Game of Thrones Jon Snow ( Season 7-8) vs Jamie Lannister ( both hand intact)

Jon Snow vs Jamie Lannister


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Monsterkillah

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Since GOT S8 is upon us....im going to made this interesting topic....

Jon and Jamie both are the greatest fiercest warrior in the North and Kings Landing





Who will win in a fight?

The King in the North or the Kingslayer ?

Both at their peak condition ( Jamie with both hand and Jon in latter season when he became a greater fighter)
 

Fbh

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Is John that good? Unlike Jamie he is almost always in need of saving
 

Jon Neu

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Jon has been shown to have unnatural strength when he is angry, so in a physical battle I side with him.

But with the sword in their hands, Jaime is the best swordman. At least in the books.

In an overall battle without rules, depends on the context. If Ghost is nearby, Jaime is fucked.
 

Lionel Richie

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Jamie all day erryday and it's not even close, dude's a boss and he's seen some shit. Jon Snow is a preposterous Marty Stu and you should reexamine your life if you think he's anywhere near Jamie in sheer badassery.
 

Miku Miku

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Jon's a commander and inspires people. He is not known for being the best swordsman of all time. Jamie is.
 

EviLore

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Jaime, but he doesn't really have many on-screen feats. Jon's pretty good for a wee lad:


25 kills in the Battle of the Bastards, and two Others in duels.
 
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daveonezero

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Jamie. I think you have clear cut top 6 or so at their peak in one vs one combat.

Jamie
Braun
Mountain
Hound
Lady Briann
Oberim
Drogo
Early Dario (new dude is a douche)

It’s sort of like MMA any day these could be jumbled up and one could beat another.
 
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Miku Miku

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Jamie. I think you have clear cut top 6 or so at their peak in one vs one combat.

Jamie
Braun
Mountain
Hound
Lady Briann
Oberim
Drogo
Early Dario (new dude is a douche)

It’s sort of like MMA any day these could be jumbled up and one could beat another.
I don't think Braun is able to beat anyone on this list.
 

daveonezero

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I don't think Braun is able to beat anyone on this list.
I believe he said if he was perfect he would have fought the mountain he just didn’t want to do that not worth it. He maybe down on the second tier where I’d put Jon Snow too.
 

Fbh

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Jon's a commander and inspires people.
He isn't very good at that either. Seems like most who follow him do so out of friendship rather than "inspiration" and his plans tend to be complete shit that would get everyone killed if at this point he didn't have some extremely thick plot armour
 

Jon Neu

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He isn't very good at that either. Seems like most who follow him do so out of friendship rather than "inspiration" and his plans tend to be complete shit that would get everyone killed if at this point he didn't have some extremely thick plot armour
He got himself to be "elected" Lord Commander and later King in the North while being a bastard.

And he does what he sees as honorable and good. He is just too much like Ned, that's why he got killed, but is also why he is a respectable leader.

But you know who doesn't get killed? That little 13 year old girl that is basically given entire armies, dragons and powerful allies out of nowhere. She is not smart, she is not good in combat, she is terrible at being a leader, just happens to have received 3 dragon eggs that eclosioned because reasons.
 

Miku Miku

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He isn't very good at that either. Seems like most who follow him do so out of friendship rather than "inspiration" and his plans tend to be complete shit that would get everyone killed if at this point he didn't have some extremely thick plot armour
True but he gets some major points for being the first to even recognize who his real enemy is, and make an alliance with the wildlings which was virtually impossible. And he was inspiring at Hardhome and while defending the wall.
 
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Jon Neu

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Jamie all day erryday and it's not even close, dude's a boss and he's seen some shit.
He's seen some shit?

Jon has warged into a wolf, has been with the free folk beyond the wall, has seen and fought against Giants, has seen and fought a Wight, has been murdered and brought back to life.

The only relevant things Jaime has seen are the Mad King and his sister cunt.
 

Miku Miku

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He's seen some shit?

Jon has warged into a wolf, has been with the free folk beyond the wall, has seen and fought against Giants, has seen and fought a Wight, has been murdered and brought back to life.

The only relevant things Jaime has seen are the Mad King and his sister cunt.
I think Jamie saw more large battles, duels and elite swordsmen in their prime. The whole Targaryean dynasty was not even around in Jon's time. They have both seen different things.
 

Miku Miku

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In the great scheme of things, Jon has seen and experienced things literally Jaime would not even believe.
He believes. He just wasnt at the wall to see it. Jamie is going north because he believes it.

Speaking of these two, it'll be neat to see them talk to each other. Last time they saw each other was like episode 1 when Jamie teased Jon for never swimging his sword at a real person. Times have changed!
 

Jon Neu

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He believes. He just wasnt at the wall to see it. Jamie is going north because he believes it.
Jaime in the show believes it now just because Jon went on a suicide mission to the Lands of always winter to bring a wight to King's Landing.

The point is: Jon has seen and experienced things that just a very small number of people have seen or experienced. Otherworldly things that people like Jaime wouldn't believe without proof.

Being at tourneys or battles against normal humans don't compare to that.
 

EviLore

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He got himself to be "elected" Lord Commander and later King in the North while being a bastard.

And he does what he sees as honorable and good. He is just too much like Ned, that's why he got killed, but is also why he is a respectable leader.

But you know who doesn't get killed? That little 13 year old girl that is basically given entire armies, dragons and powerful allies out of nowhere. She is not smart, she is not good in combat, she is terrible at being a leader, just happens to have received 3 dragon eggs that eclosioned because reasons.
Privilege Dragons :messenger_smiling_with_eyes:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/game-of-thrones-no-book-discussion-ot-season-7-read-the-op.1403817/page-231#post-245482099

She's only a "good queen" compared to some historically abysmal recent examples, and has not demonstrated capable leadership or sound judgment very often; she's just usually rewarded for bad decisions as opposed to everyone else on the show. Dany's little more than a posturing, entitled messianic conqueror reliant on her privilege dragons, her (TV) fire immunity, her thirst entourage (RIP Bold Barry though), and her "freed" slaves (who are not equipped at all, no pun intended, to exercise that alleged freedom, and function no differently; freeing them was for Dany's benefit, not theirs, if it didn't come with viable alternatives to serving her beyond just the words).

She's still supposed to be young, yes (so is Jon), and she's learning on the job, sure (so is Jon), but if she were finally thrust into a position of real Westerosi political power...let's say winning the Iron Throne, after 7 seasons of intense experience and on-the-job training and thoughtful advisory leading up, but minus her dragon "I win" buttons for any otherwise insurmountable roadblocks like back in Essos, and swapping out her brainwashed Unsullied and Dothraki for very different Westerosi liege lords with their own real interests and goals to navigate and power struggles to contend with, and without setting the throne room on fire every week while hanging out inside and selling tickets to the show to affirm her Destined Unburnt Goddess status to everyone around her constantly....where does that leave her exactly?

Stamping her feet about what she Deserves as the Rightful Heir to the Seven Kingdoms and threatening to set people or entire kingdoms on fire if they don't prostrate themselves thoroughly or convincingly enough? As far as optics she's a foreign invader, she's a spoiled brat who has no idea what she's doing and failed upward, and comes at every problem with a compulsive and vapid/implausible/cruel initial plan that's usually countermanded in its entirety by one of her desperately necessary advisers. Then she changes her mind on the spot and does whatever her adviser says instead (even when that's not necessarily a good call either, as per the Casterly Rock junk). Is this supposed to earn her a gold star for Queenship? Lyanna Mormont demonstrated much more about leadership with much less.

It's always important to have good advisers and to listen to their advice. The problem there, too, is that her advisers all drop themselves into her lap on their own, rather than being selected by her, and that she doesn't take their input so much as she completely displaces her own positions in favor of theirs. None of this demonstrates her leadership qualities.

She's been playing on Essos Easy Mode as far as it applies to Westeros and she has no business sitting the Iron Throne. Fortunately she doesn't have the birthright, either. I assume the showrunners will do something stupid, though. ;b
 

O-N-E

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Before the hand loss, Jaime was known as pretty much the best swordsman in Westeros, so he'd likely beat John (who in the books is maybe 14 / 15 years old).

Jon has way more plot armor though (and Jaime needs to die for the child-crippling and so forth). He's what the series is named after (Song of Ice and Fire).
 
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HoodWinked

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im pretty sure in the books the lanisters are rich from the gold mines they control but in the show they are portrayed as secretly broke.

maybe its kind of the same for jamie's sword skills, in the books hes a great sword fighter but in the show there are hints that his skills are exaggerated.

book Jamie > Jon Snow > show Jamie
 

Woo-Fu

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Jaime with two hands was the best swordsman in Westeros for awhile. Jon Snow isn't that good of a swordsman to begin with, much less compared to the best.

(A Feast for the Crows)
Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered.
 

Tesseract

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jon proved himself a capable fighter over and over and over

raised by ned so i'm sure he's a beast

the fight would probably go either way
 

Lionel Richie

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He's seen some shit?

Jon has warged into a wolf, has been with the free folk beyond the wall, has seen and fought against Giants, has seen and fought a Wight, has been murdered and brought back to life.

The only relevant things Jaime has seen are the Mad King and his sister cunt.
Jon is an overpowered character, the shit he goes through has zero drama (aside from his deus ex machina resurrection) since he's clearly created to get through them. There's no urgency, no sense of danger, it never feels real. Some of it is the writing and some of it is the acting, but the point is that stuff feels heavier with Jamie. There's this whole dramatic weight to it. He killed a fucking king, Jon Snow killed a bunch of video game NPCs. At the end of season 7 you feel his desolation. Look at his face during that last dialogue with Cersei. Just look at that shit. Kit Harington couldn't act like that to save his life. Jamie is flat out the embodiment of the kind of story that GOT goes for.

Point is, Jamie Lannister is a man, Jon Snow is a boy.
 

Jon Neu

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Jon is an overpowered character
Unlike Jaime, who just happens to be the heir to the most powerful and rich family of Westeros. And the best swordman.

the shit he goes through has zero drama (aside from his deus ex machina resurrection) since he's clearly created to get through them. There's no urgency, no sense of danger, it never feels real. Some of it is the writing and some of it is the acting, but the point is that stuff feels heavier with Jamie.
Just the battle of the bastards alone is more dramatic and heroic than anything Jaime has done.

Jon is a character that literally betrays her love for the greater good and puts himself in danger all the time just to try to do the right and honorauble thing. He saved Sam when nobody liked him, he saved the Wildlings risking his own life in an historical event when he didn't have any necessity to do so. He took the command of the Night Watch when the wildlings attacked and did a phenomenal job. He went alone to the wildling settlement to try and save the watch, even when that was almost a certain death. Jaime on the other hand tries to kill a little child for Cersei and even killed his own cousin to escape from Catelyn. He lost his hand precisely because he is an entitled selfish asshole that thinks that nobody can't touch him because he is the son of Tywin Lannister. Jon is a true leader that started from the bottom and that always seeks the greater good for everybody, even if that means sacrifing himself. Stannis ofered him to cease to be a bastard and be the lord of Winterfell, and he declined because he made an oath. He is the more true son of Ned Stark.

Jon is a young boy that acts like a real man and Jaime is a man that acts like a selfish entitled brat. That's why he lost his hand, he needed to be humbled.

He killed a fucking king
He killed a king from the back and only because he was maniacal.

Jon killed the king beyond the wall in an act of mercy, to spare him the suffering. And he did it while he was a nobody, risking again his own life for just an act of mercy.

And again, Jon has faced giants, wights, white walkers. Has endured incredible tough situations north of the wall. Jaime has only faced a hard battle once, against Drogon. And he didn't get killed because ridiculously plot armor. Even Bronn fighted much better than him, just before saving his ass. The rest of his fights consist in killing some Stark dude when the Starks were greatly outnumbered by the Lannisters. That, and letting himself get captured by Robb Stark men.

Jamie is flat out the embodiment of the kind of story that GOT goes for.
Yeah, Jon is just the prince that was promised and his is the Song of Ice & Fire. You know, the title of the entire saga. He is basically the main protagonist alongside Danny and in the books, Bran. Some of the most trascendental and important moments in the entire series are his moments.

You can not like the actor and that's fine. But facts are facts.
 
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Monsterkillah

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Unlike Jaime, who just happens to be the heir to the most powerful and rich family of Westeros. And the best swordman.



Just the battle of the bastards alone is more dramatic and heroic than anything Jaime has done.

Jon is a character that literally betrays her love for the greater good and puts himself in danger all the time just to try to do the right and honorauble thing. He saved Sam when nobody liked him, he saved the Wildlings risking his own life in an historical event when he didn't have any necessity to do so. He took the command of the Night Watch when the wildlings attacked and did a phenomenal job. He went alone to the wildling settlement to try and save the watch, even when that was almost a certain death. Jaime on the other hand tries to kill a little child for Cersei and even killed his own cousin to escape from Catelyn. He lost his hand precisely because he is an entitled selfish asshole that thinks that nobody can't touch him because he is the son of Tywin Lannister. Jon is a true leader that started from the bottom and that always seeks the greater good for everybody, even if that means sacrifing himself. Stannis ofered him to cease to be a bastard and be the lord of Winterfell, and he declined because he made an oath. He is the more true son of Ned Stark.

Jon is a young boy that acts like a real man and Jaime is a man that acts like a selfish entitled brat. That's why he lost his hand, he needed to be humbled.



He killed a king from the back and only because he was maniacal.

Jon killed the king beyond the wall in an act of mercy, to spare him the suffering. And he did it while he was a nobody, risking again his own life for just an act of mercy.

And again, Jon has faced giants, wights, white walkers. Has endured incredible tough situations north of the wall. Jaime has only faced a hard battle once, against Drogon. And he didn't get killed because ridiculously plot armor. Even Bronn fighted much better than him, just before saving his ass. The rest of his fights consist in killing some Stark dude when the Starks were greatly outnumbered by the Lannisters. That, and letting himself get captured by Robb Stark men.



Yeah, Jon is just the prince that was promised and his is the Song of Ice & Fire. You know, the title of the entire saga. He is basically the main protagonist alongside Danny and in the books, Bran. Some of the most trascendental and important moments in the entire series are his moments.

You can not like the actor and that's fine. But facts are facts.
 

Lionel Richie

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Unlike Jaime, who just happens to be the heir to the most powerful and rich family of Westeros. And the best swordman..
And he resents that position and loses the mean to do the one thing he probably enjoys besides boinking Cersei.

Just the battle of the bastards alone is more dramatic and heroic than anything Jaime has done.

Jon is a character that literally betrays her love for the greater good and puts himself in danger all the time just to try to do the right and honorauble thing. He saved Sam when nobody liked him, he saved the Wildlings risking his own life in an historical event when he didn't have any necessity to do so. He took the command of the Night Watch when the wildlings attacked and did a phenomenal job. He went alone to the wildling settlement to try and save the watch, even when that was almost a certain death. Jaime on the other hand tries to kill a little child for Cersei and even killed his own cousin to escape from Catelyn. He lost his hand precisely because he is an entitled selfish asshole that thinks that nobody can't touch him because he is the son of Tywin Lannister. Jon is a true leader that started from the bottom and that always seeks the greater good for everybody, even if that means sacrifing himself. Stannis ofered him to cease to be a bastard and be the lord of Winterfell, and he declined because he made an oath. He is the more true son of Ned Stark.

Jon is a young boy that acts like a real man and Jaime is a man that acts like a selfish entitled brat. That's why he lost his hand, he needed to be humbled.
The same battle that Jon would get SHRECKED at if not for Littlefinger? And everything you mentioned doesn't make Jon Snow a "better" character, it makes him an unrealistic character. Jamie is flawed, but he's written as an actual human being. It's clear that these people don't live in good times, shit's royally fucked around them so they're bound to make mistakes and act accordingly. Jamie acts like an asshole and he gets punished badly, he's still getting punished as the show is going on. Jon acts like a saint because that's in his blood or whatever. Characters who are clearly designed to be that good and kind tend to be boring.

He killed a king from the back and only because he was maniacal.

Jon killed the king beyond the wall in an act of mercy, to spare him the suffering. And he did it while he was a nobody, risking again his own life for just an act of mercy.

And again, Jon has faced giants, wights, white walkers. Has endured incredible tough situations north of the wall. Jaime has only faced a hard battle once, against Drogon. And he didn't get killed because ridiculously plot armor. Even Bronn fighted much better than him, just before saving his ass. The rest of his fights consist in killing some Stark dude when the Starks were greatly outnumbered by the Lannisters. That, and letting himself get captured by Robb Stark men.
Killing the actual king and not some snow neanderthal is way more relevant of a plot device. Everything that happens in GOT is happening as a consequence of what Jamie did and he's scorned at for it. Jamie is a hated character for his reasonable actions while Jon is a Jesus Christ like figure who unreasonably battled made up bullshit and married a communist.

Funny that you mention Bronn as he would BTFO Jon in a duel as well.

Yeah, Jon is just the prince that was promised and his is the Song of Ice & Fire. You know, the title of the entire saga. He is basically the main protagonist alongside Danny and in the books, Bran. Some of the most trascendental and important moments in the entire series are his moments.

You can not like the actor and that's fine. But facts are facts.
That's what makes him a Marty Stu. The hardships he goes through are empty because he's never at risk. He's the CHOSEN ONE. I actually don't dislike Kit, I think he's serviceable. But Jamie is a better character and Nikolaj is a better actor. Facts are facts.

Oh and in the series we don't see peak Jamie. We just hear about how fucking awesome he is. So that's probably like comparing athletes from different eras and shit.
 
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Jon Neu

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And he resents that position
Yet all his life has been milking it to the point of becoming an entitled asshole who thinks nobody can touch him.

And everything you mentioned doesn't make Jon Snow a "better" character, it makes him an unrealistic character.
So being good, honorauble and actually a good leader makes you unrealistic and boring.

You can like whatever type of characters you want. I was just addressing your coments about Jaime having more drama. The funny thing is that the most singular trait of Jaime is his romance with Cersei, which most of the time just looks incredibly stupid and it's just there just for shock value. Like when he raped her next to the cadaver of their son. So dramatic.

Cersei and Robert had real tension, real chemistry and they were even funny as hell together. I guess by your own logic, Robert Baratheon is a better character and the actor is far better than Nikolaj Coster-Waldau.

Jaime is a hated character for his reasonable actions
The only reasonable action he made was killing the Mad King. He tried to go to war against Robb and got captured, a move that could actually costed his House the war. His cousin died for his arrogance and selfishness. He is an incredible bad leader.

And he tried to kill the prince of Winterfell, basically starting the war, because he couldn't control his pants.

Funny that you mention Bronn as he would BTFO Jon in a duel as well.
Maybe, but only if with that would save Jaime's ass again.

And again, if we talk a full on fight, without rules, neither Jaime and much more less Bronn stand a chance against Jon and his skinchanger powers.

And again, the present Jaime is just trash as a fighter. He is literally nobody. We have to go back in time and act like nothing happened to give him a chance.

That's what makes him a Marty Stu. The hardships he goes through are empty because he's never at risk. He's the CHOSEN ONE.
You can say the same about Jaime. Everbody knew he was going to be till the end, so I guess his hardships are empty.

Oh and in the series we don't see peak Jamie. We just hear about how fucking awesome he is. So that's probably like comparing athletes from different eras and shit.
We don't see it in the books neither. The point of his character is to be given the credentials of being the best swordman, being an arrogant asshole who thinks he can get away with everything just by mentioning the name of his mighty father.

And then becoming basically trash who could not even defend himself against Podrick.
 
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Lionel Richie

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Yet all his life has been milking it to the point of becoming an entitled asshole who thinks nobody can touch him.
Maybe, but that came at a cost for him and he's paying the cost. That's what makes his character interesting, the growth or at least the punishment for his past transgressions.

Let me ask you, what is a more interesting arc to follow: someone that starts out as a shitty human being with some redeeming features and begin to turn his life around around the hardships he pretty much imposed upon himself, or someone that starts out as the lost son of a promised family that can command dragons and is probably a furry on a quest to get cucked by snow women?


So being good, honorauble and actually a good leader makes you unrealistic and boring.

You can like whatever type of characters you want. I was just addressing your coments about Jaime having more drama. The funny thing is that the most singular trait of Jaime is his romance with Cersei, which most of the time just looks incredibly stupid and it's just there just for shock value. Like when he raped her next to the cadaver of their son. So dramatic.

Cersei and Robert had real tension, real chemistry and they were even funny as hell together. I guess by your own logic, Robert Baratheon is a better character and the actor is far better than Nikolaj Coster-Waldau.
Thing is, Jon Snow is the hero of the story, Jamie is at best a sympathetic villain. Jamie experiences growth and that makes him more relatable, more human. Jon was born special. Being good and honorable is awesome when it's done right, like Luke in Star Wars. But there needs to be some growth for it to be interesting. Jon is now pretty much the same character he was when the series started. That's fucked up.

I think his relationship with Cersei is far better than the fanservice of aunty sex that Jon eventually had with Danny, especially after a season long of Twitter pleasing flirting between them ("holy shit you're so short LOL"). And Robert was a nice character as well, but I didn't see any real chemistry between them. It was clear they hated each other and not even in a kinky hate sex kind of way.

The only reasonable action he made was killing the Mad King. He tried to go to war against Robb and got captured, a move that could actually costed his House the war. His cousin died for his arrogance and selfishness. He is an incredible bad leader.

And he tried to kill the prince of Winterfell, basically starting the war, because he couldn't control his pants.
He then payed the price for all of those. You can't convince me he's had an easy series, dude is one lost dick away from having it as hard as the prince of sea people.

Maybe, but only if with that would save Jaime's ass again.

And again, if we talk a full on fight, without rules, neither Jaime and much more less Bronn stand a chance against Jon and his skinchanger powers.

And again, the present Jaime is just trash as a fighter. He is literally nobody. We have to go back in time and act like nothing happened to give him a chance.
I think that's the idea of this thread. Peak Jamie vs. Peak Jon Snow sans Dragon Ball Z shenanigans. Jamie wins on sheer manliness.

You can say the same about Jaime. Everbody knew he was going to be till the end, so I guess his hardships are empty.
No, because he suffered. And changed. Jon is still the same OP character he was to begin with.

We don't see it in the books neither. The point of his character is to be given the credentials of being the best swordman, being an arrogant asshole who thinks he can get away with everything just by mentioning the name of his mighty father.

And then becoming basically trash who could not even defend himself against Podrick.
Isn't that more interesting than being a messianic zombie truther, possible furry, Call of Duty guest character? And not to mention, Jamie is considered a legendary swordsman. That's the definition of his character. Why would you pick the other guy to win a sword duel?
 

EviLore

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Killing the actual king and not some snow neanderthal
:messenger_tears_of_joy:

Let me ask you, what is a more interesting arc to follow: someone that starts out as a shitty human being with some redeeming features and begin to turn his life around around the hardships he pretty much imposed upon himself, or someone that starts out as the lost son of a promised family that can command dragons and is probably a furry on a quest to get cucked by snow women?
Jaime's faithful to Cersei bro. He's the biggest cuck in the series.
 

Lionel Richie

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Jaime's faithful to Cersei bro. He's the biggest cuck in the series.
Yeah but that's another thing he could teach Jon, how to master that regrettable art. And besides, I think Jamie is the victim here and he couldn't possibly know how much of a bitch his sister is. Jon is probably going to incentivize Danny to spend some quality time with the eventually thirsty dothraki for the sake of leadership.
 

KonradLaw

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Depends. On turnament-style 1v1 combat? Jaimie. If they fought during big battle though? Jon, as he has far more experience at this.
 
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Woo-Fu

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A lot of people disrespecting Brienne's opinion on this matter. If this were Era all of you'd be getting banned for misogyny right about now.
 

SpartanN92

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There is a HUGE difference between Jon Snow's hack and slash and Jaimie Lannister's trained swordsmanship. That isn't to say that Jon Snow is untalented, he just isn't as technically good or as well trained as Jaimie.
Also all of Jon's foes have been mindless Zombies/Random wildlings/Random soldiers. He hasn't had many legit 1v1 duels whereas Jaimie has decades of experience in that matter.

A more interesting matchup would be Syrio Forell vs Jaimie Lannister
 

Hobobaggins

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Let's also not forget that Jaimie has something like 20 years on Jon Snow, in the books John is barely a teenager.

I should hope Jaimie is more skilled. So in a tourney setting Jaimie Lannister for sure. In the heat of a real battle with real stakes on their shoulders I would take Snow.

In the books he is no slouch and often practiced at Castle Black against 2 and 3 opponents at once, each real fight is a lesson learned for John.
 

Jon Neu

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Maybe, but that came at a cost for him and he's paying the cost. That's what makes his character interesting, the growth or at least the punishment for his past transgressions.
Well, if you can ignore someone going from psycopathic children killer to good man, sure.

Let me ask you, what is a more interesting arc to follow: someone that starts out as a shitty human being with some redeeming features and begin to turn his life around around the hardships he pretty much imposed upon himself, or someone that starts out as the lost son of a promised family that can command dragons and is probably a furry on a quest to get cucked by snow women?
The problem is that Jaime had always had an easy life. He endured some hardships but he is still one of the most privileged men in Westeros just by the context in which he was born. He hasn't earned his position and his greater preocupation is losing the love of his bitchy twin sister psycopath. Jon already lost the love of his life, he has endured much more.

Jon is an outcast that starts from the bottom and raises to the top without losing his integrity and his honour, most of the time probably because of those traits is why he roses. He is a far better man than Jaime, he is a far better leader and overall he is a far better fighter, especially now that Jaime is just what Jon has always been all his life; cripples, bastards & broken things.

Thing is, Jon Snow is the hero of the story, Jamie is at best a sympathetic villain. Jamie experiences growth and that makes him more relatable, more human. Jon was born special. Being good and honorable is awesome when it's done right, like Luke in Star Wars. But there needs to be some growth for it to be interesting. Jon is now pretty much the same character he was when the series started. That's fucked up.
But that's because the Jaime's arc is pretty much almost finished, the only thing pending in his arc is Brienne, while Jon is still in the middle of his (in the books).

I would wait to read the last books, because it wouldn't surprise me if there was more than a few twists regarding Jon, Ned, Lyanna, etc...

And Jon wasn't born special, you didn't know since the begining that he was special, that's something that is discovered by the end of the TV series and that is not even confirmed in the books. But regardless, I don't see how the tale of a bastard that rises to the top despite being a bastard, and then finding out he was the king all along is a worse history than a rich swordsmen that loses his ability to fight because he is to cocky.

I think his relationship with Cersei is far better than the fanservice of aunty sex that Jon eventually had with Danny, especially after a season long of Twitter pleasing flirting between them ("holy shit you're so short LOL"). And Robert was a nice character as well, but I didn't see any real chemistry between them. It was clear they hated each other and not even in a kinky hate sex kind of way.
On that I agree, the relationship between Jon and Dany is complete aids. But that's the TV show coming with their Hollywood type of "shocking" ideas. I'm sure GRR Martin is going to handle Jon's destiny far better.

And yes, Robert and Cersei hated each other so profoundly. And that was showed beautifully between the actors, they had a faboulous chemistry, you believed their relationship as if it was real, you believed everything they said as they truly mean it. That doesn't happen with Jaime and Cersei.

He then payed the price for all of those. You can't convince me he's had an easy series, dude is one lost dick away from having it as hard as the prince of sea people.
What?

He is probably the relevant character who has have it more easy. He lost his children with Cersei, but was obvious he didn't care when he raped her in front of his dead son promising her to make more children. The only thing he cared was her.

Most of his life has been a happy life. He can't even begin to compare himself with the hell Theon has gone through.

think that's the idea of this thread. Peak Jamie vs. Peak Jon Snow sans Dragon Ball Z shenanigans. Jamie wins on sheer manliness.
Dragon Ball shenanigans you mean the skinchangers powers? Sorry, but this is A Song Of Ice & Fire, a tale about a super powerful greenser/skinchanger named Bran. If you take that out, then it's not Game Of Thrones.

And Jon in the books has showed to have an incredible amount of phyiscal power. Despite being a boy, he would whoop Jaime's ass by just his sheer force.

I have the theory that skinchagers receive some of the personality/traits of the beasts they skinchange, especially when they are more talented. That's why when Jon gets angry exhibits a super strenght capacity, he has the power and the fierceness of Ghost. Compared to that, the manliness of Jaime is just tiny.

No, because he suffered. And changed. Jon is still the same OP character he was to begin with.
Jaime had a pretty good life and suffered a bit. Jon is the opposite, he has always suffered and had some good moments in between.

Isn't that more interesting than being a messianic zombie truther, possible furry, Call of Duty guest character? And not to mention, Jamie is considered a legendary swordsman. That's the definition of his character. Why would you pick the other guy to win a sword duel?
Jaime is a narcissist obsessed with appear in a book of remarkable feats. And now he will never be legendary because he lost a hand and therefore he is of not value anymore and he never did something remarkable before losing it. Jon already has made history multiple times despite being much younger.

And I would pick Jon because in the world of Ice & Fire there are no rules, so in a combat prime Jaime would always lose against Jon and his capabilities. And that's bearing in mind we haven't even seen Jon in his prime yet.

In the actual timeline, probably only Bran could defeat Jon on one on one. Or the Night King in the show.
 

Miku Miku

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I think Jamie has one last person to slay before his arc is finished. Just my prediction of course.
 

Lionel Richie

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Well, if you can ignore someone going from psycopathic children killer to good man, sure.
It's more realistic than being frosty Jesus Christ. Jamie at least did it for love, Jon only does shit because that's what his character is designed to.

The problem is that Jaime had always had an easy life. He endured some hardships but he is still one of the most privileged men in Westeros just by the context in which he was born. He hasn't earned his position and his greater preocupation is losing the love of his bitchy twin sister psycopath. Jon already lost the love of his life, he has endured much more.

Jon is an outcast that starts from the bottom and raises to the top without losing his integrity and his honour, most of the time probably because of those traits is why he roses. He is a far better man than Jaime, he is a far better leader and overall he is a far better fighter, especially now that Jaime is just what Jon has always been all his life; cripples, bastards & broken things.
Jon didn't lose the love of his life, his wolf is still alive.

And Jamie is specifically written to be a better swordsman than Jon, but don't let that get in the way of your slightly erotic headcanon.

But that's because the Jaime's arc is pretty much almost finished, the only thing pending in his arc is Brienne, while Jon is still in the middle of his (in the books).

I would wait to read the last books, because it wouldn't surprise me if there was more than a few twists regarding Jon, Ned, Lyanna, etc...

And Jon wasn't born special, you didn't know since the begining that he was special, that's something that is discovered by the end of the TV series and that is not even confirmed in the books. But regardless, I don't see how the tale of a bastard that rises to the top despite being a bastard, and then finding out he was the king all along is a worse history than a rich swordsmen that loses his ability to fight because he is to cocky.
It's not about being a worse story, it's about being relatable and therefore likable. Jon was always honorable and kind and automatically good at anything he sets out to do and a gentleman and a goody-good good doer, Jamie on the other hand was an asshole and he's well on his way to be not as much of an asshole. There's a discernible growth there, not as much for Jon.

On that I agree, the relationship between Jon and Dany is complete aids. But that's the TV show coming with their Hollywood type of "shocking" ideas. I'm sure GRR Martin is going to handle Jon's destiny far better.

And yes, Robert and Cersei hated each other so profoundly. And that was showed beautifully between the actors, they had a faboulous chemistry, you believed their relationship as if it was real, you believed everything they said as they truly mean it. That doesn't happen with Jaime and Cersei.
I very much agree with your opinion on Jon and Danny, it was stupid when it happened and thinking back on it, it makes even less sense.

What?

He is probably the relevant character who has have it more easy. He lost his children with Cersei, but was obvious he didn't care when he raped her in front of his dead son promising her to make more children. The only thing he cared was her.

Most of his life has been a happy life. He can't even begin to compare himself with the hell Theon has gone through.
Happy life? Being manipulated by the Objectively Best Character in the Saga isn't being happy and cutting the good hand of a swordsman is fucking torture and everything that happened with him is clearly a nightmare. Theon had it harder, but come on I can't think of many characters that had to endure as much punishment as Jamie. Jon is still living it up getting warm and cozy with random thots thinking about Sam, meanwhile Jamie slowly lost everything and starts the last season as a broken man.

Dragon Ball shenanigans you mean the skinchangers powers? Sorry, but this is A Song Of Ice & Fire, a tale about a super powerful greenser/skinchanger named Bran. If you take that out, then it's not Game Of Thrones.

And Jon in the books has showed to have an incredible amount of phyiscal power. Despite being a boy, he would whoop Jaime's ass by just his sheer force.

I have the theory that skinchagers receive some of the personality/traits of the beasts they skinchange, especially when they are more talented. That's why when Jon gets angry exhibits a super strenght capacity, he has the power and the fierceness of Ghost. Compared to that, the manliness of Jaime is just tiny.
I mean I don't want to take it out, but that part of the story definitely feels less dramatic than the political intrigue. It feels like the mutants in the original Far Cry, it's like yeah this is fine but there are better things to do in that story. And I don't think getting angry and therefore having an erection thinking about a wolf is more manly than being taught how to fight using his off hand by Bronn. I would definitely watch a spinoff featuring Bronn broing it up with Jamie and Tyrion and maybe solving stupid crimes like Magnum PI, now THAT would be awesome.

Jaime is a narcissist obsessed with appear in a book of remarkable feats. And now he will never be legendary because he lost a hand and therefore he is of not value anymore and he never did something remarkable before losing it. Jon already has made history multiple times despite being much younger.

And I would pick Jon because in the world of Ice & Fire there are no rules, so in a combat prime Jaime would always lose against Jon and his capabilities. And that's bearing in mind we haven't even seen Jon in his prime yet.

In the actual timeline, probably only Bran could defeat Jon on one on one. Or the Night King in the show.
Jon is a great leader and yeah he went through some shit, but he doesn't have the street cred that Jamie does as a swordsman. Give them a sword and keep out the supernatural shenanigans and there's nothing you can say to convince me Jamie wouldn't just murder him with extreme prejudice.