Frozen Synapse dev's in-depth post about key reselling and interview with G2A

[ashecitism]

https://medium.com/@mode7games/the-key-masters-reselling-and-the-games-industry-6bb01a6a4963

won't quote, just read it, it's long. Also inlcudes other devs' thoughts.

 

[ashecitism]

https://twitter.com/mode7games/status/647423955557593088

article I tweeted features comment from @cliffski @glassbottommeg @puppygames @owlcavegames @agtutty @TheNovelistGame @LewieP and @G2A_com

 

[Sinatar]

Caspian Prince, Puppy Games

For the past however many years, we’ve basically been seeing a vast number of retail activations compared to actual sales. Of course, we’ve been in numerous bundles… so we can imagine that a fairly large number of “bundle retail activations” would be taking place… but I’m wondering whether the length of that queue should be such that our retail activations consistently outweighs our Steam sales by some large factor (currently > 5:1)

Here’s the last 12 months’ retail activations data:

Titan Attacks (retail) 38,650

Revenge of the Titans (retail) 10,047

Titan Attacks we might reasonably guess should be fairly big numbers as it’s been featured in bundles this year but the one that really sticks out like a sore thumb is Humble Indie Bundle 2. That was five years ago. People don’t just “discover” stuff they bought five years ago in those kind of numbers. From our perspective, we made approximately $5000 from those Humble sales (probably a bit less) but now it looks more like we’re losing $55,000 in Steam sales as a result. Which is of course the difference between me carrying on in game development and getting a job as software development manager here at Seamap… which is what happened.

In reality those keys are probably being sold by sites like G2A but for knockdown prices so we can’t really say we’re losing $55k in sales that way, probably some fairly smaller fraction of that like $20k. But then this is only one of our games… the other three are presumably going to keep selling via retail keys for years to come as well. Gah.

So gross (the key resellers, not puppygames).

EDIT:

Anonymous Indie Developer

Basically, any of our games on Steam, for better or for worse, provide keys to users that allow them to use our non-Steam client if they wish.

Turns out copies of one of our titles were getting bought on Steam and then refunded, while the non-Steam keys were being sold on G2A.

Steam do provide us a list of these, which we can blacklist/deactivate for our non-Steam clients but by the time we had gotten round to doing the first batch, there were already around 7000 to be processed.

Of course this includes actual refunds but there was a big chunk of players who received a very nasty shock. I was sent numerous messages from people asking why they couldn’t play multiplayer anymore. As I understand, our support received 100+ tickets on that issue within the week.

We weren’t perfect in getting organised around this and probably could have reduced some of the damage done but it’s heartbreaking when there’s just nothing you can do and players who are doing us a service by keeping the game active have to be turned away. I guess a lot of them bought the game again but it really irks me that G2A profit from this business which is just negative to developers and players.

Almost gave them a piece of my mind when I saw them at Gamescom and probably would have done if I wasn’t there with the company.

I had no idea steam refunds were being abused in this way. Fucking grotesque.

 

[Akronis]

Grey markets suck for indies :/

 

[80s Bad Guy]

So scummy. Makes G2A sound as bad as that asshole who raised prescription prices.

 

[Zynx]

If the keys really came from humble bundle, then they're completely legit keys, aren't they? Humble bundle keys can be gifted and such - they're not attached to accounts when you buy the bundle.

I would be interested if those devs would say how many keys were sold through humble bundles, rather than how little revenue they received.

 

[Joriaan]

This makes me question the legality and usefulness (for devs) of my purchases, even though I never buy keys from sellers like G2A and similar sites. For instance, I bought a few games from Nuuvem, but I stopped with that since it left a bad taste in my mouth, not sure if it's even legal or just morally grey. But what about bundles from BundleStarz, Humble Bundle and the like? Am I actually supporting the devs enough if I buy keys there?

Edit: I never resale bundle keys because that's just a dickmove. I do often give doubles / unwanteds away for free, especially to people I know that can't afford it otherwise.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

People abusing steam refunds is pretty disgusting. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[dave is ok]

Why did the Steam API stop letting you redeem straight to your account? That would curb this type of abuse.

 

[pants]

Titan Attacks we might reasonably guess should be fairly big numbers as it’s been featured in bundles this year but the one that really sticks out like a sore thumb is Humble Indie Bundle 2. That was five years ago. People don’t just “discover” stuff they bought five years ago in those kind of numbers. From our perspective, we made approximately $5000 from those Humble sales (probably a bit less) but now it looks more like we’re losing $55,000 in Steam sales as a result. Which is of course the difference between me carrying on in game development and getting a job as software development manager here at Seamap… which is what happened.

I cant get behind this argument.

 

[Akronis]

Why did the Steam API stop letting you redeem straight to your account? That would curb this type of abuse.

They disallowed the use of OAuth for key redemption because of reasons.

 

[Htown]

I see no problem with someone legally buying a key for a cheap price and selling it at a higher price later.

As long as you're not trying to sell a key that you've already used, it seems legit to me.

For example. Let's say I buy two copies of a game for a low price on the Humble Store. One I attach to my Steam account so I can play the game, the other I hold onto in order to sell later.

In no world should it be illegal for me to sell that second, unused key.

The developers already got their money for it, what I do with it after that is irrelevant.

 

[ebullientprism]

I can see a problem with stolen keys, refund abuse keys and promotional keys being sold as something really terrible.

Re selling Humble bundle or any other bundle keys, I dont see the problem. If someone buys your game in a bundle. Waits 2-3 months for the price to go upwards a bit and then sells/trades it then there is nothing wrong with that. If you dont like that process then dont put the game in pay what you want type bundles.

 

[JinKagekiyo]

Yuck at the steam refund thing :C

 

[fenners]

But what about bundles from BundleStarz, Humble Bundle and the like? Am I actually supporting the devs enough if I buy keys there?

Those sites you mentioned are above board.

 

[Akronis]

I see no problem with someone legally buying a key for a cheap price and selling it at a higher price later.

As long as you're not trying to sell a key that you've already used, it seems legit to me.

For example. Let's say I buy two copies of a game for a low price on the Humble Store. One I attach to my Steam account so I can play the game, the other I hold onto in order to sell later.

In no world should it be illegal for me to sell that second, unused key.

The developers already got their money for it, what I do with it after that is irrelevant.

I think it's more of the stolen credit card issue where G2A has absolutely no way of verifying that it may or may not be stolen, but offering a service if it gets revoked for just that very reason.

 

[Naminator]

People abusing steam refunds is pretty disgusting. This is why we can't have nice things.

This is of course assuming that all of their refunds are from scammers, rather than their game being shit.

 

[BriareosGAF]

This is pretty interesting market arbitrage and someone should be prepping a thesis paper on it.

 

[Denton]

Such a great article. Personally, I have used these resellers in the past, but only for games from companies I do not care about. For example I got Assassin's Creed Rogue for some 20 dollars on one of these sites, because I do not really case if my money goes to Ubisoft or not (although I assume at least a part had to). But I would never buy a game from company I do care about (CD Projekt, Larian, Obsidian..) on a reseller site, when I have no idea where the money goes.

 

[Of All Trades]

Such a great article. Personally, I have used these resellers in the past, but only for games from companies I do not care about. For example I got Assassin's Creed Rogue for some 20 dollars on one of these sites, because I do not really case if my money goes to Ubisoft or not (although I assume at least a part had to). But I would never buy a game from company I do care about (CD Projekt, Larian, Obsidian..) on a reseller site, when I have no idea where the money goes.

You're still increasing the viability of those sites which means you're contributing to your chosen developers being used in the same way.

These threads typically provide ample evidence that a stunning number of people can't critically think outside of their selfish boxes because the issue isn't you selling a few bonus humble keys, or even someone someone on the BST thread selling a hundred region free keys, but websites dedicated to selling tens of thousands of keys for one game and negatively distorting the market. It's similar why no one gives a shit if you get a hot stock tip but you'll go to jail if you engage in insider trading.

 

[OnionPowder]

This is of course assuming that all of their refunds are from scammers, rather than their game being shit.

You don't see an issue with refunding the game getting your full money back and then selling the key so you make profit while the developer gets no money?

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

This is of course assuming that all of their refunds are from scammers, rather than their game being shit.

How does this relate to the thread topic?

 

[jediyoshi]

This makes me question the legality and usefulness (for devs) of my purchases, even though I never buy keys from sellers like G2A and similar sites. For instance, I bought a few games from Nuuvem, but I stopped with that since it left a bad taste in my mouth, not sure if it's even legal or just morally grey. But what about bundles from BundleStarz, Humble Bundle and the like? Am I actually supporting the devs enough if I buy keys there?

It's a very straight forward distinction. Redistributors are either authorized or not authorized. If they're authorized, they get their keys directly from publishers/developers. If they're not, they're completely nebulous. Nuuvem and Humble are authorized as they get their keys from publishers/developers. Nuuvem is morally gray because those prices are intended for the Brazilian market, on the flip side to that situation, publishers/developers technically have all the mechanisms in place if they truly wanted to lock out regions where those prices weren't intended from purchasing.

 

[Sinatar]

This is of course assuming that all of their refunds are from scammers, rather than their game being shit.

 

[TheSeks]

Ashton Raze, Owl Cave Games

Both of our games can be found on key reselling sites; Richard & Alice and The Charnel House Trilogy, as well as the R&A/CHT bundle, although the bundle is listed as ‘out of stock’. I don’t think we’ve ever actually generated Steam keys for the bundle so I’ve no idea why it’s listed. I’ve never communicated with any of them about our games.
Honestly, I don’t have much of a problem with it. I’ve put those games out for sale (or distributed the keys), an action I was happy with, and I’m kind of okay with them being treated as things that can be resold. Don’t get me wrong, I get that it’s better if people don’t buy through key resellers, and I’d encourage any of our potential customers to buy through approved channels (even if it means waiting for a sale), but I also don’t feel like it’s my place to tell people they can’t resell a key they’ve bought.

If someone does buy from a key reseller, then I’d want to encourage them (through the quality of our games and developer/customer relations) to be there day one the next time we release a game, buying from one of our approved sellers instead of a key reseller.

But! Of all the things to expend energy on, I’ve come to feel that with key reselling, there’s a chance it might bring new audience members in.

The best answer.

It's scuzzy that people buy from Steam, take the key and then refund (which shouldn't be possible. The key should be hidden if bought off Steam and redeemed automatically through Steam unless refunded, but you know... hindsight and all that) it, but if someone buys it from HumbleBundle and doesn't want the title and wants to sell it: Well that isn't their problem, the person that gave the keys away should've expected that sort of deal in being "bundled."

The only thing you can do is make a "not for resale" sort of deal, but that's tricky with digital stuff and being able to remove that or people just not caring and reselling it anyway. It's the way of the world, like the SavyGamer dude responded.

 

[jshackles]

For example. Let's say I buy two copies of a game for a low price on the Humble Store. One I attach to my Steam account so I can play the game, the other I hold onto in order to sell later.

In no world should it be illegal for me to sell that second, unused key.

Except that when you made a purchase from Humble Bundle for said key, you agreed to their terms of service saying that you wouldn't resell that key and would only use it for your own personal non-commercial use.

 

[ebullientprism]

Except that when you made a purchase from Humble Bundle for said key, you agreed to their terms of service saying that you wouldn't resell that key and would only use it for your own personal non-commercial use.

Where??

https://www.humblebundle.com/terms

Doesnt mention anything about reselling. All it mentions is that its non commercial. Does that stop you from trading it? Does non commercial encompass everything related to money in this case?