FRIDAYTON MK II: 5.5 million bears and salmon create unholy allliance to sack SONY HQ

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
So it really will be 5.5 at launch if that's true. That's more than enough for launch.

4.5 plus 1 available if the devs need it and clearly right now not a lot really have a reason to use it all unless they want to push it for the sake of using it.

This would sound so much more convincing if you made an effort in telling him why.
Why would I refute or discredit him more than than that? It's his opinion. He's entitled to it. Do I have to link 15 sources to disagree with his perception?
 
My guess is that this information is old.

Sony has been working tp bring down the OS memory requirements for a while now.

Ever since they brought the memory up to 8 Gigs.

This may apply to launch titles, but everything after will likely use considerably less.
 
How does this differ than what Microsoft (or the consoles last gen) is doing? The post is a sugar coating of the same situation that everyone gave MS shit for; taking up a huge amount of space for non gaming functions, whether a portion is reserved for potential future proofing or not. Proelite already said that some of the space that's reserved for the Xbox is open space for future proofing; just like Sony is doing here. Both can (and most likely will) reduce the footprint in the future.
Seems like a fair point.
 
Can that be calculated?
If so, how would you go about it?
You can set the target bitrate to whatever you want, it'll just make the end result will look better or worse. YouTube, for example, recommends 8000 kilobits/second for 1080p video at 30 FPS. (Audio channels take up another 384 kbps for stereo.)

So, assuming fixed bitrate and YouTube 1080p quality, 8384kbps for 15 minutes works out to 0.94GB. It would be 0.58 GB if they limited you to 720p (5000kbps) and dropped the audio quality to 128kbps.
 
I guess I don't really get what on earth they'd be doing that justifies claiming so much of the system's resources.
Honestly, I don't either, but the one thing that is easy to do is to give back memory to the developer. It's near impossible to request more to be set aside. So maybe Sony is being cautious especially since Microsoft is demanding so much memory to be set aside already. They don't want to get caught with their pants down probably.
 
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
Why would there be a 1 GB developer reserve if there's already a 1 GB futureproofing OS reserve? I find it pretty hard to believe they plan to have 2 GB of GDDR5 just sitting around in reserve.
 
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
Why not just say 5.5GB for devs then? I wonder what's special about this 1GB.
 
The amount is stupidly large, but on the other hand we've heard nothing but approval about RAM figures from developers who would know what is available. The more the better, though.
 

Scrooged

Totally wronger about Nintendo's business decisions.
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
Sounds about right.

But why is 'developer reserve' separate? Why not just give 5.5GB available from the outset?
 
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
QFT.

I just don't get all the bitterness and people talking about jumping ship to the Xbone. 4.5-5.5GB of GDDR5 RAM is still better than 5GB DDR3 RAM. Throw in the better GPU, and PS4 is still clearly on top.
 
You can set the target bitrate to whatever you want, it'll just make the end result will look better or worse. YouTube, for example, recommends 8000 kilobits/second for 1080p video at 30 FPS. (Audio channels take up another 384 kbps for stereo.)

So, assuming fixed bitrate and YouTube 1080p quality, 8384kbps for 15 minutes works out to 0.94GB. It would be 0.58 GB if they limited you to 720p (5000kbps) and dropped the audio quality to 128kbps.
Good lord, all that memory for fucking youtube spam.
 
You can set the target bitrate to whatever you want, it'll just make the end result will look better or worse. YouTube, for example, recommends 8000 kilobits/second for 1080p video at 30 FPS. (Audio channels take up another 384 kbps for stereo.)

So, assuming fixed bitrate and YouTube 1080p quality, 8384kbps for 15 minutes works out to 0.94GB. It would be 0.58 GB if they limited you to 720p (5000kbps) and dropped the audio quality to 128kbps.
Interesting, thanks.

The one thing I don't understand is why they leave 1GB for developers to chose to use/not use, why not just let them have it?
 
So Sony's "goal" if this rumor is true, is to eventually reduce the amount of RAM being used up by the OS/match new features by MS and Ninty. Yet in the Phil Spencer indie thread some people kept [criticizing] Phil's use of the word "goal" ... Why does Sony get the benefit of the doubt, that the OS footprint might eventually be reduced, (if this rumor is true) but not MS in regards to indie full use of RAM?
Not that every poster is guilty of this, but that juxtaposition is pretty stark for the contingent who cheered and jeered like they did. The "consensus" in each thread results in a total contradiction. I'm glad to see someone spell it out so concisely. As you said, it's not like the sky is falling for anyone (and we both seem to think this is an improvement to the platform overall if it's true), but people are having to make a lot of adjustments to how they thought about each platform, from the looks of things.
 
At the end of the day, reserving 3 gigs of ram, 2 CPU cores and x% of GPU and CPU power for the operating system only gimps an already weak console.

I think Microsoft said 10% of the GPU was allocated for the OS, I wonder how much Sony is allocating?

These consoles need a "game mode" with all the bull shit turned off and all resources allocated to gaming
 
Why would there be a 1 GB developer reserve if there's already a 1 GB futureproofing OS reserve? I find it pretty hard to believe they plan to have 2 GB of GDDR5 just sitting around in reserve.
Because they would be used for different things? Also it says developers can access the reserve if they need, I understand why they would want an OS reserve.
 
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
This is a good data point. 1.5GB or less for the actual OS. Sony is reserving 1GB for the future "just in case", that can be freed up for games if needed. Another 1GB is already reserved for developers if they need it, otherwise it get used by the OS.

The huge performance difference of GDDR5 only helps :D

Of course, this is one data point. I'm sure we will get more in the future.
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
Only 4.5Gb available for devs for games on a 8Gb machine. Fucking hell.
 
It's not more powerful "on paper" it's more powerful, period. The DF comparison threads are going to be epic this gen.
I understand that. On paper is also period. It didn't translate this gen. That's why many people opt to wait and see. So far, looking at the games unveiled for both systems, the difference is not to noticeable tbh.
 
lol, yeah, now the bloated OS MS got criticized for is now the norm. Watching the flow of opinions on gaf is pretty cool.
Remember when WiiU was crucified on GAF because its backwards compatability forced you to enter a sub-menu?

And then when the other next-gens revealed they would not offer BC, BC in general was criticized as "backwards-thinking?"

you call it the flow of opinions, I call it hypocrisy.
 
Because I am paying 399.99 for 8gigs and to have almost half wasted on features I don't want is not good. I don't see it any different than MS forcing Kinect on gamers. There is nothing but bloat that could explain that much ram usage by the OS/features. I think most of us could understand starting at 2gigs for that stuff and moving it down but 3.5 is mind boggling. That is as more ram than a full fledged OS desktop uses.
You aren't paying 399 for RAM you are paying 399 for a gaming machine.
 
So just a recollection of the insider posts:

Famousmortimer

I told myself I wasn't going to post in this thread because people are foaming at the mouth and not thinking.... but here I am, which makes me an idiot.

First off, I know all you guys want are hard numbers and I don't have them. But I do know the philosophies in place currently. If you would like to use your brain and think critically about things... keep reading. If you want to get into a 5>4.5 OMG IM CANCELLING MY PREORDER conversation - this thread won't help you, in either direction.

I was told by a couple of Devs in the lead up to E3 that the OS footprint was "bigger than expected" but not a single one of them complained about it. No one is in danger of running out of ram. As some people have mentioned in this thread - games like the The Last of Us are happening with 512mb of ram. Launch titles, of all things, are not going to be pushing the hardware in any sort of way... and that includes ram.

So why is the ram footprint bigger than expected? It's fairly simple - Sony is hedging their bets. They were absolutely caught with their pants down with their OS this gen. Not having the memory overhead to do things like Party Chat gave Microsoft a huge advantage when it came to online gaming, which is obviously a growing sector. So much like $399 as a target price was a reaction to $599 being a disaster... "big OS footprint" is a reaction to "small OS footprint" being a disaster.

But the thing that I'm hearing and I believe there was even a line dedicated to this in the eurogamer article is that these numbers aren't set in stone. The fact of the matter is that high end PC games use around 3gb of ram and use higher res textures (art tends to take up the largest chunks of ram) than the ps4/x1 do. The idea that launch games need 7gb of ram is absolutely ludicrous. 4gbs is fine. Anything more, at this point, is overkill. It won't be overkill forever... but it's overkill for now.

So Sony gets to sit on this chunk of ram, be in 1gb or 3gb - again, I don't know the numbers. I don't know if eurogamer is right (I do know at E3 that some thought more ram would be freed up when the final dev kits shipped... but I don't know anyone working with a final dev kit). But Sony is coming at this from a position of power. They don't need the ram currently so they get to take a wait and see approach before saying "ok, devs, you guys get this." The systems will launch and they will look at what people are doing with their own OS, they will see what features people are asking for, they will see if microsoft or Nintendo (or even steam) come out with some surprise feature that catches fire - and if it does they will have the memory there to be able to do it also. If it doesn't that chunk of ram gets freed up for developers.

This thread is looking at this entire thing like the endgame is the day it launches. That's day one, guys. This is a long term strategic move and, imo, a smart one. They are putting themselves in a position to be able to adapt... something they couldn't do with the ps3. I know as gamers all we want to hear is higher numbers. But find me one developer that thinks the ram available to them on either system isn't enough (and this goes for the x1 as well guys... all this 5gb hurr hurrr stuff is fanboyish nonsense that you can go through my post history and see I never took part in once).

I feel like this post is far to philosophical for this thread of LARGE NUMBER > SMALL NUMBER, but hopefully this info is useful to some of you. Sony have created a nimble system and this is part of that philosophy.
Verendus

1. They're wrong. They should get better sources, or at least attempt a better analysis.

2. OS matters are a bit more complicated than how this is being portrayed.

3. I clearly have a lot to learn before becoming a master troll.

4. It's Friday. My mobile is getting too much of a workout for a Friday.
Thuway

Sony is playing it very safe for launch units. Things like clock rates, OS size, and memory allotments are conservative for a reason. Sony does not want to be in a position where they will lose out on a killer feature or find themselves in a position where there is zero room to grow. I wouldn't be surprised if year 3 or 4 of the PS4's life cycle you see a patch to upclock the GPU.

Upclocking the PS4's GPU 200 mhz more would yield a 2.3 TF machine.

As of this moment, not a single developer has complained about "too little RAM". Most developers are very happy by not only the quantity, but the speed of RAM. As we enter the third year of the machine, the OS size will shrink and things will become less bloated.

Let things play their part and STOP overreacting. Some of you have zero idea how well designed and balanced the PS4 is.
Shinobi

Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Reserved 1gb may simply because of the devkits only have same RAM amount as retail boxes. Pretty hard to be sure your games performing correctly if you're using a GB of phantom RAM you don't have but "will".
 
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
4.5, interesting choice.
 
Here's the deal...somewhat. From a dev at one of the biggest in the industry. Just a messenger here.

Dev still a little cagey to give out 100% concrete numbers unfortunately like I was previously told, so I apologize ahead of time that they're not as detailed, but these are supposed to be the closest to detailed info I get on the OS footprint:

-At most, the OS uses 1.5GB, with a good amount of that helping the HD recording feature and on the fly switching/ multi tasking
-4.5GB is indeed about what's available for devs at present.
-1GB is set aside for futureproofing OS operations down the line.
-1GB for developer reserve, should they need it

And finally as an important point, I'm being told the faster RAM in the PS4 does in fact make a huge difference.
Exactly what I thought, Sony is just creating a saftey net for PS4 by over-reserving more for the OS, and as the OS matures and the picture becomes clear, they can set everything in stone. Very simple, yet people overreacted over nothing.