From games are not hard. From games do not handhold you and do things for you

SlashBringingHasher

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From software games are hard, relatively to what cinematic handholding games give you these days, look at a game like the last of us. you die. you are put a couple of sconds from before you lost. so there is no downside to losing. the game is largely walk to given waypoint. and click/do this to advance. there isn't much of anything to fail. its not what you'd call standard game design. but it has been most video games made in the past decade or so.

From software games are not hard. they do not ask you to make pixel perfect jump. or memorize an extremely fast boss/enemy combo to dodge 100 times.. the game has many playstyles to be beaten. if your really bad like me. you can just build a bulky character and use shields without having to play it like some of these deprived runs with no armor/shields etc that they dodge everything in

90% of 2d games are harder than any from software games. Infact many of them are downright unbeatable by even an experienced person like me. I haven't beaten most 2d games I played because thats how hard they are. the original super mario bros is super hard and I never beaten it . Gotten close. but never all the way to the end. these games are superhard. even many of the recent 2d games are super super difficult

ofcourse when you look at a game like sekiro. and then you compare it to an episodic game that you can't lose in anyway. or say idk. uncharted. it seems hard. but these games do not make you fail at anything. theres hardly anything to fail at. you might die here and there but you don't lose any progress and generally speaking you dont have to worry about much of anything. every triple A game these days just puts you on rail and wants you to look at the art of the game and the story. and thats about it. from games make you play the game.

I mean the games have some hitbox issues here and there. not sekiro but mostly dark souls 1. but thats about it. the game doesn't have some of the silly hard-just-to-be-hard sections 2d games have. even old 3d games were freakishly hard. Jak and daxter 2 is harder than dark souls.

its like. you have a sword. and a shield. and the enemy has a sword and a shield. how do you beat them? you block their sword. and attack when they cant stop your sword. its really that simple . there is a poisonus rat. get antidote or kill the rat before u get hit.

people want these cinematic games A.I that basically lets them win the game. because its not really A.I. its scripted to be more likely to lose.

it just takes effort. people just want to see the ending screen by walking from point A to point B without being challenged.
 
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Danjin44

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FromSofware games is all about careful play and engaging with its mechanics, the biggest difficulty comes with punishing you for your mistakes. There is always weakness with enemies and bosses that you can explore.
 

Mista

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They’re hard, challenging and somehow satisfying. Don’t say is isn’t hard because of “cinematic handholding” it has nothing to do with it to begin with. From’s games normal difficulty is equivalent to the insane difficulty to other games. That being said, it’s all about memorizing the pattern of your enemies and learn to be patient. Learned it the hard way! 10 years ago I would’ve beaten SoulsBorne without a single rage. I got older now and with that I’m losing patience...
 

Spukc

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"people want these cinematic games A.I that basically lets them win the game.

people just want to see the ending screen by walking from point A to point B without being challenged"


I am super happy you are better then people at vidya games.
 

royox

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After repeating one of Sekiro's bosses +50 times YESTERDAY (I beat that fucking Lightning bow mother fucker!!!!!!!!!!!) yes....SEKIRO is hard, hard as fucking balls. But it's not a "shit it's impossible" hard it's a "shit i'm bad at this game", i've played like 20h this game and I still feel I am bad. God's sake I'm so bad at parrying xD and every single samurai General wipes the floor with my face EVERY.TIME
 
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brap

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Playing Dark Souls with a shield is basically easy mode.

"people want these cinematic games A.I that basically lets them win the game.

people just want to see the ending screen by walking from point A to point B without being challenged"


I am super happy you are better then people at vidya games.
Wow, it's almost like some people don't actually want to play games and just want to be part of a group because they have nothing better going on in their lives.
 

Whitesnake

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"people want these cinematic games A.I that basically lets them win the game.

people just want to see the ending screen by walking from point A to point B without being challenged"


I am super happy you are better then people at vidya games.
If you want a walking simulator, there ar plenty of those all over the place.

Some people want a game that challenges them. FromSoft games are made for people like that.

If you’re not like that, don’t buy the game.
 
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daveonezero

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I think there is a very rewarding level of precision and fairness in these types of games. Its hard to explain and I'm sure even harder to balance or create.

Games like Ninja Gaiden Black and Demon Souls are just so good at feedback.
 
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Omeggos

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“From games arent hard”

Yeah Ok. I’ll keep telling myself that as I die 10+ times in my replays against bosses like Midir, Gael, Kalameet, Manus, Artorias, Kos, Demon of Hatred, Owl, Ginichiro.
 

Bolivar687

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I imported Demon's Souls, played all the games, and I really admire them. But there's always a point 1/3 or 1/2 way through where it just takes more commitment and effort than I'm willing to put in and I inevitably walk away. I'd like to finish one of them some day.
 

Mista

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“From games arent hard”

Yeah Ok. I’ll keep telling myself that as I die 10+ times in my replays against bosses like Midir, Gael, Kalameet, Manus, Artorias, Kos, Demon of Hatred, Owl, Ginichiro.
NO THEY AREN’T HARD! You just got spoiled by cinematic holding your hand and walking you to the end. You aren’t hardcore you pathetic casual
 

Harry Tung

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One thing that I find funny with this debate that has sparked around Sekiro and the (supposed) inaccessibility of it, is that it´s easily Froms most accessible game when compared to their previous output. It explains its mechanics very well with tutorial screens during loading, it has no confusing stats, no hard combos to memorize, no obtuse information whatsoever. It is as straight forward as it comes. Sekiro is the definition of "easy to learn, hard to master" and that is what makes it so good. One can also argue that Sekiro starts on "easy mode" since there are ways in the game to increase its difficulty.

And this is what I like about these games. The difficulty is embedded into the gameplay, instead of having a choice at the beginning of the starting screen. You are given tools and items that can make the game a cake walk if you just know what to do. It encourages you to experiment and play around in order to find your preferred playstyle and I think a lot of this will be lost in translation if they just decided to add an easy mode. There are mechanics in the game that you can abuse and a lot of bosses have gimmicks and such that you need to exploit.

All of this add up to a combat system and overall gameplay, that for me, is so deep and rewarding that I have a hard time putting down the controller. I do not wish for this aspect to be ruined with an easy mode. I generally do not like hard games, but Froms games speak to my heart and they bring out something that I simply cannot find elsewhere. They are asking something from me and I am willing to give it to them because I want to explore their games. They are so well made and satisfying and that´s why I´m dedicated to learn it in order to master it. I love how they push video game as an art form with their uncompromising artistic choices, with beautiful worlds, tough as nails-gameplay, original stories and hiddens secrets such as missable areas or bosses.

We have an incredibly streamlined industry today with dozens upon dozens of games that are targeted for mass audience. They are dumbed down to the lowest common denominator just so that they can maximize their sales potential. Isn´t it wonderful then that in this day and age, with such a safe and practically riskfree stance to game making, that we can have a studio that dares doing the opposite? That creates games targeted for a specific audience and that doesn´t compromise their vision?

It´s very disturbing to read this debate about so many players wanting to change From Softwares vision and trying to dumb it down for more mass appeal. Even going so far as to use disabled people as a shield just so that they can hide their own shortcomings as a player. It is nothing wrong with being bad at video games, and there are plenty of fish in the sea for those gamers out there, but it is also nothing wrong with being good at playing games and wanting an experience that is solely created for testing ones mind and spirit.
 
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Nymphae

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Give it a break lol, they are obviously very challenging games. But what I never really see get discussed in this is that anyone can power through their games with enough time spent. I`m not that great at Bloodborne, but I spent tons of time grinding my character out and it eventually got pretty easy, not just from practice, but over levelling.

You can`t really over level in something Ninja Gaiden, you just have to rise to the challenge. It`s funny I don`t really remember these discussions about difficulty when those games were hot - it was sort of understood that this game over here was just a brutal challenge and that was either your cup of tea or it was not.
 
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TheDuskwalker

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Wow, it's almost like some people don't actually want to play games and just want to be part of a group because they have nothing better going on in their lives.
First 3 things on spukc's list. No wonder he comes into every Souls and difficulty topic regurgitating the elitist nonsense. "it's not I who was wrong, IT WAS THE WORLD!"
 
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FeldMonster

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Oh, so it is easy, as long as you are perfect, know everything, never make mistakes, and are an elitist, gotcha.
 

brap

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Oh, so it is easy, as long as you are perfect, know everything, never make mistakes, and are an elitist, gotcha.
Oh, so it is hard, as long as you have a tiny brain, never try to do better, don't take your time, and don't care to learn, gotcha.
 
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haxan7

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I imported Demon's Souls, played all the games, and I really admire them. But there's always a point 1/3 or 1/2 way through where it just takes more commitment and effort than I'm willing to put in and I inevitably walk away. I'd like to finish one of them some day.
I’m getting to this point with Sekiro. Just don’t have the mental energy to invest that I used to. I played all previous Souls games to completion, including Bloodborne into NG+4.

I don’t know what to say to someone trying to say these games aren’t hard.
 

Saberyoko

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Do people never played Sonic 2 SMS and Kenseiden?

Those games gonna shape you in life for good.

On a sidenote, do these people complaining could try playing easier games instead of demanding changes to any other they find difficult?
 

Danjin44

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I’m getting to this point with Sekiro. Just don’t have the mental energy to invest that I used to. I played all previous Souls games to completion, including Bloodborne into NG+4.

I don’t know what to say to someone trying to say these games aren’t hard.
I would say hardest part in both Sekiro and Souls/Bloodborne games is the the beginning when you are still getting used to the mechanics and trying to figure out how the combat works. For me after Genichiro boss fight the combat just clicked for me and the game became much more manageable and just became addicted to entire gameplay of Sekiro.
 
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Danjin44

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I like me some From games, but sometimes I feel the challenge is artificial. I mean what game wouldn’t be hard if literally everything in the game can kill you in 2 to 3 hits and the enemies have decent A.I.
I disagree with that, the attacks bosses do that can kill you 1 or 2 hits have clear anticipation before they attack and in Sekiro's case most of the time there is red kanji comes up when about to their big attack.
 

haxan7

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I would say hardest part in both Sekiro and Souls/Bloodborne games is the the beginning when you are still getting used to the mechanics and trying to figure out how the combat works. For me after Genichiro boss fight the combat just clicked for me and the game became much more manageable and just became addicted to entire gameplay of Sekiro.
I was stuck on Genichiro for days, then watched videos of people beating him and realized I was playing the wrong way (trying to get behind the enemy and punish them for committing to attacks). Adjusted my style to block everything and attack aggressively and took him down pretty quickly.

Been stuck on the poop flinging Ape for over a week now. Just been either too tired after work or wanting to do other things to get him down.

I think this same thing happened to me with Bloodborne at first. I just think the OP and anyone saying From games aren’t hard need to add some nuance to their argument because these games are hard as fuck.
 

[Asmodean]

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It's a good thing this is from Japan, or we'd have had multiple 'balance hotfixes' by now, after all this accessibility nonsense.

It's been the same since From games got picked up by mainstream media.

..Imho, the loudest people have the emptiest heads, and social media has given these 'loud people' a global voice.
 

Danjin44

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Been stuck on the poop flinging Ape for over a week now. Just been either too tired after work or wanting to do other things to get him down.
It seems lot of people do get stuck in Guardian Ape boss.

This video made me laugh so hard.
 
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Sqorin Hammerfarf

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I just think the OP and anyone saying From games aren’t hard need to add some nuance to their argument because these games are hard as fuck.
Maybe there needs to be more nuance to the discussion than a word like "hard" can actually deliver on. Like, is it hard because you don't know how to defeat a boss and have to play many times to discover the correct way to win (discovery)? Or is it hard because you know what to do, but the dexterity needed to perform it is too high (timing)? Or maybe it is hard because you are punished so much for losing that each attempt is an extended exercise (time to try)? Or maybe there are one hit kills that severely punish players not paying attention (one hit kills)? Or perhaps it is hard because the bosses are intimidating and aggressive, creating a heightened sense of tension (anxiety)? Or there's so many things to pay attention to that it's just a logistical challenge more than anything else (logistics)? Or maybe it is the combination of all these things, where failure feels oppressive and success requires multiple failures?

I haven't played Sekiro yet, but other Souls games generally have most bosses require only 3-4 attempts to beat (in my experience), but you'll usually find one or two that are just stubborn mother fuckers who steadfastly refuse to give you an inch. In Bloodborne, Martyr Logarius and Ludwig for me. Logarius had the longest time to try, with a seriously painful trek back to his boss room, and his attacks were fast and hard to dodge. I used Ludwig's Holy Blade in two hands as a great sword (I also used a Great Sword in Monster Hunter, which is probably the closest not-Souls game to the Souls games) so I never learned how to stun lock with the pistol during my playthrough. Ludwig was a timing nightmare as he is fast as hell with multiple one hit kill attacks, which made each battle an extremely anxious experience - but I started making headway by summoning Henriett to help me battle. Vicar Amelia was another one I had trouble with (though less so), largely because the constant screaming really set me on edge during the whole battle. With that much adrenaline, each failure felt like losing a bowl game.

My point is that the bosses generally don't hit every one of those problem areas (though some do), but you will eventually meet one that hits you right in your weak point for great damage. I think people generally get stuck at one of these bosses and don't remember all the challenges that they accomplished early on - the bosses they didn't have a problem with. Like, I don't even remember fighting Ebrietas. I have the trophy, so I must've. And I think some bosses are just harder in general. I'd be surprised if there was anyone out there who found Martyr Logarius to be easy but just got stuck as hell on Rom the Vacuous Spider or the Celestial Emissary (both are more logistical bosses than anything else - Living Failures too).

But you end up hitting these choke points that operate as skill checks (you must be this tall to ride), and they don't let you past until you've grown a few inches. It gives you a warped sense of "hard" because you spend an inordinate amount of time on just a few parts of the game, when the vast majority of the game is relatively benign.
 

SlashBringingHasher

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let me rephrase it.
From games aren't made to be hard. they are made to have you do what you can physically do in the situation your put in. ok?. your not stronger than most of your enemies because why should you be?. you don't get to spawn right where you died because why should you? those are handholding mechanics.
 
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Orpheum

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overcoming the learning curve is tough but rewarding as hell. The Soulsborne games are among my favorite games of all time but the jump to sekiro was difficult for me. I got the hang of it after around 5 hours and now i think it's even better than Dark Souls 1
 

AV

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They are hard. You have to weigh up the games on a spectrum of every other video game available or else its pointless saying something just "is" or "isn't". Compared to the majority of games, From games are hard. Simply comparing them to 2D games made in an era where games were designed to eat quarters and fuck you over is just unfair.

But they're fair (for the most part). That's the main thing. In Sekiro you learn from your mistakes and get better. If someone can beat the same game as you in under an hour and you're not legitimately disabled in some way then you can definitely beat it at your own pace. It's just about the willingless to learn and adapt, practice and get better.
 

Rhazer Fusion

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I disagree with that, the attacks bosses do that can kill you 1 or 2 hits have clear anticipation before they attack and in Sekiro's case most of the time there is red kanji comes up when about to their big attack.
Actually, I’m not necessarily singling out the bosses or Sekiro in general, but some of the enemies in From games as well. Seems like they sometimes ramp up the damage up really high for your character. For example, a kick from an enemy or flying stone ball on fountainhead palace should not take out my guy in literally one to two hits when I’m near maxed out imho. I think that truly contributes to the From game’s difficulty as much as I love them all. I didn’t appreciate the one kill throws in Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 master ninja difficulty because I thought it was a little cheap. I feel that a game that was naturally balanced difficulty-wise as crazy as this may sound was Ninja Gaiden Black.

Not to say that something like Sekiro is imbalanced, cheap or anything because I think for the most part, it’s fair, yet I think it’s more unforgiving than most games if you don’t learn from your mistakes.
 
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blly155

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they are challenging but not as difficult as people like to make them out to be. for soulsborne there is a learning curve for each game but after a few hours it just kinda clicks and you're rolling. some bosses will fuck you up but nothing crazy.

people just get upset because they don't like being challenged. they want their hand held and guided through the game without having to use their brain too much so that they can just look at the pretty graphics. they are like the people who pick up a newspaper/magazine/book just to look at the pictures and then get angry because they didn't get the full experience and are then told to go back and read the words. it's too much work for their brain to do that.

Someday it will bite this fat fuck in the ass. But for now he can keep putting up his clown suit for I guess someone's amusement.
somehow i knew exactly whose video that would be before looking lol. urgh i can't stand that guy. all he does is piss and moan. i mean if he really gets so bent out of shape over video games so much then maybe you're in the wrong industry lol. or maybe that's just his shhtick that his rabid fans want to consume because they too are full of anger.
 
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klosos

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You know this argument reminds me of the MMO players from ten years ago , the casuals , the guys who could only play WOW for 3-4 hours a week , the guys who could only play for five hours and they spent that five hours complaining and demanding the stuff the hardcore raiders had.

I haven't got around to Sekiro yet but i love Bloodborne , so when i do get around to it , i know i will get my shit pushed in and that's ok. I can do one of two things grit my teeth and push through and learn to try and beat it , Or i will put the controller down and never touch it again. Simple

What i wont do is Cry about and ask From Software to cater to me.
 

petran79

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Many indie 2d platformers are hard but they also have save points scattered around each stage. Or else they would be impossible to beat for 99.5 % of players. Eg imagine having just 3 lives for a whole world of Super Meat Boy, Gianna Sisters or They Bleed Pixels
Though they feature an ultra hard mode with no saves and just one life

So difficulty is not much different,it is just that they are more niche and attract fewer players,meaning less complaints
 

cormack12

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They do take a lot of training to become good at. Isn't that what hard means?
I would argue against that. When I first played the games, I raged and called bullshit on loads of things that I perceived as horrible. The crappy camera angles (they they still struggle with), the clipping through environments when you think you're safe/out of range. The horrible parts of the game where you're traversing ledges or janky controls/stun animations make you fall. That's what people stack into the equation when calling these games 'hard'. I think it's just poor delivery. These are things that cause you to die a lot and turn people off. But the subject is Taboo because From have this weird cult of fans that protect their games from all criticism so the points are never fully discussed.

After you spend a bit of time with the game, you realise Souls isn't a 'difficult' game. There are basically three main strats that don't really change for most mobs. You don't even have to engage with backstab/riposte if you don't want.

- just run in circles around the enemies. When they strike, dodge/roll then attack;
- If the enemies are large radial attackers, then dodge into them so you end up behind them as their attack animates;
- Avoid pulling multiple enemies;

Those three methods will get you past most areas that don't have passive risks like swamps or frenzy. If you try and get that extra hit, you will be punished harshly for it.

Then you come to the bosses which is the second place I think people take umbrage with the games, speaking from a general gamers point of view. They have massive health bars usually and can quickly take you down with one 3-5 hit combo if stunlocked. Plus fighting the camera on many on them makes it joyless at times. The bosses are tough though, then when you die, there;s usually a poor loading screen, then effectively a corpse run back to the boss gate. If the premise is built on dying often then making players wait through loading screens then do a bit of a sprint back to the encounter seems another strange decision. There's nothing wrong with having the bonfire outside the boss door. If you respawn there then you can go back and farm souls/vials if you require them but don't make it mandatory. Which I believe they did in Sekiro with totems or whatever,

With all that in mind, I think Souls is just a game of enemy placement memory, three basic strats then basically a war of attrition with the boss. They kill you quicker and have bigger movesets so it naturally takes longer to get used to them before you beat them. I'm up to Pontyff (beaten him) in DS3 but haven't been back yet because I know the next part is just farming.

OP is right about the old games though. I don't think I saw the end of Chakan for example.
 

mcz117chief

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You realize you are on GAF, right? We here are ALL hard-core gamers who spent hours for years getting better at video games. Take a non-gamer, put a controller in his hand and tell him to play Uncharted. The person won't get anywhere despite you saying it is impossible to fail at that game. You really have a problem with perspective. I recently introduced gaming to a few people and it has been seriously eye-opening for me. Over 20 hours spent in HellDivers yet a lvl 3 (easy) is still a big challenge for them if I don't play with them. Give them game like Dark Souls and they would have trouble beating the first enemy in the game. They would have trouble controlling the camera, trying to memorize even the most basic controls and make ridiculous and outrageous mistakes by our standards, like accidentally walking off the ledge, standing around getting hit while flaying their arms shouting "what do I do?! What is the button for...".
 
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nkarafo

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They are hard and that's fine.

Not all games are for everyone. For instance, i don't like cinematic "press A to awesome" games. And many of them don't have hard modes or "non-cinematic" ones and you won't see people demand them either.

Except for Metroid. For it, i have demands.
 
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AV

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You realize you are on GAF, right? We here are ALL hard-core gamers who spent hours for years getting better at video games. Take a non-gamer, put a controller in his hand and tell him to play Uncharted. The person won't get anywhere despite you saying it is impossible to fail at that game. You really have a problem with perspective. I recently introduced gaming to a few people and it has been seriously eye-opening for me. Over 20 hours spent in HellDivers yet a lvl 3 (easy) is still a big challenge for them if I don't play with them. Give them game like Dark Souls and they would have trouble beating the first enemy in the game. They would have trouble controlling the camera, trying to memorize even the most basic controls and make ridiculous and outrageous mistakes by our standards, like accidentally walking off the ledge, standing around getting hit while flaying their arms shouting "what do I do?! What is the button for...".
Nailed it, basically. Step back from the bubble of people who post to gaming websites, because it's a fraction of the people that play games. For the majority of people playing game, From games are tough as nails. Of course people who play a lot of games aren't going to find them impossible. There will always be someone better than you, though - plenty of people will tell you that SMB1 "isn't that hard" when you can't beat it.
 

mcz117chief

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Nailed it, basically. Step back from the bubble of people who post to gaming websites, because it's a fraction of the people that play games. For the majority of people playing game, From games are tough as nails. Of course people who play a lot of games aren't going to find them impossible. There will always be someone better than you, though - plenty of people will tell you that SMB1 "isn't that hard" when you can't beat it.
It is like a bunch of Olympic hockey players talking to each other saying: "bruh, just dash across the ice, do a spin and I'll pass you the puck, then you ride backwards a bit, circle around the defenders, faint, pass me the puck and I'll shoot the goal. So easy. Can't imagine anybody having trouble with that." It is funny. Nobody watches a master pianist play "Flight of the Bumblebee" and say "meh, so easy" and neither do the pianists say that but gamers have this strange way of gauging difficult. Just because it is easy for them means it is easy for everybody else and also gloat how they have 6000 hours in that game without realizing that there might be a connection.
 
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Saruhashi

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Something I would say is that I actually like and enjoy the combat in the From games.
So if I am on the way to a boss and I get killed it doesn't feel as frustrating going back and as you get better and better at fighting it becomes more enjoyable.

Compared to Uncharted I would say that if I died then it's kind of annoying because I almost don't feel like I am enjoying the combat anyway so be asked to do it again is more of a chore.

I wouldn't say From games are not hard but rather that the difficulty lies in figuring out the game.

I struggled badly with the first Dark Souls. I remember Bell Gargoyles and Capra Demon being real sticking points.
Once I beat them once though? I can breeze through future playthroughs.
This has been true for all From games for me.

Started Bloodborne again after I got the DLC and those early bosses are so easy once you know what you are doing.
First playthrough I probably died to Blood Starved beast more than 20 times.
On my second playthrough I specifically remember beating that boss first time and also beating several others on my first go.
Amygdala is an absolute nightmare right up until the point where you know how to beat Amygdala then it's a walk in the park.

My feeling has always been that a lot of people approach these games has they have approached so many PS2, PS3, PS4 era games. Just hitting the attack button and hoping for the best. No sense of caution or defensiveness.

In Sekiro it's not instantly clear that your "defend" button and your defensive and countering options are, in fact, your main actions in the game.
Aggression works in stealth mode when you have the drop on the enemy.
Once you face the enemy head on you switch to more defensive options.

There are 3 minibosses (only one of which is optional) off the top of my head that you will beat by ONLY playing defensive until their posture breaks.
There are several regular enemies who also basically beat themselves in this way.

A large part of the difficulty lies with the player not taking the time to learn the game.
 

Fuz

Member
Jun 8, 2009
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DS games are good at making you think they're hard.

But in reality, pretty much everyone can finish them.

I think Sekiro is a little different on the matter, though, due to the way the combat is designed (I also have no experience of Demon's or Bloodborne).
 

nkarafo

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Nov 30, 2012
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A large part of the difficulty lies with the player not taking the time to learn the game.
This.

I struggled a lot on the final boss and i realized it wasn't because of the difficulty but because the boss had 4 phases which means more things to practice for and learn. I didn't have the patience for so many phases and i was getting my ass handed because of this. But the more i played, the easier the first couple of phases were getting. The same phases that seemed impossible to me when i first encountered them. I could literally beat the first phase in the same time most speedrunners could. So it wasn't too long until i finally beat him (and i even had lots of healing to spare).

It's a game of practice and figuring out what to do. Once you figure it out there's nothing holding you back.
 
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