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Forza Horizon only exists because Xbox turned down a Project Gotham Racing reboot

35cent

Member
I would have much preferred to have PGR than Horizon. The tracks and races in PGR were way more fun because they had tonnes of really good street circuits. Horizon on the other hand is like playing a racing game comprised of really boring rally stages over and over again. There's a reason why I completed the single player of PGR4 twice but I only played Horizon 4 for about 20 minutes before uninstalling it and never touching it again. At least I have gamepass so I didn't have to pay for it directly.
 

lem0n

Gold Member
RIP Bizarre Creations, they did not deserve to be dissolved. I'd LOVE to see another PGR. I miss closed track street racing. And that tight, predictable handling too. Forza is a sluggish, sloppy mess with tires that don't grip properly.
 

Shmunter

Member
Big mistake. May have been a green rat if PGR was still a reality.

Sony has a big arcade hole in their lineup. Common, get a team together for a reboot of Metropolis Street Racer, photorealistic, next gen only, with full psvr2 support you frugal bastads!
 
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Three

Member
I'd argue that the defining concept behind Metropolis Street Racer (MSR) and the Project Gotham Racing (PGR) series, that being motorsport on circuit layouts exclusively in city centres, was distinct enough that the series could have prevailed.

Turn 10 and Playground Games wanted to avoid cannibalizing sales from FM and FH, but those games are different animals.

Where would you take PGR? The same place they've taken FM, FH and GT.

Further.
It's difficult to do that in today's industry. Racers tend to struggle to be unique and compete and sales aren't that much to begin with. I think part of why FM had such a long hiatus was due to FH5. It's now back not as FM8 but FM. It will be their live service track racing game. PGR along with that while awesome would have been a hard pitch.
 

sCHOCOLATE

Member
It's difficult to do that in today's industry. Racers tend to struggle to be unique and compete and sales aren't that much to begin with. I think part of why FM had such a long hiatus was due to FH5. It's now back not as FM8 but FM. It will be their live service track racing game. PGR along with that while awesome would have been a hard pitch.
If "...Racers tend to struggle to be unique...", which they do, and if MSR/PGR offered real-world environments at a level unseen in other series (such that players could instantly recognize, claim to reside there or have actually "stood at that spot"), then I might claim the Gotham series still had a distinct place among the other titles.

I've visited Japan and walked through the Yokohama Bay area. The Yokohama rendered in PGR2 is painfully accurate for a racing game developed in 2003.
I've visited Tsukuba Circuit in Ibaraki and Mobility Resort Motegi (better known as Twin Ring Motegi). Both circuits have been rendered to near perfection in iterations of FM and GT.
And, as a Canadian, I've frequented Quebec City. PGR4 presented QC exceedingly well, minus the potholes.

Who among us remembers the bridges and skylines in PGR4's NYC, or the confined network of roads and tunnels in PGR2's Chicago?

The most recent versions of FH have provided key geographic features of their real-world counterparts, but many liberties were taken to emphasize playability.

What made MSR and PGR unique was the adherence to the concept. The circuit layouts were constrained to the streets found in the real cities.
The cities were the "celebrities" of the series.

At this point, what differentiates FM from GT? The debates are largely regarding technical features: framerates, shaders, lighting, ray tracing "on-track" :messenger_dizzy:.
Content for each series has reached, or is fast approaching, parity. Yes, there are bespoke tracks and cars that only feature in one series or the other.
But ultimately, what makes an FM more or less unique than a GT, beyond exclusivity to a platform?

What differentiates FH from Atari's Test Drive: Unlimited?
Burnout Paradise? Driver? Midnight Club?

For my money, MSR/PGR was unique in that Bizarre Creations had a concept that worked.
Not by offering cutting-edge simulation. Not by offering massive driving environments with Assassin's Creed levels of fetch quests.
But by offering accessible, fast-paced motoring through accurately rendered urban centres.
The way (m)any of us have dreamed of doing, but can't without surrendering our driving privileges.
The series simply scratched an itch that other games didn't.

Having played FH, FH2 and FH3, I still return to my copies of PGR2 and PGR4 for that driving pleasure I can't get elsewhere.

That Greenwalt et al chose not to back PGR isn't evidence it couldn't work or be profitable.

Could the concept and series have survived longer than it did? I believe so.
 
RIP Bizarre Creations, they did not deserve to be dissolved. I'd LOVE to see another PGR. I miss closed track street racing. And that tight, predictable handling too. Forza is a sluggish, sloppy mess with tires that don't grip properly.
Bizarre Creations made a deal with the devil (Activision) and they paid the price for doing so. Unfortunately their demise was completely self-inflicted.
 

taylor34

Neo Member
PGR2 could be my favorite racing game ever. Then they kind of screwed up 3 and 4. PGR2 was very focused with timing against your friends, the cone challenges, being able to download ghost cars, etc. Anymore there's so much stuff in horizon, later pgr's that the times became irrelevant unfortunately. I would just settle for a PGR2 remaster onto the current xbox, that would be enough to get me excited.
 

Three

Member
At this point, what differentiates FM from GT? The debates are largely regarding technical features: framerates, shaders, lighting, ray tracing "on-track" :messenger_dizzy:.
Content for each series has reached, or is fast approaching, parity. Yes, there are bespoke tracks and cars that only feature in one series or the other.
But ultimately, what makes an FM more or less unique than a GT, beyond exclusivity to a platform?
You're right that little differentiates FM from GT but keep in mind that FM was greenlit because xbox didn't have GT and didn't have any simcade racer at all on the platform when it was conceptualised by MS.
 

sainraja

Member
Big mistake. May have been a green rat if PGR was still a reality.

Sony has a big arcade hole in their lineup. Common, get a team together for a reboot of Metropolis Street Racer, photorealistic, next gen only, with full psvr2 support you frugal bastads!
For me, Horizon still isn't the full arcade racing game I'd want it to be!
 

Stuart360

Member
Quite liked PGR3 and 4 (especially 3), but Horizon is a much better series. I think a few people have nostalgia goggles on to be honest.
I think if i never have to play another 'Cone Challenge' it will be too soon lol.
 
I like Motorsport a lot, but I could puke all over Horizon. Sad we won't see another PGR, they were great.

Edit: Played PGR2 just a couple days ago. Still is great.
 
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Markio128

Member
Forza Horizon is a superior franchise to PGR all day every day. Smart decision.
I personally think that FH is a better casual racer, however, PGR was a better hardcore racer. The challenges in PGR were so brilliantly designed and must have been play tested to the nth degree. PGR was not a game for the casual crowd, which I guess was its ultimate downfall. Shame really, because I’d be absolutely buzzing for a new PGR as open-world racing doesn’t appear to be my jam.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
That kinda sucks, PGR was better than Forza Horizon in my opinion.
The PGR reboot would literally be Forza Horizon.
It was just a title change, the game they were making was effectively still Forza Horizon just named PGR
 

zcaa0g

Member
Definitely. Like you said there isn't much like it on the market outside of something like a Mario Kart. Burnout's dead. Test Drive's dead. Midnight Club's dead. Ridge Racer's dead. Outrun's dead. Maybe one of those will come back, but a futuristic racer like F-Zero or Wipeout but open-world, a full-on story mode, massive multiplayer events in Forzatech engine would've been something amazing and fresh for the market.

Missed opportunity but hey, maybe they can try it after they work on Fable (which I hope turns out well itself).

Test Drive isn't dead.
 

sCHOCOLATE

Member
Quite liked PGR3 and 4 (especially 3), but Horizon is a much better series. I think a few people have nostalgia goggles on to be honest.
I think if i never have to play another 'Cone Challenge' it will be too soon lol.
I would take PGR Cone Challenges (perhaps not Platinum level, I'm no masochist) over FM4's questionable Track Days.

Who implements a mode called "Track Days" where NPC cars are incapable of yielding to faster moving traffic (effectively making them mobile bollards)?
They just follow the race line, oblivious to whatever approaches from behind.

I've driven ADS/HPDE/Track Days in reality. I've watched countless YT videos of Touristfarten at Nurburgring.
At the Ring, slower traffic yields to faster traffic by moving off the race line where safe to do so (and sometimes not so safe).

Turn10 should have labeled the mode Traffic Dodge.
If they couldn't get it right, they should have stuck with cones.

DISCLOSURE: I have FM 1 through 7 (not including 5), FH 1 through 3, PGR2 through PGR4, TDU, Redout, Daytona USA, GRID, Burnout Paradise, Blur, TOCA2, RSC2, CMR04 and also GT6 in my library. I had Midtown Madness 3 at one point, but it was lost to gremlins...
 

sainraja

Member
Quite liked PGR3 and 4 (especially 3), but Horizon is a much better series. I think a few people have nostalgia goggles on to be honest.
I think if i never have to play another 'Cone Challenge' it will be too soon lol.
I mean, that kinda doesn't make sense; what I am trying to say is...had they not continued with Horizon, and had gotten the opportunity to continue PGR, that PGR would be what we know now as Horizon or the modern version of PGR.
 
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Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Yeah I don't blame them but I wouldn't say no to a remake or a launch via BC cause I don't want to be racing around Wolverhampton in PGRR5.
 

Fox Mulder

Member
That kinda sucks, PGR was better than Forza Horizon in my opinion.

PGR is just a different kind of track racer and had 4 versions to get a fanbase. The Forza Horizon open world formula had way more room to grab new players and probably exploded bigger than the main Motorsports series.
 
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Shmunter

Member
Let’s not forget the crack that was Geometry Wars on 360. Taunting you with your friends leaderboard front and centre.
 
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