• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Forza Motorsport Serie is in Decline this Generation. Can it Make a Resurgence?

ethomaz

Banned
It was a topic exposed in the other thread about racing games and after I start to do research I found some interesting points about the series that focus more in the sim racing than arcade (the opposite of the Forza Horizon series that focus in arcade and found a big success into the Xbox userbase).

MS released 3 games in the series this generation so let's start first with the data available about their debut:

Forza Motorsport 5 Debut
MS claimed FM5 to be the fastest-selling racing game in Xbox history.
The game was launched in 22nd November and by MS words in February 18th the game sold to more than one third of the Xbox owners.
MS sold 3.9 million of Xbox One consoles as of December 31.
What that means?
At least 1.3 million copies of FM5 was sold in near 3 months.

Forza Motorsport 6 Debut
With FM6 MS was more directly saying it sold over 1 million units as of Jan 4.
The game launched in September 15th.
What that means?
Over 1 million copies of FM6 was sold in near 4 months.

Forza Motorsport 7 Debut
MS give no data about FM7 sales... they basically only talks about Forza Horizon now.

These are MS PR data but what about others trackers:

GTPlanet claims that "FM5 sold over 2 million lifetime"

GFK talked about FM7 Debut in UK.
GFK UK claimed "Forza Motorsport 7 physical sales down slightly on Forza 6"

What about NPD?

They give us a updated racking list of the best selling Xbox games as of end of August 2019.
In that ranking FM5 include only Xbox Sales (digital and physical).
FM6 and FM7 include Xbox and PC sales (digital and physical).



It shows that even after 2 years FM7 did not manage to catch with FM6 in US... FM5 still continue being the best-selling game by NPD.

Some will say but these are only US data.
Well it is but over 70% of Xbox sales come from US and UK... so the changes to the rest of the world change the situation is pretty much near 0.
We have some Japan data but I choose to ignore them because it is level that can't change anything.

What is the reason for the Decline?

I take some time to think about what happened with the series and I reached two imo reasons to what is happening with Forza Motorsport series:

  • Fatigue. The series is released each two years this gen (2013, 2015 and 2017) and it is a small period between them making the consumers buy one and not the sequels.
  • Forza Horizon series rise. It is indiscutile that Forza Horizon become one of the best selling games from Microsoft and reached a size and success that they never saw with Forza Motorsport and that probably helped to make gamers buy less and less the Forza Motorsport releases.
Are there more reason? I don't know.

Conclusion

I opened the thread to discuss why that decline for the Forza Motorsport series happened and what do you GAFers things about it.

And obvious I want to see opinions about what Turn 10 can to to the series to increase it sales again in next-generation.
Actually Forza Horizion is at way better spot than Forza Motorsport.

What do you think about the future of the series?

Bonus hypothetical case?

What if MS choose to cancel Forza Motorsport series after FM8 and only focus in Forza Horizon series? What do you think Turn 10 will do or work?


Thank you for you time btw.
 
Last edited:

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
It was a topic exposed in the other thread about racing games and after I start to do research I found some interesting points about the series that focus more in the sim racing than arcade (the opposite of the Forza Horizon series that focus in arcade and found a big success into the Xbox userbase).

MS released 3 games in the series this generation so let's start first with the data available about their debut:

Forza Motorsport 5 Debut
MS claimed FM5 to be the fastest-selling racing game in Xbox history.
The game was launched in 22nd November and by MS words in February 18th the game sold to more than one third of the Xbox owners.
MS sold 3.9 million of Xbox One consoles as of December 31.
What that means?
At least 1.3 million copies of FM5 was sold in near 3 months.

Forza Motorsport 6 Debut
With FM6 MS was more directly saying it sold over 1 million units as of Jan 4.
The game launched in September 15th.
What that means?
Over 1 million copies of FM6 was sold in near 4 months.

Forza Motorsport 7 Debut
MS give no data about FM7 sales... they basically only talks about Forza Horizon now.

These are MS PR data but what about others trackers:

GTPlanet claims that "FM5 sold over 2 million lifetime"

GFK talked about FM7 Debut in UK.
GFK UK claimed "Forza Motorsport 7 physical sales down slightly on Forza 6"

What about NPD?

They give us a updated racking list of the best selling Xbox games as of end of August 2019.
In that ranking FM5 include only Xbox Sales (digital and physical).
FM6 and FM7 include Xbox and PC sales (digital and physical).



It shows that even after 2 years FM7 did not manage to catch with FM6 in US... FM5 still continue being the best-selling game by NPD.

Some will say but these are only US data.
Well it is but over 70% of Xbox sales come from US and UK... so the changes to the rest of the world change the situation is pretty much near 0.
We have some Japan data but I choose to ignore them because it is level that can't change anything.

What is the reason for the Decline?

I take some time to think about what happened with the series and I reached two imo reasons to what is happening with Forza Motorsport series:

  • Fatigue. The series is released each two years this gen (2013, 2015 and 2017) and it is a small period between them making the consumers buy one and not the sequels.
  • Forza Horizon series rise. It is indiscutile that Forza Horizon become one of the best selling games from Microsoft and reached a size and success that they never saw with Forza Motorsport and that probably helped to make gamers buy less and less the Forza Motorsport releases.
Are there more reason? I don't know.

Conclusion

I opened the thread to discuss why that decline for the Forza Motorsport series happened and what do you GAFers things about it.

And obvious I want to see opinions about what Turn 10 can to to the series to increase it sales again in next-generation.
Actually Forza Horizion is at way better spot than Forza Motorsport.

What do you think about the future of the series?

Thank you for you time btw.

I would drop motorsport in favor of Forza Horizon
 
It will do well as a next gen launch game, racers always do and it’s tradition. After that I’m not sure, they should probably do just one more towards the end of the generation.

Forza Horizon is now the main IP and that won’t change. Though perhaps Turn10 should try and add more ‘fun’ while still being a sim. They could introduce kart racing, maybe a track builder etc.

They could also do a 3rd IP as has been rumoured before. I would like to see the Hotwheels and Lego stuff combined together into a full game, with maybe some other stuff too. Forza Toybox or something, set in a house / garden like Micro Machines with user created tracks and stuff. I think that would be ace!
 
Last edited:

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
tenor.gif
 

ethomaz

Banned
It will do well as a next gen launch game, racers always do and it’s tradition. After that I’m not sure, they should probably do just one more towards the end of the generation.

Forza Horizon is now the main IP and that won’t change. Though perhaps Turn10 should try and add more ‘fun’ while still being a sim. They could introduce kart racing, maybe a track builder etc.
I too believe they will slow down the release schedule.

Have you still only played the demo?
Actually the demo on Windows Store is the full game for 4 hours.
But the OP says nothing about the quality of the game.
 
Last edited:
Xbox one
FM 7 - 87 meta
FM 6 - 87 meta
FM 5 - 79 meta

PS4
GT Sport - 75 Meta

Play games, not sales.

My opinion is that you shouldn't care about the sales as it seems MS themselves are more than happy with the series, otherwise they would have dropped it. If MS isn't worried then you shouldn't 🤷
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

Banned
Have you still only played 4 hours?
Nope.... I did not finished my 4 hours... I have a little less than 2 hours to play.

Xbox one
FM 7 - 87 meta
FM 6 - 87 meta
FM 5 - 79 meta

PS4
GT Sport - 75 Meta

Play games, not sales.

My opinion is that you shouldn't care about the sales as it seems MS themselves are more than happy with the series, otherwise they would have dropped it. If MS isn't worried then you shouldn't.
Unrelated but thanks.

I played death stranding for 4 hours and put it down. Terrible game.

( im kidding but you see how this can be an issue.)
No problem. Death Stranding is a love/hate case but some believes it gets better after Chapter 3 when it open with more options... myself get loved in the first 3 chapters with over 50 hours.
Of course it is different from a racing game that you will know how it is playing some tracks.
 
Last edited:

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
They released them too often. How often do you really want to buy a new game that features 95 % the same tracks with 90 % the same cars (or those you bought as DLC for the previous entry)? FM should come out every four years, with big DLCs each year. Racing or Forza are obviously not dead, see Horizon. But that series has a new world every two years. While FM7 basically added tire stacks to the same tracks they had two years earlier. And with no meaningful license attached to it (like why FIFA sells so many games every year) that's why you buy a Forza Motorsport. For the tracks and the cars.
 

01011001

Banned
Horizon literally took over the Franchise at this point.

straight up Racing Sims are often too sterile and not as exciting anymore.
I think they need to make the main series more exciting, less serious and add more crazy challenge races etc.

Horizon 4 offers way more than any game of the main series, and that is the issue.
it's a good sign tho that they didn't push out a new one this year, they should really renovate the whole IP at this point. even Horizon will need some big selling points next gen. I would try to change the mood... less Music festival and more underground racing maybe? this could bring in the NFS Underground fanbase (which is still pretty big I bet).
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

Banned
They released them too often. How often do you really want to buy a new game that features 95 % the same tracks with 90 % the same cars (or those you bought as DLC for the previous entry)? FM should come out every four years, with big DLCs each year. Racing or Forza are obviously not dead, see Horizon. But that series has a new world every two years. While FM7 basically added tire stacks to the same tracks they had two years earlier. And with no meaningful license attached to it (like why FIFA sells so many games every year) that's why you buy a Forza Motorsport. For the tracks and the cars.
I stopped to buy FIFA and PES in 2015 (I used to buy one year one the other year the other).
I think racing sims can get better handled with one main game plus updated/DLC instead various iterations per generation.

Horizon literally took over the Franchise at this point.

straight up Racing Sims are often too sterile and not as exciting anymore.
I think they need to make the main series more exciting, less serious and add more crazy challenge races etc.

Horizon 4 offers way more than any game of the main series, and that is the issue.
it's a good sign tho that they didn't push out a new one this year, they should really renovate the whole IP at this point. even Horizon will need some big selling points next gen. I would try to change the mood... less Music festival and more underground racing maybe? this could bring in the NFS Underground fanbase (which is still pretty big I bet).
I agree.
The issue here is that the main series is a sim racing and it is hard to make it less serious.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

Banned
Doesn't matter as a game its still the superior and better. Also there's Horizon which is a game you dream to have on your plastic cherished machine ;)

OP trying to sound diplomatic as much as he can. The irony is it won't work because everyone knows whats OP like ;)
Thanks by the offtopic.

BTW I'm biased... I will never be diplomatic... that is unrelated with the thread.
 
Last edited:

Codes 208

Member
I would personally argue that the handful of exclusives MS has are on the decline because xbox is on the decline in general.

at the end of its life, the 360 pretty much had double the install base the XBO currently has.
 
Last edited:

01011001

Banned
I agree.
The issue here is that the main series is a sim racing and it is hard to make it less serious.

they already had the Top Gear stuff (like in Forza 6 I think it was, you had to run over typical London stuff like phone booths and other recognizable objects and everything was full of garbage... cuz the joke was London is a dirty city with garbage everywhere... or something)
what they need is more of that, and more variety in the races.

we live in a world where there is more to professional racing than straight up round courses or sprints. they could implement a whole Drifting campaign with realistic physics and in depth car customization (more in depth than even now... so you can get into small details to get every last bit of performance out of your car).
they could also make it more like an RPG and less like it is today, where you just choose a type of car and go for it, with enough money ususally to never have to think about it.
having a racing team with multiple disciplines that all need to be managed, with upgrades, repairs etc. would be way more interesting than their current campaigns.
 
Last edited:
OP trying to sound diplomatic as much as he can. The irony is it won't work because everyone knows whats OP like ;)

Yeah it's amazing. To give him some credit for the research, "should Forza be a yearly franchise?" is a somewhat valid question to ask (I think the answer is yes because these games are constantly awesome), but obviously not in such a transparent concern trolling effort.
 

ethomaz

Banned
I would personally argue that the handful of exclusives MS has are on the decline because xbox is on the decline in general.

at the end of its life, the 360 pretty much had double the install base the XBO currently has.
Yeap but that is why I compared only the games released this gen... the 3 games on 360 sold way better but it have a bigger userbase.

That too points even more to Forza Horizon success that grew even when most Xbox exclusives are having lower sales.
It is probably the biggest win from MS this gen.
 

Mista

Banned
Yeah it's amazing. To give him some credit for the research, "should Forza be a yearly franchise?" is a somewhat valid question to ask (I think the answer is yes because these games are constantly awesome), but obviously not in such a transparent concern trolling effort.
Its funny how we aren't getting fooled 😂Even Xbox fanboys never made this research

Let alone looking up a 5 months old tweet too. Aaah I am done😂
 
Hello Mr. no arguments ;)
Already posted them. It's different to have a debate with someone. But when you have no substance, no argument, and continually fall flat on your ass, there's not much anyone can do for you. If you can't accept the facts, then what can we do? "You can bring a horse to the water, but can't make em drink". If you choose to be knowingly wrong, there's literally nothing that can pull you out of your own self-ignorance.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Already posted them. It's different to have a debate with someone. But when you have no substance, no argument, and continually fall flat on your ass, there's not much anyone can do for you. If you can't accept the facts, then what can we do? "You can bring a horse to the water, but can't make em drink". If you choose to be knowingly wrong, there's literally nothing that can pull you out of your own self-ignorance.
The mask dropped :D
You can hate me how much you want... the fact I’m continue being right in my claim won’t change.

Why don’t you create another account?
 
Last edited:
The mask dropped :D
You can hate me how much you want... the fact I’m continue being WRONG in my claim won’t change.

Why don’t I create another account so I can hear myself repeat the same b.s over and over again, x2 ?
My one and only account, you can get the mods to confirm.

I need to keep a track record of all the times you have been proven wrong, and blatantly lie.
 

xrnzaaas

Gold Member
I would drop motorsport in favor of Forza Horizon
Both games are being made by different studios, there's no conflict of interest. I definitely think GT needs a solid competitor and it would be a shame to have another big racing series gone from the market.

The main problem with FM is the same as with Microsoft's other big series - fatigue. They've been releasing the games once every 2 years and not introducing enough stuff to justify spending full price on them. Plus many issues (like corner cutting) were ongoing for many years and the studio didn't touch the subject until FM7 flopped. I also didn't like how they were trying to mimic some of Horizon's stuff in FM7. Leave the silly stuff like knight armors in Horizon and focus on making Motorsport a game for people wanting more professional, realistic racing experience.

Hopefully people at Turn 10 learned their lesson and that FM8 (which will probably release this year along with XSEX) will change things up instead of being a safe sequel with upgraded graphics and a bunch of new cars.
 

TwistedSyn

Member
I remember when Forza 5 came out and......oh boy was that game a DLC fest. I never bought the Xbone but I remember Mark from Classicgameroom went on a tirade on Forza 5 in his review.
"I can't believe you don't even give me the Z! You cheap bastards!"
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
Both games are being made by different studios, there's no conflict of interest. I definitely think GT needs a solid competitor and it would be a shame to have another big racing series gone from the market.

The main problem with FM is the same as with Microsoft's other big series - fatigue. They've been releasing the games once every 2 years and not introducing enough stuff to justify spending full price on them. Plus many issues (like corner cutting) were ongoing for many years and the studio didn't touch the subject until FM7 flopped. I also didn't like how they were trying to mimic some of Horizon's stuff in FM7. Leave the silly stuff like knight armors in Horizon and focus on making Motorsport a game for people wanting more professional, realistic racing experience.

Hopefully people at Turn 10 learned their lesson and that FM8 (which will probably release this year along with XSEX) will change things up instead of being a safe sequel with upgraded graphics and a bunch of new cars.

Something that most people don't know: Turn 10 does a ton of work for Horizon as well. That's not a Playground Studios game at all, it's the result of Turn 10 and Playground cooperating. Between working on a new game every year resources at Turn 10 were spread thin and that resulted in the lackluster improvements this generation. It all started with FM4. Up until that point Forza Motorsport had huge jumps from iteration to iteration (though FM2 was basically FM but in HD). A year after FM4 Forza Horizon launched. And then it was a one year cycle ever since, until last year. I hope it pays off.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Need to make career mode more fun. It gets boring going down a checklist of races for no reason other than to unlock the next race with more laps.
(This goes for all racing games)
What can be done? I get bored on that type of career too (just finished GT6 for the trophies) and I loved the career in GTS that focus in teaching you how to race correctly.

But I know that if I have to play again another career like GTS I will start to fell bored again (same lessons that I already leaned).

The AI in these games are a no go too.

Forza's only problem is that it's on the wrong console.
If that was the case then Forza Horizon should not sell like it did.
I don't think the console is the issue here.

PS. Unrelated but I saw the other thread about GTS... how many GAFers will realize it is a parody thread.... I feel honored.
 
Last edited:

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
Need to make career mode more fun. It gets boring going down a checklist of races for no reason other than to unlock the next race with more laps.
(This goes for all racing games)
FOrza 4 had a legit good career mode. made you drive a ton of different vehicles and classes.
 

ethomaz

Banned
FOrza 4 had a legit good career mode. made you drive a ton of different vehicles and classes.
I think that is part of the issue he is trying to say.
It is probably fun even with weak AI the first time or the first events... it got bored fast and when you buy a new game and have the same thing over and over again... it start to be a issue.

Of course cars that handle differently and tracks layouts helps to hold that gameplay loop.
But we are talking about a genre that do the same type of career for over 20 years already.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

Banned
People switching over to the superior Forza Horizon series.
I don't think it is superior... it is more arcade that cater more casuals.
In terms of driving/racing simulation Forza Motorsport is better.

The too are not comparable... it is depend if you more into simulation or arcade.
 
Last edited:

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
I think that is part of the issue he is trying to say.
It is probably fun even with weak AI the first time or the first events... it got bored fast and when you buy a new game and have the same thing over and over again... it start to be a issue.

Of course cars that handle differently and tracks layouts helps to hold that gameplay loop.
But we are talking about a genre that do the same type of career for over 20 years already.
The career modes are extremely different after 4. The issues with career mode after is that they dont challenge you near as much as 4 did in terms of actually changing how you drive.

Its a not a case of the same thing over and over again .
 

ethomaz

Banned
The career modes are extremely different after 4. The issues with career mode after is that they dont challenge you near as much as 4 did in terms of actually changing how you drive.

Its a not a case of the same thing over and over again .
The AI in Forza 4 was better than helps in the challenge factor.
 

01011001

Banned
Gamepass....it will devalue every fuckn game.

gamepass games sell better than non gamepass games.
as soon as games hit gamepass the sales go up.

for one because games in gamepass don't stay there forever if they aren't first party AND you get a discount on all games that are in gamepass, and the other factor is more people try them and then tell friends about them or write about them on forums etc.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

Banned
gamepass games sell better than non gamepass games.
as soon as games hit gamepass the sales go up.

for one because games in gamepass don't stay there forever if they aren't first party AND you get a discount on all games that are in gamepass, and the other factor is more people try them and then tell friends about them or write about them on forums etc.
Where did you read that?
Sales of games with simultaneous release on Gamepass are flooping.
 

MoreJRPG

Suffers from extreme PDS
Gamepass....it will devalue every fuckn game.
Which is a good thing. It’s cut out Amazon and all the middle men so the studio and the publisher reap the rewards, as it should be. There’s a reason why so many games from non Xbox studios come short after release. The financial incentive is much better than retail.
 

01011001

Banned
Where did you read that?
Sales of games with simultaneous release on Gamepass are flooping.

a couple of devs reported that and Phil Spencer said that on one of his GiantBomb E3 interviews
of course I bet that's not true for all games, but a bunch of them... especially multiplayer games should be doing great.
for example if a friend has gamepass and tells you to get some Multiplayer game because it's great and yadayadayada and then you buy it to play with him.
 
Top Bottom