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Former Sony Dev says, PS5 and Xbox Series X Power Difference Is STAGGERING !!!

Goliathy

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Percent is all that matters when you are dealing with scale. Unless you are simply looking to fuel your own personal fanboyism, then sure — look at the raw numbers and make any physical comparison that helps you sleep at night; be it PS4s, duct taped game cubes or frontier style covered wagon wheels.
still: AMD vastly improved the efficiency with RDNA 2.0, so:
the real world performance of GCN 1 TFLOP vs real world performance of RDNA 2.0 1 TFLOP.
In other words: a dev can do with 0.5 gcn Flop not very much.
But with 3 RDNA 2.0 flops he will be able to do MUCH MUCH MORE! So, any percentages difference in those is NOW with RDNA 2.0 much bigger than with GCN, since GCN wasn’t nearly as efficient as RDNA 2.0

there are comparisons with GCN vs RDNA 1.0 on PC and even there the difference is huge, and now with RDNA 2.0 the difference is even bigger!
 

Goliathy

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This has nothing to do with fanboyism. I am talking about math and logic.
Yup, and that doesn’t even take into account that GCN isn‘t nearly as efficient as RSNA 2.0. now. So any TFLOP now is much more „worth“ with RDNA 2.0 compared to old GCN. It’s a HUGE difference.
and the Games WILL reflect that. We will see when DF compares the games.
 
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Ar¢tos

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I can't believe people are still shouting that VRS is MS exclusive secret sauce just because they got a patent. Let's just ignore the other 5 or 6 companies that also have VRS patents. Sony alone has about 4 patents on it (patents aren't on results, but on techniques to obtain them and there are many ways to do VRS).
 

EDMIX

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This is what I don’t get:

BBBBUT THE GAMES!!!!

well, what games now? Sony’s launch lineups are not really the best. Anyone remember the PS4 launch lineup?
Im sure that there are going to be good exclusives on ps5... but it will take YEARS!
So far we know about GODFALL... and that’s to me not a reason to buy a ps5...
For Xbox series X we know about halo infinite which IS a reason for many halo fans.

so, I would like to know, what PS5 GAMES are you going to buy AT LAUNCH?
Moot. I don't buy game systems solely based on what is out at launch, I buy based on knowing that great games will clearly exist down the line. Knowing a Assassins Creed will launch with it is good enough for me tbh. Anything else is a cherry on top.

I don't even know why you asked such a question knowing the launch titles haven't been confirmed outside of Godfall. I got PS4 at launch cause I played The Last Of Us 1 on PS3 and its one of the greatest games of all time....

Sooooo PS4 having stuff like BF4, ACIV or even Knack at launch isn't something I see as anything to keep me from buying a PS4 knowing The Last Of Us 2 is very much a likelihood. By that logic, no one should buy any system around launch.

Isn't MS also NOT DOING Series X exclusives? As in...isn't Halo Infinite a XONE game being ported to PC and Series X?

So if Sony ports Ghost Of Tsushima can we also say "we know about Ghost Of Tsushima which IS a reason for many PS fans"? smh

So Halo fans could have also played Halo Infinite on XONE and PC.....they could have bought it on XONE and just played it on Series X....JUST like someone can buy Ghost and play it on PS5.....

Based on what MS is even doing, I don't know if I'd go as far as even calling those games Series X games, they are not anymore "Series X" games then The Last Of Us 1 is a PS4 game then. So to worry about PS fans is strange considering MS isn't evne making next gen games at all for several years, they are just making XONE games and porting them. So I'd rather get a PS5 where Sony will actually be making games ONLY FOR PS5 to max it out, vs here is a series of ports for a few years.
 
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polybius80

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It did, some games even were 720 vs 1080.
xbox one problems with resolution comes from the memory configuration they used, the esram is the fast part of the memory so naturally the framebuffers are there but its only 32 MB wich is really small, for example for defferred rendering engines like MGSV, its not a coincidence that the games with less resolution on xbox one require fast buffers that are too big for the esram, if xbox one had GDDR5 or another pool but bigger and faster than DDR3 the devs can target higher resolution and make effects lower if they want, they are not forced to a lower resolution because it doesn't fit in memory for they way they draw things
 
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SuperLupeRap

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I’ve chatted to a few devs and they have confirmed the power difference is quite staggering. "is quite shocking"

Sure thing you did, not sure WHY they would talk to you in particular about NGEN systems, having signed an NDA and all that .... and not just with 1 dev. (which would have been more believable), but whith A FEW devs. around the world via ICQ! nonetheless. He also seems not to be working in the industry, can´t find anything.

These developers have also said, however, that this doesn’t mean the PS5 won’t be getting great games. However they have said it doesn’t mean you can’t make good games on the PS5.

Why repeat the sentence twice? Dementia? This was poorly written. Another ex Sony employee hurt by the meanie crunch monster. Also this :

But I guess you're of those people who believes Jason Schreir?
 

SuperLupeRap

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Did not MS say they were creating lots of B-tier games for their next console since they wanted more games than this gens? With the power of SX it could still be great. Next months are going to be cool for both sides anyway.
No they didn't say that.
 
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Stiflers Mom

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In these times, not only I learned that people really swore allegiance to a corporation, despite whatever they may come up with, but also that people are not able to simply count anymore... :D
 

Dory16

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I think the bigger shame is that Microsoft cheeped out on the GDDR6 and caused the entire split pool scenario, if only they had ponied up for 20GB of GDDR6 they'd have 590GB/s access to all the memory.
And then you would only have the price to whine and troll about. Missed opportunity for MS indeed.
 
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UnNamed

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Sorry for the semi OT,
anybody knows what is the PS5 minimum GPU clock or Cerny said something about it?

If the gpu TF base is 9.2 we can assume PS5 will run between 2000 and 2230 mhz, but if the base clock is more reasonable and similar to XSX, so around 1900mhz, this means PS5 will have 8.7TF in case of CPU heavy load.

Also, is Smarthisft a tech inside RDN2 so also Microsoft can take advantage of it?
 
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Kokoloko85

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Cant wait for comparison videos. This guy is gonna get slaughtered along with a couple of other ms beggers.
Aagain seems totally different to what other developers are saying and digital foudry and other tech experts lol
 
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JägerSeNNA

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Sorry for the semi OT,
anybody knows what is the PS5 minimum GPU clock or Cerny said something about it?

If the gpu TF base is 9.2 we can assume PS5 will run between 2000 and 2230 mhz, but if the base clock is more reasonable and similar to XSX, so around 1900mhz, this means PS5 will have 8.7TF in case of CPU heavy load.

Also, is Smarthisft a tech inside RDN2 so also Microsoft can take advantage of it?
2.23ghz for a console GPU is crazy,almost unbelievable number. Sony needs a very solid cooling system to balance the heat otherwise it does not take too long that the APU burns in the console,if the core speed runs over %95 of the time at it’s peak performance.
 

PuppetMaster

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Sorry for the semi OT,
anybody knows what is the PS5 minimum GPU clock or Cerny said something about it?

If the gpu TF base is 9.2 we can assume PS5 will run between 2000 and 2230 mhz, but if the base clock is more reasonable and similar to XSX, so around 1900mhz, this means PS5 will have 8.7TF in case of CPU heavy load.

Also, is Smarthisft a tech inside RDN2 so also Microsoft can take advantage of it?
I just did the calculation. Both PS5 and XboxSX are basically 128ops per core/ per cycle

Because:
10.3TF/36 cores/2.230 Ghz=128 ops/cycle
12.15TF/52 cores/1.825 Ghz=128 ops/cycle


Therefore a PS5 GPU at 9.2TF would be running at 1.996Ghz (basically 2Ghz)

Because
9.2TF / 36 / 128 = 1.996 Ghz


BTW, to go down to your 8.7 TF, PS5 GPU would have to be clocked all the way down to 1.88 Ghz.
 
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UnNamed

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BTW, to go down to your 8.7 TF, PS5 GPU would have to be clocked all the way down to 1.88 Ghz.
Is reasonable considering even 2ghz clock is high.
1.88hz is near the stock clock. PS5 is basically the first overclocked console ever released.
 

Proelite

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This is AMD SmartShift:



Notice how the power ratios between GPU and CPU can be extreme either side?

The ends are the CPU downclocked by 50%, and the GPU upclocked by 20%, or the CPU upclocked by 20% and the GPU downclocked by 40%.

I expect the PS5 to spend most of its time at ~3.4GHz, and ~2ghz. The memory bandwidth suggests that operating range. 448GB/s is too little for ~10TF narrow and fast design.

Just a reminder that PS5 GPU at 2.23ghz has to push 53% more rasterization per GB/s than the X.

I think there are edge cases in some games where 2.23ghz can be brought to full use. I.e. moments with lots of alpha transparency effects (fog, windows).
 
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Lol all this talk without showing any real game is laughable.

Third parties will make games that look the same for both systems, with minor differences like we are seeing on Pro and X Today. Good luck thinking that japanese developers are going to prioritize the series X.

It will come down to first party developers to squeeze the power of each machine.

The console with the biggest difference in power ever released was the original XBOX, much more powerful than PS2 and Gamecube. How did that generation go?


Microsoft has confirmed like a million times that all their games will be playable on XBOX ONE as well which means that they won't be able to take advantage of the supernatural power of the Series X. They are limiting themselves.
 
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darkinstinct

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This is AMD SmartShift:



Notice how the power ratios between GPU and CPU can be extreme either side?

The ends are the CPU downclocked by 50%, and the GPU upclocked by 20%, or the CPU upclocked by 20% and the GPU downclocked by 40%.

I expect the PS5 to spend most of its time at ~3.4GHz, and ~2ghz. The memory bandwidth suggests that operating range. 448GB/s is too little for ~10TF narrow and fast design.

Just a reminder that PS5 GPU at 2.23ghz has to push 53% more rasterization per GB/s than the X.

I think there are edge cases in some games where 2.23ghz can be brought to full use. I.e. moments with lots of alpha transparency effects (fog, windows).
Thanks. Looks like PS5 will be a 10.28 TF console on paper and a real life 9.2 TF console.
 

Goliathy

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Microsoft has confirmed like a million times that all their games will be playable on XBOX ONE as well which means that they won't be able to take advantage of the supernatural power of the Series X. They are limiting themselves.
this only applies to first party games - 3rd partys are allowed to ignore the base xbox - and for microsoft studios its only for the first year of the console.
secondly, doesnt mean that they are going to be limited, even this gen we had different versions of forza for example.

Just compare forza horizon 2 on xbox 360 vs xbox one, not only graphically, but also gameplaywise there are things on the xbox one version, that arent on the xbox 360 version:

Once the initial car selection is complete, the Horizon festival road trip begins - and the journey through the game is almost entirely different to the Xbox One experience. There is commonality in the structure of the game world and the cars you'll drive through it, but the differences between the two games stack up very quickly. Events and circuits in each location are entirely unique to each version, while supplementary 'side quests' - such as the bucket list tests that see you take a new car on loan for a single challenge - are also different from one game to the next. Even the showcase events, where your car takes on various alternative land- and air-based vehicles, are also shaken up with unique content.

The overall impression is that Sumo hasn't exactly ported Forza Horizon 2 from Xbox One to the 360, but rather that it has produced its own companion piece that is better suited to the hardware limitations of the older console. There's also the sense that it has sought to extract the best possible results from the existing Xbox 360 engine created for the original Horizon, as opposed to tackling the nigh-on impossible task of scaling down the Xbox One codebase. Generally speaking, the approach works, even though one of the most satisfying experiences of the new game feels a little lacking on Xbox 360.

Off-road racing is a core component of Forza Horizon 2, and on Xbox One, the sensation of ploughing cross-country, blasting through detail-rich, thick foliage is one experience that feels new and exciting, helping to give the game the feeling that the title is a true next-gen pioneer in the racing genre. There's nothing to stop you driving off-road on Xbox 360, but the events structure to make the most of it is lacking - you leave the tarmac in many events, but the emphasis remains on circuit racing.

Other next-gen elements are also missing in the Xbox 360 game - specifically, the vast range of online gameplay features Playground has shoehorned into the Xbox One title. There's also no Drivatar AI either - much maligned by many in Forza Motorsport 5, comparing Forza Horizon 2 between Xbox 360 and Xbox One demonstrates how worthwhile the feature actually is - if only for the unpredictability the evolved AIs add.

And yeah, MS has the money to pull that off. Easily. But we will see later on how the games compare.
 
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oldergamer

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Sony fans seem to forget that PC developers are familiar with targeting different levels of hardware. It's not that difficult if done from the beginning. Did Crysis not look great years 5 years after its initial release due to the work that went into scalable visuals and features? Of course it did. The fact you could run it on lower end hardware did that diminish from the gameplay at all.
 
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-kb-

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It's not necessarily the same implementation for both systems, we do NOT know yet.
Sure, but the patent is the RDNA2.0 implementation and they both use RNDA2.0 so its likely the same, or largely the same for both. Its 100% the implementation for the XSX given the GitHub leaks.
 
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It'll be interesting to see what Xbox brings to the table with its ML capabilities. Hopefully it's close to DLSS 2.0. It'll be a huge advantage, another one, over the ps5: Sony might, maybe have this capability too but at 44 percent less(CUs)


Machine learning is a feature we've discussed in the past, most notably with Nvidia's Turing architecture and the firm's DLSS AI upscaling. The RDNA 2 architecture used in Series X does not have tensor core equivalents, but Microsoft and AMD have come up with a novel, efficient solution based on the standard shader cores. With over 12 teraflops of FP32 compute, RDNA 2 also allows for double that with FP16 (yes, rapid-packed math is back). However, machine learning workloads often use much lower precision than that, so the RDNA 2 shaders were adapted still further.

"We knew that many inference algorithms need only 8-bit and 4-bit integer positions for weights and the math operations involving those weights comprise the bulk of the performance overhead for those algorithms," says Andrew Goossen. "So we added special hardware support for this specific scenario. The result is that Series X offers 49 TOPS for 8-bit integer operations and 97 TOPS for 4-bit integer operations. Note that the weights are integers, so those are TOPS and not TFLOPs. The net result is that Series X offers unparalleled intelligence for machine learning."

 
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darkinstinct

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If that culling technique is an automatic process, the boost that can be achieved in both frame rate and level of detail is surreal. And it still doesn't explain the Hellblade 2 demo, because there isn't any occlusion going on there and it still looks like there are no visible LOD swaps even in the distance. DirectML is basically making almost the full power of the GPU available for what you can actually see. Now there are some downsides to this, lighting being the obvious thing. If your lightsource is occluded it should still cast a light onto the visible area. And if that dragon had a shadow it should show everything and not just the front. But I suppose that's easy enough to implement, just taking the direction of lights into consideration when culling geometry.
 
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StormCell

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Uh?

Most of them, actually.
You think most new-gen games won't be able to dial down resolution, draw distance, and object counts to provide basically the same game on current-gen hardware? Like, isn't that basically what MS is getting ready to do, especially with Lockhart and the continued support of Xbox One?

I'm not talking about just graphics. We need games that push the envelope in opponent AI and interactive stories. There's got to be more to games than superficial world objects that get pasted throughout an open world.
 

Reindeer

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If that culling technique is an automatic process, the boost that can be achieved in both frame rate and level of detail is surreal. And it still doesn't explain the Hellblade 2 demo, because there isn't any occlusion going on there and it still looks like there are no visible LOD swaps even in the distance. DirectML is basically making almost the full power of the GPU available for what you can actually see. Now there are some downsides to this, lighting being the obvious thing. If your lightsource is occluded it should still cast a light onto the visible area. And if that dragon had a shadow it should show everything and not just the front. But I suppose that's easy enough to implement, just taking the direction of lights into consideration when culling geometry.
This along with what some devs are now saying could be a much better compression solution on Series X could give Series X some series advantage. PS5 could have some smart features of its own, but all this talk about PS5 having better and smarter architecture was just a load of BS brought to you by the same folks that had PS5 at 13.3 tflops. Dealer saying Series X can have 40-50 FPS advantage on GPU alone is just crazy talk, but I expect nothing else from him.
 
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Reindeer

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It’s amazing in 2013 Sony fanboys cared about Tflops and resolution, but in 2020 neither matter.

lol
2013? For the last few months leading up to reveal all the talk on GAF and Era was about Tflops even though everyone pretty much expected that PS5 SSD would be much faster, now those Tflops don't matter anymore and all that matters is faster SSD and superior audio. SMH.
 
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It’s amazing in 2013 Sony fanboys cared about Tflops and resolution, but in 2020 neither matter.

lol
It’s amazing that Xbox fanboys are trying to ram TFlops and resolution down everyone’s throats when devs are coming out left and right saying that anyone trying to paint this generation in such a black and white manner is an idiot. You do you though. 👌🏾
 

VectorVictor

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Look--more often than not, the less powerful console has won its generation (for a myriad of reasons), with the only exceptions being the Xbox 360 and Super Nintendo.
  • Atari 2600 over Intellivision and *Colecovision
  • Nintendo Entertainment System over *Sega Master System (and later *TG-16)
  • *Super Nintendo Entertainment System over Sega Genesis and TG-16.
  • Sony PlayStation over Sega Saturn and *Nintendo 64
  • Sony PlayStation 2 over *Sega Dreamcast, *Nintendo GameCube, and *Microsoft XBox
  • *XBox 360 over Sony PlayStation 3
  • *PlayStation 4 over XBox One and Nintendo Switch
* = More powerful console of that generation

Now, we could be seeing a shift towards customers recognizing power and performance, but I think it's honestly more games-based:

The XBox 360 had a great lineup, and titles like Dead Rising and Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion were paramount in securing that console's success early on. Plus, Microsoft went out and got JRPGs for content--namely Lost Odyssey (the best RPG of that generation, easily) and Blue Dragon, but there was a lot of 3rd party content that previously had not been seen anywhere but a Sony (or Sega) machine.

So even though the PS5 is decidedly a weaker system, contrary to fanboy rants, it doesn't mean it won't be the one walking out of the room a winner down the road. It just means it has a harder row to plow than Microsoft, especially if it's having to convince third parties to develop for its weaker console down the road.
 

FlyyGOD

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Look--more often than not, the less powerful console has won its generation (for a myriad of reasons), with the only exceptions being the Xbox 360 and Super Nintendo.
  • Atari 2600 over Intellivision and *Colecovision
  • Nintendo Entertainment System over *Sega Master System (and later *TG-16)
  • *Super Nintendo Entertainment System over Sega Genesis and TG-16.
  • Sony PlayStation over Sega Saturn and *Nintendo 64
  • Sony PlayStation 2 over *Sega Dreamcast, *Nintendo GameCube, and *Microsoft XBox
  • *XBox 360 over Sony PlayStation 3
  • *PlayStation 4 over XBox One and Nintendo Switch
* = More powerful console of that generation

Now, we could be seeing a shift towards customers recognizing power and performance, but I think it's honestly more games-based:

The XBox 360 had a great lineup, and titles like Dead Rising and Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion were paramount in securing that console's success early on. Plus, Microsoft went out and got JRPGs for content--namely Lost Odyssey (the best RPG of that generation, easily) and Blue Dragon, but there was a lot of 3rd party content that previously had not been seen anywhere but a Sony (or Sega) machine.

So even though the PS5 is decidedly a weaker system, contrary to fanboy rants, it doesn't mean it won't be the one walking out of the room a winner down the road. It just means it has a harder row to plow than Microsoft, especially if it's having to convince third parties to develop for its weaker console down the road.
Wasn't Xbox 360 more powerful than PS3 if I'm not mistaken ?
 
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Agnostic2020

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Look--more often than not, the less powerful console has won its generation (for a myriad of reasons), with the only exceptions being the Xbox 360 and Super Nintendo.
  • Atari 2600 over Intellivision and *Colecovision
  • Nintendo Entertainment System over *Sega Master System (and later *TG-16)
  • *Super Nintendo Entertainment System over Sega Genesis and TG-16.
  • Sony PlayStation over Sega Saturn and *Nintendo 64
  • Sony PlayStation 2 over *Sega Dreamcast, *Nintendo GameCube, and *Microsoft XBox
  • *XBox 360 over Sony PlayStation 3
  • *PlayStation 4 over XBox One and Nintendo Switch
* = More powerful console of that generation

Now, we could be seeing a shift towards customers recognizing power and performance, but I think it's honestly more games-based:

The XBox 360 had a great lineup, and titles like Dead Rising and Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion were paramount in securing that console's success early on. Plus, Microsoft went out and got JRPGs for content--namely Lost Odyssey (the best RPG of that generation, easily) and Blue Dragon, but there was a lot of 3rd party content that previously had not been seen anywhere but a Sony (or Sega) machine.

So even though the PS5 is decidedly a weaker system, contrary to fanboy rants, it doesn't mean it won't be the one walking out of the room a winner down the road. It just means it has a harder row to plow than Microsoft, especially if it's having to convince third parties to develop for its weaker console down the road.
Sure but few correction ps3 sold more than x360 LTD Worldwide.

Also ps5 and xsx are closest 2 consoles have ever been (15 to 19%)
 

Clarissa

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Does this mean I'll be playing Gran Turismo 7 at 240p 30 fps while Xbox owners get to play Forza 8 at glorious 4k HDR and 120 fps?? :messenger_confounded: :messenger_confounded: :messenger_confounded:
 

FlyyGOD

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No it wasn’t. PS3 was stronger, but the Xbox 360 was better streamlined and was easier to work with due to the architecture being that of a PC. Hmmm. Sure sounds familiar huh?
Who said the Series X isnt easier or more streamlined to work on? From what I'm reading the seris x with its Direct 12 software has a more familiar programming base for developers.
 
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Who said the Series X isnt easier or more streamlined to work on? From what I'm reading the seris x with its Direct 12 software has a more familiar programming base for developers.
My point is that we’ve already seen this type of situation play out before where one system was more powerful, but games still ended up running better on the weaker hardware because it was more developer focused. XSX might have a more familiar programming voice years later, but the PS5 was specifically built to take advantage of the SSD in conjunction with the rest of the system, hence why developers are excited about the PS5.
 

Ascend

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Wasn't Xbox 360 more powerful than PS3 if I'm not mistaken ?
Contrary to popular belief, the X360 had a more powerful graphics card. The part that was more powerful in the PS3 was the CPU, the (in)famous Cell. And the PS3 had to contend with a split RAM pool as well. The X360 was simply the better console overall, because it had the better GPU, the better RAM and an eSRAM to boot. The only advantage the PS3 had was the Cell, which ultimately wasn't really an advantage. The exclusives the PS3 put out had more to do with Sony's willingness to invest in them, vs MS strategy of befriending every 3rd party out there and leaving 1st parties as a secondary priority. But this was never presented in that way, because, well, the Sony defense force has quite an influence on the general view of things.

*XBox 360 over Sony PlayStation 3
Technically, the Wii wiped the floor with both.