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First Fight Night PS3 Screens

Nostromo said:
Don't need to invite me, I'm nAo and I don't agree with your post,in fact for what is worth you got nao32 completely wrong, lol :lol

That's it, NAO32. :lol Sorry I got that wrong, but I did say "something like. :D

But seriously, beside getting the name wrong, rest should be OK. You went ahead with NAO32 because FP64 (16bits per channel) was not a good performance option, right?

Now keep in mind, I'm not saying that Xenos' FP32 (10/10/10/2) is necessarily better than your solution. I'm just saying that it's better than a generic Integer HDR.
 

Nostromo

Member
Shogmaster said:
But seriously, beside getting the name wrong, rest should be OK. You went ahead with NAO32 because FP64 (16bits per channel) was not a good performance option, right?
You must be kidding, you got it completely wrong, it's not an integer format, it does NOT fake FP16, hell, quality wise it's even better than FP16. Anyway, I've already explained this many time here and B3D too, If you are genuinely interested in it (but I don't think so) you can read this:http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=3&m_articles_articleid=599
 
Shogmaster said:
HS does a proprietary code Integer HDR (NAO16 I think it's called) and not FP16. It's basically faking (pretty damn well) FP HDR. Nothing is "built in" per se. The bandwidth to RSX I don't think allows for an acceptable performance while doing FP16 (which obviously they could force it to do).

It's not FP16 for all channels, but still much better than integer HDR.

You have a couple things wrong. First its NAO32 (not 16). Second, there are actually more bits of precision allocated to the HDR component in NAO32 than in FP16 (let alone Xenos' FP10). As far as quality is concerned there's nothing "fake" about it at all. It simply sacrificies a slight hit in shaders for color space conversion to gain in bandwith.

edit- oop, i see the patent holder showed up. nm ;)
 

jett

D-Member
Nostromo said:
Don't need to invite me, I'm nAo and I don't agree with your post,in fact for what is worth you got nao32 completely wrong, lol :lol

:lol FUDmaster pwned.
 

Klocker

Member
Nostromo said:
You must be kidding, you got it completely wrong, it's not an integer format, it does NOT fake FP16, hell, quality wise it's even better than FP16. Anyway, I've already explained this many time here and B3D too, If you are genuinely interested in it (but I don't think so) you can read this:http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=3&m_articles_articleid=599

thanks interesting

There's no magic here: HDR rendering costs are shifted from memory to shaders, and so our shaders are a bit longer now (between 3 and 5 cycles). We believe it's a very good trade-off. Furthermore, it enables HDR rendering and multisample anti-aliasing on GPUs that do not natively support AA with floating point render targets such as FP16 and FP32.
 
Nostromo said:
You must be kidding, you got it completely wrong, it's not an integer format, it does NOT fake FP16, hell, quality wise it's even better than FP16. Anyway, I've already explained this many time here and B3D too, If you are genuinely interested in it (but I don't think so) you can read this:http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=3&m_articles_articleid=599

I didn't mean FP16, but FP64 (16/16/16/16). I just ended up typing FP16 because of what I was quoting form Onix, sorry.

I'm sure you're not saying that NAO32 looks even better than true FP64, right? I mean it looked damn good, but I could see difference from demos using PF64 (like say '05 FN3 demo, or the '05 UT2007 demo).

And I guess calling it an integer format isn't right. It's combination of FP and integer? I read articles about it but it was long ago.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
:lol (to Super Owned)


Shog,

My post was in response to someone saying the lighting sucked in FN3 for the 360.

I was simply postulating that they were using the 'free' HDR of Xenos (FP10 - as has been now clarified) ... and stating that that isn't necessarily of the best quality.


I'm wondering if they are using something better in the PS3 version, even if it is more 'expensive'.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Shogmaster said:
I didn't mean FP16, but FP64 (16/16/16/16)

16 bits per component = FP16. 'FP64' would be 64/64/64/64, I don't think such a format exists on any hardware today (?)
 
I don't mind people calling this launch software, because it is. However, it's been made on hardware that was close to final hardware for at least 2 years. Most launch games aren't afforded that luxury. So, this pre-launch to 2nd gen 360 games talk is stupid.

How on earth did you figure this one? Yeesh, this thread has all sorts of gems.
 

Klocker

Member
Nostromo said:
You must be kidding, you got it completely wrong, it's not an integer format, it does NOT fake FP16, hell, quality wise it's even better than FP16. Anyway, I've already explained this many time here and B3D too, If you are genuinely interested in it (but I don't think so) you can read this:http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=3&m_articles_articleid=599


by the way Nostromo, is this a technique (giving PS3 the ability to do AA and HDR together) that is being circulated by Sony to other devs as a 'tool' for other PS3 games or are you the only ones using it right now AFAYK?
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
hukasmokincaterpillar said:
How on earth did you figure this one? Yeesh, this thread has all sorts of gems.

Yeah, I commented on that one too! :lol

Gem doesn't begin to describe it.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Klocker said:
by the way Nostromo, is this a technique (giving PS3 the ability to do AA and HDR together) that is being circulated by Sony to other devs as a 'tool' for other PS3 games or are you the only ones using it right now AFAYK?

I really would love to know this as well.


I'm hoping Sony licenses this (if copyrighted and available) as part of standard middleware.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Shogmaster said:
I didn't mean FP16, but FP64 (16/16/16/16). I just ended up typing FP16 because of what I was quoting form Onix, sorry.

I'm sure you're not saying that NAO32 looks even better than true FP64, right? I mean it looked damn good, but I could see difference from demos using PF64 (like say '05 FN3 demo, or the '05 UT2007 demo).

And I guess calling it an integer format isn't right. It's combination of FP and integer? I read articles about it but it was long ago.


I guess so...but I really didnt mean....what I was trying say was....you see the thing is.....oh shit I GIVE UP:lol


thats what you should have said

gofreak said:
16 bits per component = FP16. 'FP64' would be 64/64/64/64, I don't think such a format exists on any hardware today (?)

See?:lol :lol :lol
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Klocker said:
by the way Nostromo, is this a technique (giving PS3 the ability to do AA and HDR together) that is being circulated by Sony to other devs as a 'tool' for other PS3 games or are you the only ones using it right now AFAYK?

I doubt he can comment on that......
 
gofreak said:
16 bits per component = FP16. 'FP64' would be 64/64/64/64, I don't think such a format exists on any hardware today (?)

Then we are talking about the same thing with me getting confused about the right term. Then I don't get how NAO32 is better looking and performing then FP16 (or were they FP32?). FP16 stuff that I've seen is more "crisp" in it's looks then what we've seen on HS.

HS's HDR has a bit of a 'soft' look compared to those two demos I'm talking about (but I think it's just as good or better than FP10 stuff on X360). Unless I'm suppose to enjoy that softer look, I just don't get how NAO32 in FS is better than FP16. *shrugs*

I know NAO is proud of his creation (and should be), but forgive me for thinking that maybe that part of his statement is just a smidgen of a hyperbole?



Kleegamefan said:
I guess so...but I really didnt mean....what I was trying say was....you see the thing is.....oh shit I GIVE UP:lol


thats what you should have said



See?:lol :lol :lol

Yeah, you're probably right on this one. :lol
 

J-Rzez

Member
Nostromo,

Thank you for taking an active part in these forums... seriously, it's appreciated... it certainly helps establish that you guys "care" for gamers... I'm sure it wins you tons of respect (if you want it or not :lol )...

I wish more devs would post in such... the trolls are an active-over population in forums... especially if someone is saying so and so would agree, or they'd say so too!

Please release a collectors edition of HS btw... and, i'm buying 2 copies now... :lol
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Shogmaster said:
Then we are talking about the same thing with me getting confused about the right term. Then I don't get how NAO32 is better looking and performing then FP16 (or were they FP32?).

You're trying to use straight math conventions for things that are represented in two totally different formats (colorspaces in this case). This would be the same as comparing bit-rates of MPEG2 versus MPEG4 ... and assuming a given MPEG2 video will look better due to its higher bitrate.



FP16 stuff that I've seen is more "crisp" in it's looks then what we've seen on HS.

HS's HDR has a bit of a 'soft' look compared to those two demos I'm talking about (but I think it's just as good or better than FP10 stuff on X360). Unless I'm suppose to enjoy that softer look, I just don't get how NAO32 in FS is better than FP16. *shrugs*

I know NAO is proud of his creation (and should be), but forgive me for thinking that maybe that part of his statement is just a smidgen of a hyperbole?

I'll let NAO answer that, as I have no idea ... but I'm under the impression that the 'soft look' (I would call it ethereal - ala ICO and SotC) is an art decision.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Shogmaster said:
Then we are talking about the same thing with me getting confused about the right term. Then I don't get how NAO32 is better looking and performing then FP16 (or were they FP32?). FP16 stuff that I've seen is more "crisp" in it's looks then what we've seen on HS.

HS's HDR has a bit of a 'soft' look compared to those two demos I'm talking about (but I think it's just as good or better than FP10 stuff on X360). Unless I'm suppose to enjoy that softer look, I just don't get how NAO32 in FS is better than FP16. *shrugs*

I know NAO is proud of his creation (and should be), but forgive me for thinking that maybe that part of his statement is just a smidgen of a hyperbole?

nAo could go into the specifics, his links might even, but IIRC, the claim is based on the fact that the approach leverages a colour space far more suited to high dynamic range than the RGB space that other implementations use, including FP16 etc. Technically I believe it's supposed to result in better range and fewer artifacts in certain cases where they might appear with FP16.

I can't be entirely sure what you're referring to with the 'softness' you see with HS's lighting, but it may have nothing to do with the HDR. The game employs atmospheric scattering also, which can help bathe a scene in hazy 'soft' light. It's quite deliberate, and I think it looks rather fantastic.

e.g. if you're talking about the soft haziness in scenes like this:

644_0016.jpg


..then that's definitely the atmospheric scattering, I think. It's meant to be like that, it wouldn't look as good without it IMO.
 
OK, just for my satisfaction, could NAO or someone else tell me what HDR formats the '05 E3 UT2007 and the FN3 demo were using? It's pretty obvious now that I'm confused what that exactly was.

Do you think they were using FP16 or maybe even FP32? Whatever they were, it was eye searing gorgeous. I know what FP10 (10/10/10/2) looks like thanks to X360 games. I know what NAO32 looks like (however it breaks down) thanks to FS. What were those two demos doing?



gofreak said:
644_0016.jpg


..then that's definitely the atmospheric scattering, I think. It's meant to be like that, it wouldn't look as good without it IMO.

Actually, I'm referring to how the lighter portion of the screen transitions into the darker parts. Like brightly shone surface and shadows right next to it. Or maybe that lightest light to darkest dark isn't as contrasty as the two demos from '05 E3.
 

alterego

Junior Member
Shogmaster said:
Then we are talking about the same thing with me getting confused about the right term. Then I don't get how NAO32 is better looking and performing then FP16 (or were they FP32?). FP16 stuff that I've seen is more "crisp" in it's looks then what we've seen on HS.

HS's HDR has a bit of a 'soft' look compared to those two demos I'm talking about (but I think it's just as good or better than FP10 stuff on X360). Unless I'm suppose to enjoy that softer look, I just don't get how NAO32 in FS is better than FP16. *shrugs*

I know NAO is proud of his creation (and should be), but forgive me for thinking that maybe that part of his statement is just a smidgen of a hyperbole?





Yeah, you're probably right on this one. :lol

Seriously enough with this shit. It's justs embarassing now.
Your last few posts have been transparent and disingenious.

Heavenly Sword has probably the best lighting of any game I've see so far.

This is no sleight on the XBOX 360 as I'm sure FP10 performs adequately for most situations (and devs may even be able to get around the FP16 limitations).
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Shogmaster said:
Yeah, you're probably right on this one. :lol


No problem man....god knows I have put my foot in my mouth before :D


P.S. Is this the thread of September sofar?....or do we need some more YOUNOTRESISTMANCLOUD artwork to put it over the top? :D
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Shogmaster said:
Actually, I'm referring to how the lighter portion of the screen transitions into the darker parts. Like brightly shone surface and shadows right next to it. Or maybe that lightest light to darkest dark isn't as contrasty as the two demos from '05 E3.

I'm not quite sure, but if you're referring to shadow edges/boundaries, it's quite desireable for them to be 'soft'.

As for the latter, I'd defer to nAo if this is an incorrect assumption, but that particular scene is pretty open, it's not going to have a very dark area and a very bright area, simply because the ambient light is there. That's not a reflection on the range the HDR implementation can handle, I just doubt the scene just is very challenging in that regard.

Anyway, FIGHT NIGHT. Ding ding!
 
alterego said:
Seriously enough with this shit. It's justs embarassing now.
Your last few posts have been transparent and disingenious.

Embarrassing yes, but I promise it's not disengenious.

Heavenly Sword has probably the best lighting of any game I've see so far.

It has one of the best lighting of all the real playable games so far, but I honestly think that those two demos form 05 E3 had better HDR. I saw all of them in person. There was a super crispness to the lighting that is missing in HS and the X360 stuff.

This is no sleight on the XBOX 360 as I'm sure FP10 performs adequately for most situations (and devs may even be able to get around the FP16 limitations).

I'm realistic. I appreciate the HDR I've seen in X360 titles so far but they don't approach whatever those two PS3 demos were doing back in 2005 E3. Maybe some of the PC titles running on rediculous SLI set ups will be doing it in games soon, but I don't think we'll see anything like that in the consoles for a while because of their bandwidth limitations.
 

teiresias

Member
Wow, Shog massively owned. After the detailed dialog at B3D concerning the HS HDR algorithm you'd think there'd be no one left on the internet - not even Deadmeat - who'd attempt the "faked HDR" argument anymore. :lol :lol :lol
 
No one will care to even guess as what HDR formats UT2007 and FN3 demos at '05 E3 was doing? Now I'm dying to know. :lol



teiresias said:
Wow, Shog massively owned. After the detailed dialog at B3D concerning the HS HDR algorithm you'd think there'd be no one left on the internet - not even Deadmeat - who'd attempt the "faked HDR" argument anymore. :lol :lol :lol

Hey now, I never said HS was doing "fake" HDR. I said it was doing fake FP HDR. Wrong still, but give me some credit about not knocking HS intentionally. I did always maintain that it was the best looking PS3 title at E3.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Shogmaster said:
I'm realistic. I appreciate the HDR I've seen in X360 titles so far but they don't approach whatever those two PS3 demos were doing back in 2005 E3. Maybe some of the PC titles running on rediculous SLI set ups will be doing it in games soon, but I don't think we'll see anything like that in the consoles for a while because of their bandwidth limitations.


owliseewhatyoudidthere.jpg
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Shogmaster said:
WHAT DID I DO? :lol Seriously, It's not a knock against either console. No insidious intentions.


Sorry man.....I just had to stab you just one more time :D(god knows you have done some hit and runs on me)


I'll stop now :)
 
Kleegamefan said:
Sorry man.....I just had to stab you just one more time :D(god knows you have done some hit and runs on me)


I'll stop now :)

No it's fine. I was laughing about it too (because I think I just got what you were insinuating about my SLI comment). ;)
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Hey Shog...Since you seem to be in a humble mood right now....can I ask you an honest question:

Are you gonna get a PS3 and what games are you looking forward to playing on it if you do?


I always wondered this.....I take stabs at X360 and MS in fun, but I still have the console and am a fan of many of its games (most notably Bumfight 360, Ridge Racer 6, GRAW and the upcoming drool-worthy Mass Effect)...

I know you are not the biggest fan of sony but will you still allow yourself to enjoy some PS3 games in the future? :)
 

Dunpeal

Banned
Kleegamefan said:
Hey Shog...Since you seem to be in a humble mood right now....can I ask you an honest question...

Are you gonna get a PS3 and what games are you looking forward to playing on it if you do?


I always wondered this.....I take stabs at X360 and MS in fun, but I still have the console and am a fan of many of its games (most notably Ridge Racer 6, GRAW and the upcoming drool-worthy Mass Effect)...

I know you are not the biggest fan of sony but will you still allow yourself to enjoy some PS3 games in the future? :)

Its touching moment
 
m0dus said:
6 months from now this argument is going to seem even more stupid and pointless. :lol

If you think there's no difference in the shots, you're blind and delusional.

If you think the difference is just because of a substantial power gap between the two machines, and not a result of extra dev time with a focus on improving the visuals, you're an idiot.

It would be akin to live 06 and 07, or NBA 2k6 or 2k7 being released 6 months apart. Seriously, this isn't rocket science.


That was my whole point of my reply as well..but some people sorta got ruffled feathers over it i guess lol but on the other hand..i still dont think there is much of a diffrence besides some tweaking..seriously
 
Shogmaster said:
I'm realistic. I appreciate the HDR I've seen in X360 titles so far but they don't approach whatever those two PS3 demos were doing back in 2005 E3. Maybe some of the PC titles running on rediculous SLI set ups will be doing it in games soon, but I don't think we'll see anything like that in the consoles for a while because of their bandwidth limitations.

I believe our own Fafalada squashed the "SLI devkit" rumor awhile back.

As for the quality argument, as I mentioned before mathmatically NAO32 has more bits of precision allocated to its HDR component than FP16, its simply more precise (hence better quality). I'll agree with gofreak, what you're perceiving as a "difference" is down to the contrasting settings and artistic applications. Maybe a little placebo effect as well considering you thought it was inferior to begin with.
 

Razoric

Banned
how the hell is this 19 pages? what is the argument about? the shots look good, a little better than the 360 version even. What the **** else is there to talk about?!?
 
Kleegamefan said:
Hey Shog...Since you seem to be in a humble mood right now....can I ask you an honest question:

Are you gonna get a PS3 and what games are you looking forward to playing on it if you do?

There's no way I'm gonna be able to afford the thing with all the stuff I have to buy (including a Cintiq 21UX and maybe even another TPC). My new job is sorta forcing my hands.

It's not like I'm gonna be able to find one anyways this X-Mas. :lol


I always wondered this.....I take stabs at X360 and MS in fun, but I still have the console and am a fan of many of its games (most notably Bumfight 360, Ridge Racer 6, GRAW and the upcoming drool-worthy Mass Effect)...

I know you are not the biggest fan of sony but will you still allow yourself to enjoy some PS3 games in the future? :)

Don't paint me into a absolute anti Sony guy. I owned so many Sony stuff in the past, it's not even funny (including obviously a Playstation. PS2 I never got because my roommate at the time had it and I got the XBox instead to spread the cost between us)! When the finances and supplies come to the right point, I'll probably get one anyways. I'm still hoping Sony comes back with a new Clie line and finally do a proper Palm PDA with a screen higher than 480x320. You know what? Nevermind.... PDAs are deader than dead. :lol
 
hukasmokincaterpillar said:
I believe our own Fafalada squashed the "SLI devkit" rumor awhile back.

Wait, what rumor (and "mine" to boot?)? I don't remember starting any rumors about SLI anything.


As for the quality argument, as I mentioned before mathmatically NAO32 has more bits of precision allocated to its HDR component than FP16, its simply more precise (hence better quality). I'll agree with gofreak, what you're perceiving as a "difference" is down to the contrasting settings and artistic applications. Maybe a little placebo effect as well considering you thought it was inferior to begin with.

Maybe that's true. It might be art thing, or that the HDTV used was 1366x768 and was scaling it up, maybe the softness in lighting was due to AA or is intentional. Maybe it's just memory. But I swear, the explosions in that UT demo with robot and the guy with dreads had some rediculously gorgeous lighting. I haven't seen anything that topped it since with the exception of the FN3 demo from the same E3.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Shogmaster said:
There's no way I'm gonna be able to afford the thing with all the stuff I have to buy (including a Cintiq 21UX and maybe even another TPC). My new job is sorta forcing my hands.

It's not like I'm gonna be able to find one anyways this X-Mas. :lol

I'll be more than happy to sell you one for $2000:lol j/k


Shogmaster said:
Don't paint me into a absolute anti Sony guy. I owned so many Sony stuff in the past, it's not even funny (including obviously a Playstation. PS2 I never got because my roommate at the time had it and I got the XBox instead to spread the cost between us)! When the finances and supplies come to the right point, I'll probably get one anyways. I'm still hoping Sony comes back with a new Clie line and finally do a proper Palm PDA with a screen higher than 480x320. You know what? Nevermind.... PDAs are deader than dead. :lol

Nah, I did't think you were totally an anti-Sony guy, just someone who like to amuse himself with the boneheaded decisions some of these companys make, along with the comments from their blind faithful......(for the record, I do have a certain amount of faith in PS3 games, but that is because Sony make some games I absolutely *love* and PS1/2 gave me more years of enjoyment than any console had a right to, even though I had every other console too)

You have to admit some of the decisions made by the bigwigs @ MS and Sony are questionable at minimum, not to mention some of the quotes they have made over the last year or so have been laughable....Sony is especially guilty of this...
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
Don't paint me into a absolute anti Sony guy. I owned so many Sony stuff in the past, it's not even funny

... dude, i have something crazy like 8 PS2s, 3 PSPs, christ knows how many PS1s and a PSX.

Seriously, no one on gaf is going to swallow ownership as a sign of not being biased.
Just a heads up :)
 
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