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Games and Gaming debates are too positive, criticism branded as hate - That SUCKS
- Thread starter OutrageousFacts
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Roni
Gold Member
Congrats, you're now a live-example of what this thread is about.
I know, I've been calling for people to do better things with their time rather than complain for some time now.
What a sick, twisted point of view, right?
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GooseMan69
Member
The problem with the Death Stranding negativity was people who didn’t even play it watching reviews of people who are legit TERRIBLE at the game (dunkey, IGN guy), and then jumping on the hate boner bandwagon. Those reviewers did not grasp the game’s mechanics AT ALL, which was obvious to people who actually played it, so then we’re baffled as to how much these “game reviewers” struggled to understand the game’s most basic principles, which were explained in depth.
Now I don’t think you nessesarily need to play a game know it’s shit or it’s not for you. It’s obvious that games like Fallout 76, Anthem, etc are objectivally broken in many ways. But in Death Stranding’s case, it’s one of the most polished games of this generation. Almost everything works as intended.
Mechanically, it’s actually one of the deepest games this gen. Which I was shocked to discover after it was reduced to a mere “walking sim” by clickbait artists.
The only legit criticisms I’ve seen are the little inconsequential cutscenes you have to skip, and the typical Kojima story related hijinks. The second thing is actually a selling point for some folks like me, but I understand why some people don’t like it. There are some parts that are admittedly shite (junk dealer subplot).
When I see reviewers like dunkey playing the game like absolute fucking retards, no, I don’t take that seriously at all or consider it legitimate criticism.
YukiOnna
Member
You maybe saw my thread about wanting flawed heroes, but that desire actually goes deeper. I hate the presentation of pure happiness, pretending as if everything is happy, good, positive. When I see footage of the new Pokemon and how the character rides his/her bike in a colorful world where everybody smiles at each other and where trainers who lose are all 'oh well, I'm happy for you. Gotta train harder, haha' - when I see that I just want to enter the game with my Monster Hunter-character and slash that bitch in two gory pieces, his/her bike included.
Now, I'm not a fan of edgy violent games either. I hate Doom, Borderlands or Rage. BUT I want game worlds that, even when overall peacefulm/uplifting, don't HIDE the bad stuff. To keep with the Pokemon-example: When a trainer loses I'd like him to look depressed and say 'sorry, I can't talk to you right now ...'.
And that's not just games-related either, it's also an issue in discussions about games! The past weeks we saw the release of Death Stranding and Pokemon, and in both cases those who criticized the games were dismissed as haters. Even these 2 examples aside, too many times nowadays I see people being extremely averse to any sort of meaningful criticism, always deemphasizing something with phrases like 'if I had to nitpick' or 'a little bit', as if just stating criticism without this would kill some snowflake.
My personal go-to hate-object has become Animal Crossing and its fans. These are the pinnacle of 'nothing bad can happen' and 'let's all be happy friends!'. GROANS
All I want is some balance, game worlds and debate culture where we can be critical without being called haters and someone starting to cry.
Am I the only one? Pls tell me others noticed this, too.
I honestly have trouble understanding what your first paragraph has to do with the 2nd half of your post... and besides that, I'm not sure what examples you're talking about regarding the game, but plenty of people who just outright shit on games tend to mistakenly claim it is criticism when it isn't. It goes both ways in a discussion and if you're not going to add anything then it's not criticism. It is both merits and faults after all. I saw plenty of examples of people just going for confirmation bias to hate on Kojima or shut down the game at any point when they didn't even try it or say anything of substance, that's kind of just dumb.
Criticism is fine, but there absolutely should not be an issue with any sort of positivity or healthy dose of skepticism/negativity. I don't think you have to always explain why when you're not involved in a discussion so it shouldn't be a problem. But if you're just going to go "SEE I WAS RIGHT! HA" which you do see a lot of then... yeah you kinda are asking to be told off.
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GooseMan69
Member
What happened in the wake of Death Stranding was people who didn’t play it perpetuating things that are objectively false.
OutrageousFacts
Banned
I severely disagree.
First, you absolutely can criticize a game without having played it, as you yourself admit. The people demand that was part of the obnoxious fanboys of DS and Swordshield. The former demanded that every reviewer finish the entire game before being allowed to criticize. The latter basically claimed 'give Gamefreaks 60 bucks, THEN you get to criticize the game', because there's no way to play swordshield without spending that money. It was an absolutely obnoxious, toxic situation, but not because of the critics.
Second, you're dismissing IGN and dunkey. I've seen both those reviews and unless they hacked the game, the game *is* as bad as they say. Now YOU can say 'but it doesn't matter to ME, I'm having fun nonetheless'. And that's ok. What's not ok is dismissing these reviews. I'm sorry, but the part in dunkey's review where the vehicle gets stuck on the smallest rubble, come on. Or when he falls in ign's review and the whole luggage flies all the way down a mountain side, fuck that shit. You can't possibly seriously argue with 'git gud'. Which would be wrong anyway, because have you seen dunkey play Mario Odyssey? He's a freaking pro-gamer imo.
The point of all: stop dismissing criticism. Saying criticism isn't valid means you're insinuating the critic made things up only to stir up shit. That is unbelievably rude.
OutrageousFacts
Banned
Yeah, IGN faked an entire video. /s
(and now DS fanboys are continuing in this thread, sigh. Irony overload. I mentioned DS as an example. The point was to show how valid criticism is dismissed. Instead of acknowledging that, fanboys choose to defend DS. It's so fucking frustrating. Fuck Death Stranding - see, that's not good criticism. But it feels good to say it)
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GooseMan69
Member
I’ll dismiss whatever criticism I want, especially when said critic plays the game like a fucking moron, as dunkey and IGN guy did. Anyone who’s actually played the game would understand this. I had none of the issues they had, because I actually understood the game’s mechanics. They clearly did not.
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Paltheos
Member
No, but on an unrelated subject, the thing I'm most tired of in video game discussions is lack of substantial discussion. That is, someone will say, "Game does or does not do x, y, and z" and proceeds to provide no examples.
I don't mind this so much in forum discussion where people are just shooting the shit sometimes, but I've recently reflected on how amazing it is content producers create and release videos on youtube talking about their favorite games, and how they make them feel, and what the game aims for or neglects... and don't provide examples. They'll put together these elaborate shows with spliced together footage and jokes and video aftereffects but not dig into the meat of the games.
I don't think the aim is really to make critical videos for allot of these guys. I don't think you could put that much work into a project and not realize that. I think they just want to make videos on games they like. Not necessarily a knock on their feelings, but I don't agree with selling them as critical analyses. I've seen the guys who've gone all the way - It's allot of work.
I don't mind this so much in forum discussion where people are just shooting the shit sometimes, but I've recently reflected on how amazing it is content producers create and release videos on youtube talking about their favorite games, and how they make them feel, and what the game aims for or neglects... and don't provide examples. They'll put together these elaborate shows with spliced together footage and jokes and video aftereffects but not dig into the meat of the games.
I don't think the aim is really to make critical videos for allot of these guys. I don't think you could put that much work into a project and not realize that. I think they just want to make videos on games they like. Not necessarily a knock on their feelings, but I don't agree with selling them as critical analyses. I've seen the guys who've gone all the way - It's allot of work.
GooseMan69
Member
Yeah, IGN faked an entire video. /s
(and now DS fanboys are continuing in this thread, sigh. Irony overload. I mentioned DS as an example. The point was to show how valid criticism is dismissed. Instead of acknowledging that, fanboys choose to defend DS. It's so fucking frustrating. Fuck Death Stranding - see, that's not good criticism. But it feels good to say it)
They didn’t fake anything. The guy is just bad at his job.
Also funny to see that hate boner still going strong for death stranding a month after the fact.
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One of the points Dunkey was making is that the game was boring as hell. (zip-lines being the best thing in it because it enables him to skip the "game").
If he was playing "properly" and wasn't driving like a moron on 45degree inclines and playing "as intended" it wouldn't have made the game any better.
He wasn't making an argument that the game sucks, because he can't drive on 45degree inclines.
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Yeah, IGN faked an entire video. /s
(and now DS fanboys are continuing in this thread, sigh. Irony overload. I mentioned DS as an example. The point was to show how valid criticism is dismissed. Instead of acknowledging that, fanboys choose to defend DS. It's so fucking frustrating. Fuck Death Stranding - see, that's not good criticism. But it feels good to say it)
I love how you've made a thread moaning about people dismissing supposedly valid criticism but as soon as there's even a hint of someone supporting a game or developer you have no problem outright dismissing those people as fanboys.
You've managed to mention fanboys 3 times in the previous couple of posts but you're actually against dismissing people's opinions? OK. Sounds like you are only against people dismissing YOUR opinions. It's OK when you do it.
I didn't like the game and my criticisms are all valid. You liked the game but you're just a fan boy.
Seems like there's a pattern here. Make a thread with a strong and bold opening statement. Get some opposing views that don't agree with you and then take a strop and start name calling and/or smearing your opponents.
Anita? Is that you?
Roni
Gold Member
This right here tells you everything you need to know about the OP. He didn't play the game. He watched famous people suck at the game, so that must mean the game's bad...
OP has zero first-hand experience with the game, but still wants his criticism to be heard...
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No no.
You see the OP is just making criticisms and we mustn't dismiss those. Not ever.
You are just a fanboy though and you can be easily dismissed.
OP only wants to hear opinions that they already agree with.
OutrageousFacts
Banned
I love how you've made a thread moaning about people dismissing supposedly valid criticism but as soon as there's even a hint of someone supporting a game or developer you have no problem outright dismissing those people as fanboys.
You've managed to mention fanboys 3 times in the previous couple of posts but you're actually against dismissing people's opinions? OK. Sounds like you are only against people dismissing YOUR opinions. It's OK when you do it.
I didn't like the game and my criticisms are all valid. You liked the game but you're just a fan boy.
Seems like there's a pattern here. Make a thread with a strong and bold opening statement. Get some opposing views that don't agree with you and then take a strop and start name calling and/or smearing your opponents.
Anita? Is that you?
The only pattern I see is you following me in various threads to shit on my opinion. Fuck you :]
Ah. So criticism is dismissed as "following people around and shitting on their opinion" when it happens to you? I see.
And didn't you just get done saying another poster was being "rude"? Interesting.
What's the point in starting a discussion thread, taking a very combative stance and then spitting your dummy out when it doesn't go all your own way?
You want to be able to call people fanboys but you don't want to get backlash? Fuck that. If you want to dish it out then you need to be prepared to take a little heat in return.
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Zog
Banned
I think game consumers are far too lenient on an industry that nickel and dimes them.
BigBooper
Member
I like your first point about negativity within games and I'd like to see more varied things like that.
I don't see your second point at all. Heck, every other videogame documentary is about "The Rise and Fall of bla blah blah." Negativity is practically it's own genre within game discussions.
I don't see your second point at all. Heck, every other videogame documentary is about "The Rise and Fall of bla blah blah." Negativity is practically it's own genre within game discussions.
Starlight Lotice
Member
Not sure why it is a bad thing to be honest. Games being super happy doesn't take away from games being dark and gritty.
We are living in a world that feeds of bad shit going on somewhere every damn day. Why would I want to play a game that replicates that?
Games are an escape from the horrible stuff that happens, and not every game has to have a villian or a dystopian future.
Let games be what they want. Happy/Positive games do tend to make people happier and more positive in life too. It can go both ways.
We are living in a world that feeds of bad shit going on somewhere every damn day. Why would I want to play a game that replicates that?
Games are an escape from the horrible stuff that happens, and not every game has to have a villian or a dystopian future.
Let games be what they want. Happy/Positive games do tend to make people happier and more positive in life too. It can go both ways.
KlickKlack
Banned
"the criticisms of the positivity is hate..."
TheSHEEEP
Gold Member
Fully agree with the sentiment here.
There is a lot to criticize about most games, and objectively, too. Not just "I don't like this" kind of stuff (which isn't criticism, that's just an opinion).
But do it, support it with arguments, too, and people will just brush it off as "hating" and ignore every single argument given, never even bothering trying to refute it.
It is very much a "lalalala I can't heeeeaaaar you!" kind of behaviour. The "discussion"-equivalent to blocking people who disagree on Twitter.
As if pointing out that something they like has flaws is horrible in and off itself - I don't even see where this need to defend something against any form of criticism comes from.
Of course, it goes similarly when highlighting positive aspects of something others don't like.
Guess too many people can't stand being rational to begin with.
It is even worse when you work in an industry yourself.
It's like there is some big taboo saying anything negative about something your peers were involved in, as if it would be shitting in your own nest or something.
Instead of considering (constructive and objective) criticism, it is being nipped in the bud. Which then leads to criticism not being heard (as it was never voiced) and results in peers just repeating mistakes, oblivious to how bad something is.
When the rare occasion happens and a reporter (or someone else) asks a negatively-laden question to a professional, you can basically see the cogwheels turning, trying to invent a positive answer instead of outright saying what is what.
There is a lot to criticize about most games, and objectively, too. Not just "I don't like this" kind of stuff (which isn't criticism, that's just an opinion).
But do it, support it with arguments, too, and people will just brush it off as "hating" and ignore every single argument given, never even bothering trying to refute it.
It is very much a "lalalala I can't heeeeaaaar you!" kind of behaviour. The "discussion"-equivalent to blocking people who disagree on Twitter.
As if pointing out that something they like has flaws is horrible in and off itself - I don't even see where this need to defend something against any form of criticism comes from.
Of course, it goes similarly when highlighting positive aspects of something others don't like.
Guess too many people can't stand being rational to begin with.
It is even worse when you work in an industry yourself.
It's like there is some big taboo saying anything negative about something your peers were involved in, as if it would be shitting in your own nest or something.
Instead of considering (constructive and objective) criticism, it is being nipped in the bud. Which then leads to criticism not being heard (as it was never voiced) and results in peers just repeating mistakes, oblivious to how bad something is.
When the rare occasion happens and a reporter (or someone else) asks a negatively-laden question to a professional, you can basically see the cogwheels turning, trying to invent a positive answer instead of outright saying what is what.
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Hawks Eclipse
Member
Just to be clear, I'm in agreement with the general idea of your previous reply as well as this one.
I think you're taking observations from other circles of life and applying them broadly, so please indulge me a little as I do the same.
From my POV, humans are creatures of convenience, have a desire for drama and an appetite for attention...
Convenience would be finding the path of least resistance.
Drama is the weird opposite where we want to see friction (or really, tension and release) as it keeps things interesting.
Attention is validation of our existence.
So...hot takes are convenient ways of stirring up drama that bring attention to the person giving that take.
I think it's particularly evident on social media: write something positive and meaningful, you get some replies. Most people just leave an upvote (convenient!) and move on. Few would have any good comments to add.
Write some outrageous low effort negative clickbait and you get lots of downvotes but more importantly plenty of heated comments (drama).
I think a big part of why people respond to negative things like that is because it is easy to feel better about yourself when you can come in and shoot down something effortlessly.
Eg. "DMCV doesn't have PS2 graphics, you must be blind or something."
To tie back to your reply and gaming critique in particular, being able to articulate why a thing is good/bad is rather difficult and consumes resources (time & effort)and oftentimes the responses you get back doesn't feel worth it.
Some people get this innately and hence they keep trolling. Look at discussions on gaf. You get more interaction by exaggerating things, especially if it's negative.
Anyway, apologies for taking a while and I might reply again later on to the same post with more thoughts; this reply is already getting too long for my own comfort, heh.
ROMhack
Member
I find it hard to hate games. If I dislike one then I tend to look the other way as I feel it's super important not to get down about them. It's also why I disbelieve the idea that there are so many MUST PLAY games — gaming is so varied that it's more likely there's only a certain type that will interest each individual.
That said, I hated Dishonored 2. It bored me wretched. Fuck that game and Arkane. Prey wasn't much better.
That said, I hated Dishonored 2. It bored me wretched. Fuck that game and Arkane. Prey wasn't much better.
Roni
Gold Member
I agree 100% with you and I could only wish more people could see that as clearly as you put it. For if more people were aware of this, we could perhaps remedy it more easily...
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Hawks Eclipse
Member
I'm curious, why the hate for Dis2, Prey and Arkane?
Would love to play them for myself but I dislike their input latency on PS4.
Hawks Eclipse
Member
That's a fight against human nature itself.
I'm guilty of falling into that kind of thinking often as well. The good thing is that I'm pretty anal when it comes to posting (you could say I take it a bit too seriously) , so whatever is thought up in the heat of the moment usually gets overwritten later as I've had time to think it through while writing.
And that's partly why I joined gaf; to have good discussions about games whenever possible, cheers!
Roni
Gold Member
It is, though I can't help but feel this has been exacerbated by globalization, the internet and social media. Now, I'm not against any of these things, but it's no secret we're not dealing so well with how 'small' the world has become.
Who isn't, right? I'm sure you could find posts of mine where I'm being pretty negative... But the important thing is that going forward, we need to minimize this shit in our own lives and encourage people to do the same around us.
Me too, but sadly, that's pretty rare. We would need a new section or something with much stricter rules if that was to be the case.
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Yeah, I reckon that a lot of times when a game is widely touted as "must play" all that hype actually ends up working against the game.
I find myself sitting down to play and quickly feeling like "it's not THAT good".
I think as you play more games and even talk more about games it becomes more and more difficult for a game to blow your mind.
Of course, I don't flip out if a game turns out to be "meh". Usually I will just put it aside and maybe some day I will go back and things will click and I will have a great time.
Every highly rated game seems to always come with an accompanying "Game X is overrated" following.
I tend to feel I have more success with games when I don't know what to expect or if I am just going in with some skepticism.
Suddenly that all turns into "holy shit this is really good".
Hawks Eclipse
Member
The way I see it, Steve Jobs opened Pandora's Box with the iPhone; it's one of those things where after it's unleashed, you can't put it back in the box so to speak. I can't foresee a future in which we all stop using smart devices, for better or worse. (Disclaimer: I don't dislike Steve Jobs or Apple.)
Of course, social media plays into it, but I don't think the world was this 'small' back in the days of MySpace and Friendster.
Yea I mentioned myself being guilty as both an example of how hard it is to fight human nature and also as an admission.
I think the Gaming Discussion side works just fine for me, I pick and choose what I want to reply to and ignore things that I feel won't lead anywhere (based on past experience). Arguments are fine and welcome, quarrels are a waste of time.
Belmonte
Member
English is not my first language so I need to revise every post I do, so I prefer to talk about why I like the games I like than criticize games I don't. Too much effort to spent with games I will not even buy.
Another thing: I legit think we are in a great moment in gaming, even made a thread about it. If we were in the first half of PS360 generation, were everyone and their dog wanted to make a COD or Gears of War clone, Japan seemed to forgot how to make games, and the only indie games worthwhile were Braid and one or two titles, than I would be negative as heck.
Even traditional CRPGs, point and click adventures and retro FPSs have good titles these days.
Another thing: I legit think we are in a great moment in gaming, even made a thread about it. If we were in the first half of PS360 generation, were everyone and their dog wanted to make a COD or Gears of War clone, Japan seemed to forgot how to make games, and the only indie games worthwhile were Braid and one or two titles, than I would be negative as heck.
Even traditional CRPGs, point and click adventures and retro FPSs have good titles these days.
Hawks Eclipse
Member
I'm actually quite the grammar Nazi but I also understand that not everyone picked up English the same way, so as long as the message is clear I refrain from pointing out the errors.
I think criticism and praise are both important BUT need to be backed up well. Of course, it's easier said then done so sometimes I'd rather just lurk haha.
I don't really remember much about the first half of that era because I was mostly playing games on NDS, didn't own PS360 till much later. I'd say Japan at least still remembered how to make games for the NDS!
So many wonderful gems to play and experience, low resolution be damned.
And speaking of wonderful gems, it's true that we have a lot of good choices now, especially in the indie area like you said. I think it plays a big part in Switch's success too.
I like to think that each era had its own gaming gems, they just existed on different platforms and you had to know where to look or who to listen to.
P.S. I can't wait for some of those modern retro FPSes to hit the Switch! IIRC Dusk and Ion Fury are already confirmed to be coming...