having diminishing returns for said execution. Low and high execution characters both are seen all the time in top 8s.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Was mostly talking to Yams on that. If people say a character is execution is heavy in Marvel they generally aren't talking about the combos. Most characters have doable combos even by low execution standard (hell Viscant can do most of them). Execution is in stuff like plink Mag Blasts, Bold canceling, Soul Fly cancels, Wall cling fireball, Rapid Seismo + FADC, various plink movement... even Buster charge transferring is an execution requirement.
 
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