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Former 343i Employee speaks out about Halo Infinite (Crunch, game over ambitious, cut content...) and Schreier has a story about 343i coming up

MiguelItUp

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moot.

Can be argued about anything to avoid actually talking about any issues in any industry.

If you are unhappy with the post Miguel, "you can leave". See, I can avoid discussing things too, see... =)
Correct.

But only some people continue to complain about things expecting change that never happens while staying put. It's unfortunate. Especially since everyone deserves to be happy.

I also went on to discuss things after saying that. 👀🤷🏻‍♂️
 
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Tschumi

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Well seems like this is one of those somewhat rare instances of general media consensus on a diagnosis being proved essentially accurate 6 months later by a forum post.

My opinion on it all has certainly been reinvigorated!
 

AmuroChan

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Why are we so concerned with OT in the gaming industry vs every other industry where OT is common? Is it because they decided to call it "crunch" vs OT?

I don't get it either, unless they're not getting paid for their OT in which case that's messed up. I work in software development (not gaming software) and people will fight over OT opportunities because they get paid 1.5x whatever their hourly rate is.
 

Rhazer Fusion

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In my own world.
m.youtube.com
To be fair, Japanese people are disciplined and realize its part of life and get on with it. They are not pussified and SJW'ized like the west.
From what I’ve heard and read, Japan’s elongated work hours and extreme work life can definitely lead to depression. Japanese people seemingly hide their emotions and feelings better though.
 

stickkidsam

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but it’s not an issue. All these people can go to any job they want. It’s not like they are being told “ you will work overtime or you are finished in this industry!” No one is doing that. most of these people are contract hires as well. Most projects are light at the beginning and tight at the end. It’s not a factory job where you do one task constantly until the bell rings

it’s only a big deal because people like Jason has cultivated a negativity surrounding it to sell clicks and books.
Shitty working conditions and companies abusing their employees passion for their job is not something that should just be okay. You say nobody is telling them they're finished if in the industry if they don't work overtime but the fact is that they are. If you are not willing or able to work overtime in the industry, you'll generally be let go very quickly. Just because they don't explicitly say that doesn't matter. What's worse is that a lot of game development involves outsourcing to 3rd parties who do not receive any of the benefits that might normally be received.

This guy Noodle did a video in which he interviewed multiple devs including Marty O'Donnell (former composer for Halo/Bungie). Crunch itself can be fine but having it be an industry wide rule is the problem.



Can we stop with the broad generalizations based on race?
The comparison has nothing to do with race. It's a statement on Japanese culture and the ethic it generally instill on its people (for better or worse).
 

LRKD

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Ah yes, Jason Schreier gaming 'journalist'.
 

Zeroing

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From what I’ve heard and read, Japan’s elongated work hours and extreme work life can definitely lead to depression. Japanese people seemingly hide their emotions and feelings better though.
Japan has weird work camp classes where they teach managers how to be more efficient and think about the company first as their only goal!
it is surreal and creepy!
 

EDMIX

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Correct.

But only some people continue to complain about things expecting change that never happens while staying put. It's unfortunate. Especially since everyone deserves to be happy.

I also went on to discuss things after saying that. 👀🤷🏻‍♂️

(angry face emoji)

lol

I see what you mean, but they have no place in actually bringing in real legislation, their job is to simply report the news, expose it happening etc. People deserve better I agree, but this is helping in getting more exposer to this issue to even help when some day someone wants to introduce some bill to protect game developers or something. So its not just complaining for the sake if it, they are crying out in hopes that the right people hear it to introduce bills to correct the issue.

I think its wrong to even make it seem like the people crying about it, are now task with changing it as if they are legislators or something. Their job should be to just create games, not lobby for different laws. At the very least such news articles can get to the right place where someone can do something about it, but i don't its fair to make it this either or on developers.
 

LRKD

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Either that's one helluva early bloomer or Schreier doesn't know what pedophile means.
Here is the real quote, and his follow up comment if you are interested.

TL;DR He's a idiot who doesn't know what pedophile means, and was trying to save Japan and JRPGS in particular from heading in the wrong direction.
 

RoboFu

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Shitty working conditions and companies abusing their employees passion for their job is not something that should just be

I would agree with you but your initial sentence is the problem. Where are these horrible abuses? Where are these shitty working conditions?

like I said it’s not a factory job. Usually software projects are very light at the start and only get heavy at the end. These people are not tied to a desk 24 / 7. Lots of meetings about how things are going to go. So you have months of doing very little and months of having to really work.

I’ve been In software development for over 25 years now and I have yet to see any sweat shop situation like you guys believe is going on.
 
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Drewpee

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I don't get it either, unless they're not getting paid for their OT in which case that's messed up. I work in software development (not gaming software) and people will fight over OT opportunities because they get paid 1.5x whatever their hourly rate is.
Agreed, working OT at their normal rate would be wrong but if they are receiving OT pay for OT hours I dont get it.
 

JLB

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Ah, here was go again. More "crunch is bad" pieces that sound awful to everyone outside of the AAA industry, because they don't realize that crunch is very much a standard thing in AAA and has been for decades.

It's so annoying.
Crunch is terrible. The fact dmthat is a common practice doesnt make it any better.
Coming from someone that worked in the past for 30+ hours with no sleep.
 
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Batiman

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Crunch is only bad if you’re jobs on the line non stop. Which seems to be the case in the gaming industry. If it’s just encouraged then I have no problem with it. I love crunch time at work. There’s always crunch time in the food industry. Lots of OT available whenever I want and make big money. But I have the option. If it was forced I could understand how it could be mentally frustrating.
 

JLB

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I don't get it either, unless they're not getting paid for their OT in which case that's messed up. I work in software development (not gaming software) and people will fight over OT opportunities because they get paid 1.5x whatever their hourly rate is.

Theres a difference between “hey, do a guard this night and get x” and “hey mf, you better work all weekends til release or you will get fired and we will put you on a black list so no one else will hire you”.
 

EDMIX

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I’ve been In software development for over 25 years now and I have yet to see any sweat shop situation like you guys believe is going on

Look....I respect that you've been in such an industry for 2 and half decades and what you have to say has great weight as....this is what you do, but you damn well know you haven't see all studios all over the world at any given time during that 25 years.

Thats like me saying I was in retail for 7 years (horrid time) and be like "I have yet to see someone get they ass beat in retail IN FRONT OF ME" and pretend like that shit doesn't happen or something.










This got me avoiding all my finals right now lol
 
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If this wasn't an indication that 343 were having problems...



Then I don't know what to tell you.

Because he's the hero Halo deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll meme him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent screenshot, a watchful jpeg. A mocked brute.”​

 

CitizenZ

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I went thru 2 major company transitions and basically had to work 12+ hrs for months working 7 days a week and was basically treated like a God to crap, but I powered through for one reason...survival. Now Im semi retired, kicking back and relaxing. I actually thrive in that environment and so do a lot of others, but majority cower and cry.

I also forgot to reply to "Overly ambitious" meaning possibly, left trigger/ Right bumper?
 
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Nemesis Prime

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I have no doubt this is going to be by far their best game ever, and a very good halo game overall.

I won’t be competing with the last of us 2 or the god of war but I think it’ll come pretty damn close. Multiplayer is king anyways
 
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Claus Grimhildyr

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I find it funny that people hate this guy, he just reports what people tell him and this seems to hurt feelings.

It would be far more interesting if Schreier was found to be making things up.

In terms of 'crunch', if it keeps happening continuously, project after project - I see it as a failure of top level management and of course it happens in many industries.

Top level management should either be setting more realistic deadlines or doing far more to remove tedious processes so their teams can be as productive as possible.

Schreier is an opportunistic cunt who doesn’t care about the industry or those working in it. He only cares about his bottom line and getting attention. There is plenty of info out there of him obfuscating thr truth to paint companies and folks/groups in a poor light and ignoring positive testimonials as they won’t provide clicks.

I find it funny that folks like you try to defend this leech and ignoring the years or evidence of his bullshit.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

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Look....I respect that you've been in such an industry for 2 and half decades and what you have to say has great weight as....this is what you do, but you damn well know you haven't see all studios all over the world at any given time during that 25 years.

Thats like me saying I was in retail for 7 years (horrid time) and be like "I have yet to see someone get they ass beat in retail IN FRONT OF ME" and pretend like that shit doesn't happen or something.










This got me avoiding all my finals right now lol

So a few videos proves this is a common issue for you? Well shit I guess if I get a few videos made of birds attacking people you would believe that most birds want to attack people.
 

AmuroChan

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Theres a difference between “hey, do a guard this night and get x” and “hey mf, you better work all weekends til release or you will get fired and we will put you on a black list so no one else will hire you”.

I don't buy that that's happening to a majority of the employees at every studio. If it's as widespread a problem as a Jason Schreier makes it out to be, there would be lawsuits up the wazoo. Blacklisting someone professionally is literally illegal in this country.
 

MiguelItUp

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(angry face emoji)

lol

I see what you mean, but they have no place in actually bringing in real legislation, their job is to simply report the news, expose it happening etc. People deserve better I agree, but this is helping in getting more exposer to this issue to even help when some day someone wants to introduce some bill to protect game developers or something. So its not just complaining for the sake if it, they are crying out in hopes that the right people hear it to introduce bills to correct the issue.

I think its wrong to even make it seem like the people crying about it, are now task with changing it as if they are legislators or something. Their job should be to just create games, not lobby for different laws. At the very least such news articles can get to the right place where someone can do something about it, but i don't its fair to make it this either or on developers.
Yeah, I suppose so. The real issue here though is the AAA game industry accepting it and wanting to change. But to be quite honest, I don't see that happening, at least not any time soon. Though of course I'd love for it to.

In my experience in the industry I knew several veterans that basically reacted saying, "You work for the game industry, it's awesome, you should feel excited, and lucky to be here!" Which is pretty gross. Also talked to other vets that talked about how a lot of higher ups look at QA as an incredibly expendable team that can be easily replaced because "people always want to work in video games." There's a lot of gross mindsets that exist within the walls.

The thing is, when I say that the AAA game industry needs to accept it and want change, I say that because of their workflows and everything. Because with how the standard AAA workflows function, they always claim they never "want" crunch to happen, but that realistically crunch would potentially occur before specific mile stones, and submitting for cert / shipping. It's almost like they save areas of development for it. That they'd rather crunch the employees they have and hire for that project, rather than hire more to reduce the chances of crunch to save money and reduce the extra cost of development.

Crunch is terrible. The fact dmthat is a common practice doesnt make it any better.
Coming from someone that worked in the past for 30+ hours with no sleep.
It's not for everyone, and honestly, that's the easiest way to say it. Not saying it makes it any better, just stating the fact that it is something that exists, and has existed there for over 20+ years. It's deeply embedded in a lot of work flows.

This is also coming from someone that has crunched in the AAA industry at two different studios and on multiple projects. At one, our work day started at 10AM, scrum at 11AM, and when in hard crunch we'd leave anywhere between 3AM-7AM, only to return at 10AM and do it all over again until we met our goal. The weekends as well, though that was typically 7/8/9AM (whenever you could make it as early as possible) to 5/6/7PM. At the other, the work day started at 9AM, scrum at 10AM, and when in hard crunch it was more of the same. Along with similar weekend schedules as the previous gig. When I was contract, I was paid time and a half, and that made a lot of it easier. When I wasn't contract we had multiple free meals, drinks, etc. This was all in my experience as QA of course, as a QA tester, senior QA tester, and QA manager.

When I transitioned into Community Specialist/Manager crunch didn't exist at all. Unless I wanted to help QA, but it was never mandatory.

Over the years it bummed me out because I realized how many things I missed out on as a result of crunching. But at the time, I made the most of it, and honestly had a great time as I was spending it was some of the most talented and awesome people I've ever met.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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Zzz Ok GIF by Jim Gaffigan


Go read the December Inside Infinite. Nearly everything said here was said in that update, so where is the new information? They literally confirm many engine features weren't even implemented yet back then. They go into specifics. Who could've guessed that something went wrong with development? Was it when it was delayed an entire year?

Hype still through the roof for Halo Infinite.
 

pasterpl

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I have worked with multiple startups and crunch is a norm in these, it is daily, constant thing, and you are being tasked with things to do that are completely not related to your position, but because it is startup it is always “all hands on deck”, I like this way of working, very demanding, very chaotic, but also very rewarding. Now I work with massive corporate client and crunch is almost non existent, but the role is getting me bored.
 
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Because much of the time it hardly sounds like anything to get upset about? Like if what this guy said is construed as "crunch" I'll laugh.. occasional overtime for some people?

These people are insanely well paid too, as are all Microsoft employees.

There are loads of people that specifically seek out development jobs that offer overtime.. it's a perk.. because it pays insanely well.
I' m not sure why you decided that he was talking about "occasional overtime", because the only thing that I read is people working till early in the morning in a period of time of a few year. I can see nothing about how occasional or common this situation was, so I don't see how define if this was crunch or not .
 

Claus Grimhildyr

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I' m not sure why you decided that he was talking about "occasional overtime", because the only thing that I read is people working till early in the morning in a period of time of a few year. I can see nothing about how occasional or common this situation was, so I don't see how define if this was crunch or not .
It has already been confirmed that numerous studios he railed against for “crunch” were only a few months out of 6+ years and offered both increased pay and numerous health related physicians and psychiatrists to ensure no employee would be harmed.

Stop listening to Schreier.
 

JerryinSoCal

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Crunch fucking sucks and I don't understand why anyone would defend it. Stop sucking off billion dollar companies who couldn't care less about you.

Btw. the 2 or 3 times a month where you work an hour overtime is not crunch....
I don't defend it but I don't think I should care too much about it one way or the other, does anyone pretending to care about crunch for well paid game developers care as much about the people who work for peanuts assembling the electronic devices we all use every day?
 
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It has already been confirmed that numerous studios he railed against for “crunch” were only a few months out of 6+ years and offered both increased pay and numerous health related physicians and psychiatrists to ensure no employee would be harmed.

Stop listening to Schreier.
We are not talking about Shreirer, that still hasn't write anything about this situation, but of a video of an ex-employee of 343, so....
 

Panajev2001a

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I don't defend it but I don't think I should care too much about it one way or the other, does anyone pretending to care about crunch for well paid game developers care as much about the people who work for peanuts assembling the electronic devices we all use every day?
Yes, especially when dealing with expensive electronics for companies that boast about immense profit margins.

Same thing about maybe buying less but buying what is worth at the proper price.

… but we can pretend that two wrongs make a right.
 
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longdi

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which industries do not have crunch or is in perpetual 'employee's market' state?

that is capitalism to you.

bosses will want to squeeze every kpi outta you. 🤷‍♀️
 

geary

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Man, if every human on Earth would do only what is in his job description and work only the 8h a day we would still be in the medieval age.
 

MilkLizard

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Nah, we had 6 Japanese staff join our UK office from Japan at my old job, so we could train them up for our Japanese office. They couldnt believe some of the stuff we moan about.

While true, go ahead and compare suicide rates of UK and Japan. Or alcoholism. The "correct" way probably is somewhere in the middle IMO. That being said, crunch can be very productive and also is present in many industries. I work in aviation and 13 hour work days happened before and probably will happen again. As long as people are paid accordingly I don't see the big deal.

Can we stop with the broad generalizations based on race?

This has nothing to do with race. It's about different cultures and yeah, it varies around the world.
 
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clarky

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Fucking "crunch" again. Seriously who gives a fuck. In any other profession its called overtime, we all do it, your not special.

I don't work anything less than 12 hour days, do I want a chuffty badge for it? No you just get on with it.
 
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Shmunter

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As a gamer, I’d want to see this thing taken out back and shot. Pieces picked up and a project reboot focusing exclusively on the XsX with a downport to XsS only (and unfortunately). No last gen, no pc hdd restrictions.

But as Phill Spencer Shillington the third, I need our biggest IP on xcloud to sell that potential white elephant. And Xcloud is setup for mass scalability through One S profiles, not costly XsX for the foreseeable future.