Game of Thrones Season 8 |OT| A Song of Icy and Fiery Fandom

stickkidsam

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Yep.
Another stupid move by Jon. If he'd just embraced his inner Targ and carried on fucking his hot Auntie then all would be fine. After he rejects her in her moment of need she says 'fear it is then', so basically Jon is entirely to blame 😋
lol Jon has been so utterly useless this season and has turned into such a bitch. It makes me sad.

He's gone from an honest and competent leader willing to make hard choices to a victim of everyone else's shitty decisions.
 

JareBear

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Kind of off-topic and random:

I've been thinking lately about my "favorite episode." I don't know if my favorite episode would necessarily align with what I also deem is the "best episode," if that even makes sense.

If I had to pick a favorite episode it would be the Season 6 Finale. "Winds of WInter," if I am not mistaken? Even though it meant saying goodbye to the hottest woman on the show, imo (Marg).

Epic musical score, great scene pacing and tension buildup. Just a great episode that had my eyes glued open, didn't want to blink.

That being said I consider seasons 1-4, as a "block unit," to be the best stretch of television I have ever seen, so I would imagine my "best episode" would have to come from there, somewhere.

Could you pick a favorite episode if you had to?
 
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stickkidsam

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Can you imagine if they hadn't killed Rheagal?

We could have seen Jon use him to stop Dany from attacking the city. That would've been neat.
 
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EviLore

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@JareBear her character motivation was getting what she believed was rightfully hers, and revenge against the people who wronged her. We see things from her perspective, so we have empathy for her, but we can say the same for Jaime and Cersei in the books. They're still awful people, but GRRM's brilliant characterization succeeds in humanizing them.

It's easy to pat yourself on the back for a good deed that benefits you, like "freeing" Unsullied to do your bidding, or "freeing" Meereen to rule it in the stead of its previous masters, but that does not demonstrate virtuous character in the least. These are acts of convenience in pursuit of power.

Every time she acts mercifully, she does so at the behest of her loving advisers who urge her in that direction by citing pragmatic reasons. They try to project their kindness and empathy onto her at every step, but they would not need to if she had it in her heart already. They tell her to act mercifully so that the people will love her more and think she is a fair and just ruler, and she wishes to please them, and wishes to be loved, and wishes to rule effectively, so she assents. Without those advisers in her ear, though, and after coming to the realization that she cannot rule Westeros with love or claim birthright, only fear, she chooses the pragmatic again: mass slaughter, fire and blood, punishment for not loving her.

Remember that she has a kingdom in Essos she doesn't give a single thought to, with a vicious sellsword left in command while she crosses the Narrow Sea to conquer. Upon realization that she will not be loved in Westeros, and that Jon is the rightful heir and the will of the people, she could just as easily turn around and leave to her kingdom in Essos and let Westerosi handle Westeros. Instead, she razes a city of one million people to the ground and sacks it with foreign hordes.

Dany acts in Dany's interest.

Jon Snow is the embodiment of heroism in this story, sacrificing his own life to save others, continuing to fight even as it sickens him in order to protect innocents and comrades and fulfill his duties, and not propping himself up afterwards or seeking any acknowledgement or reward for his deeds. He rescinds his power on multiple occasions when it serves the greater good.


Jon's hero's journey will end with slaying the dragon -- the one he loves.


 

JareBear

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So who sits on the throne at the end of the show?
I'm kind of feeling they go for a surprise contender like Sansa or even Gendry. Not sure how events would have to unfold to get to that point for either, though.

I mean, if it's not Dany, then I have to imagine that's only happening if Dany is dead. I don't think Jon would take it, so maybe he gives it to Sansa.

If I had to bet money I would have said Dany but now I dunno. I have no clue how they are gonna wrap it all up.
 

Superkewl

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Actually after watching this again, I don think anyone is going to end up on the iron throne. I think it will just be abandoned and Westeros will go back to being 7 independent kingdoms like it was before the Targaryens arrived.

  • Dany will go full lunatic to the point where even the Unsulled and Dothraki tell her to slow down, setting it up so there isn't too much resistance when she gets taken down
  • Jon will be a little bitch boy and still not want to Kill Dany, so OP Arya will wear a mask or something kill dany. go in for a hug or something an then pull a prisonyard shank job
  • Dany then will relive the vision the vision from the video above. she will die in the throne room and as she transitions in to the afterlife, we'll see her reunite with drogo and her unborn son. SHe finally gets the peace she desired
  • The throne will then be open for Jon, who finds out that he just inherited like 50 trillion dollars of debt to the Iron bank of braavos, and will have to borrow an extra 50 trillion just to rebuild the city.
  • Jon says screw that and fucks off up north beyond the wall. He leaves Winterfell and the North to Sansa.
  • He reunites with Tormund and we see a heartfelt reunion with Ghost. Maybe he marries Tormunds sister or something and they go deer hunting on weekends.
I dunno, maybe I am talking out of my ass and my theory is full of holes. Was just something I was thinking about.
 

o'dium

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Gotta admit, I was sad to see Jaime go. I know, he was technically a “bad guy”, but so was the hound... and I loved them both. At least the hound went out like a fucking boss. Jaime does technically due to that pirate cunt bag I just want to punch in the face every time he’s on... I swear to god he better not be back some how next episode...

But essentially the next episode should just be Jon versus Dany. Not sure how it will go down... he can’t just punch her, and the armies seem a bit entangled atm.

But if you’re honestly shocked this happened, well... it’s not like it hasn’t been sign posted. She’s been a nutter on and off the whole time. And once Jorah went, i knew it was game over.
 
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Rentahamster

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Dany acts in Dany's interest.
Isn't her interest winning the battle? It might make slightly more sense if she levels the city as a result of doing whatever it takes to kill Cersei and make her army submit, but in episode 5 she has already won, and completed her objective. Yet she still goes nutso. Very badly written turn, IMO.
 

EviLore

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Isn't her interest winning the battle? It might make slightly more sense if she levels the city as a result of doing whatever it takes to kill Cersei and make her army submit, but in episode 5 she has already won, and completed her objective. Yet she still goes nutso. Very badly written turn, IMO.
Her motives are conquest and revenge. Both purposes are served here. She realized that she can only rule Westeros through fear, and she knows that the people closest to her are distancing themselves or betraying her outright. Her would-be rule hangs at a precipice.

She brought out the nukes in a demonstration of power, to bring Westeros to absolute submission, quell any thoughts of jumping ship to Jon, and punish the forces responsible for opposing her and killing Rhaegal and Missandei. By razing King's Landing she gets everything she wants in one strike.
 

Rentahamster

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Her motives are conquest and revenge. Both purposes are served here. She realized that she can only rule Westeros through fear, and she knows that the people closest to her are distancing themselves or betraying her outright. Her would-be rule hangs at a precipice.

She brought out the nukes in a demonstration of power, to bring Westeros to absolute submission, quell any thoughts of jumping ship to Jon, and punish the forces responsible for opposing her and killing Rhaegal and Missandei. By razing King's Landing she gets everything she wants in one strike.
That thought process would be more of a pre-planned kinda thing. According to Inside the Episode, she just snapped.
By razing King's Landing she gets everything she wants in one strike.
Seems like she already got everything once the Lannister army was decimated and surrendered.

The writing this season hasn't convinced me that such a thought process was earned.
 
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12Goblins

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Finally watched the latest episode... The end reminded me a bit of Khabib when he eagle jumped out of the cage for more kills
 

EviLore

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That thought process would be more of a pre-planned kinda thing. According to Inside the Episode, she just snapped.
In a rage, she discarded her restraint, chose to give up her humanity and slaughter countless civilians in cathartic pursuit of her desires. That is snapping.

Seems like she already got everything once the Lannister army was decimated and surrendered.
Varys had just decided to assassinate her, Jon had just decided to distance himself from her, word is spreading that Jon is the rightful heir, and the armies of Westeros love Jon, not her. Defeating the Lannisters does not solve those problems.

Daenerys wants to "break the wheel." She doesn't elaborate on what that is, but her notion of what this means is right in front of us: conquest of Westeros, herself on the Iron Throne, and everyone else bending the knee or dying. That is absolute dictatorship and the definition of tyranny. Tyrion brought up succession at one point and she wanted nothing of it, refusing to talk about it until she finished conquering Westeros. The future of Westeros only matters to her insofar as she has it underneath her boot.

Her motives have always been clear.
 

MetalAlien

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Her motives are conquest and revenge. Both purposes are served here. She realized that she can only rule Westeros through fear, and she knows that the people closest to her are distancing themselves or betraying her outright. Her would-be rule hangs at a precipice.

She brought out the nukes in a demonstration of power, to bring Westeros to absolute submission, quell any thoughts of jumping ship to Jon, and punish the forces responsible for opposing her and killing Rhaegal and Missandei. By razing King's Landing she gets everything she wants in one strike.
So have you changed sides and now think the show is ending well?
 

PrCat88

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I like how people are thinking Jon will kill Dany. This is GoT, the Starks (with the exception of maybe Arya) are toast. Sansa and Jon best watch themselves.

Grey Worm is sooo gonna tell the Queen that Jon tried to hold his forces back.
 
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danielberg

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Bran hasn't done fucking anything so he seems like an obvious outcome.
Wouldn't he be the best choice by default anyway, dude with no big emotional outbursts or selfish desire who literally knows the entire history and maybe even has some type of future vision lol
 
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stickkidsam

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Wouldn't he be the best choice by default anyway, dude with no big emotional outbursts or selfish desire who literally knows the entire history and maybe even has some type of future vision lol
Well considering we don't know his motivations or values anymore... I don't think so. He may very well have been able to prevent many terrible events transpiring but he's just sat there being a potato. It's even possible he would allow shitty people to take advantage of his knowledge, simply viewing himself as a library of knowledge with no allegiance.

Actually perhaps we do know one thing he values: wheelchairs with good craftsmanship :p
 

Silent Duck

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Dany is not a true Targaryen. Here is the proof.

Dany is the mother of bats, not dragons. Therefore, she has no rightful claim to the throne.
 
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Dargor

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In a rage, she discarded her restraint, chose to give up her humanity and slaughter countless civilians in cathartic pursuit of her desires. That is snapping.



Varys had just decided to assassinate her, Jon had just decided to distance himself from her, word is spreading that Jon is the rightful heir, and the armies of Westeros love Jon, not her. Defeating the Lannisters does not solve those problems.

Daenerys wants to "break the wheel." She doesn't elaborate on what that is, but her notion of what this means is right in front of us: conquest of Westeros, herself on the Iron Throne, and everyone else bending the knee or dying. That is absolute dictatorship and the definition of tyranny. Tyrion brought up succession at one point and she wanted nothing of it, refusing to talk about it until she finished conquering Westeros. The future of Westeros only matters to her insofar as she has it underneath her boot.

Her motives have always been clear.
Gonna be honest, if she wants to rule Westeros now, she better never again need to eat food, nor drink water cus she'll be poisoned. If she wants to sleep, she better strap a bed on Drogon's back.

Shes a dead woman walking imho.
 
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Blood Borne

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That is one fact that doesn't even always apply, and it is not necessarily evil. If you wish to kill someone but the governing power stops you via force, are they evil or have they stopped an evil? To say that force can only be evil would leave you powerless to stop real evil. Is a parent evil for exerting their will upon their child, despite that child's wishes? Is your older brother evil for stopping you from doing something that could've put you in a lot of danger? These are just basic examples. Force can be evil. That does not mean it is. It is merely a means to an end.


Is it a tragedy? To the King who's will is a world that prevents unnecessary suffering and a safe haven for his people, is this tragic? To the government that allows its people immutable rights as individuals, allowing them to pursue more than they ever could, is that tragic? Your verdict assumes that people are merely victims of a structure of governing rather than willing participants. There are good governing powers and evil ones, but they are not one and the same.

Some humans are in fact, superior than others (don't confuse this to mean in their value as a human being). That doesn't mean they are in every way, but the ones that lead (in the best of systems) will be there because they were superior in their ability to lead and rule. Superior in their ability to conduct their people. It is not immoral to be superior, and the same goes for inferior. Humans are creatures that strive to struggle so they can become greater. Whether that's in our skills or in our social world.


dic·ta·tor
noun
a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.

be·nev·o·lent
adjective
well meaning and kindly.

So in a system in which there can be only one power, it is possible that a well meaning and kindly person would seek to obtain that power so that they may use it to better their nation.


Humans are not all interchangeable. To take characters that we have gotten to know over 7 long seasons, with all of their individual strengths and flaws, only to have them all clutch the stupid stick like it's their turn to smack the pinata is ludicrous. It is not compelling. It was not well written just because bad people exist. It was out of left field and unearned as a payoff.

I'll be the first to say that the episode was incredibly well made, with wonderful performances from the cast, brilliant effects, and directing. That does not mean that within the context of the actual story that it is good. I'd say it's terrible and incredibly forced. When almost every problem could be fixed by normally smart people not being complete idiots, it is not well written.
Is forcing someone to eat healthy
That is one fact that doesn't even always apply, and it is not necessarily evil. If you wish to kill someone but the governing power stops you via force, are they evil or have they stopped an evil? To say that force can only be evil would leave you powerless to stop real evil. Is a parent evil for exerting their will upon their child, despite that child's wishes? Is your older brother evil for stopping you from doing something that could've put you in a lot of danger? These are just basic examples. Force can be evil. That does not mean it is. It is merely a means to an end.


Is it a tragedy? To the King who's will is a world that prevents unnecessary suffering and a safe haven for his people, is this tragic? To the government that allows its people immutable rights as individuals, allowing them to pursue more than they ever could, is that tragic? Your verdict assumes that people are merely victims of a structure of governing rather than willing participants. There are good governing powers and evil ones, but they are not one and the same.

Some humans are in fact, superior than others (don't confuse this to mean in their value as a human being). That doesn't mean they are in every way, but the ones that lead (in the best of systems) will be there because they were superior in their ability to lead and rule. Superior in their ability to conduct their people. It is not immoral to be superior, and the same goes for inferior. Humans are creatures that strive to struggle so they can become greater. Whether that's in our skills or in our social world.


dic·ta·tor
noun
a ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained control by force.

be·nev·o·lent
adjective
well meaning and kindly.

So in a system in which there can be only one power, it is possible that a well meaning and kindly person would seek to obtain that power so that they may use it to better their nation.


Humans are not all interchangeable. To take characters that we have gotten to know over 7 long seasons, with all of their individual strengths and flaws, only to have them all clutch the stupid stick like it's their turn to smack the pinata is ludicrous. It is not compelling. It was not well written just because bad people exist. It was out of left field and unearned as a payoff.

I'll be the first to say that the episode was incredibly well made, with wonderful performances from the cast, brilliant effects, and directing. That does not mean that within the context of the actual story that it is good. I'd say it's terrible and incredibly forced. When almost every problem could be fixed by normally smart people not being complete idiots, it is not well written.
the adult and child comparison is a straw man. The child is literally helpless and eventually the child will reach a certain age that the parent’s force becomes evil and immoral.

Force or to be more precise, the initiation of force is inherently evil. So yes, me wanting to kill/murder/rape (all done through the initiation of force) someone is evil, therefore someone else using force to stop me is justified.

But in rather than us typing walls of text, I think it’s best we talk about the crux of the argument here. I’d like you to answer this question. Is forcing someone to do good, good or evil? An example is, is forcing someone to eat healthy and exercise good or evil? I mean, eating healthy and exercising is objectively a good thing, however I still find it evil and immoral to force someone to do it. I believe everyone has a right to be stupid, dumb and make bad decisions for themselves. No one has the right to save one from oneself. I think this is the fundamental difference between our philosophy. You believe that using force to do good is good, whereas I think using force to do good is evil, even if the deed is objectively a good deed, because force is inherently evil, it negates the good deed. Simply put, if there is no consent, then it is evil.

This is why I find the episode logical and befitting. A conqueror is no different from the conqueror he/she overthrew. They’re both conquerors.
 
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Duallusion

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When I first heard they are going with 6 episodes for the final season, I knew it's going to end up being rushed as fuck and yep; here we are. All these characters and story threads deserved at least a couple of more episodes - if not another full-fat season - in which case writers would probably have to come up with better, more satisfying ways to wrap up all the arcs.
 
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Geki-D

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Nah, he's a dead man walking, Jon is gonna fuck his shit up. I bet Sansa will be on the throne. Dany will be dead, Jon doesn't care (and I bet he'll be dead too by the end), Tyrion doesn't care and he'll be dead, Bran doesn't care and I can't even imagine the show cares enough to kill him plus it was established he's too important to die after the whole NK ordeal (can't establish his death would be a massive loss to humanity then just kill him), Arya doesn't care (I'm sure she won't die, D&D love her too much) and I don't even know who else there is but anyone else doesn't want to be king/queen and isn't important enough to get on the throne either way.

It's pretty much a 2 horse race between Sansa & Dany and Dany is the big bad so she has no chance.
 
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prag16

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Any nitpicking in regard to the writing should only be taken seriously of it's coming from GRRM or an actual writer.
Hahahaha GTFO of here.

I'm the first to call people out when they're being all pretentious in analyzing critiquing things they probably don't understand or are reading too much into. But this is too much.
 
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Barnabot

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What a shitty episode.

The writers have killed off one of the smartest man alive, Varys.

Then Cersei put her troops in front of the gate of Queens Landing's wall. Not behind the wall to protect themselves. Fuck logic. Then they do nothing against Danny's troops. They had scorpion to shoot at them but nooooo. Let's keep standing in front of them waiting to get killed.

The Euron's fleet was not smart enough to overcome Danny and her dragon anymore. Danny just doubled down what she did on the last episode (that ended so weel for her /s) and got a perfect victory against the ships. Just top notch writting.

I remember seeing Jon saying almost just one line in the entire episode: "No, she's my queen. I love her". And Danny doing all those shitty things and he's still saying "No, she's my queen. I love her". What a moron. It's not the same Jon as the past seasons.

Then we have Jamie . The writers did forget any development they did on him in the past seasons just to let him die in the most pathetic way with Cersei.

Speaking of pathetic: Arya did nothing on that episode by traveling to Queens Landing just to walk aways when the Hound decide to have a real talk to her. And the The Hound goes his way to fight the Mountain. Just to kill the Mountain. Not to kill Cersey. Cersey just walked past between those two like "Excuse me" and left.

And Danny. Ah Danny. She wore her plot armour (also her dragon) and manage to destroy all the scorpions without getting a single hit. Then when everything went through too perfectly then she snapped "Oh I want to be Mad Queen now" and killed everyone from Queens Landing, innocent or not, because of reasons. Just to put some more war crimes on her tab.

And back again with Arya, the only seemly survivor from the onslaught found white horse. What fuck does that mean?
 

mcjmetroid

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So who sits on the throne at the end of the show?
I'm going to go with Sansa. It lines up about what the actors say about the ending possibily disappointing people.
John may win but he'll be a broken man and won't be able to take the throne, plus he doesn't want it anyway.

Sansa has proven herself to be the wisest leader of the lot. She called almost everything since she got power with plenty of lessons along the way.
 

MetalAlien

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At my job I talk to 80 managers a day. Of the ones that follow the show mostly women I might add. None, not one, was happy about the way this show is ending. Yet the media is already in full defense mode blaming anyone who doesn't like the ending as a bully. Playboy is even calling for a new word as troll doesn't seem to apply anymore!
 

mcjmetroid

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What a shitty episode.

1) The writers have killed off one of the smartest man alive, Varys.

2) Then Cersei put her troops in front of the gate of Queens Landing's wall. Not behind the wall to protect themselves. Fuck logic. Then they do nothing against Danny's troops. They had scorpion to shoot at them but nooooo. Let's keep standing in front of them waiting to get killed.

The Euron's fleet was not smart enough to overcome Danny and her dragon anymore. Danny just doubled down what she did on the last episode (that ended so weel for her /s) and got a perfect victory against the ships. Just top notch writting.

3) I remember seeing Jon saying almost just one line in the entire episode: "No, she's my queen. I love her". And Danny doing all those shitty things and he's still saying "No, she's my queen. I love her". What a moron. It's not the same Jon as the past seasons.

Then we have Jamie . The writers did forget any development they did on him in the past seasons just to let him die in the most pathetic way with Cersei.

4) Speaking of pathetic: Arya did nothing on that episode by traveling to Queens Landing just to walk aways when the Hound decide to have a real talk to her. And the The Hound goes his way to fight the Mountain. Just to kill the Mountain. Not to kill Cersey. Cersey just walked past between those two like "Excuse me" and left.

And Danny. Ah Danny. She wore her plot armour (also her dragon) and manage to destroy all the scorpions without getting a single hit. Then when everything went through too perfectly then she snapped "Oh I want to be Mad Queen now" and killed everyone from Queens Landing, innocent or not, because of reasons. Just to put some more war crimes on her tab.

And back again with Arya, the only seemly survivor from the onslaught found white horse. What fuck does that mean?
Just like to point out a few things here from my stand point:

1: It's game of Thrones. You should be used to this by now. Anyone can die do you just not like the way he died?

2: They're just the Golden Company, Cersei didn't even care about her troops but I'd guess she'd still put them on a higher pecking order than the golden company so why not put them outside first? Plus the idea was to keep all the "innocent " people inside the town, she felt like Danny wouldn't attack if she know plenty of innocent people were there. She was wrong.

3: besides the fact he finds her hot she saved his life multiple times. He certainly has a bit of loyalty towards her.

4: not every single plan in the show has to succeed. They had a plan and it failed. It created a much more unpredictable show. Nobody can call what's going to happen in this show and I think it's a good idea to throw in a few potential outcomes to keep people guessing.

5: Her plot armor? Look I've heard this before and I think everyone is reading the same reviews and saying the same stuff because it's a REALLY weird thing to point out when criticising a 90 minute episode. I'd assume her clothing choice is a visual trick used for filming purposes to make her look better when she's flying. This trick goes back to Lois Lane's dress is the flying scenes in Superman. Heavy Armour wouldn't look the best in a TV show. Every little helps here they don't have a blockbuster film budget either.
 
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