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Forza 5: The monetization is even worse than you think.

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njr

Member
Don't like the monetization.....don't buy any of it. Why complain?

The problem with that has been discussed many pages ago. Depending on how it's done, it impacts the game design negatively. That's what people are outraged with grinding to get something they make very easy to buy, on disc in day one.
 

AlexMogil

Member
I'm trying to read between the lines of that interview and monetization aside, I read "This is a launch game and we didn't have time."
 

Xenon

Member
No, people LIKE YOU defending burdensome monetization in full priced retail games are bad for the hobby. Free to play is fine. It's been an amazing thing for small developers and for gamers in emerging markets.


Let me differentiate one thing, F2P with ads is ok. But F2P with in game transactions is the devil. Because the game is designed around getting your money. It is no longer a game to me, it's just a con to soak your cash up.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Let me differentiate one thing, F2P with ads is ok. But F2P with in game transactions is the devil. Because the game is designed around getting your money. It is no longer a game to me, it's just a con to soak your cash up.

So League of Legends is bad? The only thing you pay for is costumes and item skins. All champions are unlocked with a moderate amount of play. Yes, you can skip the grind and buy the champions, but they don't take you insane amounts of time to unlock. Not only that, they rotate in a different set of free champions each week, meaning that you always have free content to enjoy that rotates. Forza 5 can't even offer this on a $60 game.
 
Free to play is fine. It's been an amazing thing for small developers and for gamers in emerging markets.

Perhaps a topic for another thread, but I'd like to challenge this. F2P is 'monetization as game design,' specifically designing Skinner boxes to extract money from participants, with the eye towards harpooning whales, rather than making fundamentally sound games.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Perhaps a topic for another thread, but I'd like to challenge this. F2P is 'monetization as game design,' specifically designing Skinner boxes to extract money from participants, with the eye towards harpooning whales, rather than making fundamentally sound games.

Guild Wars and League of Legends would like to have a word with you. Free to play and Pay to Win are very different. Sure, you can combine P2W into F2P games, and that ruins them. Straight up F2P is fine on its own.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
This thread is hilarious, people are seriously comparing a racing series at the end of one generation to a launch title for another? I get that offering up DLC cars on a game light with content on day one was a stupid thing to do. But blasting MS for the monetization of gaming is factually wrong. Anyone who has ever payed for content in a F2P game or given money in a P2P game, has no right to bitch about the current state we're in. You are the problem. That is where this shit began, and that's why it's seeping into the standard console model. Companies like making money and it's there to be made with P2W.

But here we are again in another bash MS thread where people completely exaggerate and vilify MS. I am looking at you NullPointer. They took away your "right" to used games, they are going to spy on us in our homes, then they gave us less resolution, now they are ruining gaming with monetization! Meanwhile the PS4 is praised for all the F2P content, L O fucking L.

Sure the 10 car DLC thing was a slap in the face. If I was in the market for a racer I might not buy it on principle. But I do think the work they put into the game is evident and you do get your 60 dollars worth out of it. Drawing the lawn for monetization now and with Forza is stupid.

This is by far the most idiotic stance I've seen in a long time. So those people who love Forza and have never played a F2P game are at fault and not....you know...the creators of the game?

Who made the conscious effort to add F2P pricing into a $60 retail game? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the consumer. Get the fuck out of here with this corporate apologist bullshit, it's infuriating. F2P games need a pricing model, that's how they make money. But oh no, dur dur everyones dumb for buying F2P content and we deserve everthing that comes to us. It's our fault that companies can't help but want more of our money, and it's our duty to give it to them willingly. MS are being villified because they are taking a $60 retail game and trying to see how much shit we will put up with. The more people speak up and don't accept it, the more likely they will be to back down.
 
I agree the track count is low for a console release of a sim, but comparing it to games with imaginary tracks is silly. Heck, by comparison I would say Mario Kart should have 50 tracks by now :).

Anyway, comparing something that you can just make tracks up for...to making accurate tracks from real life that physically effect cars based on every bump that's really there is a bit unfair.

Comparing it to other Sim releases, or games in the same series from the past is fair.

Yeah, fair enough silly comparison. But as I said in my follow up post, comparing it the previous Forza games leads you to the same conclusion: low track count is low.

Throwing up the fact that games 20 years ago had fewer tracks is irrelevant, and I was citing Mariokart to show that it isn't even true! I accept the point about racing sims vs racing games though, unfair comparison.
 

Blazyr

Member
Most of the games media are scared of PR and most of the time they are participants in the PR message. In journalism if a question is not answered satisfactory or the interviewer detects deception they keep on the topic not move onto the next PR talking point.

And before people say this cannot be done in the gaming media read the bottom third of this interview http://metro.co.uk/2013/11/05/call-...-that-were-not-allowed-to-talk-about-4173810/ The interviewer does not just tickle the PRs persons balls and move on.

Microsoft and Forza developer must be called out on this practice.

Dead Monkey, there was no tickling of anyone's balls. The questions were asked by email and as I note, I felt the answers warrant a number of follow ups. Had it been a live interview I most certainly would have asked for those clarifications. I think if you listen to Weekend Confirmed you'll hear my thoughts on that.

But the other piece is that all the developers with whom large publishers allow contact have been extensively media trained. It's not unlike a Presidential debate. One can ask all the questions and follow ups one wants but the speaker will take the answer to the predetermined talking points. That is why I noted that I can ask away but only the speaker can decided what to say.

On occasion we will get better responses in things like post mortems or in cases where people move on to other positions, but in that latter case those folks are most often covered under strict non disclosure and similar provisions agreed to at the end of their employment.
 

Xenon

Member
So League of Legends is bad? The only thing you pay for is costumes and item skins. All champions are unlocked with a moderate amount of play. Yes, you can skip the grind and buy the champions, but they don't take you insane amounts of time to unlock. Not only that, they rotate in a different set of free champions each week, meaning that you always have free content to enjoy that rotates. Forza 5 can't even offer this on a $60 game.

Yeah all they offer is laser scanned tracks, painstaking captured audio, a completely new graphics engine, the ability to examine cars inside and out and all the other shit Team 10 added to Forza 5. I could easily find that in any F2P racer right... People are ignoring the work put into F5 just because the added P2W to the game.

Yes to me LoL is bad. I will never touch the game. All the free devices are there to keep you playing. Because. you can't buy things if you are not playing.
 

RS4-

Member
I have to say Leagues's is sort of comparable to Forza's. Grind or pay to unlock other champs and or higher tier cars.

Dota 2 and POE (yeah POE has third party trading, even involving real money), their transactions are purely aesthetic. Buying a sword doesn't make the game any easier. But the stores themselves don't directly influence the game making it easier.

Meanwhile, IAP dogshit that you find in mobile games are the worst. Look at Candycrush, a game that involves nearly zero skill, all luck. Ran out of lives? Pay to bypass the timer or wait 30 mins!
 

Xenon

Member
This is by far the most idiotic stance I've seen in a long time.So those people who love Forza and have never played a F2P game are at fault and not....you know...the creators of the game?

Before calling something idiotic you should at least try to read the post correctly first.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
Yeah all they offer is laser scanned tracks, painstaking captured audio, a completely new graphics engine, the ability to examine cars inside and out and all the other shit Team 10 added to Forza 5. I could easily find that in any F2P racer right... People are ignoring the work put into F5 just because the added P2W to the game.

Yes to me LoL is bad. I will never touch the game. All the free devices are there to keep you playing. Because. you can't buy things if you are not playing.

A: You are already giving them $60 for all the work they put into the game, just like ANY other retail game
B: People aren't ignoring the work put into it, they are complaining about the experience itself being changed to encourage P2W.
C: People play LoL and DOTA because they enjoy playing them, and *gasp* you don't even need to pay money for that.

Before calling something idiotic you should at least try to read the post correctly first.

I did read the post correctly, you are just generalizing and passing the blame to the faceless "consumer" who has played a F2P game in their life. To me, that is idiotic and infuriating. How about commenting on the rest of my post.
 
I haven't seen many (maybe any..is there a player or two?) people really defend it.

Most of the people here that are playing Forza 5 have ZERO interest in the Tokens and hate that ANY day-one DLC wasn't included for free. Most thought all day-one stuff would be free...it was expected based on past comments by Turn 10.

I've been after Turn 10 on their forums to give us LE buyers the 10,000 tokens we're owed based on them saying LE buyers would get enough tokens to buy any car in the game. (any single car that is)

Check out this awesome page of the thread, if you want to see some defending.

And good luck getting the 10,000 tokens. Honestly, I believe you're entitled to them, but that's like $90 to each LE buyer. I'll be impressed if they cave.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
I have to say Leagues's is sort of comparable to Forza's. Grind or pay to unlock other champs and or higher tier cars.

Except that you can unlock a champion in League after a few matches (some cost as little as 450 points, which is really easy to achieve in a night) and every champion is competent. The Forza 5 cars are objectively better on the higher tiers. The champions aren't tiered, so you can be competitive with ANY of them on ANY level.
 

RS4-

Member
Except that you can unlock a champion in League after a few matches (some cost as little as 450 points, which is really easy to achieve in a night) and every champion is competent. The Forza 5 cars are objectively better on the higher tiers. The champions aren't tiered, so you can be competitive with ANY of them on ANY level.

Oh definitely, hence the 'sort of.'

My personal thing with League is that, I can't freely choose to pick someone if they're outside of the free rotation; so I'd have to play x amount of games to finally purchase who I want to use. Sure it isn't that bad, but it's still there. I'd definitely play it more if all the champs were there day 1.
 

Warewolf

Member
Anyone who has ever payed for content in a F2P game or given money in a P2P game, has no right to bitch about the current state we're in. You are the problem.

If I was in the market for a racer I might not buy it on principle. But I do think the work they put into the game is evident and you do get your 60 dollars worth out of it.

Oh so it's the consumers fault for utilizing options given to them by developers? Well I guess that's it then, better roll over and accept it guys. /sarcasm

I always appreciate a contrary opinion. It's the only way to make discussion meaningful, but you just admitted you have no frame of reference, then proceeded to tell those who do that they've formed wrong conclusions from buying a $60 game and expecting $60 worth of value.

I'd argue you are the problem.
 

Vi3trice

Neo Member
My personal thing with League is that, I can't freely choose to pick someone if they're outside of the free rotation; so I'd have to play x amount of games to finally purchase who I want to use. Sure it isn't that bad, but it's still there. I'd definitely play it more if all the champs were there day 1.


... Like Dota 2?
 
Dead Monkey, there was no tickling of anyone's balls. The questions were asked by email and as I note, I felt the answers warrant a number of follow ups. Had it been a live interview I most certainly would have asked for those clarifications. I think if you listen to Weekend Confirmed you'll hear my thoughts on that.

But the other piece is that all the developers with whom large publishers allow contact have been extensively media trained. It's not unlike a Presidential debate. One can ask all the questions and follow ups one wants but the speaker will take the answer to the predetermined talking points. That is why I noted that I can ask away but only the speaker can decided what to say.

On occasion we will get better responses in things like post mortems or in cases where people move on to other positions, but in that latter case those folks are most often covered under strict non disclosure and similar provisions agreed to at the end of their employment.

Thanks Garnett for spending the time to reply. Reading my post back my wording was not the best, but this is a subject I feel strongly about and is one of the reasons I have decided not to buy a Xbox One. As a 360 owner since day 1, MS has done a great job of making me choose Sony this Gen.

Looking forward to Weekend Confirmed as always, we are ghost.
 

Xenon

Member
A: You are already giving them $60 for all the work they put into the game, just like ANY other game.

Yes and you get a great racer you can play that is leagues better than anything offered for F2P. You never have to pay another dime.

B: People aren't ignoring the work put into it, they are complaining about the experience itself being changed to encourage P2W.

I am saying that has everything to do with the success of the F2P and P2P model. Companies are whores and will go after the money if it's there. I do think that certain people who have been in every other MS controversy thread are doing their best to exaggerate the situation.

C: People play LoL and DOTA because they enjoy playing them, and *gasp* you don't even need to pay money for that.

Being fun doesn't change the fact that the games are designed around getting you to give them money. If you can get past that great, I can't. They are successful models of the monetization of game design that others are following.

Oh so it's the consumers fault for utilizing options given to them by developers? Well I guess that's it then, better roll over and accept it guys. /sarcasm

I always appreciate a contrary opinion. It's the only way to make discussion meaningful, but you just admitted you have no frame of reference, then proceeded to tell those who do that they've formed wrong conclusions from buying a $60 game and expecting $60 worth of value.

I'd argue you are the problem.

Considering I own 3 Forza games I beg to differ. I just don't have the time for one now. Also how does one quantify 60 dollars in value? The comparisons have been made between Forza 4 and 5 which is stupid seeing that one built on two previous games while the other has had many aspects built from the ground up.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Being fun doesn't change the fact that the games are designed around getting you to give them money. If you can get past that great, I can't. They are successful models of the monetization of game design that others are following.

All games are designed around getting money to the developers. Bottom line is that if you're charging a $60 game, you shouldn't be putting a F2P monetization model into it. That's wrong.

Dota 2 and LoL have less hidden away behind their pay walls (or super long grinds) than Forza 5, but only one of the three costs you $60 upfront and a season pass.
 
Dlc pissed me off.
Exclusive store content is awful.
This is reprehensible!


I hope you hear this loud and clear Microsoft. I'm not the average hater on gaf. I'm a long time fan but I will never look back if this is what next Gen is about.

Console gamers for the most part aren't uneducated mobile gamers. If you plan on locking loads of content after the 60 dollar barrier of entry than Im done.
 

Xenon

Member
All games are designed around getting money to the developers. Bottom line is that if you're charging a $60 game, you shouldn't be putting a F2P monetization model into it. That's wrong.

I know you know better, this is a dumb comparison. I agree they should not. But acting like MS is leading this charge is wrong.


Dota 2 and LoL have less hidden away behind their pay walls (or super long grinds) than Forza 5, but only one of the three costs you $60 upfront and a season pass.

And only one was not designed specifically for F2P and designed COMPLETELY around getting players to give them money. Forza is tainted with it, LoL is rotted with monetization to its very core.
 

Vi3trice

Neo Member
And only one was not designed specifically for F2P and designed COMPLETELY around getting players to give them money. Forza is tainted with it, Dota 2 and LoL are rotted with monetization to their very core.

What do you meant by rotted? One of the two doesn't give you the option to buy heroes, they're handed to you on a silver plate. Not a lick of a thing that would fit the definition of Pay 2 Win for it.
 

kneePat

Member
And only one was not designed specifically for F2P and designed COMPLETELY around getting players to give them money. Forza is tainted with it, Dota 2 and LoL are rotted with monetization to their very core.

How in the fuck is DOTA 2 rotted with monetization?

Check your fucking facts.
 

Xenon

Member
What do you meant by rotted? One of the two doesn't give you the option to buy heroes, they're handed to you on a silver plate. Not a lick of a thing that would fit the definition of Pay 2 Win for it.

Sorry I confused it with LoL. I forgot Value seems to be above such things.
 
More importantly, have game reviewers taken note so they can't point this shit out in the beginning and tank metacritic for this bullshit in the future.

Seeing reviews not even mentioning it is abhorrent in retrospect.

This thread is as big as the official Forza 5 thread. Do reviewers really think gamers don't care about this stuff?
 
The comparisons have been made between Forza 4 and 5 which is stupid seeing that one built on two previous games while the other has had many aspects built from the ground up.
and had progressive aspects like auction house and prize cars ripped the hell away
 
The youtube video with the angry british guy linked in this page sums up everything there´s wrong with this.

It´s a very detailed analisys of why this is bad on so many levels.

Worth watching.
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member

I'm sorry, but that's not an excuse, that's just more bait for people to buy stuff. If it would be an excuse, they would permanently change a LOT of things, not make a reduced price offer for 2 weeks. Every f2p game on this planet has scheduled X% off days and special offers, 90% of this was probably planned anyway for the next few months.

I'm not buying it, sorry. They saw they didn't sell shit, now they're reacting to that as quickly as possible. Very flimsy damage control here.

Might just be my opinion though, If people are fine with it, good for them.
 

Your Turn 10 team continues to value the input of our Forza community, and we keep a careful eye on in-game data that shows how players progress through our games. Based on the numbers we’ve seen from our first week of FM5, as well as feedback we heard directly from you, we’re in the process of making some changes to the Forza Motorsport 5 economy. But, while we’re putting the final touches on that, we want to make sure everyone continues having a great time with Forza 5. So, the following programs are going into effect this week:

1) Starting this Friday we’re offering a 50 percent discount (credits & tokens) on every car in the game. This discount is available to all players. Every car, from the 1970 Nissan Datsun 510 to the 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO will be 50 percent off, so, if you’ve got your eye on something special on the car list, now’s the time to play and add them to your garage! This discount will be available between 12:01 a.m. Pacific on Friday, Nov. 29 and 11:59 p.m. Pacific on Sunday, Dec. 1.

2) If you are a Forza Motorsport 5 VIP member, you’ll receive the 2013 Lotus E21 grand prix car as a thank you. (Note: You must own Forza Motorsport 5 VIP membership to take advantage of this offer.) In addition to being one of the most radical and expensive cars in FM5, the E21 is also one of the quickest. For more on the E21, check out its entry on the Forza Motorsport 5 Cars page. This gift may take up to 24 hours or longer to be fulfilled in the game and, in order to receive your gift, you will need to back out to the main title screen with the orange McLaren P1 and then press “A” to log back in.

3) Those players who have already purchased the 2013 Lotus E21 as of today (Wednesday, November 27) will also receive the 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO as a further thank you. This gift may take up to 24 hours or longer to be fulfilled in the game and, in order to receive your gift, you will need to back out to the main title screen with the orange McLaren P1 and then press “A” to log back in.

4) For those players who have purchased the LaFerrari Car Pack or the Forza Motorsport 5 Car Pass we’ll gift the 2013 LaFerrari directly into your Forza Motorsport 5 garage. No need to purchase the car separately with in-game credits or tokens. (Note: In order to receive and use these gift cars, you’ll need to own either the LaFerrari Car Pack or the Forza Motorsport 5 Car Pass). This gift may take up to 24 hours or longer to be fulfilled in the game and, in order to receive your gift, you will need to back out to the main title screen with the orange McLaren P1 and then press “A” to log back in.

5) Finally, we’re dramatically increasing the credit payout available to all Forza players in December via Forza Rewards, our ongoing loyalty program that rewards players with credits and cars for playing Forza games. You’ll be able to redeem these rewards in December but here’s a tip: The higher your Tier level reaches before December rolls around, the better the rewards you’ll be able to redeem, so get your play time in now and level up!

Now, a word about tokens in the Forza Motorsport 5 Limited Edition. In our original description for Forza Motorsport 5’s Limited Edition, we told you that Limited Edition owners would get 1,250 in-game tokens, which we mistakenly said would be enough tokens to afford any car in the Forza 5. It isn’t. As a result, a number of you have pointed this out to us – that there are a number of cars in the game that cost more than 1,250 tokens to purchase.

We’re sorry. In order to make up for this discrepancy, we will soon be offering Forza Motorsport 5 Limited Edition owners the chance to download and own the car of their choice in the game. Players will be able to choose from any of the on-disc cars in Forza 5 and will be able redeem this offer on ForzaMotorsport.net via a dedicated page that will be available no later than December 16.
Good to see them fixing the "buy any car" issue for LE owners.

The other stuff though? So by "changes to the economy" they mean they're having a short sale? And for the people who already have rare cars, they get more cars?

I don't get it.

I guess they see all of this attention as a small bump in the road. Just loosen up on the nobs for a few days before cranking them back up again.
 

ruttyboy

Member
Does that mean that at some point in development the highest token price for a car was 1,250 tokens, then they made the decision to put the prices up by nearly ten times?
 

PG2G

Member
Good to see them fixing the "buy any car" issue for LE owners.

The other stuff though? So by "changes to the economy" they mean they're having a short sale? And for the people who already have rare cars, they get more cars?

I don't get it.

I guess they see all of this attention as a small bump in the road. Just loosen up on the nobs for a few days before cranking them back up again.

Changes to the economy probably means bigger payout per race. But UNTIL that happens they are throwing people a bone with these temporary sales and what not.
 

Anion

Member
Good to see them fixing the "buy any car" issue for LE owners.

The other stuff though? So by "changes to the economy" they mean they're having a short sale? And for the people who already have rare cars, they get more cars?

I don't get it.

I guess they see all of this attention as a small bump in the road. Just loosen up on the nobs for a few days before cranking them back up again.

Thats good news
 
Does that mean that at some point in development the highest token price for a car was 1,250 tokens, then they made the decision to put the prices up by nearly ten times?

Could be. I honestly think that, because it's a launch game, they just thought they'd see what they could get away with.

I mean seriously, if gamers will put up with $90 purchasable vehicles in their full price retail games, why the hell not? Only one way to find out.
 

teiresias

Member
GcudUks.jpg

MS should have just let it stay up. That makes them look even worse.
 

thenexus6

Member
I like the Forza games, but I wouldn't probably get 5 if I got new Xbox for one not supporting their game pulling shit like this, but also I would feel like I was getting a incomplete game with all the cars I couldnt get
 
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