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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

jakonovski

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Feb 11, 2008
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Truespeed said:
It's interesting that you bring that up because looking at Dan Greenawalt’s Linked In profile brings up some interesting results. How does a B.A in fundamentalist Religion make you a physics master?
I'm sure he has a team of professionals telling him how things work. What do you have? Since you're so big into education, what's yours?
 

Doc Evils

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May 3, 2007
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Truespeed said:
It's interesting that you bring that up because looking at Dan Greenawalt’s Linked In profile brings up some interesting results. How does a B.A in fundamentalist Religion make you a physics master?

He was a game tester before making Forza?:lol
 

Recoil

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Apr 11, 2007
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Truespeed said:
Does anyone else find it odd why a 720p game that runs at 60 FPS needs to call their physics engine 6 times per frame? Wouldn't it be more logical to just call it once per frame? I really don't see the point of the extra 5 calls (or should I say 5 Hz) because they seem to be irrelevant.
Great. So now it's revealed you're bashing it without even a basic understanding of how or why it works.


Alright, giggles aside, think of it this way:

First, you have to realize that the two are asynchronous. The physics engine isn't working on the same six numbers in the background for every frame.

The simulation is actually running at 360hz -- the car is moving inside of the console, at 360hz inch by inch -- and we're only updating the graphics when we need to, at the limit of the television -- 60hz.

Why is that important?

Well, consider a bumpy track, such as Le Sarthe or Sebring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73MvmT5C-ik

Now, remember that computation physics is all about sampling. It's not continuous, we're really just measuring what's going on with the car "every so often" (where "every so often" inside of a computer actually means dozens, hundred, or even thousands of times a second) and applying the forces to it, to get ready for the next measurement.

Let's go back to the track -- 135 miles per hour is about the mark where you're doing 60 metres per second. Meaning that if you're going at that speed, a 60hz (60 times a second) physics simulation will only be measuring the road surface at a resolution of 1 meter.

So what happens if you have a bump that's one foot across?

Let's say it's a speed bump. See what's going on here? At 60hz, your simulation might skip right over it. The game will see smooth road on the first frame, move one meter ahead, and see smooth road on the next frame. But it's completely missed the bump that was there in between the two measurements.

That's why they run at 360hz. In effect, it's a problem of resolution. 360hz means you can scan the ground for track variations at a much higher resolution -- at the aforementioned 135 miles per hour, that means every 10 inches, rather than a full meter. That means you can catch all the subtle small bumps and groove of a complicated surface like Sebring or La Sarthe.

It doesn't matter as much on a completely smooth track, such as Suzuka. But on other tracks, it can be like night and day.

And that, in a nutshell, is why a high simulation rate is important.
 

Truespeed

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jakonovski said:
I'm sure he has a team of professionals telling him how things work. What do you have? Since you're so big into education, what's yours?
Well, I was going to pursue a B.A in Religion because of my love of physics, but I ended up with a B.Sc. And you?
 
Jun 26, 2006
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At this point in the thread I don't know which is more funny. The truly pathetic lengths the Forza haters have resorted to, or the fact people keep responding to them in a serious manner...
 

Doc Evils

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Info about KY Issun23 posted in the GT5 thread:

Growing up in the city of Kashiwa, in Chiba prefecture, Kazunori was a model school boy, who dreamt of becoming an astronaut. His interests in movies expanded at Junior High School, as he established a movie production group, making one film a year. As Kazunori proceeded to High School, he explains that he was no longer the “cream of the crop”. In his years at University School, Kazunori built his skills in graphic expressions participating in part time jobs preparing presentation materials for car manufacturers. Changes and advancements to lifestyle and technology provided Kazunori, a physics major at his university, the opportunity to maximize and utilize his skills.

From the previously released games Kazunori was involved with, one can clearly see that he is a great fan of cars and motorsports. He recalls his interest in cars as far back as kindergarten. Kazunori is actually a slow starter in terms of real driving, as he decided to pay for all fees from obtaining a license to buying his own car.

Kazunori’s other interest is movies; Hollywood movies in particular. At one point, he wished he could create a movie like Star Wars. Kazunori adds that Japan’s gaming industry is something like Hollywood in the movies industry, only the environment for creators is still far behind where Hollywood is now, and hope to be part of the generation who brings the game industry up to level with that of Hollywood’s movie industry.


That's Kaz.:lol
 

Truespeed

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May 6, 2007
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Recoil said:
Great. So now it's revealed you're bashing it without even a basic understanding of how or why it works.


Alright, giggles aside, think of it this way:

First, you have to realize that the two are asynchronous. The physics engine isn't working on the same six numbers in the background for every frame.

The simulation is actually running at 360hz -- the car is moving inside of the console, at 360hz, and we're only updating the graphics when we need to, at the limit of the television -- 60hz.

Why is that important?

Well, consider a bumpy track, such as Le Sarthe or Sebring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73MvmT5C-ik

Now, remember that computation physics is all about sampling. It's not continuous, we're really just measuring what's going on with the car "every so often" (where "every so often" actually means hundreds of times a second) and applying the forces to it, to get ready for the next measurement.

135 miles per hour is about the mark where you're doing 60 metres per second. Meaning that a 60hz (60 times a second) physics simulation will only be measuring the road at a resolution of 1 metre.

So what happens if you have a bump that's one foot across?

Let's say it's a speed bump. About a foot in length. See what's going on here? At 60hz, your simulation might skip right over it. The game will see smooth road on the first frame, move one metre ahead, and see smooth road on the next frame. It's completely missed the bump that was there in between the two measurements.

That's why they run at 360hz. In effect, it's a problem of resolution. 360hz means you can scan the ground for track variations at a much higher resolution -- at the aforementioned 135 miles per hour, that means every 10 inches, rather than a full meter. That means you can catch all the subtle small bumps and groove of a complicated surface like Sebring or La Sarthe.

It doesn't matter as much on a completely smooth track, such as Suzuka. But on other tracks, it can be like night and day.

And that, in a nutshell, is why a high simulation rate is important.
Thanks for the explanation. I'm just curious as to why the Forza 3 physics engine takes 16 ms per frame to run. Wouldn't this have an adverse affect on game performance when you need to crank out 1 frame every 16ms?
 

theignoramus

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I dont think our little war should be taken to the personal background of Yamauchi and Greenawalt. Focus on what matters.
 

ShogunX

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theignoramus said:
I dont think our little war should be taken to the personal background of Yamauchi and Greenawalt. Focus on what matters.
The problem with that is that everybody seems to have a different interpretation of what actually matters. For some it seems graphics and minor details such as tail lights are what truly defines a racing game. For others its about arguing about physics and how unrealistic the damage model and collisions are.

For me personally what matter's is that in less that two weeks time I can get my hands on the full retail release of Forza 3 warts and all. Sadly the same cant be said about Gran Turismo.
 

eso76

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Interfectum said:
i don't get what's funny about this. All game designers start their career as testers these days.

i believe Kazunori Yamauchi was a tester for sony imagesoft when Skyblazer was released.
 

Joates

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Jan 1, 2005
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Truespeed said:
Thanks for the explanation. I'm just curious as to why the Forza 3 physics engine takes 16 ms per frame to run. Wouldn't this have an adverse affect on game performance when you need to crank out 1 frame every 16ms?

Yeah, it would, assuming the 360 were not powerful enough to do it. Considering the console does do this, you should stop now.

Also, arent two entirely different parts of the 360 performing these tasks concurrently (CPU and GPU). Good try on your attempt at bashing there champ.
 

Jack B

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AnIco said:
Lucas Ordoñez isn't just some random monkey who succeeded where an infinite number of monkeys failed before, specifically, he is where he is today by winning a GT5P competition.
Given the nature of this thread I figured someone wouldn't understand my post and take the famous monkey analogy as an insult. I used the monkey analogy specifically for that reason. People need to actually read these posts and stop making knee jerk reactions based upon emotion.

Read it again. I'll put it in layman terms. A bigger pool of drivers increases the likelyhood that the top drivers will be very good. The human on planet earth with the most potential to be a top race car driver or water polo player may have never tried either sport, because race car driving and water polo aren't offered to most kids as options for sports.

Thus, with such a massive user base such as Gran Turismo or now Forza, you're much more likely going to find quality drivers at the very top, but it doesn't answer the question of who has better physics. If a new sim came out tomorrow with better physics than Gran Turismo what difference would Lucas Ordonez achievements make? If Massa grew up playing Mario Kart does that prove it has the best physics?

Dale Earnhardt Jr and more than 15 other current NASCAR Sprint Cup drivers have driven in iRacing. There are tons of road racers too. Just because Justin Wilson or Marcus Ambrose swears by iRacing does that prove it's better than Gran Turismo or Forza???

According to fanboys it would, but who has the better physics is a complex discussion better not left to fanboys. Except in this thread on Neogaf. There are other forums on other sim racing sites and yes, even other sims besides Gran Turismo and Forza***GASP***!

What Lucas Ordoñez or any other driver of any other sim has done, doesn't prove which sim has the better physics. Otherwise Mario Kart might be the sim with the best physics. :D
 

Andronicus

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Apr 9, 2007
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i need to ask this Question what the fuck does previous Schooling have to do with what the person is doing now???

there are many people who have gone to school for things other than what actually becomes their career...i don't see how this is an issue.
 

Truespeed

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Joates said:
Yeah, it would, assuming the 360 were not powerful enough to do it. Considering the console does do this, you should stop now.

Also, arent two entirely different parts of the 360 performing these tasks concurrently (CPU and GPU). Good try on your attempt at bashing there champ.
Well, since you seem to be in the know, champ. The Xenon has 3 cores and 6 threads. Does the physics engine run exclusively on it's own thread or do they dedicate a core to it?
 

jakonovski

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Truespeed said:
Well, I was going to pursue a B.A in Religion because of my love of physics, but I ended up with a B.Sc. And you?
Going by how everything needs to be explained to you, it didn't include physics. So maybe you should refrain from criticizing others.
 

Truespeed

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jakonovski said:
Going by how everything needs to be explained to you, it didn't include physics. So maybe you should refrain from criticizing others.
Given your lack of content, you should refrain from posting until you have more material.
 

Jack B

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Jan 13, 2007
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Truespeed said:
Does anyone else find it odd why a 720p game that runs at 60 FPS needs to call their physics engine 6 times per frame?
No, just the people who spend time worrying about the accuracy of a tail light or how many polygons are in a car model.

If you spent a bit more time thinking about car physics and how many bumps and road surface changes a car can travel over in 1 second you wouldn't ask that question.

Go back and do some math. Here's your question. How far does a car travel in 1 second traveling at 200mph? You're on the clock.

Then ask yourself how many bumps, potholes, camber, elevation or banking changes can occur in that distance covered in one second's time. Once, you've done that you won't be so confused. And you'll probably wonder why the road surface isn't sampled more than 6 times per second.
 

dejay

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Mar 27, 2007
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eso76 said:
i don't get what's funny about this. All game designers start their career as testers these days.

i believe Kazunori Yamauchi was a tester for sony imagesoft when Skyblazer was released.
Why would you even question Infectedrectum's repsonses. It's obvious by his post history that he spends most of his loser life in this thread fighting the good fight and bashing FM3 any chance he gets. The guy is a grade A tool and people arguing against his points are wasting their time.

As the saying goes, if you argue with a fool pretty soon you start to look like one.
 

jakonovski

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Feb 11, 2008
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Truespeed said:
Given your lack of content, you should refrain from posting until you have more material.
I was gonna get all lecture-y, but then others did the job for me. That's good if you're lazy like me. Consider it this way: do you really think GT5 will have a physics model with a resolution that's so low that it will miss potholes and rumble strips in high speed situations? Not in a million years, that didn't even happen in GT4. So instead of a fairly meaningless frequency number, you should be interested in what the console is actually able to process in that time. That bump, does it simply make the controller rumble or does it call for a pre-canned effect, or more likely what kind of data does it use to create an effect? All very interesting, wouldn't you agree?
 

cakefoo

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Later that day, Physics Boy sold his calculation to Kaz in exchange for internet meme fame as Translator Guy, because it would give him more public speaking opportunities.
 

AnIco

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Jack B said:
Given the nature of this thread I figured someone wouldn't understand my post and take the famous monkey analogy as an insult. I used the monkey analogy specifically for that reason. People need to actually read these posts and stop making knee jerk reactions based upon emotion.
Specifically for what reason? Navigating through your poorly constructed posts is no trivial matter. If you want people to understand the utter profundity contained within them then I suggest that you make them properly coherent.
The human on planet earth with the most potential to be a top race car driver or water polo player may have never tried either sport, because race car driving and water polo aren't offered to most kids as options for sports.
Are you related to Captain Obvious?
Thus, with such a massive user base such as Gran Turismo or now Forza, you're much more likely going to find quality drivers at the very top, but it doesn't answer the question of who has better physics. If a new sim came out tomorrow with better physics than Gran Turismo what difference would Lucas Ordonez achievements make? If Massa grew up playing Mario Kart does that prove it has the best physics?
Wow. Don't be so absurd. Again, Ordoñez won a GT5P competition with the prize being a job as a professional racing driver. The first hurdle in the competition was to post a top 20 time on PSN. To humour your farcical reference to Mario Kart: imagine a hypothetical competition with Mario Kart, bearing in mind the very large pool of players of said game, and the prize was to be a professional racing driver if you got a top 20 time, then I'm saying now that such a winner wouldn't be world class success, but would be a total failure on the professional circuit.
What Lucas Ordoñez or any other driver of any other sim has done, doesn't prove which sim has the better physics. Otherwise Mario Kart might be the sim with the best physics. :D
I didn't claim that GT5P had the best physics. I only remarked upon it because of the ridiculous epithets ascribed to GT5P's physics such as poor, inferior, terrible, unrealistic, etc. I do, however, contrary to the fanboy memes, claim that GT5P's driving physics are truly superb.
 

RSTEIN

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Mar 22, 2007
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Hey, guys. The insidesimracing.tv review is up here. Draw your own conclusions. As former PC elitists, they are pretty floored. I say this not only to tip my hat to Turn 10 but also to all console devs and series out there pushing the genre (T10, Polyphony, Shift, Motorstorm, Dirt, etc.). We're clearly in the golden age of console racing. As the reviewers say, they never intended to allow console games on the show. Now they cannot be ignored.
 

blu

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May 4, 2007
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Fender_Uk said:
yea console games are finally catching up in realistic physics, not quite there yet though
just from last gen: enthusia could stand up against most pc sims of that period.

then, for totally realistic racing AI: toca3, across a bunch of consoles.

heck, even early on last gen le man24 on the dc had amazing MR-drivetrain-, LMP-only sim model, with dynamic weather and day-time simulation.

so yeah, pc elitists just discovered consoles had good sims too. more news at 11.
 

jakonovski

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Feb 11, 2008
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Oh man, I just noticed from the InsideSimRacing review that the entire steering wheel of Citroën C4 spins in Forza 3. That's a bit embarrassing since one of the big things about the car was that the steering wheel hub is fixed in place and does not spin.

Did they catch that in GT5P?
 

Recoil

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I have to assume they did, the one thing I give the GT5 crew is that they are meticulous about modeling all the cars, down to every last square inch.
 

AnIco

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jakonovski said:
Oh man, I just noticed from the InsideSimRacing review that the entire steering wheel of Citroën C4 spins in Forza 3. That's a bit embarrassing since one of the big things about the car was that the steering wheel hub is fixed in place and does not spin.

Did they catch that in GT5P?
Don't know about that particular car, but it looks like it behaves as you described.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK7rGUREDds
 

AnIco

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I seem to remember from the update changelogs that there were, perhaps, minor dash inaccuracies in about 4 cars in GT5P when it was released that were quickly fixed.
 

enzo_gt

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Jun 7, 2009
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jakonovski said:
Indeed it does. I wonder if Turn10 is going to bother fixing it. For an American it might not be a biggie, but that car is a major seller in Europe.
Don't think stuff like this and active aero is fixable via game updates and stuff.
 

agaru

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cakefoo said:


Later that day, Physics Boy sold his calculation to Kaz in exchange for internet meme fame as Translator Guy, because it would give him more public speaking opportunities.
:lol
 
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cakefoo said:


Later that day, Physics Boy sold his calculation to Kaz in exchange for internet meme fame as Translator Guy, because it would give him more public speaking opportunities.
Oh thank god someone did this properly. In the GT thread, they just shopped the older versions' faces on there. This is so much better, funnier, awesomer.

So awesome.
 

cgcg

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Looks like they recycled A LOT of assets from Forza 2. I guess that's expected. Looks pretty much like Forza 2 with a little of less jagged edges and a darker contrast.
 

dfyb

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i was curious why so many people seemed to think forza 3 looked significantly better. seemed to me like there was barely any difference -- seems my perception is more or less fine