Support NeoGAF

[Tunavi]

Without the merger, would either square or enix still be around?

 

[Beth Cyra]

Without the merger, would either square or enix still be around?

Both.

Square had a break out hit right before the merger with Kingdom Hearts plus other strong sellers.

Enix had and still does what might be the strongest brand in all of Japan.

 

[DJIzana]

Square has always and will always view Vaan as the lead character.

It's the reason that he is in Dissiida, the cover art for XII's 25Th Re Art, as well as first character Amano ever did for XII.

Not towards you, but the Vaan not being lead is old and boring now. Yes he wasn't early on, however the sheer length of time he was and the fact we never even saw the game before he was the lead makes the arguements dumb.

Just because he isn't the story center doesn't mean he isn't the MC of the game.

Mmmm I guess the XII DS game also doesn't help my argument either hahaha! Good point. I never did like that Vaan kid anyways.

 

[Levyne]

99% of the gameplay time it didn't matter who the lead actually was. The game let you play as whoever most all the time with large swathes of pure gameplay between story elements (at least in the 2nd half of the game)

About 7, doing a cursory glance. SE doesn't really do very many 100% internally developed games anymore, regardless. Even FF13-2 had outside help.

Seems like it. 7 is actually more than I thought out of the list but I haven't played a good chunk of that so I wasn't sure.

 

[jackal27]

There are certainly some Square Enix games that I have loved. Especially on the Enix side of things. I do believe that in hindsight, the merger was pretty awful though...

 

[Aeana]

What determines who the main character of a game is? Vaan is front and center in much of the promotional material. You don't have to play as him in the game, though, and his role in the story is basically nil after the opening segment. In truth, if anybody got focus in FF12, it was Ashe.

 

[Beth Cyra]

99% of the gameplay time it didn't matter who the lead actually was. The game let you play as whoever most all the time with large swathes of pure gameplay between story elements (at least in the 2nd half of the game)

There is also this.

 

[Glass Rebel]

This is a fan interpretation. This is not reality. Vaan is the main character. He is the turd in the punchbowl that has kept many people from finishing the game.

Like this wiki entry :I

 

[Levyne]

What determines who the main character of a game is? Vaan is front and center in much of the promotional material. You don't have to play as him in the game, though, and his role in the story is basically nil after the opening segment. In truth, if anybody got focus in FF12, it was Ashe.

Yeah, I was going to post in addendum that Vaan was an afterthought in many of the later cutscenes. Well, maybe not an afterthought, but not given a role or screentime of greater (often not even equal) importance of Ashe, Basch, or Balthier.

At least that is what my memory is telling me.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Did some pretty cool stuff with his character to.

Storyline is certainly of a different style, but Vaan getting the Goddess Blade and even before that pimp slapping Balthier was awesome.

On top of all this Vaan in TA2 is flat out amazing.

So I've heard. Never played past Tactics since I read that the story is not related to it.

--------------------

FOOLS! CLEARLY GILGAMESH IS THE MAIN CHARACTER OF EVERY FINAL FANTASY!

 

[Levyne]

So I've heard. Never played past Tactics since I read that the story is not related to it.

--------------------

FOOLS! CLEARLY GILGAMESH IS THE MAIN CHARACTER OF EVERY FINAL FANTASY!

Even the ones he's not in!

 

[BocoDragon]

So you guys are claiming that nobody likes FF10-2, Crystal Chronicles, DQ8, KH2, KH Chain of Memories, Radiata Stories, Rocket Slime, Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song, Grandia 3, Front Mission 5, Valkyrie Profile 2, Crisis Core, Dragon Quest Swords, The Last Remnant, The World Ends with You, DQ9, 4 Warriors of Light, Nier, and so on? Huh.

You know... I can safely say that I don't love any of these games (and some of them I downright hate. Saga ugh). I'm not saying they're not amazing games to some people, or that they don't have elements I loved... but no, I don't think any of them belong in the same league as what Square used to mean in the SNES and PS1 era (XII aside, for me). They're ok, I guess.

I own most of them too.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Even the ones he's not in!

OF COURSE! SUCH IS THE GREATNESS THAT IS GILGAMESH!

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

That doesn't seem like many people...

...and Toshiro Tsuchida, and untold numbers of rank and file, many who bolted to Gooch productions. Luck has provided where wisdom no longer assists.

 

[mao2]

I wonder what will happen if Square had merged with another company instead. Perhaps there still would be rivalry between the two companies today and good JRPGs being produced. :/

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Seriously guys, there's no main character in FF12. It's like in FF6 where the focus is on the group.

Vaan is prominent only in the beginning as the introduction to the world. Anyone who played the game knows this.

Square has always and will always view Vaan as the lead character.

It's the reason that he is in Dissiida, the cover art for XII's 25Th Re Art, as well as first character Amano ever did for XII.

Not towards you, but the Vaan not being lead is old and boring now. Yes he wasn't early on, however the sheer length of time he was and the fact we never even saw the game before he was the lead makes the arguements dumb.

Just because he isn't the story center doesn't mean he isn't the MC of the game.

You are right that Square does consider him as the lead, but story wise, the game isn't focused on him like how previous FF's had on Cloud, Squall and Zidane.

 

[Freshmaker]

Obvious to anyone who grew up with Squaresoft.

It's hard to blame the merger when you look at Square's side of the output. Welcome to urf.

 

[Kageshinzo]

The only IP I really cared about in Square's stable is Final Fantasy anyway. If I had a couple of disposable billions under my belt, I'd buy that IP and then chuck it Sakaguchi's way and ask him to play around with it once again.

 

[CorvoSol]

I'm sorry, I liked FFXIII, but I'll be the first to say that DQIX blew it out of the water, and it was a DS game. With a nameless/faceless protagonist.

Anyway, Square, maybe if you actually localized your goddamn games and put stuff out sooner than half a decade you'd have more money.

But NOOOOOOOO if the Fortune Teller says to keep employing Toriyama and letting him rape your franchises and to never export anything other than what gets his okay, then hey, who am I to disagree?

 

[djtiesto]

You know... I can safely say that I don't love any of these games (and some of them I downright hate. Saga ugh). I'm not saying they're not amazing games to some people, or that they don't have elements I loved... but no, I don't think any of them belong in the same league as what Square used to mean in the SNES and PS1 era (XII aside, for me). They're ok, I guess.

I own most of them too.

DQ8, Nier, VP2, TWEWY and Rocket Slime are all unbelievable (DQ8 was my game of last gen for instance... ), also really liked Radiata Stories (though I understand people are divisive about it; but I liked the humor, graphics, nonlinearity, and awesome town)

 

[thefro]

wow this CEO makes an interesting point. Square Soft was ballsy before they merged with Enix, after the merger they lost the balls and started playing it safe...

Sakaguchi was willing to take risks and support his developers' ideas... plus he knew how to make the trains run on time and get games out the door. But he's always been a risk-taker (still is).

Once The Spirits Within bombed they lost most of that.

 

[LevelNth]

I'd like to hear more about this.

LevelNth dropping truth bombs up in here but still going mostly ignored.

Thanks Drek, and this will be my last attempt to shed light on this whole subject, hopefully I'm not as ignored as before. I do not know much about games anymore, but I was OBSESSED with Square back in the day, and I followed nothing more closely a decade ago than this merger.

First off: THE MERGER DID NOT SAVE SQUARE, NOR WAS IT REQUIRED TO. Everyone in this thread thinking/saying this, stop it. You are wrong. You are not right. Stop it.

Enix had a problem. They were essentially a tiny, completely unproductive publisher except for one mega-ultimate franchise. The problem? They controlled absolutely zero part of it. DQ is Horri's, and Enix could never control how and when he made them. Thus, the expansion potential of Enix was completely limited. But they were the definition of stable.

So in 2000, off the heels of the megaton explosion of awesome that Square experienced in the previous 3 years, Enix approached them to merge. But Square was hesitant, because it would require a larger share to Enix on the backs of just their one franchise, a franchise they felt they could eclipse in the coming years.

So they bickered and went back and forth as mergers do for over a year. But then the FF film released. And it tanked. It was the product of Sakaguchi, who called the shots on nearly every facet of concept development at Square, and Suzuki, the old-school business man who ran the money and left all the smaller crap to his second-in-command, a man named Yoichi Wada.

Suzuki and Sakaguchi were the brains behind Square of the 90's. Sakaguchi thought a change to Nomura's art style suited a new generation of consoles, Suzuki envisioned the necessity of the CD, they both created the concept of having two concurrent teams making FF games at the same time, etc. And they both envisioned a massive CG development studio in Hawaii that would revolutionize games and simultaneously be able to create films as well...

So naturally they both caught shit for that. Now while the Suzuki/Sakaguchi plan was for the huge dev studio to recoup costs over time, even they overestimated, to their fault. The board of Square began to panic at the notion of recouping the entirety of the costs immediately, and it was perpetuated by the constantly reported losses of the film. Upon the film failure, the board naturally told Suzuki to shape up, increased Wada's role, and essentially lost all faith in Sakaguchi. This was the beginning of the end of Square, and it's name was Yoichi.

Wada thus moved in and took on a much larger role, relegating Suzuki to having to go along with his vision of a massive developer/publisher that relies on its tentpole franchises. Development costs were streamlined (read: cut), projects were cancelled. Suzuki, and more so, Sakaguchi, hated this idea, and hated the development reforms Wada implemented to make it happen. But when Enix started getting gun shy about the merger, it was all Wada needed to convince the board that Suzuki's model was a disaster, and his was the future. Suzuki's last true contribution to Square was finalizing the Sony stock purchase, a testament to the relationship Suzuki built with Sony over the years.

Wada also hated Sakaguchi, and feared he would make a decision that would screw him over like he perceived the FF film did to Suzuki. So he essentially boxed him out, relegated his role in FFXII to almost nothing, and continued with his plan to cancel a bunch of non mainline franchise projects. It left Sakaguchi with no choice but to leave as he was essentially no longer a part of the company. So he did.

Square and Enix merged, and Wada's vision was now super strengthened with DQ on board. What else do we need?! The idiot. Suzuki was relegated further to 'special director' after the merger, then fully resigned two years later. SE was Wada's now, and the rest is history behind the workings of who I believe to be the most incompetent, unprepared and short-sighted company head this industry has ever seen.

 

[ULTROS!]

OF COURSE! SUCH IS THE GREATNESS THAT IS GILGAMESH!

ultros will always be greater than girugamesh.

lovable too

 

[Mandoric]

So you guys are claiming that nobody likes FF10-2, Crystal Chronicles, DQ8, KH2, KH Chain of Memories, Radiata Stories, Rocket Slime, Romancing SaGa: Minstrel Song, Grandia 3, Front Mission 5, Valkyrie Profile 2, Crisis Core, Dragon Quest Swords, The Last Remnant, The World Ends with You, DQ9, 4 Warriors of Light, Nier, and so on? Huh.

Chains of Promathia is post-merger too, isn't it?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

ultros will always be greater than girugamesh.

lovable too

Well FF doujins with Ultros are the best!!

 

[Aeana]

Chains of Promathia is post-merger too, isn't it?

Anything released after the NA release of FF11 (so everything after Zilart) is.

 

[Rentahamster]

Bring back Front Mission, and all is forgiven.

 

[ULTROS!]

girugamesh can't do doujin also.

also, gigli failed at ffxii: http://youtube.com/watch?v=knmvZdyTP-c (see 0:14-0:22 for full details)

Bring back Front Mission, and all is forgiven.

 

[Meccanical]

snip

Well shit, that's informative.

 

[Rentahamster]

You're trying to give me a stroke on purpose, aren't you.

 

[Schlachtor]

Maybe a total failure for Enix.

Screw Enix!
Squaresoft was amazing during the PSOne & PS2 era!

 

[Psi]

.

Thanks for all of this, very informative. Things don't sound too promising as long as Wada is running the show.

 

[MagiusNecros]

ultros will always be greater than girugamesh.

lovable too

And then the relevation that GILGAMESH spawned Ultros following GILGAMESH'S recurring boss formula slaps you upside the tentacle.

Thanks for all of this, very informative. Things don't sound too promising as long as Wada is running the show.

Wada and his fortune teller relocating HQ is what caused Uematsu to go freelance and leave SE as well.

 

[Esura]

Thanks Drek, and this will be my last attempt to shed light on this whole subject, hopefully I'm not as ignored as before. I do not know much about games anymore, but I was OBSESSED with Square back in the day, and I followed nothing more closely a decade ago than this merger.

First off: THE MERGER DID NOT SAVE SQUARE, NOR WAS IT REQUIRED TO. Everyone in this thread thinking/saying this, stop it. You are wrong. You are not right. Stop it.

Enix had a problem. They were essentially a tiny, completely unproductive publisher except for one mega-ultimate franchise. The problem? They controlled absolutely zero part of it. DQ is Horri's, and Enix could never control how and when he made them. Thus, the expansion potential of Enix was completely limited. But they were the definition of stable.

So in 2000, off the heels of the megaton explosion of awesome that Square experienced in the previous 3 years, Enix approached them to merge. But Square was hesitant, because it would require a larger share to Enix on the backs of just their one franchise, a franchise they felt they could eclipse in the coming years.

So they bickered and went back and forth as mergers do for over a year. But then the FF film released. And it tanked. It was the product of Sakaguchi, who called the shots on nearly every facet of concept development at Square, and Suzuki, the old-school business man who ran the money and left all the smaller crap to his second-in-command, a man named Yoichi Wada.

Suzuki and Sakaguchi were the brains behind Square of the 90's. Sakaguchi thought a change to Nomura's art style suited a new generation of consoles, Suzuki envisioned the necessity of the CD, they both created the concept of having two concurrent teams making FF games at the same time, etc. And they both envisioned a massive CG development studio in Hawaii that would revolutionize games and simultaneously be able to create films as well...

So naturally they both caught shit for that. Now while the Suzuki/Sakaguchi plan was for the huge dev studio to recoup costs over time, even they overestimated, to their fault. The board of Square began to panic at the notion of recouping the entirety of the costs immediately, and it was perpetuated by the constantly reported losses of the film. Upon the film failure, the board naturally told Suzuki to shape up, increased Wada's role, and essentially lost all faith in Sakaguchi. This was the beginning of the end of Square, and it's name was Yoichi.

Wada thus moved in and took on a much larger role, relegating Suzuki to having to go along with his vision of a massive developer/publisher that relies on its tentpole franchises. Development costs were streamlined (read: cut), projects were cancelled. Suzuki, and more so, Sakaguchi, hated this idea, and hated the development reforms Wada implemented to make it happen. But when Enix started getting gun shy about the merger, it was all Wada needed to convince the board that Suzuki's model was a disaster, and his was the future. Suzuki's last true contribution to Square was finalizing the Sony stock purchase, a testament to the relationship Suzuki built with Sony over the years.

Wada also hated Sakaguchi, and feared he would make a decision that would screw him over like he perceived the FF film did to Suzuki. So he essentially boxed him out, relegated his role in FFXII to almost nothing, and continued with his plan to cancel a bunch of non mainline franchise projects. It left Sakaguchi with no choice but to leave as he was essentially no longer a part of the company. So he did.

Square and Enix merged, and Wada's vision was now super strengthened with DQ on board. What else do we need?! The idiot. Suzuki was relegated further to 'special director' after the merger, then fully resigned two years later. SE was Wada's now, and the rest is history behind the workings of who I believe to be the most incompetent, unprepared and short-sighted company head this industry has ever seen.

This was interesting, if it's actually true, but I have no reason not to believe it. I didn't know some of the stuff that's happened in the background.

Now I have a question. You think Sakaguchi's and Suzuki's plan would've gotten Squaresoft out of the shitter?

 

[MagiusNecros]

This was interesting, if it's actually true, but I have no reason not to believe it. I didn't know some of the stuff that's happened in the background.

Now I have a question. You think Sakaguchi's and Suzuki's plan would've gotten Squaresoft out of the shitter?

The answer is always "it depends".

If Suzuki and Sakaguchi were the main driving force behind Squaresoft quality then I am inclined to say yes. Every company is bound to fuck up at least once, it's what you do to fix it that matters.

 

[Psi]

Wada and his fortune teller relocating HQ is what caused Uematsu to go freelance and leave SE as well.

Oh man I had forgotten about that one. Yeah I don't even really know what to think about it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Oh man I had forgotten about that one. Yeah I don't even really know what to think about it.

And the fact Wada had that policy on limiting creativity to only making products that are "sure to sell".

So the lack of new IP's is quite clear.

 

[H_Prestige]

Thanks Drek, and this will be my last attempt to shed light on this whole subject, hopefully I'm not as ignored as before. I do not know much about games anymore, but I was OBSESSED with Square back in the day, and I followed nothing more closely a decade ago than this merger.

First off: THE MERGER DID NOT SAVE SQUARE, NOR WAS IT REQUIRED TO. Everyone in this thread thinking/saying this, stop it. You are wrong. You are not right. Stop it.

Enix had a problem. They were essentially a tiny, completely unproductive publisher except for one mega-ultimate franchise. The problem? They controlled absolutely zero part of it. DQ is Horri's, and Enix could never control how and when he made them. Thus, the expansion potential of Enix was completely limited. But they were the definition of stable.

So in 2000, off the heels of the megaton explosion of awesome that Square experienced in the previous 3 years, Enix approached them to merge. But Square was hesitant, because it would require a larger share to Enix on the backs of just their one franchise, a franchise they felt they could eclipse in the coming years.

So they bickered and went back and forth as mergers do for over a year. But then the FF film released. And it tanked. It was the product of Sakaguchi, who called the shots on nearly every facet of concept development at Square, and Suzuki, the old-school business man who ran the money and left all the smaller crap to his second-in-command, a man named Yoichi Wada.

Suzuki and Sakaguchi were the brains behind Square of the 90's. Sakaguchi thought a change to Nomura's art style suited a new generation of consoles, Suzuki envisioned the necessity of the CD, they both created the concept of having two concurrent teams making FF games at the same time, etc. And they both envisioned a massive CG development studio in Hawaii that would revolutionize games and simultaneously be able to create films as well...

So naturally they both caught shit for that. Now while the Suzuki/Sakaguchi plan was for the huge dev studio to recoup costs over time, even they overestimated, to their fault. The board of Square began to panic at the notion of recouping the entirety of the costs immediately, and it was perpetuated by the constantly reported losses of the film. Upon the film failure, the board naturally told Suzuki to shape up, increased Wada's role, and essentially lost all faith in Sakaguchi. This was the beginning of the end of Square, and it's name was Yoichi.

Wada thus moved in and took on a much larger role, relegating Suzuki to having to go along with his vision of a massive developer/publisher that relies on its tentpole franchises. Development costs were streamlined (read: cut), projects were cancelled. Suzuki, and more so, Sakaguchi, hated this idea, and hated the development reforms Wada implemented to make it happen. But when Enix started getting gun shy about the merger, it was all Wada needed to convince the board that Suzuki's model was a disaster, and his was the future. Suzuki's last true contribution to Square was finalizing the Sony stock purchase, a testament to the relationship Suzuki built with Sony over the years.

Wada also hated Sakaguchi, and feared he would make a decision that would screw him over like he perceived the FF film did to Suzuki. So he essentially boxed him out, relegated his role in FFXII to almost nothing, and continued with his plan to cancel a bunch of non mainline franchise projects. It left Sakaguchi with no choice but to leave as he was essentially no longer a part of the company. So he did.

Square and Enix merged, and Wada's vision was now super strengthened with DQ on board. What else do we need?! The idiot. Suzuki was relegated further to 'special director' after the merger, then fully resigned two years later. SE was Wada's now, and the rest is history behind the workings of who I believe to be the most incompetent, unprepared and short-sighted company head this industry has ever seen.

Very interesting. Thanks.

 

[Victrix]

I think it's depressing just much they're riding on the strengths of what the company used to be.

It's a measure of just how powerful and influential they were before that they haven't completely folded from all this franchise whoring garbage they're churning out.

FFXIV stands as the biggest single example of how screwed up their internal development is, but there are plenty of others.

At least I got FFXII and TO out of it :|

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Wada also hated Sakaguchi, and feared he would make a decision that would screw him over like he perceived the FF film did to Suzuki. So he essentially boxed him out, relegated his role in FFXII to almost nothing, and continued with his plan to cancel a bunch of non mainline franchise projects. It left Sakaguchi with no choice but to leave as he was essentially no longer a part of the company. So he did.

Is there any actual evidence for this, or is it just speculation?

 

[Meccanical]

Wada and his fortune teller relocating HQ is what caused Uematsu to go freelance and leave SE as well.

Pretty much all their most prominent composers left.

Only a matter of time before Ishimoto bounces too.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Pretty much all their most prominent composers left.

Only a matter of time before Ishimoto bounces too.

Most of em are freelance now.

Of the composers I like Uematsu,Ishimoto, and Hitoshi Sakimoto.

I hate Hamauzu so he'll likely stick with SE.

 

[Jarnet87]

Split and go back to being bitter enemies. Then team up for a real Chrono Trigger sequel.

 

[Meccanical]

Most of em are freelance now.

Of the composers I like Uematsu,Ishimoto, and Hitoshi Sakimoto.

I hate Hamauzu so he'll likely stick with SE.

Actually Hamauzu went freelance immediately after XIII released.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Actually Hamauzu went freelance immediately after XIII released.

Really. At least he has sense to get out while you can.

 

[Esura]

Hamauzu is freelance? Cool.

The answer is always "it depends".

If Suzuki and Sakaguchi were the main driving force behind Squaresoft quality then I am inclined to say yes. Every company is bound to fuck up at least once, it's what you do to fix it that matters.

From the sound of it, the board didn't take to their long term plans and Wada's plan from a money making perspective did make sense.

I have this feeling that things wouldn't be that different with Square Enix if Sakaguchi and Suzuki were at the helm, hell their purchase of Eidos would've never happened probably.

 

[Rentahamster]

FFXIV stands as the biggest single example of how screwed up their internal development is, but there are plenty of others.

But your time spent with me will inspire you for all the rest of your joyful days on this Earth.

 

[Aeana]

I hate Hamauzu

This thread is now about how insane MagiusNecros is.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I just need a English Lord of Vermilion series and a GILGAMESH game and then I can let Square rot and decay.

This thread is now about how insane MagiusNecros is.

I am the GILGAMESH FAN KING. The sane may fear for their own.

 

[Yottamole]

Enix had a problem. They were essentially a tiny, completely unproductive publisher except for one mega-ultimate franchise. The problem? They controlled absolutely zero part of it. DQ is Horri's, and Enix could never control how and when he made them. Thus, the expansion potential of Enix was completely limited. But they were the definition of stable.

Eh, Horii was a director at Enix before the merger, and Enix had an internal group of producers just for the Dragon Quest franchise.

Enix was also a more diverse company than Square because it had a semi-successful book-publishing division in Japan and produced toys and action figures, which contributed to its stable earnings.