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Fighting Games Weekly | May 18-24 | Forget it Jake, it's Capcom Town

kasane

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Mar 21, 2013
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caught up on vods after only catching grand finals on stun fest

daigo dont care anymore. He will pick anything if it means hes winning. I fucking love it
 

SolarPowered

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Feb 17, 2009
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People gotta stop conflating 'best' with 'perfect.' Loving any fighting game is more about loving it despite its flaws rather than an absence of them. The good being so good that it makes you look past the bad is most important.
I somewhat agree with you. Fighting games have so many ways to tackle the same problems that it can become daunting and they can reach a pinnacle without ever needing something that other games just take for granted. Some of the most balanced games in the genre have entirely different ways of reaching that goal. Take SG and Vampire Savior. The former has only weight and height differences if we're talking about what happens to an opponent when they're being hit. Damage output is exactly the same across the board, but the percentage of tourney viable characters is practically 100 percent. In regards to the latter Morrigan and Lilith sit nearly at the bottom with Lei Lei/Talbain in health and they can easily be eaten alive by Sasquatch faster than an adolescent ties their shoes, but in Japan it isn't uncommon at all to see Morrigan or Lilith at grand finals. The games have small flaws here and there, but the base package is so damn solid almost all characters can withstand the scrutiny of players years later and hundreds of thousands of matches into the future.

"Love" is something people really use at first in their judgement of fighters and down the road it may stick with a few, but years afterwards when you are only left with the analysis of the product I feel like these "perfect" games don't really need the love to keep being played. They just stand on their own if people have the means (GGPO, PC ports, old consoles, etc) to continue fighting.
 

NEO0MJ

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Aug 8, 2010
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Why, nice in depth discussion going on, all thank to troll posts.

So with bison getting older and having a slightly updated costume, why didn't they do that with ryu and chun? Ryu could have a beard and updated GI or something.

I bet they'll goo with his clone body is deteriorating as an excuse for why he looks older than the others.

Change the C in Comcast to a K for something MK related.

Hear hear!
 

Mizerman

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Jan 27, 2015
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So with bison getting older and having a slightly updated costume, why didn't they do that with ryu and chun? Ryu could have a beard and updated GI or something.

Kinda feels like a missed opportunity. Could have an update like terry in MOTW.

Seeing as Bison is a body swapper, they can just easily handwave that as "Bison's Psycho Power is acting up again, so he transfers his soul into another body yet again."

It's highly convenient, just like Dr. Doom and his Doombots.
 

Karsticles

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Oct 25, 2010
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Karsticles I think your perspective is interesting and the idea that you think you can formulate depth is...brilliant actually

that said I think you over emphasize the value of control in some ways and not enough in others. The freedom of mobility you think Smash has is not so distant from other titles within the scope of their game...and even with DI the "control" you have is only to a degree...

the "loss of control" that you don't like stems from the fact that you made the wrong decision before...

I want you to consider why brawl wasn't as successful as a competitive title. Tripping aside, it should be the pinnacle of your "depth"
Hmm. Are you referring to Brawl's complete lack of hitstun? Some have told me that it turned into a gambit/mindgame followup that was enjoyable, but I don't know enough about the game to say myself. I know I quit because of the netcode. :p

Not every game works with every mechanic, and I completely agree that hitstun is necessary in most fighters. No question there.

yeah, I'm sure Riot really thinks you're right, they'll be removing respawn times in LoL any day now
Never played the game. Shitty DotA ripoff from the day it was announced and Pendragon shut down the DotA-allstars website. One of the few games I legimiately have hatred for.

You are being stubborn and missing what I am trying to say. So I will put it into bullet points so you can focus on the problem:

*Having "control" in a game is not the single most important factor in what makes people stick with a game or stop playing it NOR is it the single most important factor in what makes a game fun or not. There are many examples of games that take away control but millions of people still play. Likewise there are games which give you FULL CONTROL over the entire game but are not past indie status. I have given you examples of these and other people have as well.
I never said it was the most important. I just said I think it is a part.

*What makes something fun or not fun is not the point and should not be the sole criteria of good design. There are many elements in game that are not "fun" but they make for games that have more depth and are generally more long lasting. You are focusing too much on "no control = no fun".
Fun is the most important part of any video game.

*Yes... people will quit a game because they felt they were not in control of a match but there are excuses to quit every single game on the planet. People will quit because of RNG, they will quit because of barrier of entry, they will quit because of high skill difference, they will quit because of cheese tactics etc. But there are also people who will quit a game because it lacks that high skill cap, which lacks good design, good balance etc. Every single fighting game in the planet has something that will make someone in the world quit because they didn't find that one thing "fun".
Why is Melee still alive and growing?
So when you zero in on someone quitting UMVC3 because they felt they didn't have control... I can give you an example of myself quitting Divekick because the game lacked any real variance in game play or lacked a high skill ceiling despite giving me FULL CONTROL of my character during the entire match.
It isn't a deep game, I agree. "Full control during the entire match" is kind of misleading when any hit kills you, lol.

Play what you like Karsticles all anyone can do there is question your tastes. No one can change that but you.


The second you start with that "smash is deeper than anything else" nonsense however is where ppl that knoe whats up are going to take issue. Didn't hungry box say some nonsense like "melee is the best game ever It is perfect"..? Can you read this and see how ridiculous it is?

It's an opinion but its a bad one (lol) and just ignorant. That's not disrespect to the game but to theplayer fyi
No clue about Hungrybox. I do think Smash is deeper than most other fighters, though. Folks are welcome to be upset about that opinion, but that is on them. I don't think Smash is perfect, though. I just think it has mechanics that create extraordinary depth, and I am happy because the only other games with comparable depth, in my opinion, are Skullgirls and UMvC3.

I've said something to the effect of "Smash is as about perfect as a game made by humans can be". Those few games that reach that nirvana are something special. Them being that good doesn't mean other games aren't fucking awesome, though. About the only lesson Mahvel can learn from Smash is camera zoom. Superjumps in the versus games seem kind of stupid with the way cameras work in those games. Mike didn't really choose to tackle that, so they just sidestepped it in SG. Luckily for us other games in the past can do anime and versus style without taking to the sky so much (GG and VSav).

That first touch deciding everything (to a greater degree in mvc3 thanks to x-factor) was serious business.
Smash 4 zooms too much sometimes. I lose sight of the ledge. :p

Ironically, ever since Brawl, they cut the depth on this hard. It was handled great in Melee and 64.
Explain?
 

vocab

Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Q plays like every fighting game ever. He's like the exact opposite of someone who only plays games their good at.
 

Rhapsody

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Oct 9, 2012
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In past Smash games, you would preserve momentum from running to your jumps. Now, running and jumping forward is no different compared to standing still and then jumping forward. Distance remains the same. Besides the obvious KoF, even ASW games have this, affecting double jumps too. Melee also has directional air dodge which is essentially a third jump. There was a lot of depth into chasing airborne opponents in Melee while now it's a yes/no should I delay to punish a possible air dodge.

Brawl also removed double jump cancels. Think of those as Rachel's wind on pressure/combos.
 

Pappasman

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Dec 11, 2009
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In past Smash games, you would preserve momentum from running to your jumps. Now, running and jumping forward is no different compared to standing still and then jumping forward. Distance remains the same. Melee also has directional air dodge which is essentially a third jump. There was a lot of depth into chasing airborne opponents in Melee while now it's a yes/no should I delay to punish a possible air dodge.

Brawl also removed double jump cancels. Think of those as Rachel's wind on pressure/combos.
Personally the removal of jump momentum in smash games after Melee makes them really hard to have fun with. That and losing directional air dodge is a lot of the reason why the Brawl and 4 feel so stiff and sluggish to me.
 

NEO0MJ

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Aug 8, 2010
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But I like Marvel sorta and really like Smash. The only current fighting game out that I don't like is Persona

Which is pretty strange. It seems pretty loved here, not just by Persona fans.

Personally the removal of jump momentum in smash games after Melee makes them really hard to have fun with. That and losing directional air dodge is a lot of the reason why the Brawl and 4 feel so stiff and sluggish to me.

While I'm so-so on the air dodge change, I do agree that they should have kept momentum. Maybe they felt it gave the faster characters too much of an edge?
 

Rhapsody

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Oct 9, 2012
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Personally the removal of jump momentum in smash games after Melee makes them really hard to have fun with. That and losing directional air dodge is a lot of the reason why the Brawl and 4 feel so stiff and sluggish to me.

It's amusing to see how far Fox can jump forward in this game. He barely goes anywhere lol

But yeah, I really enjoyed jump momentum. Being able to nair past shields with Pika and stuff added a lot to it.
And then there's the obvious chases you can do.
 

Karsticles

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Oct 25, 2010
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But I like Marvel sorta and really like Smash. The only current fighting game out that I don't like is Persona
Pfft.

Q plays like every fighting game ever. He's like the exact opposite of someone who only plays games their good at.
Define "plays". Q hasnt turned his Wii U on in over a month.

In past Smash games, you would preserve momentum from running to your jumps. Now, running and jumping forward is no different compared to standing still and then jumping forward. Distance remains the same. Besides the obvious KoF, even ASW games have this, affecting double jumps too. Melee also has directional air dodge which is essentially a third jump. There was a lot of depth into chasing airborne opponents in Melee while now it's a yes/no should I delay to punish a possible air dodge.

Brawl also removed double jump cancels. Think of those as Rachel's wind on pressure/combos.
Ah, I know what you mean. I wish they would add that back in. Feels wrong, and doesn't seem to benefit anyone.

Smash 4 has DJCs on some characters. Mewtwo uses them sometimes.
 

NEO0MJ

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Aug 8, 2010
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