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[slow-twitch]

I started running 3 years ago in a random shoe that i thought looked cool (Mizuno Wave Inspire) without any research. After many injuries, I eventually went to Road Runner sports to have my stride analyzed, where they decided I needed a stability shoe (Saucony hurricane iso). I also fell for the molded in$ole$, which honestly felt better, but who knows.

Since then I've been injury free, going through multiple pairs of stability Sauconys, but for all I know, most of my previous injuries were from being new to running and possibly from picking a random shoe. Well I'm due for new shoes and my inserts are worn out. I kind of want to give a lighter, neutral shoe a try, without their expensive molded insoles.

Is this a bad idea? Is there any merit to using a stability shoe? Are inserts a sham?

TLDR: wondering if the stability thing is BS and I should run in a neutral shoe.

I say go with a lighter shoe, you'll run faster. If you have some trouble with it, start with only using lighter shoes for fast workouts, run your base mileage in your regular bulky trainers.

Yes, the stability thing is complete bullshit.

You are right, people injures themselves early on because they're new to running (bones and tendons adaptations are slow). Then they read about the under/over pronation thing and think they have a problem and the problem can be corrected using special soles or shoes. Shoes company jumped on that more than a decade ago but it's complete BS.

All studies show minor variations in lower extremity alignment are not a risk factor for injury. [1][2]

Yes, some people have a very bad gait and that's bad. Most people don't though. And your body can get used to pretty much any gait. Unless you are already maxed on your running genetic potential and you need to have 100% perfect mechanical form to conserve energy to run faster, don't bother altering your form or having it analysed. Beside I wouldn't trust the average physiotherapist for that, much less a shoe store clerk.

On cushionning it's less clear. Not all studies show that it actually reduces impact (more like a redistribution). Also reducing impact could be actually bad in the end, providing less adaptation, mostly in bone density. Studies show that people who have a low peak impact have the same likelihood of getting injured as those with a high peak impact force. [3]

What this means is a high impact is obviously bad if you're jumping from the third floor, you'll break something for sure. However that's not what is happening when running. The impact forces and stresses acting on cartilage, bones, ligaments, and tendons during running are typically within an acceptable range. But it does appear that some kind of cushionning is good, or else all WR would be run in minimalist shoes.

The general rules for shoes are:

• Run into something comfortable to you.
• Run in whatever stride is natural/comfortable to you.
• You can get use to anything over time.
• The lighter the shoes, the faster you run.

If you want a decent overview of the current science on this subject read this, it's a good start.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/p...-in-runners-a-prospective-study-of-alignment/
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pubmed/17883966-risk-factors-for-overuse-injuries-in-runners/
[3] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232123540_Impact_forces_in_running

 

[mdsfx]

Are the shoes/inserts you are using now too expensive? If you've gone so long injury-free, why would you change?

The inserts are very expensive and I think the shoes are a bit heavy due to all of the support.

I say go with a lighter shoe, you'll run faster. If you have some trouble with it, start with only using lighter shoes for fast workouts, run your base mileage in your regular bulky trainers.

That's what I'm thinking of doing. I also just finished reading through the article in your last paragraph. Very interesting and it's kind of what I've been suspecting.

 

[mdsfx]

This is the wear on my stability shoes after 450 miles (Saucony Hurricane ISO 2). Outer heel is worn way down as is the center at the balls of my feet (tread is basically gone there!).

Edit: Ordering a shoe that is a step down in terms of stability from the same manufacturer. I'll keep this gradual to see what happens.

 

[Horsefly]

Aw man, so it's all in my head?

 

[tmarg]

As much as I like running in light shoes, they don't last very long for me at all. I bought a pair while training for my first 1/2 and went through the tread almost completely in ~5 weeks. So now I only use them for special occasions.

 

[isaacnukem]

So I finished my first run. 10K, I got an hour and a minute. I'm glad of what I've accomplished, my only practice run was an 11K last Sunday. Feels good!

 

[Horsefly]

So I finished my first run. 10K, I got an hour and a minute. I'm glad of what I've accomplished, my only practice run was an 11K last Sunday. Feels good!

That's awesome, congrats

 

[BrassDragon]

Oh boy, some very strong (and contrary) opinions on the value of stability/motion control shoes here.

I find recreational runners worrying about minute differences in shoe weight hilarious - as if that makes a difference at this level of fitness. All quality shoes use the same light space-age materials by now. But we all have our hang-ups... shoe talk is really the runner's equivalent of gym broscience and I don't want to drag this thread down into the geek wars raging on other forums but would like to make this point:

When picking shoes, don't let whatever RunningGAF, science papers, Nike marketing and/or blogs say be the deciding factor. Go to a good running store and test every shoe for yourself. Check back with the store after you've got some mileage on those soles and verify that they're still good for you. If you get injured or run into problems, first and always consider that your own skill, conditioning or strength might be the problem before you start blaming equipment... you can't buy your way out of sticking points with something as personal and individual as running. People were doing miraculous athletic feats for centuries with no technical clothing, proper diets or digital sensors. If ancient Greeks could run across mountains nude on meals of beef and olives, you can survive 10k with whatever equipment you like and can afford.

Trust your own body and the observations of the store assistant... that's worth more than whatever we type here.

 

[mdsfx]

My concern is has more to do with the bulkiness of my stability shoe. I'm not saying it's holding me back, they just feel clunky to me, especially around the heel, and I'd like to try something new. I also don't necessarily want to be tethered to $120 custom insoles for the rest of my life, so I want to explore something different.

I am seriously doubting the advice I was given so long ago in terms of how much stability I really need. If I can find myself running comfortably in neutral shoes, it also opens up a LOT more choices!

*****

Side note: 16-mile long run done (8:25/mi pace) and it felt...EASY! I couldn't believe it, but the weather was cooperating, I was properly hydrated, had a banana before I left and a few shot bloks while I was out. I felt like I could've run another 4-5. I even did it with my stock shoe inserts just for the hell of it, which I had never used. Gotta love days like this when everything clicks!

 

[BrassDragon]

I think we're going to see some very interesting things happening in the shoe market when custom 3D printing becomes integral to production. Adidas is already gearing up for this - now it's just cosmetic choices but eventually, you should be able to get your toe box and heel shape down to the exact size and thickness you prefer.

Until then, trust your personal experience.

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

Damn, been making good progress but I'm feeling some pain on the inside part of my shins lately, one leg more severe than the other. Nothing I can't push through right now, but when walking down stairs I definitely feel this localized pressure/pain. Feels like the bone itself is tender more than the muscle is sore, so I'm worried I don't already have a stress fracture. In two months I've only run about 25 miles total, surely my bones aren't that lame?

I tend to feel the pain when I first start my runs and then either it goes away or I don't notice is as the run goes on. I stretch before and after every run.

Any ideas? Bah.

 

[BrassDragon]

Does that pain go away if you jog a few minutes? Then it's probably shin splints (which fades when the muscle warms and is far more common than stress fractures in runners.)

If you truly have a problem with the bone, you won't even be able to start a jog and should see a physician asap.

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

Does that pain go away if you jog a few minutes? Then it's probably shin splints (which fades when the muscle warms and is far more common than stress fractures in runners.)

If you truly have a problem with the bone, you won't even be able to start a jog and should see a physician asap.

I mean the pain and ache doesn't fully go away, but it's manageable for sure. It's just been fairly persistent for a couple weeks now. Even days I don't run like today, if I'm walking around I'll feel the localized pressure on the inside of my shin every now and again, and if I'm walking down some stairs I'll feel it on the way down. It just feels tender. If I press firmly into my inner shine bone it hurts, like the bone is bruised.

Could it be tendinitis? I hadn't run for years prior to this recent training plan. Maybe it's the shoes? My shoes feel a little big, they're not snug against my heel.

 

[Fistwell]

There's a very, very good chance it's shin splints. Too much too soon.

 

[MrOogieBoogie]

There's a very, very good chance it's shin splints. Too much too soon.

Damn. I guess it's not the worst thing in the world but I didn't think I over exerted myself. Only ran three days a week, very slowly increasing mileage per the program.

Any advice for shin splints?

 

[Fistwell]

Damn. I guess it's not the worst thing in the world but I didn't think I over exerted myself. Only ran three days a week, very slowly increasing mileage per the program.

Any advice for shin splints?

If it's shin splints, it is the sign that you did too much too soon. Bones not used to the repeated impact or something? I don't remember what's the typical treatment for shin splints but a dose of RICE won't hurt (rest, ice, compression, elevation). Generally, I think going a little easier, some massages, maybe some arnica cream. I don't know if foam rolling helps? I think some people just run through the pain. I don't think I'd do that, but shin splints are fairly common and not a huge deal. I'd go see a physician if the pain persists though.

 

[BrassDragon]

If it's not infected (red and heated skin, swollen muscle), you can relieve it by massaging the painful area with a cold pack or cube. After a few days of this, switch to treating with heat (like hot showers or baths) so the blood can flow properly again.

It's really not a big deal, just take it easier with the training progression.

 

[slow-twitch]

Go to a good running store and test every shoe for yourself.

I don't see any ongoing war here. We both say the same thing.

The general rules for shoes are:
-Run into something comfortable to you.
-Run in whatever stride is natural/comfortable to you.
-You can get use to anything over time.
-The lighter the shoes, the faster you run.

That's one of the reasons I never provide shoes recommendation. You have to figure out what you prefer yourself, that's all that matters.

All this emphasis on shoes is purely for commercial reasons. A runner only have to buy Lydiard or Daniel's book once. Shoes must be bought yearly, so they are continuously hyped. It's like how detergents are supposedly better every year.

 

[BrassDragon]

I don't see any ongoing war here. We both say the same thing.

Nah, GAF is good people.. just used to things like minimalist evangelism turning running communities into mosh pits.

 

[isaacnukem]

That's awesome, congrats

Thanks

 

[mdsfx]

So I finished my first run. 10K, I got an hour and a minute. I'm glad of what I've accomplished, my only practice run was an 11K last Sunday. Feels good!

Missed this one during my stability shoe obsession/rant. Nice job! I'll never forget how awesome I felt finishing my first race. Such a great feeling of accomplishment. You'll be chasing that dragon for years of you keep running

 

[FooTemps]

So I finished my first run. 10K, I got an hour and a minute. I'm glad of what I've accomplished, my only practice run was an 11K last Sunday. Feels good!

That's great! Good pace for a first race!

 

[Gemüsestäbchen]

Been finding it hard to get back into a rhythm this summer - I've been blaming the heat - but Tbh I've just been plain lazy and lacking discipline... I can't bring myself to do any runs longer than 6 miles / 10K and I've plateaued somewhat...

Though kept with my "10K every month" for last four months so far and completed one over the weekend back in London.

It was in the Olympic Park area in the East end, in the Velopark, normally a race track loop for cyclists. My first error - I hate laps - and this race ended up being 6 x 1 miles on this... I also didn't factor in that the loop would undulate and the last loop back to the finish was a hellish three hill incline and decline mess. And finally just my luck, sun beams down on me, I threw water in my face haha.

Finished with 58:14, which was disappointing but not surprising. Shin splints a bit after too so I need to def get back to some regularity... Never this course again!

 

[funkystudent]

3 months till marathon and I think I got a ingrown toenail that might need to be taken care of because its a pain!

 

[melonrabbit]

Somehow got talked into attempting a 8K.

Now, I know I need new shoes. Any advice on brands/styles that can help out with training for this endeavor.

 

[mdsfx]

Somehow got talked into attempting a 8K.

Now, I know I need new shoes. Any advice on brands/styles that can help out with training for this endeavor.

Go to a running store!

 

[FooTemps]

Somehow got talked into attempting a 8K.

Now, I know I need new shoes. Any advice on brands/styles that can help out with training for this endeavor.

Try on shoes, recommending shoes on the internet is pretty useless.

 

[soxinthebox]

Haven't been able to get out for as many runs lately due to a tonne of rain in my area but Sunday had clear skies so I went out for a 14km run. Was completely wrecked after and in a daze which hasn't happened in ages. Annoying how fast you can lose that fitness but I know I'll get it back again when we get some clearer weather.

 

[melonrabbit]

Go to a running store!

Will find one. Thanks.

Try on shoes, recommending shoes on the internet is pretty useless.

Gotcha.

How much should I budget for quality shoes?

 

[mdsfx]

After they check out how you run, they'll recommend multiple brands and models for you to try. Be honest about how comfortable they each feel and definitely try them on the treadmill there. Take your time.

Generally a newer pair of decent shoes go for $100-120. Last year's models might be closer to $70-80 if they have them available. The nice thing is that once you find a shoe that works for you, you can buy it online in the future at a discount. I usually buy the previous model every time, spending $70 instead of $120+.

 

[melonrabbit]

^ Okay. I should be able to swing that.

Thank you.

 

[Hyoukokun]

3 months till marathon and I think I got a ingrown toenail that might need to be taken care of because its a pain!

You should check with a podiatrist in case it needs to be taken care of surgically. It takes a while to recover afterward, but if you get in sooner, they may be able to take care of it without surgery.

I had to have the surgery on both of my big toes. Was out of commission for running / hiking for a few weeks after in both cases, but they haven't given me any grief since.

 

[isaacnukem]

So I saw the results and out of almost 3000 runners I finished just inside the top 10%. Feels great.

Missed this one during my stability shoe obsession/rant. Nice job! I'll never forget how awesome I felt finishing my first race. Such a great feeling of accomplishment. You'll be chasing that dragon for years of you keep running

Yeah, it feels quite good! Now I really want to dig in to the other kinds of training like tempo and speed and interval.

That's great! Good pace for a first race!

Thanks! I'm actually bothered that according to Google an average pace of a 10 KM is 45 minutes.

 

[massoluk]

So I finished my first run. 10K, I got an hour and a minute. I'm glad of what I've accomplished, my only practice run was an 11K last Sunday. Feels good!

10k in an hour in the first try is amazing, tbh. Usually my comfortable is at 1:15-1:20.

 

[Hyoukokun]

Thanks! I'm actually bothered that according to Google an average pace of a 10 KM is 45 minutes.

That sounds fishy to me. This Livestrong article suggests an average of 51:48, and that's for a 25-year-old male:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/536048-typical-10k-times-of-a-runner-or-jogger/

45min on a 10K would be something like a 7:15 min/mile pace, which is (in the grand scheme of things) a lot faster than average.

I am planning to run my own first 10K in September. I've got it down to something like 55min on a treadmill, but I need to get better at pacing myself when running on the road; I tend to start too fast and burn out before the end.

 

[Fisico]

I am planning to run my own first 10K in September. I've got it down to something like 55min on a treadmill, but I need to get better at pacing myself when running on the road; I tend to start too fast and burn out before the end.

If your race isn't too small there should be people with huge flags indicating which time they will do (it may go as low as 40mn and as high as 1h15mn with some in between), if that's the case try to see which one could be a realistic objective (50 maybe ?) and just run along.

 

[Fistwell]

45min on a 10K would be something like a 7:15 min/mile pace, which is (in the grand scheme of things) a lot faster than average.

45 minutes is exactly 4:30/k. It' one of the typical steps. It's neither fast nor slow. It's all relative to where you're at right now yourself. It's one of the many steps on the ways from 6min/k, to 5:30, to 5, to 4:30, to 4, to 3:30, to 3 etc. (60min, 55, 50, 45, 40, 35, 30...)

Edit: Celtics suck!

 

[Bread]

I'm going into my 3rd week of running, first time I've run this much since high school! I've been doing something like 6 minutes on, 4-5 minutes walking for the past week or two, and I actually made it 12 minutes straight last Friday which I was super proud of! I'm on my way friends!

 

[killroy87]

Anyone here run with Airpods? How do they fare in terms of battery life and staying in the ears?

 

[isaacnukem]

10k in an hour in the first try is amazing, tbh. Usually my comfortable is at 1:15-1:20.

Well it was comfortable for me only because I walked at some point, heh. I wan to be able to run 10 KM all the way through before I try and push for longer distances.

That sounds fishy to me. This Livestrong article suggests an average of 51:48, and that's for a 25-year-old male:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/536048-typical-10k-times-of-a-runner-or-jogger/

45min on a 10K would be something like a 7:15 min/mile pace, which is (in the grand scheme of things) a lot faster than average.

I am planning to run my own first 10K in September. I've got it down to something like 55min on a treadmill, but I need to get better at pacing myself when running on the road; I tend to start too fast and burn out before the end.

I wonder where the study of the average was made, and if it consists of regular folks or competitive runners. I have never ran on a treadmill, is it good for training?

 

[isaacnukem]

I checked another site with results and they confirmed my suspicions: I actually finished under an hour with a few seconds to spare according to my chip. I have a question for everyone:

How do gun times and chip times affect race outcomes?

I'm going into my 3rd week of running, first time I've run this much since high school! I've been doing something like 6 minutes on, 4-5 minutes walking for the past week or two, and I actually made it 12 minutes straight last Friday which I was super proud of! I'm on my way friends!

Congratulations! What's your schedule like? Are you following a program?

 

[5taquitos]

Yo RunningGAF, I justed started running again after being sedentary for far too long. I've started off light and my shoes are decent, and I try to stretch properly before and after, but my knees have been killing me. Any stretches or exercises to recommend?

I'm a pretty big guy (6'2" ~220lbs) so I'm sure that has something to do with it.

 

[isaacnukem]

Yo RunningGAF, I justed started running again after being sedentary for far too long. I've started off light and my shoes are decent, and I try to stretch properly before and after, but my knees have been killing me. Any stretches or exercises to recommend?

I'm a pretty big guy (6'2" ~220lbs) so I'm sure that has something to do with it.

I don't know what they call it but you can hold your knees one at a time in front of you and bend them backwards for 16 counts. I personally don't stretch or do any exercises, I just run.

Maybe it's the way you land your steps, do you know how you do it? You should aim to land your feet in a flat position.

 

[Bread]

Congratulations! What's your schedule like? Are you following a program?

Thanks! I've just been running every day after work for 15-20 minutes so far. Not really following a program but I'm open to suggestions.

 

[isaacnukem]

Thanks! I've just been running every day after work for 15-20 minutes so far. Not really following a program but I'm open to suggestions.

The way I did it is I target distances. For the first week, I do 3km. Every week after that, I add 500 meters. Now these following things are important:

1. You should first try to jog on a pace so slow you can hold a conversation without losing breath. Don't worry that it's slow, the point is to help you gain endurance and build the muscles on your feet, and this is the best and surefire way to do it. There will come a point where you will feel like you're not working your feet anymore and you'll automatically adjust your speed.

2. Breathing. This was the gamechanger for me. You should learn how to inhale and exhale while running. The first time I figured this out was when I was on my 3.5km week, and when I did, I finished the whole distance without stopping. I feel like most people who run don't realize this valuable thing helps them save a lot of energy and minimize pain.

 

[midramble]

So a friend convinced me to sign up for a marathon for December 3rd (Sacramento CA CIM). I started running last week. I'm at doing 2 5ks a week and walking 5 miles the off days. The furthest I have ever run when I was at my most fit was a 10 miler.

At this rate do you guys think I'll be able to complete in December or am I already dead?

I'm also losing weight at the same time (dieting). 5'8" 189 lbs 28% body fat and dropping. Hoping to get to at least 18% by the run. Mainly because my weight is hurting the knees near the end of 5ks.

 

[Bread]

The way I did it is I target distances. For the first week, I do 3km. Every week after that, I add 500 meters. Now these following things are important:

1. You should first try to jog on a pace so slow you can hold a conversation without losing breath. Don't worry that it's slow, the point is to help you gain endurance and build the muscles on your feet, and this is the best and surefire way to do it. There will come a point where you will feel like you're not working your feet anymore and you'll automatically adjust your speed.

2. Breathing. This was the gamechanger for me. You should learn how to inhale and exhale while running. The first time I figured this out was when I was on my 3.5km week, and when I did, I finished the whole distance without stopping. I feel like most people who run don't realize this valuable thing helps them save a lot of energy and minimize pain.

Great thanks for the tips, I'll try those out today.

 

[5taquitos]

I don't know what they call it but you can hold your knees one at a time in front of you and bend them backwards for 16 counts. I personally don't stretch or do any exercises, I just run.

Maybe it's the way you land your steps, do you know how you do it? You should aim to land your feet in a flat position.

Thanks for the tips, I'll check my form when I go tomorrow.

 

[Fisico]

So a friend convinced me to sign up for a marathon for December 3rd (Sacramento CA CIM). I started running last week. I'm at doing 2 5ks a week and walking 5 miles the off days. The furthest I have ever run when I was at my most fit was a 10 miler.

At this rate do you guys think I'll be able to complete in December or am I already dead?

I'm also losing weight at the same time (dieting). 5'8" 189 lbs 28% body fat and dropping. Hoping to get to at least 18% by the run. Mainly because my weight is hurting the knees near the end of 5ks.

Well depends of how fast you'll progress.

You're very much at the starting line for now and it's clearly too early for you to run a marathon in December in a proper way.
But as a challenge/to finish it can be done (expect to walk and/or take a very long time and/or suffer though) two run a week and good walking the off day are a good thing, make sure to don't overexert yourself which is pretty common when you want to progress faster than your body is able to handle.
It's fine to trim the fat also but be sure to eat enough, if you weren't running/walking that much before then your body will need calories now more than before, by running you will lose fat anyway.

Continue at that pace, gradually increase the distance/time of your two weekly run (like adding 0.5km every week) and always listen to your body, if something begins to hurt it can only gets worse later on so don't do that "Oh well it's not too bad" thing than many does when they start.

If somehow running becomes too boring you can also practice some road bike, it makes for a nice change and is as good as running when training, only downside is that you need around twice the time for the same benefit (but this is much easier than running).

 

[panda-zebra]

How do gun times and chip times affect race outcomes?

Gun is official results. Chip is for your own use, so you know how long it actually took to complete and how you fared over the distance vs the others and not how much extra time it took everyone to shuffle over the start line

So a friend convinced me to sign up for a marathon for December 3rd (Sacramento CA CIM). I started running last week. I'm at doing 2 5ks a week and walking 5 miles the off days. The furthest I have ever run when I was at my most fit was a 10 miler.

At this rate do you guys think I'll be able to complete in December or am I already dead?

When you say started running last week, you mean went back to it? You have a history of running?

Marathon is not a distance to take lightly, but it depends how you go about it and what you want from it. Anyone who can run 8 or 10 miles could complete a marathon, but it might not be be pretty at times and maybe more of an ultra runner's mentality would be required for some as a mission to get over the line rather than to achieve a certain time.

4 months out might seem like a long time but it really isn't, 16 weeks is a good amount of time to ease into marathon training mode from doing your normal weekly routine.

I'm no expert (far from it, I've only raced 2 and 1st one injured) but what I like in what you're currently doing is the walking - when I trained for my last marathon (first proper go at one) I did as much walking in terms on hours on feet as long slow running, or tried to at least, and sometimes tried to chain them together to have a good 5 hours out and about. I think it helps loads, just not everybody can find the time to run and walk 6-10 hours a week.

So you've got those 2 weekly 5ks, personally I'd leave one of those as is, run it at a comfortable but useful pace, and the other I'd run very slow and steady and up the kms by 1 or 2 each week, and continue with the walks.

A lot of these training plans I see have people only run up to 18 or 20 miles max as their longest run then taper. I've seen some friends falter with that approach, doing the walk of shame for the last 5 or 6 miles. That must be horrible after weeks of training and thinking you were going in prepared. Personally I'd want to know I had the distance in the bag and be up to 25 miles at a very steady pace a month before, then I'd taper and feel that there were no unknowns.

IMO, you can only really figure out your fuelling and get a feel for that horrible 18-20 mile transition by being there and doing it, I wouldn't want the first time I'd experiences that to be race day, it could end badly. So maybe do something like that, see what gels or whatever work best for you and don't leave you with a dodgy stomach (SiS gels, medjool dates and salted pretzels for me) and just try to keep it comfortable and fun at a super steady pace on those long runs. If it's Summer where you are now, at least you have cooler weather to look forward to as your miles build up

Checked the race, looks a good one. Nice & flat with negative elevation. That will definitely help!

EDIT: Urgh, top of the shop