How is emulating a system you own to play a game you own theft?
That doesn't make any sense.
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GAF, is Xenoblade getting snubbed?
- Thread starter Malvingt2
- Start date
That doesn't make any sense.
I think the WIi is a terrible console and I resent Nkntendo in a lot of ways, yet Xenoblade is a great game. It's a throwback to those RPGs that used to be made, the same kind of feelings you got when you put FF 7 in the dis tray, magic really.
The very idea that ME 3 won game of the years yet this didn't really shows games journalism for what it is - soulless.
The very idea that ME 3 won game of the years yet this didn't really shows games journalism for what it is - soulless.
There's ways to do that purely with what you own, not even downloading someone else's copy. However that might not be kosher with the DMCA (even if that IS an infamously hated piece of legislature), and I imagine for people who don't want to fuss with settings or want to be absolutely sure it runs "as intended" it still isn't an option they want to use.
It's actually really fascinating what places ME3 ISN'T winning at, and it's not like all awards are accounted for yet. Yeah, it may be running away with RPG of the year awards, but it's rather fascinating when Spike's VGA gives GotY to the Walking Dead and IGN to Journey. Seems to really be indicating how AAA games were this year.
lol, emulation is not theft.
I don't disagree with anything you say here.
I'm pretty certain the reason ME3 will be winning most awards over Xenoblade is because it's played by far more of the journalists voting. That said, I don't think there is an ideal solution since RPGs can take 100 hours to complete. You can't ask each journalist to play each RPG the same way a movie critic could spend a couple hours watching each noteworty film. At least not without a significant overhaul of how this stuff works.
With a finite amount of time journalists will play the games they have to review or the games that are most appealing to them. It's unfortunate, but their tastes in games gives them an inherent bias, as you say.
I just wish people realize it's their taste and not some malicious bias or bribery that causes this to happen. JRPGs won't win mainstream awards because they have fallen out of mainstream taste. Xenoblade was a great JRPG but it's full of plenty of JRPG quirks/tropes and it isn't groundbreaking enough to break into the mainstream and win RPG of the year.
A lot of emulators for disk based systems will use the actual game disks (via your DVD drive). I have never used Dolphin, but I have done that in the past for other systems like the Sega Saturn when my console's laser was dying.
Ya that's what I'm a bit concerned about. These reassurances that "it's ok if you have the game" or "it's ok if you delete it after 48 hours"... I'm not sure if they're legally based.
Nintendo also doesn't seem to like any workarounds even if they're just to play legally bought copies. I softmodded my wii so it could play imported games (removing region locking) but it just became so irritating as Nintendo kept trying to disable it with their updates and I just gave up.
This shouldn't matter unless it was considered in the previous years. A game should be up for awards for one year, whether it was 2010 or 2012.
MegaKungFuRadio
Member
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Endurance Run that everyone loves so much was born out of this very issue.
I've seen this SO MUCH that it's hard to be sure! Sorry!
You said emulation was theft. If you own the game and the system, you're not stealing anything, so it isn't theft.
There could be other gray area legal issues dealing with circumventing copy protection and other such things, but theft isn't one of them.
People call piracy theft (which a lot of people disagree with, but that's a different topic), but if you own the game and the system, you aren't pirating anything either.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Nah. There's been a certain element that continually uses loaded buzzwords like "modernizes" and "evolves" when it comes to XB, which are poison to such a varied genre that it's in. Backlash was inevitable as was forgetting just what the genres strengths are.
1st Course
Member
Theft according to who? Nintendo? Well according to Nintendo everything outside of the console ecosystem is a theft (including storing backups on PC):
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#roms
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#roms
It is. It may be overhyped, and I say that as someone who really loves the game, but it certainly is the best RPG of 2012. And it's definitely much, much better than ME3. So ultimately, it is the RPG of the year. But let's be real: it never had a chance to actually win that award anywhere. It's a Wii exclusive Japanese RPG.
EDIT: The fact that Gametrailers even outright said the race was between ME3 and Xenoblade, with the other three entries being pretty much irrelevant filler, is quite telling. It's pretty obvious why ME3 ultimately won the award. And it wasn't because it was actually better.
EDIT: The fact that Gametrailers even outright said the race was between ME3 and Xenoblade, with the other three entries being pretty much irrelevant filler, is quite telling. It's pretty obvious why ME3 ultimately won the award. And it wasn't because it was actually better.
cartman414
Member
Dolphin is different as in it doesn't take original wii discs.
Basically u will need a softmoded wii where u can dump your original disc to usb hdd, then transfer that to pc to play on dolphin.
If you only have the disc, and no wii, only way woudl be downloading an ios, which is illegal and not condoned.
My point was that those "systems" don't mean anything at all. They're essentially fluff thrown in so that it can keep some small connection to the RPG genre. The game is a shooting game at it's core and none of the stats or anything like that have any bearing on how successful you are. Quests are ultimately pointless filler (if you can really call them "quests" in the first place). Leveling also doesn't mean anything and really doesn't affect your overall power that much.
Either way, it's my opinion on the matter and while I appreciate that they have some RPG elements in there, it's not really an RPG, but a shooter like Gears of War trying to be an RPG.
MisterHero
Super Member
I think it is but that's okay. Xenoblade is incredible and people who've played it know it.
This is a really good demonstration of the disconnect of the Western and Eastern audiences. Not just among gamers, but journalists. Maybe even developers.
IIRC, someone at Monolith didn't even realize what a great game they'd made. They called it just an "experiment" for being so different from prior games. Of course, even NCL/NoA didn't even realize what a great game it was because they almost didn't share it with everyone.
If XB got a little more credit for how fresh and great it is, then maybe the localization wouldn't have been such a painful process. Do I blame Mass Effect 3? Naaaaah.
This is a really good demonstration of the disconnect of the Western and Eastern audiences. Not just among gamers, but journalists. Maybe even developers.
IIRC, someone at Monolith didn't even realize what a great game they'd made. They called it just an "experiment" for being so different from prior games. Of course, even NCL/NoA didn't even realize what a great game it was because they almost didn't share it with everyone.
If XB got a little more credit for how fresh and great it is, then maybe the localization wouldn't have been such a painful process. Do I blame Mass Effect 3? Naaaaah.
that was necessary
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Why should a game be forced to have shitty traditional, clunky RPG combat to be considered one? This aspect of ME3 should be applauded. I wonder if the combat was bad like ME1 or even turn-based if people would consider it an RPG then.
Face it, times have changed and genres are now hybrid more than anything else. This does not make an open world + racing game less of either genre, nor does it make a shooter + rpg game (like ME3) less of either genre.
generally speaking, western review sites and publications like to give the award to whatever is more 'art' or 'more than just a game' than anything else. that's why you saw bioshock getting more praise over super mario galaxy, or uncharted 2 over a crack in time, or grand theft auto iv over anything worth playing. journey and walking dead fit that criteria really well. the only ones in recent years that don't really fit this, in my mind, are mass effect 2 and gears of war.
shadowsdarknes
Member
I don't Xenoblade should be winning any GOTY awards. No doubt hype and general perception of a game plays into what some of the gaming population thinks about a game.
All of the real buzz for this game was in 2009-2011. It rode the hype train for a long time. I'm not going to support giving a GOTY award to a game that took 2 years to localize. Yes, some people didn't get to play it until 2012, but this game has been in full swing and should not get 3 years worth of new release praise. It's not winning a lot of GOTY awards because the hype and excitement was plentiful about a year ago. By the time it released here, gamers were just thankful to get to play it, after a massive backlash against Nintendo for being dumb about their localization of the game here in the states. And for that, I'm not going to support the game winning GOTY, regardless if it was the best game to be released this year.
All of the real buzz for this game was in 2009-2011. It rode the hype train for a long time. I'm not going to support giving a GOTY award to a game that took 2 years to localize. Yes, some people didn't get to play it until 2012, but this game has been in full swing and should not get 3 years worth of new release praise. It's not winning a lot of GOTY awards because the hype and excitement was plentiful about a year ago. By the time it released here, gamers were just thankful to get to play it, after a massive backlash against Nintendo for being dumb about their localization of the game here in the states. And for that, I'm not going to support the game winning GOTY, regardless if it was the best game to be released this year.
This thread has kinda run its course, but I'll just say it prompted me to check some obsessive lists I've kept, and it appears that 2012 is the worst year for English-released RPGs in the last decade for me. I didn't really think about it, but between the personal disappointments (Xenoblade, Last Story), the RPGs that weren't for me (Mass Effect, Devil Survivor, Pokemon, the G__R games), and games that are incredibly low priorities (FF13-2, Eliminage, Grimrock), there wasn't a single RPG I enjoyed. That's kinda crazy. Average is usually 7 per year, I wonder what happened? Next year looks to be much more up my alley, but it's pretty weird that I had to go all the way back to 2002 to find a comparable slump year.
Maybe you're tired of RPG tropes? Too high an expectations? I like Tales of Graces f well enough but only on a mechanical level.
I don't really pay attention to where the RPGs end up, I'm just kinda shocked that there wasn't a single one this year I enjoyed, that's never happened actually. It's actually really good for me though cuz my backlog is like whoa so I appreciate the opportunity to catch up, and next year looks great (Soul Hackers, Ni no Kuni, South Park, SMT4 maybe?????)
Edit: Yeah it's not a tropes thing I don't think, just a weird set of coincidental circumstances since last year and next year were/will be fine for my tastes. This year was just kind of a weird liminal period for me.
Edit: Yeah it's not a tropes thing I don't think, just a weird set of coincidental circumstances since last year and next year were/will be fine for my tastes. This year was just kind of a weird liminal period for me.
Phat Michael
Banned
Yep. Someone in a different thread said "it was the worst game ever made" - i told him that put it in line with Superman 64....
Phat Michael
Banned
I agree with this 100%. Basically, we are given an RPG with great graphics, sound and story - with the combat almost as good as gears of war with more strategy involved (Biotics/tech powers/cooldowns/etc) - and people complain its a shooter?
One thing i cant stand about JRPGs are the archaic random battle/combat system. I actually look forward to the big stand offs and battles in ME3 because its going to take some actual skill in overcoming the enemies rather than selecting "attack" from a menu and watching it happen.
I love what ME3 has done for RPGs - an interesting sci fi world, great combat, multiplayer and interesting characters that arent 10 year old boys with spiky hair named Edge Maverick.
pants
Member
It's okay to dislike JRPGs, really it is. It's another thing altogether to go through the mental gymnastics you are here in order to justify your opinion.
And "I love what ME3 has done for RPGs"? Maybe I'm just being pedantic, but I'd say what Mass Effect has done for RPGs if not Bioware period... especially as what ME3 specifically brought to the table was the most overblown reaction to an ending ever seen, and that's to an ending that really was terrible!
Because the stuff that generally makes the combat in RPGs clunky is also what generally makes the game a RPG or not. Stats, but more specifically stats not player skill that determines how good your character is at something. That is one of the cores of the genre and something none of the Mass Effects(well 2 and 3. ME1 is debatable) really have. Ergo they are not RPGs, but because the do have a many of the other RPG elements they are Action RPGs. Nothing is wrong with Action RPGs. If you value great shooting above clunky stat based shooting it seems the way to go.
As unlike Racing + Open World, RPG + Shooter do not go together it seems. They are like oil and water they just don't mix. Stat based shooting just does not seem to work or at least no one has figured out how to do it yet. Both Alpha Protocol and Deus Ex are good examples of that. They are great RPGs, but I don't think anyone will try to argue that they were anywhere close to great shooters. In fact if you only look at them as shooters they are closer to awful then they are to great.
So Bioware in order to try and make Mass Effect 2 and 3 good shooters ripped out the stats.(what little Mass Effect had) Which did make 3 a pretty good shooter, but not an RPG. As sad as it makes me, financially for Bioware it was probably for the best. Mass Effect as a series most likely wouldn't of become as big as it is if they kept with the stat based combat.
It's not that stats are inherently incompatible with shooters, it's that ACCURACY stats are inherently incompatible, or at least you need to tread carefully with. You can definitely still do damage and critical boosts, along with effects that affect character speed, reloading, etc. Basically I think you have to take the approach of augmenting skill, rather than hindering skill.
Though I wouldn't treat action RPGs as inherently a different genre: they're just one subgenre under the general RPG umbrella, just as something like Dragon Age Origins or Dragon Quest can be defined as traditional RPGs, or something like FFT would be called a tactical/strategy RPG. Saying it's "an action RPG, not an RPG" comes off as trying to deliberately segregate it or make it come off as inherently lesser.
Though I wouldn't treat action RPGs as inherently a different genre: they're just one subgenre under the general RPG umbrella, just as something like Dragon Age Origins or Dragon Quest can be defined as traditional RPGs, or something like FFT would be called a tactical/strategy RPG. Saying it's "an action RPG, not an RPG" comes off as trying to deliberately segregate it or make it come off as inherently lesser.
Except the Xenoblade combat and encounter system has very little in common with classic JRPG systems. There are no random encounters, no separate battle screens, combat isn't turn based, there are no consumables, everything is on cooldowns, you can move in realtime and positioning is important. It's basically a streamlined version of the World of Warcraft combat system, plus additional systems like tension, vision and chain attacks, minus consumables and MP.
That's a fair point. I was just thinking about how you could make a shooter/RPG and that would work. Does any game try a system like that?
Theoretically ME3 could of still been an RPG and not have changed the combat much, if at all. As Shepard is/was if I remember right Alliance Special Forces so the one thing we can assume about that character is he/she can handle a weapon. What Bioware could of done to make it and RPG is added in non-combat skills(ie hacking) to chose between. As I don't think there is a rule that says a game has to have combat stats to be an RPG.
Well thinking about it I guess I do view them as two different genres. Because as different as say Dragon Age Origins, Dragon Quest,(the ones I played) and Final Fantasy Tactics are they at least have one thing in common, the "RPG core" if you will. Which is that your character stats have more effect on the outcome then player skill does. Something you can't say about Mass Effect 3.
Anyway as for which is better. It was not my intention to say that RPGs are inherently better then Action RPGs or vice versa. That is mostly down to personal preference. Unlike a lot of people I don't say Mass Effect 3 isn't an RPG to try and make some kind of slight against it. A game can be a good/great game and be an Action RPG, just like a game can be a pile of shit and be an RPG.
For the record I think I should state that I think Mass Effect 3 is a pretty poor game for many reasons. I don't know if you were to dig through my post history if it not being a RPG was ever among them. As I recently altered my stance on that, as well as what defines a game as a RPG. As it stands today my opinion on Mass Effect 3 being an Action RPG doesn't factor into my dislike for that game. Because for the record I enjoyed Mass Effect 2 when it came out.
anotherVegan
Member
More dudebros played Mass Effect 3 and other games on their PSTriples and 360s than the Wii and its GameStop-exclusive Xenoblade. These same folk frequent GameSpot, IGN, and the like, and they probably don't read GAF. We should have the GAF awards, voted by us gamers.
Acquiescence
Member
I'm late to this thread and I skipped the ten pages, but how can the game be getting snubbed if it's still getting nominated for awards three years after it first came out? Personally, I'm sick to fucking death of hearing about Xenoblade by this stage. Let me guess, is it coming out in Australasia next year so we can all have the game's existence rammed into our craniums by its zealous fanbase for a forth consecutive year? Geez, give it a rest already.
That's a joke by the way - I know the game is out there already. It just seems that, with every passing year, the game gets released in a new region.
...
Actually, that's true isn't it.
That's a joke by the way - I know the game is out there already. It just seems that, with every passing year, the game gets released in a new region.
...
Actually, that's true isn't it.
Xilium
Member
I think one of the biggest issues JRPGs have is peoples assumptions that JRPGs haven't change and are all still menu-based, random encounter games.
Random battles has been gone from most mainstream JRPGs for some time now so I'm not sure why this is always brought up as a negative.
There's pretty much three different broad styles of combat systems you can use; Real-time, Turn-based, or some hybrid of the two (cooldown timer on attack/skills or on each individual character). JRPGs utilize all three, and again, have been for some time now.
Real-time - Nier, Dragon's Dogma, Demon's/Dark Souls, Tales of Graces/Vesperia, ect.
Turn-based - Valkyria Chronicles, Resonance of Fate, The Last Remnant, Pokemon, ect.
Hybrid - FFXIII/-2, Xenoblade, White Knight Chronicles/2, ect.
Within these broad categories, there's is a lot of variety in how each of their individual combat systems play out and I would argue a lot more variety than what you will find in their western counterparts. It just gets old seeing the tired "JRPGs haven't evolved" sentiment all the time.
Yeah it seems like people who disparage JRPGs don't understand how diverse they actually are. The determining point of what is an RPG are visible numbers that determine how good a character is at certain skills and that can pretty much be slotted in anywhere. Due to this very simple requirement the systems, subsystems, design choices and game flow can be whatever they want and still be considered RPG and leads to games like FF10 (turn based), D* Souls (action real-time), Valkyrie Profile (real-time within turn-based) and Fire Emblem (strategic positional turn-based) to all fall under the RPG umbrella despite being wildly different. WRPGs also fall under the RPG umbrella obviously, with the more prominent ones being the open-world real-time action games like Skyrim.
I was shopping around for gift ideas for my nephew and I was browsing Metacrtic to see how user review scores stacked up against critic scores. The majority of scores are rubbish because they barely register above 20 entries.
While with critics Xenoblade earned a score of 92, among 263 users the score was 8.3.
I would say based on that Xenoblade isn't being unfairly snubbed.
Just for perspective.
Last Story: Critics 80 Users (60 total) 8.3
Just Dance: Critics 49 Users (107 Total) 8.0
Rayman Origins: Critics 92 Users (68 total) 7.6
Zack and Wiki Critics 87 Users (99 total) 8.8
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers Critics 66 Users (46 Total) 8.0
Sports Resort Critics 80 Users (99 Total) 7.9
Monster Hunter Tri: Critics 84 Users (157 Total) 8.7
Aside from Last Story which I only selected because of it's relationship to project rainfall all the other games were titles I was considering.
While with critics Xenoblade earned a score of 92, among 263 users the score was 8.3.
I would say based on that Xenoblade isn't being unfairly snubbed.
Just for perspective.
Last Story: Critics 80 Users (60 total) 8.3
Just Dance: Critics 49 Users (107 Total) 8.0
Rayman Origins: Critics 92 Users (68 total) 7.6
Zack and Wiki Critics 87 Users (99 total) 8.8
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers Critics 66 Users (46 Total) 8.0
Sports Resort Critics 80 Users (99 Total) 7.9
Monster Hunter Tri: Critics 84 Users (157 Total) 8.7
Aside from Last Story which I only selected because of it's relationship to project rainfall all the other games were titles I was considering.
H_Prestige
Banned
You can have stat progression without the needlessly convoluted battle systems of typical JRPGs. I was playing the nino kuni demo last week and I spent more time looking at the HUD than what was actually happening on screen. Ditto for FFXIII. The worst experience I had was Xenosaga, where the battles felt like math homework instead of fun.
I have a suspicion, based on a few things, that if such a vote occurred Mass Effect 3 would also win GAF's RPG of the year.
Call it the Metal Gear Solid 4 effect.
There's NO way
There is a chance higher than it should be that it might win.
captmorgan
Banned
I agree, and if GAF has a GOTY vote, Im picking ME3
Reading the negative user reviews on Metacritic, I'm not sure I'd put much stock in the user score.
If your looking for someone to disagree with you on that it won't be me. I haven't been a fan of most recent JRPGs. A lot of RPGs have awful combat systems and a lot of good ones. My point was that when it comes to shooters it seems you can have a good shooter or a good RPG with "clunky" shooting. Though after I posted that Eusis did bring up a good example of how you could make a game that was a good RPG and Shooter.
I think your right.
It would be between Mass Effect 3 and Xenoblade I think, but ME3 would come out on top. This was an awful year for RPGs so I can't think of anything that would give ME3(no matter how much I dislike that game) a run in popularity this year and while a lot of people hated ME3 for whatever ever reasons I don't know how many of them would vote for say Xenoblade.