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GAF, help me find a monitor for my (weird) needs

nkarafo

Member
I never imagined that looking for a new monitor would be so hard...

Anyway, right now i still have a CRT monitor. The problem with this is that i'm used to the crystal clear image while scrolling. I'm using this monitor for browsing the Internet and i can read the text clearly while the page is smoothly scrolling. In modern LCD displays i can't do that. The text gets blurred while it's moving so i have to stop the scrolling in order to read. That annoys me. So i thought a 144hz monitor would be able to offer me this but i never tested one in person and i don't know if that's the case. If not then there is no reason to get a 144hz monitor since i will be able to do the same at 60hz, better colors/viewing angles and less money.

Basically i need a fast monitor, not so much for games but for a similar Desktop experience as my current (dying) CRT. Hence the "weird" in the title as most people spend the extra money for the gaming experience.

I also have a Nvidia GPU (1060) so having gsync would be a nice bonus. I will still play games at 60hz though.

Finally, i need a monitor that's modern enough. I was almost going to get an asus vg248qe based on it's popularity and reviews but that is an old monitor, released many years ago, so all the problems of the TN panel will be at their peak. I heard modern TN panels are closer than ever to IPS when it comes to color quality so i would like to have that.

My budget is 350 euros. Maybe i can squeeze at 400 if i can find something that checks all the boxes.
 
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Dice

Member
144hz will indeed get you that CRT motion clarity. For your budget you'll probably have to settle for a TN panel, maybe VA but no Gsync.
 
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drotahorror

Member
What do you think of this monitor?

Dell Alienware AW2518HF

It sells for 320-350 in my country. The only downside is that i won't be able to use the freesync option. The Gsync version is way too expensive.

It actually seems really good.

https://www.144hzmonitors.com/reviews/dell-alienware-aw2518hf-review/

If that's what you want, then you can't go wrong. It's a TN panel with fast response time, there should be no ghosting (no blurry text when scrolling, no trailing). You can achieve the same results with a 120/144hz panel though. Maybe even with a 60hz TN panel. I'm rocking a VA panel and it does have slight ghosting but it's not noticeable to me in games or movies. Only when scrolling text quickly and trying to read it which I don't really have an issue with if I scroll slowly though.

Just know, not many games will take advantage of the full 240hz with a 1060, really not many cards will. You may get some pretty nasty screen tearing in some games.
 

nkarafo

Member
Just know, not many games will take advantage of the full 240hz with a 1060, really not many cards will. You may get some pretty nasty screen tearing in some games.
Not interested in playing games at that high hz. I only care about the "ghosting/blurring free" desktop experience. Maybe also the scrolling in old 2D games via emulators (which is crystal clear on the CRT but really bad on any LCD i ever tested..

I assume i can reduce the speed of the monitor at 120 or 60hz if i want, right? It'a not like the monitor won't be able to produce lower hz. But i'm still asking to make sure, i have no experience with such displays.
 
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orborborb

Member
the important thing for your particular issue is that the display supports ULMB, Black Frame Insertion, or other form of backlight flickering... AND that it can do this at constant refresh rates above about 85hz

even higher refresh rates, faster response times, and GSYNC do NOT solve this kind of motion blur, the important thing is that individual frames are flashed with darkness in between them, which means the brightness of the backlight has to be far brighter since most if the time it is displaying blackness.

https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/motion-blur-reduction/ for details

I am happy with my xb271hu because the ips technology prevents the colors shifting from the top to bottom of the display and lets me use it in a vertical orientation, but I still wish it had better color and black levels like CRTs or OLEDs.
 
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drotahorror

Member
Not interested in playing games at that high hz. I only care about the "ghosting/blurring free" desktop experience. Maybe also the scrolling in old 2D games via emulators (which is crystal clear on the CRT but really bad on any LCD i ever tested..

I assume i can reduce the speed of the monitor at 120 or 60hz if i want, right? It'a not like the monitor won't be able to produce lower hz. But i'm still asking to make sure, i have no experience with such displays.

Yeah you can set a different refresh rate, you'll want to do this in Nvidia Control Panel, although you can change it in windows as well. When I had a 144hz monitor briefly it did let me switch down to 60hz when I wanted to.




You will want to use Display Port as well for your input method. I'm not sure if HDMI 2.0 supports 240hz @ 1080p.
 

dirthead

Banned
300hz wouldn't give you CRT clarity.

If you want clarity, a 120hz monitor with ULMB mode on will get you there. You get clarity from flickering not from a 240hz refresh rate.

Mike Abrash calculated that you'd need to run at about 1000hz to get persistence as low as a flickering CRT. The technology doesn't even exist in commercial products today.

Just use ULMB and be done with it.
 

nkarafo

Member
300hz wouldn't give you CRT clarity.

If you want clarity, a 120hz monitor with ULMB mode on will get you there. You get clarity from flickering not from a 240hz refresh rate.

Mike Abrash calculated that you'd need to run at about 1000hz to get persistence as low as a flickering CRT. The technology doesn't even exist in commercial products today.

Just use ULMB and be done with it.
To use ULMB i still need at least 120 hz right? 60 for the frames i can see and 60 black frames in between.

Can i use it on any 120 hz+ monitor? Or it needs to be a hardware feature? I know RetroArch has such a mode via it's own software.

Also, is it going to damage or lower the life expectancy of the monitor?
 
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dirthead

Banned
To use ULMB i still need at least 120 hz right? 60 for the frames i can see and 60 black frames in between.

Can i use it on any 120 hz+ monitor? Or it needs to be a hardware feature? I know RetroArch has such a mode via it's own software.

Also, is it going to damage or lower the life expectancy of the monitor?

Software black frame insertion like Retroarch's will work on any 120hz screen. It won't damage anything.

Technically, if you were playing a 30hz game like the arcade Rampage, you could even do black frame insertion at 60hz but you basically have an interlaced flickery ass image at that point.
 

AV

We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
Yep, don't overthink it. 144hz will really smooth out the experience. I have a 165hz and my partner loves it when she's working from home on it, as she's in your camp of scrolling while reading.
 

orborborb

Member
To use ULMB i still need at least 120 hz right? 60 for the frames i can see and 60 black frames in between.

Can i use it on any 120 hz+ monitor? Or it needs to be a hardware feature? I know RetroArch has such a mode via it's own software.

Also, is it going to damage or lower the life expectancy of the monitor?

Software Black Frame Insertion works on any 120hz monitor.

ULMB works without cutting your refresh rate in half like Black Frame Insertion does, but that also makes it more likely to create a double image since the higher the refresh rate the less time the pixels have to transition to their next color

so on my IPS xb271hu for example just turning on ULMB running at 120hz makes moving objects remain readable while in motion BUT they have a double image following them. If I simultaneously use software Black Frame Insertion in an emultor at 60hz the double image goes away but the image is dimmer and less color accurate than even my old CRT. Theoretically I should be able to get 72hz on the desktop with no motion blur with this 144hz monitor if BFI worked on the desktop but even 72hz isnt as smooth as the 85hz CRTs I got used to. OLED in VR headsets and some of the fastest TN panels can do 120hz without the double image but TN has the vertical viewing angle issues that personally drive me nuts and flickered OLED might not be bright enough to use outside of VR yet.

In other words I havent thrown out my CRTs yet but you can outperform them in any given dimension as long as you put up with some compromise is others. And the dream monitor that performs as well as a VR headset or CRT is tantalzingly close.
 
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AV

We ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space
Does the monitor provide this with just the 165hz/1ms treatment or is she using black frame insertion?
Nope, just using the monitor as-is. Of course, we're no experts, this is just her testimony. I notice the difference too even though it never bothered me much on 60hz panels.
 
27'' IPS/MVA 2560x1440
2x HDMI
sound
freesync
cheaper as possible good as possible

dreams? :)

system: I5 2500K, R9 280X
 
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ShirAhava

Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
Buy another CRT off ebay they are dirt cheap I also use one and cannot do without it avoid the flat screen ghetto at all costs
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Not interested in playing games at that high hz. I only care about the "ghosting/blurring free" desktop experience. Maybe also the scrolling in old 2D games via emulators (which is crystal clear on the CRT but really bad on any LCD i ever tested..

i've found playing emulators through a CRT to be a very nice and accurate nostalgic experience. running sound through a CRT, having NES audio pumping out of a CRT speaker, is an instant time trip back 30 years.

imo the sound playing through a TV tube does something to the audio signal that makes it sound like it used to. maybe that is because i used to mostly play audio through a CRT when i was a kid. there is something about the CRT display can transform the simplest emulation into a classic experience.
 
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nkarafo

Member
So i got the Alienware monitor. I'm pretty satisfied with it. At 240hz, the text is sharp enough to read it while scrolling but still leaves a faint trail as it moves. It's not nearly as good as the old CRT but it's million times better than regular 60hz modern displays. That's good enough for me until monitors finally reach CRT quality.

Also, it's good that i got a 240hz monitor because i tested 144hz and there's a small difference in text clarity, 144hz being noticeably more blurry. So the extra hz did worth the extra money.
 

Blam

Member
So i got the Alienware monitor. I'm pretty satisfied with it. At 240hz, the text is sharp enough to read it while scrolling but still leaves a faint trail as it moves. It's not nearly as good as the old CRT but it's million times better than regular 60hz modern displays. That's good enough for me until monitors finally reach CRT quality.

Also, it's good that i got a 240hz monitor because i tested 144hz and there's a small difference in text clarity, 144hz being noticeably more blurry. So the extra hz did worth the extra money.
I'm glad you found what you wanted. Sorta surprised to hear that the 240hz still has some trailing.
 
So i got the Alienware monitor. I'm pretty satisfied with it. At 240hz, the text is sharp enough to read it while scrolling but still leaves a faint trail as it moves. It's not nearly as good as the old CRT but it's million times better than regular 60hz modern displays. That's good enough for me until monitors finally reach CRT quality.

Also, it's good that i got a 240hz monitor because i tested 144hz and there's a small difference in text clarity, 144hz being noticeably more blurry. So the extra hz did worth the extra money.

Do You have any strobing mode in that monitor (ULMB if it has g-sync) ? Try enabling it and it should reduce movement trailing even more at the cost of brightness.
 

nkarafo

Member
Do You have any strobing mode in that monitor (ULMB if it has g-sync) ? Try enabling it and it should reduce movement trailing even more at the cost of brightness.
It's the freesync version (gsync was 200 euros extra) but i don't think it has any built in strobing mode.

I'm glad you found what you wanted. Sorta surprised to hear that the 240hz still has some trailing.
Trailing is almost gone if the text is white on a darker background. But there is some when the text is black and the background white.
 
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240Hz TN Gsync is the closest you'll get to CRT clarity.

[forget ULMB. It's only for those few games where you can get an absolute locked 100 minimum fps req. for strobing to work correctly. Any drop below 100 and the screen will look like total mess - in those moments you'll see a clear vivid double image much worse than the regular clean 240Hz mode]
 

nkarafo

Member
240Hz TN Gsync is the closest you'll get to CRT clarity.

[forget ULMB. It's only for those few games where you can get an absolute locked 100 minimum fps req. for strobing to work correctly. Any drop below 100 and the screen will look like total mess - in those moments you'll see a clear vivid double image much worse than the regular clean 240Hz mode]
I don't really care about playing games at those high frame rates. I'm mostly interested in having a clear picture while moving around on desktop/internet. Maybe emulators too but 60hz content has the same blur like in 60hz monitors. RetroArch's black insertion makes the blur go away completely (i was impressed actually) but dims the screen too much and ruins the colors.
 
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dirthead

Banned
I don't really care about playing games at those high frame rates. I'm mostly interested in having a clear picture while moving around on desktop/internet. Maybe emulators too but 60hz content has the same blur like in 60hz monitors. RetroArch's black insertion makes the blur go away completely (i was impressed actually) but dims the screen too much and ruins the colors.

Black frame insertion and ULMB only work on monitors that are so bright normally that you have to turn the brightness down.
 
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