• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

Status
Not open for further replies.
The answer is that Lauren Wainwright threatened us with legal action and made it clear she would not back down, at which point we took legal advice and ultimately made the decision to remove the paragraphs. It was not a decision that I took lightly. One objection to this action that I've read online is that there was no libel. All I can really say is that the advice we received meant that removing the offending text and apologising to Lauren was the right course of action to take. We also considered the fact that the article wasn't really about her but about all of us, and I felt that the edited version did not change Rab's meaning.
And this pretty much confirms that threats were made. Eurogamer is my favourite site and one of the things that this all case did was cement even more my trust in them.
http://i.imgur.com/2Jd7r.jpg

Oops. Somone gon get fired.
Nah, it's cool, he's from the Guardian.
 

Dennis

Banned
Jul 7, 2009
46,557
1
0
I am really glad this thread exists.

This kind of stuff exists in other business and media-related stuff too but just because it exists there doesn't mean gamers have to put up with it.

Hopefully this thread will actually change some people's reading habits and others' reporting habits.

In my experience it's tough sometimes as a writer on a blog/site/whatever b/c often times you're paid very little (paid per post or have a post requirement) and then there is a pre-approved list of "stories" or topics you can write about. Often times these "stories" are just links to PR releases or better yet, other sites' "articles" about that PR release. The writer doesn't really care about the story and has very little incentive to write something better than "passable" for that post. They do the bare minimum required to have that post "count" as a post and move on.

So from that perspective it might be easy to let the writer off the hook b/c they're "just doing their job" and the real "bad guys" are the people running the site and/or editors. But I don't think that is right. These "writers" need to stand up for better quality and integrity too, just like the readers need to demand better quality.

The problem, however, is that there are so many people that want to crack into this "business" that many writers feel/are easily replaced by someone that "plays ball." And because creating a site and getting a following isn't all that hard, the same can be said for websites. If one site stops playing ball, another will spring up to take its place.

This "business" needs to be changed from the top down, down up, inside out, and outside in if real lasting change is going to take place.

But like I said, this problem is not isolated to gaming sites. I used to live in San Diego and now San Diego's newspaper is basically just a mouthpiece for propaganda but it still is represented as "news." Here is a NY Times piece about that for those interested:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/11/business/media/san-diego-union-tribune-open-about-its-pro-business-motives.html

This post is already too long but screw it, right?

I was offerred a free trip across the country to cover a major video-game company presentation. I am not sure why representatives from this company contacted me and offered me the trip, etc, but it happened. They said they liked things I had posted about games and whatever before...so yeah...whatever.

I ACCEPTED THE TRIP. I was given no guidelines for what the company wanted from me or why they were sending me to this presentation. It wasn't like I was hired to cover the event by the company and sent there to write things for the company's site or told to tweet positive things, etc. Look, I'll be the first to admit, I'd be willing to do that but I'd make it VERY clear that is exactly what I was doing when I was doing those things. You would never see a tweet or something from me that was disguised as one thing when it was really another.

This trip, that wasn't the case. I wasn't hired by anyone to cover anything. I was told the company was familiar with past things I had done at similar events. They sent me there. The story goes...

I flew across the country, a car service picked me up from the airport, took me to the event, and I was provided food, etc. During the presentation at the event I started doing what I have always done at those types of events, tweeting my honest impressions and feelings along with some fashion updates on what people were wearing (b/c that cracks me up).

Then during the hands-on portion of the event I received a call from someone at PR saying essentially that they had read my tweets and then reminding me who paid for my trip. I was then told to meet a PR rep at the event where I would meet a company rep who would "work with me for the remainder of the event to make sure I was having the most enjoyable time possible and had all of my questions answered." I was babysat. I was so pissed about the whole experience.

I shot a bunch of video about the whole thing on my phone while there, as it was happening, my thoughts, etc. I decided not to really do anything with it b/c this business, like any business, is small and I didn't want to burn any bridges with "raw" "in the moment" emotions.

But the more I see stuff like this going on, the more I know we all need to stand up for everything we believe in, even if one of those things is just how games are covered, or whatever.

Dang. Sorry if this was long and didn't make sense.
Quoting for the new page.
 

Empty

Member
Sep 20, 2009
16,686
0
0
uk
twitter.com
What's the word over in SA?
it was talked about in the giant bomb thread last week but sa gaming is very megathread focused and there's no games journalism one so no dice

rllmuk and grcade (two decent sized uk gaming forums) are still talking about it a lot. idk about other places, i guess reddit were at one point from what people said here but i try to avoid that site.
 

EternalGamer

Banned
Nov 6, 2006
4,455
0
0
Then during the hands-on portion of the event I received a call from someone at PR saying essentially that they had read my tweets and then reminding me who paid for my trip. I was then told to meet a PR rep at the event where I would meet a company rep who would "work with me for the remainder of the event to make sure I was having the most enjoyable time possible and had all of my questions answered." I was babysat. I was so pissed about the whole experience.

I shot a bunch of video about the whole thing on my phone while there, as it was happening, my thoughts, etc. I decided not to really do anything with it b/c this business, like any business, is small and I didn't want to burn any bridges with "raw" "in the moment" emotions.
.
You should have posted that video footage. And thanks for speaking up about all of this, including the news coverage/preview stuff.

Here is one of the problems we face as readers. We will be told by the people running these sites that this is just how things are done. So it is good to have people that are in the business or have been in the business to argue alongside us that it doesn't have to be.

I do not want to go to read gaming news websites to be advertised to. At the very least attempt to put some critical distance between yourself and the press release. Comment on it, make it clear that this is a thing that PR sent you. Criticize, agree with it, reference other things. Think about whether or not it is actually a worthwhile thing or just covert free advertising.
 

The Wizard

Member
Dec 9, 2011
1,690
0
0
Ireland
steamcommunity.com
Wait. Someone is auctioning off an AC3 press kit provided by Ubisoft? Have they said what they plan to do with the money?
Buy himself another gaming website he can exploit by selling press kits for huge sums on ebay?
Hardcore Gamer Wikipedia page said:
On January 6, 2009, the gaming blog Kotaku[1] reported that Hardcore Gamer was listed for sale on the auction website eBay.[2] It was listed with a starting bid of US $42,000.00. The auction was ended early by the seller on January 13, 2009 at 15:57:21 PST. Former Editorial Director, Steve "Dack" Hannley, purchased Hardcore Gamer and continued publishing online content with all current staff.
 

JABEE

Member
May 19, 2010
44,040
0
645
I am really glad this thread exists.

This kind of stuff exists in other business and media-related stuff too but just because it exists there doesn't mean gamers have to put up with it.

Hopefully this thread will actually change some people's reading habits and others' reporting habits.

In my experience it's tough sometimes as a writer on a blog/site/whatever b/c often times you're paid very little (paid per post or have a post requirement) and then there is a pre-approved list of "stories" or topics you can write about. Often times these "stories" are just links to PR releases or better yet, other sites' "articles" about that PR release. The writer doesn't really care about the story and has very little incentive to write something better than "passable" for that post. They do the bare minimum required to have that post "count" as a post and move on.

So from that perspective it might be easy to let the writer off the hook b/c they're "just doing their job" and the real "bad guys" are the people running the site and/or editors. But I don't think that is right. These "writers" need to stand up for better quality and integrity too, just like the readers need to demand better quality.

The problem, however, is that there are so many people that want to crack into this "business" that many writers feel/are easily replaced by someone that "plays ball." And because creating a site and getting a following isn't all that hard, the same can be said for websites. If one site stops playing ball, another will spring up to take its place.

This "business" needs to be changed from the top down, down up, inside out, and outside in if real lasting change is going to take place.

But like I said, this problem is not isolated to gaming sites. I used to live in San Diego and now San Diego's newspaper is basically just a mouthpiece for propaganda but it still is represented as "news." Here is a NY Times piece about that for those interested:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/11/business/media/san-diego-union-tribune-open-about-its-pro-business-motives.html

This post is already too long but screw it, right?

I was offerred a free trip across the country to cover a major video-game company presentation. I am not sure why representatives from this company contacted me and offered me the trip, etc, but it happened. They said they liked things I had posted about games and whatever before...so yeah...whatever.

I ACCEPTED THE TRIP. I was given no guidelines for what the company wanted from me or why they were sending me to this presentation. It wasn't like I was hired to cover the event by the company and sent there to write things for the company's site or told to tweet positive things, etc. Look, I'll be the first to admit, I'd be willing to do that but I'd make it VERY clear that is exactly what I was doing when I was doing those things. You would never see a tweet or something from me that was disguised as one thing when it was really another.

This trip, that wasn't the case. I wasn't hired by anyone to cover anything. I was told the company was familiar with past things I had done at similar events. They sent me there. The story goes...

I flew across the country, a car service picked me up from the airport, took me to the event, and I was provided food, etc. During the presentation at the event I started doing what I have always done at those types of events, tweeting my honest impressions and feelings along with some fashion updates on what people were wearing (b/c that cracks me up).

Then during the hands-on portion of the event I received a call from someone at PR saying essentially that they had read my tweets and then reminding me who paid for my trip. I was then told to meet a PR rep at the event where I would meet a company rep who would "work with me for the remainder of the event to make sure I was having the most enjoyable time possible and had all of my questions answered." I was babysat. I was so pissed about the whole experience.

I shot a bunch of video about the whole thing on my phone while there, as it was happening, my thoughts, etc. I decided not to really do anything with it b/c this business, like any business, is small and I didn't want to burn any bridges with "raw" "in the moment" emotions.

But the more I see stuff like this going on, the more I know we all need to stand up for everything we believe in, even if one of those things is just how games are covered, or whatever.

Dang. Sorry if this was long and didn't make sense.
Thanks for your story. How common do you think this story is? I wonder how many people went to that event and did their "job."
 

conman

Member
Aug 12, 2007
4,591
0
0
Awesome post, Spicer.

If nothing else, what's wrong with a bit of expiation? Some good ol' fashioned confessional time? ;)

Also, no effing way. Chris Grant changed his mind? This is awesome. Viva la video game revolucion!
 

EternalGamer

Banned
Nov 6, 2006
4,455
0
0
Just because I want to counter the idea that all of this is a bunch of pie in the sky idealism, I want to note that I have learned there are people here who strive to do the exact things we all want and we should recognize them.

The Giant Bomb guys, for example, aren't perfect, but they look better and better. They don't post shit like that Pizza Hut Halo thing as news. They don't do crass infomercials. They de-emphasize trailers, and previews and focus on editorial content. They openly agreed with Rab about how disgusting the original actions were and Jeff spent a lot of time elaborating on their editorial policies about not allowing people to write for them that do mock reviews or state they have aspirations to enter game design. He even answered the criticism about the Nintendo 3DS video in a very reasonable manner. Good on them.

In hindsight, I also was reminded via this thread of just how much I miss GFW radio. Because those guys were always straight up and they talked about the exact stuff this thread has been about and openly criticized it regularly. We miss you guys. You were awesome.

Kotaku has a lot of the problems we have been talking about, but at least several of their editors have been willing to participate in this conversation rather than shut it down. They even changed their mind about running a story about the events and one of their editors said he will think about unboxing videos differently now. I still have a good deal of problems with them, but at least currently they seem to be listening, even when some of the criticism directed at them has been vitriolic. They deserve credit for that if nothing else.

Polygon and Shacknews are two sites that, in contradistinction, have drastically lost credibility to me so far. Polygon's quiteness on the subject itself and their censoring of the conversation on their own site says a lot about how they intend to approach things and about how they aren't really willing to question their policies. Weekend Confirmed's dismissal of the story alond with Andrea's shameful relationship with EA's monetarily rewarding Machinima content providers for videos posted about Need for Speed means they have severely lost credibility in my eyes.

It's not all good and it's not all bad. No person or no website gets a pass but these are just some of my thoughts thus far.
 

Lancehead

Member
Oct 27, 2011
2,788
0
0
Kotaku has a lot of the problems we have been talking about, but at least several of their editors have been willing to participate in this conversation rather than shut it down. They even changed their mind about running a story about the events and one of their editors said he will think about unboxing videos differently now. I still have a good deal of problems with them, but at least currently they seem to be listening, even when some of the criticism directed at them has been vitriolic. They deserve credit for that if nothing else.
Something else to note, for whatever it's worth: Schreirer also said he'll review how he approaches preview coverage.
 

mbmonk

Member
Jun 17, 2009
3,604
0
0
It's refreshing to see people in the games media publicly opening up about these events and situations at this specific moment in time. It's like some of them have just been waiting for the right moment to expose some of this stuff.
 

Gowans

Member
Sep 28, 2006
21,039
0
0
South Shields, UK
twitter.com
Brilliant post by Spicer, lots of eyes opened with the stuff in this thread from Rabs spark.

I really hope we don't have goldfish memories with this stuff an raise a stink and call people out in future like with Polygon etc.

I honestly think this is the tipping point now and momentum from the enthusiast community needs to be remain.
 

mbmonk

Member
Jun 17, 2009
3,604
0
0
If this goes on much longer I predict we will start to see a massive backlash from games journalists worried that they will suffer permanent prestige loss.

I expect them to start talking about witch hunts, personal agendas and immature misogynistic manchildren. You know, deflection stuff.
You must have read the weekend confirmed thread :)
 

Gomu Gomu

Member
Jul 16, 2008
8,291
0
0
I am really glad this thread exists.

This kind of stuff exists in other business and media-related stuff too but just because it exists there doesn't mean gamers have to put up with it.

Hopefully this thread will actually change some people's reading habits and others' reporting habits.

In my experience it's tough sometimes as a writer on a blog/site/whatever b/c often times you're paid very little (paid per post or have a post requirement) and then there is a pre-approved list of "stories" or topics you can write about. Often times these "stories" are just links to PR releases or better yet, other sites' "articles" about that PR release. The writer doesn't really care about the story and has very little incentive to write something better than "passable" for that post. They do the bare minimum required to have that post "count" as a post and move on.

So from that perspective it might be easy to let the writer off the hook b/c they're "just doing their job" and the real "bad guys" are the people running the site and/or editors. But I don't think that is right. These "writers" need to stand up for better quality and integrity too, just like the readers need to demand better quality.

The problem, however, is that there are so many people that want to crack into this "business" that many writers feel/are easily replaced by someone that "plays ball." And because creating a site and getting a following isn't all that hard, the same can be said for websites. If one site stops playing ball, another will spring up to take its place.

This "business" needs to be changed from the top down, down up, inside out, and outside in if real lasting change is going to take place.

But like I said, this problem is not isolated to gaming sites. I used to live in San Diego and now San Diego's newspaper is basically just a mouthpiece for propaganda but it still is represented as "news." Here is a NY Times piece about that for those interested:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/11/business/media/san-diego-union-tribune-open-about-its-pro-business-motives.html

This post is already too long but screw it, right?

I was offerred a free trip across the country to cover a major video-game company presentation. I am not sure why representatives from this company contacted me and offered me the trip, etc, but it happened. They said they liked things I had posted about games and whatever before...so yeah...whatever.

I ACCEPTED THE TRIP. I was given no guidelines for what the company wanted from me or why they were sending me to this presentation. It wasn't like I was hired to cover the event by the company and sent there to write things for the company's site or told to tweet positive things, etc. Look, I'll be the first to admit, I'd be willing to do that but I'd make it VERY clear that is exactly what I was doing when I was doing those things. You would never see a tweet or something from me that was disguised as one thing when it was really another.

This trip, that wasn't the case. I wasn't hired by anyone to cover anything. I was told the company was familiar with past things I had done at similar events. They sent me there. The story goes...

I flew across the country, a car service picked me up from the airport, took me to the event, and I was provided food, etc. During the presentation at the event I started doing what I have always done at those types of events, tweeting my honest impressions and feelings along with some fashion updates on what people were wearing (b/c that cracks me up).

Then during the hands-on portion of the event I received a call from someone at PR saying essentially that they had read my tweets and then reminding me who paid for my trip. I was then told to meet a PR rep at the event where I would meet a company rep who would "work with me for the remainder of the event to make sure I was having the most enjoyable time possible and had all of my questions answered." I was babysat. I was so pissed about the whole experience.

I shot a bunch of video about the whole thing on my phone while there, as it was happening, my thoughts, etc. I decided not to really do anything with it b/c this business, like any business, is small and I didn't want to burn any bridges with "raw" "in the moment" emotions.

But the more I see stuff like this going on, the more I know we all need to stand up for everything we believe in, even if one of those things is just how games are covered, or whatever.

Dang. Sorry if this was long and didn't make sense.
Thanks for sharing. That story is just wow.

By the way, you should have been on the latest weekend confirmed. Maybe try to be on the next episode?
 

jschreier

Member
Jan 6, 2011
4,045
0
0
www.twitter.com
Stories like that are just one of the reasons that most major websites (including Kotaku, Joystiq, Polygon, and I'm sure many others) don't allow publishers to pay for their travel arrangements.
 

conman

Member
Aug 12, 2007
4,591
0
0
Stories like that are just one of the reasons that most major websites (including Kotaku, Joystiq, Polygon, and I'm sure many others) don't allow publishers to pay for their travel arrangements.
But don't most major websites rely frequently on freelance work? Do those boundaries exist for that work, as well? Honest question.
 

SkyandSun

Banned
Feb 8, 2012
68
0
0
England
Not sure if this has been mooted somewhere in the 130 previous pages.

But I wonder if some kind of 'Games Journalist Charter' will emerge from this. A set of guiding principles based on common journalistic ideas, but themed to games, which websites can state they follow.
 

spirity

Member
Aug 4, 2007
4,184
0
0
Holy crap. Just got in from work and I'm digesting the last 12 or so hours of events. Weekend Confirmed's Andrea Rene, Hardcore Gamer and Polygon. Unbelievable.

A few people (Jason, Jeff, Stephen, perhaps others) wanted it to be known that not -everyone- is dirty, and of course I've no doubt that's true. To the people who have made an effort to conduct themselves with integrity and decency whilst doing their jobs; thanks. Seriously. If you're reading this and you know you're one of those people, thank you. If you've resisted pressures it probably wasn't easy to do when when you've seen others accept with glee. I wouldn't ever try speak on behalf of NeoGaf, we're all individuals, but I'm pretty sure they'd all share my sentiments.

To the blaggers, the liggers, the freeloaders, the chancers and the bullshitters; fuck you. Fuck you partly because.. well, because of you being all those things, and partly because you're making the good people in your profession look bad. I hope you're squirming right now, and I hope the light shines your way soon. It more than likely will.
 
Oct 2, 2007
2,079
0
0
UK
The first step would take some effort. And, even though I don't like to say this, I doubt we can get a group together to do all the research - especially for things like hiring practices.

But if we can get the framework done, I think the second step would be much easier to implement, and I imagine a lot of people would be enthusiastic about participating in that.
I think people could get the first part done. People are very passionate about this. (Just look at the thread.) And consider how much work some folks are willing to put into OTs for even niche games. I think the energy for this exists.

Why not give it a crack?
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Feb 19, 2008
44,017
0
0
I am really glad this thread exists.

This kind of stuff exists in other business and media-related stuff too but just because it exists there doesn't mean gamers have to put up with it.

Hopefully this thread will actually change some people's reading habits and others' reporting habits.

In my experience it's tough sometimes as a writer on a blog/site/whatever b/c often times you're paid very little (paid per post or have a post requirement) and then there is a pre-approved list of "stories" or topics you can write about. Often times these "stories" are just links to PR releases or better yet, other sites' "articles" about that PR release. The writer doesn't really care about the story and has very little incentive to write something better than "passable" for that post. They do the bare minimum required to have that post "count" as a post and move on.

So from that perspective it might be easy to let the writer off the hook b/c they're "just doing their job" and the real "bad guys" are the people running the site and/or editors. But I don't think that is right. These "writers" need to stand up for better quality and integrity too, just like the readers need to demand better quality.

The problem, however, is that there are so many people that want to crack into this "business" that many writers feel/are easily replaced by someone that "plays ball." And because creating a site and getting a following isn't all that hard, the same can be said for websites. If one site stops playing ball, another will spring up to take its place.

This "business" needs to be changed from the top down, down up, inside out, and outside in if real lasting change is going to take place.

But like I said, this problem is not isolated to gaming sites. I used to live in San Diego and now San Diego's newspaper is basically just a mouthpiece for propaganda but it still is represented as "news." Here is a NY Times piece about that for those interested:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/11/business/media/san-diego-union-tribune-open-about-its-pro-business-motives.html

This post is already too long but screw it, right?

I was offerred a free trip across the country to cover a major video-game company presentation. I am not sure why representatives from this company contacted me and offered me the trip, etc, but it happened. They said they liked things I had posted about games and whatever before...so yeah...whatever.

I ACCEPTED THE TRIP. I was given no guidelines for what the company wanted from me or why they were sending me to this presentation. It wasn't like I was hired to cover the event by the company and sent there to write things for the company's site or told to tweet positive things, etc. Look, I'll be the first to admit, I'd be willing to do that but I'd make it VERY clear that is exactly what I was doing when I was doing those things. You would never see a tweet or something from me that was disguised as one thing when it was really another.

This trip, that wasn't the case. I wasn't hired by anyone to cover anything. I was told the company was familiar with past things I had done at similar events. They sent me there. The story goes...

I flew across the country, a car service picked me up from the airport, took me to the event, and I was provided food, etc. During the presentation at the event I started doing what I have always done at those types of events, tweeting my honest impressions and feelings along with some fashion updates on what people were wearing (b/c that cracks me up).

Then during the hands-on portion of the event I received a call from someone at PR saying essentially that they had read my tweets and then reminding me who paid for my trip. I was then told to meet a PR rep at the event where I would meet a company rep who would "work with me for the remainder of the event to make sure I was having the most enjoyable time possible and had all of my questions answered." I was babysat. I was so pissed about the whole experience.

I shot a bunch of video about the whole thing on my phone while there, as it was happening, my thoughts, etc. I decided not to really do anything with it b/c this business, like any business, is small and I didn't want to burn any bridges with "raw" "in the moment" emotions.

But the more I see stuff like this going on, the more I know we all need to stand up for everything we believe in, even if one of those things is just how games are covered, or whatever.

Dang. Sorry if this was long and didn't make sense.
Do you still have the video?
 

conman

Member
Aug 12, 2007
4,591
0
0
So what is it about the Polygon piece that was off limits? Was it the close resemblance to the press release, or was it simply the cross-promotion?

If the former, I understand and agree. If the latter, we have a lot more work to do. How far do we go? A quick peek at another major site like Joystiq shows a good handful of cross-promotional "news" items. They do, however, include the full press release at the bottom of their stories. Is this the kind of disclosure and transparency we're looking for? Or do we want sites to think more carefully about posting this "news" in the first place?

Again, honest questions. My hope is that journalists themselves figure this out in a manner that we readers feel good about. I hope they're all thinking more carefully about this going forward.
 

EternalGamer

Banned
Nov 6, 2006
4,455
0
0
Garnet Lee, host of Weekend Confirmed, former EGM and 1up editor, posted in the Official WC Thread here on GAF and had this to say:

Garnett Lee said:
Wow, the witch hunt is really on then, is it?

I've staunchly advocated ethics throughout my editorial career. My point regarding journalist vs critic spoke specifically to the topic of investigative information gathering and reporting vs. subjective criticism based on a foundation of experience and analytic ability. Does it really need to be said that critics need to hold themselves to a high standard to maintain trust?

As for calling for Andrea's head, I'm following the thread back and we will look into it.

I can tell you that at no time has Machinima provided any form of compensation for having her on. If anything, I believe they'd prefer she didn't do a show on another outlet but it being audio keeps it below their threshold.

I suspect the tweet that's causing such uproar was not her hoping to win said t-shirt but instead promoting a contest running on her outlet. Pretty much SOP if your outlet has some sort of giveaway to retweet that to get it out there. But again, I don't know.

Garnett Lee said:
So keeping in mind that Machinima started life as YouTube channel the situation probably is something like this.

They have a network of content creators who make the shows that hit Machinima. They likely get some sort of rev share deal from the ads on their views I'd guess.

EA wants to get a bunch of NFS videos out on YouTube, puts one and one together, and concludes that it will give these creators a copy of the game and then some cash to incentivise them to do the videos ahead of other stuff they might cover. And then Machinima coordinates the getting games out to them and then showing them on their channel.

I don't work for them nor have I ever seen their deals but from what I've gathered it's something along these lines.

Now, the vids these creators post are clearly paid for. From what I've seen they're all live streams and that sort of thing. So it's hard to color the game you're seeing but I can definitely see where they'd be all about how cool it is since it's their income at the time.

That said, if I'm interested, I could probably watch the feed and just turn off the sound or ignore overly glowing stuff.
Ok, I abstained from bolding any of this, but I think it deserves to be talked about in this thread since this is where it all started.

Garnett's initial claim that this is a "witch hunt" and asking if it "really needs to be said" that critics needs to hold themselves to a high standard bothers me because it automatically sounds to me like he thinks the entire idea of scrutinizing game media coverage isn't justified because they can self police. I think if he simply bothered to look at all the very well written posts by former and current journalist linked to in this thread's OP, he would see that this is not the case. Again, these are industry insiders, former and current, making many of these arguments.

Second, the fact that he would apologize for those paid for videos hosted by Machinima by implying that the footage speaks for itself and that people could just turn down the sound if they wanted to is a pretty amazing piece of self rationalization. I honestly don't think he would ever come to that kind of conclusion if he didn't have a friend directly involved in it. At least, I hope he wouldn't.

But it seems to clear to me that this is Garnett's stance on the matter. I followed him since EGM, listened to every 1up Yours ever made, and every episode of Weekend Confirmed to date. I think I am done with this show now though. There are plenty of good games media personalities that have clearly demonstrates they ARE willing to hold themselves to a higher standard and that they ARE willing to take a hard look at how they do business. This thread had many, many examples of game writers demonstrating this. I side with them. I choose to support their content.
 

Foxtastical

Member
Feb 3, 2006
2,669
0
1,110
In hindsight, I also was reminded via this thread of just how much I miss GFW radio. Because those guys were always straight up and they talked about the exact stuff this thread has been about and openly criticized it regularly. We miss you guys. You were awesome.
For real.
 

Empty

Member
Sep 20, 2009
16,686
0
0
uk
twitter.com
i highly recommend listening to that gfw gerstmann saga episode again for people who haven't (it's linked in ledsen's meticulously detailed summaries). the issues are so similar and they have a lot of great insights.

but yeah listening to it again combined with shawn and jeff's posts here made its absence felt so painfully.
 

DangerStepp

Member
Sep 14, 2007
6,056
22
920
...

....

But it seems to clear to me that this is Garnet's stance on the matter. I followed him since EGM, listened to every 1up Yours ever made and every episode of Weekend Confirmed to date. I think I am done with this show now though. There are plenty of good games media personalities that have clearly demonstrates they ARE willing to hold themselves to a higher standard and that they ARE willing to take a hard look at how they do business. This thread had many, many examples of game writers demonstrating this. I side with them. I choose to support their content.
Sadly enough, me too, man.

Me too.
 

Margalis

Banned
Aug 7, 2008
2,954
0
0
I'm all for this stuff in general but posting what someone says in one thread into another thread tends to take things out of context and is also redundant.

In particular I don't think Garnett was dismissing or apologizing for what Machinima does, just working out loud what it does.

But that conversation is going on right now in that thread with full context, it seems a bit pointless and unfair to try to transport it to here sans context.
 

EternalGamer

Banned
Nov 6, 2006
4,455
0
0
I'm all for this stuff in general but posting what someone says in one thread into another thread tends to take things out of context and is also redundant.

In particular I don't think Garnett was dismissing or apologizing for what Machinima does, just working out loud what it does.

But that conversation is going on right now in that thread with full context, it seems a bit pointless and unfair to try to transport it to here sans context.
No that conversation started here. That thread is the one out of context. In fact, the conversation over there started because someone linked to MY POST in this thread, so please do not make it seem like I am trying to take anything out of context. I am rather re-inserting it back where the conversation started in order to contribute to it. Contary to what Garnett says, this thread has been extremely productive both for the audience and for those in the gaming media.

As for your second point, he literally said that if you don't want to hear the paid for spin in those videos you can always turn the sound down. I don't even know how you become a more blatant apologist than that. That's absolutely crazy. Maybe you are right about the idea that he is still thinking things through, though. Here's hoping.
 

conman

Member
Aug 12, 2007
4,591
0
0
No that conversation started here. That thread is the one out of context.

And he literally said that if you don't want to hear the paid for spin in those videos you can always turn the sound down. I don't even know how you become a more blatant apologist than that. That's absolutely crazy. Maybe you are right about the idea that he is still thinking things through, though. Here's hoping.
There's been a consistent pattern among many journalists over the past few days: bitter denial changes to defensiveness changes to reluctant acknowledgment changes to "you might be right. here's what I'm going to do." He's somewhere around step 1 or 2.

It really sucks that he thinks of this as a "witch hunt." He's the one in a position of authority. It's his job to be held accountable by his readers/listeners for his words. We may not have "elected" him, but we do choose whether or not to listen to/read his work. A real "witch hunt" would be if he used his media position to leverage unsubstantiated attacks on others. This isn't a witch hunt.
 

GillianSeed79

Member
Jan 8, 2009
8,636
0
0
Just because I want to counter the idea that all of this is a bunch of pie in the sky idealism, I want to note that I have learned there are people here who strive to do the exact things we all want and we should recognize them.

The Giant Bomb guys, for example, aren't perfect, but they look better and better. They don't post shit like that Pizza Hut Halo thing as news. They don't do crass infomercials. They de-emphasize trailers, and previews and focus on editorial content. They openly agreed with Rab about how disgusting the original actions were and Jeff spent a lot of time elaborating on their editorial policies about not allowing people to write for them that do mock reviews or state they have aspirations to enter game design. He even answered the criticism about the Nintendo 3DS video in a very reasonable manner. Good on them.
Power went out due to Hurricane Sandy last night, so I've missed the last 12 hours of discussion or so. One thing I haven't done in this thread that I've been meaning to do is give credit to Giant Bomb for being transparent about a lot these issues we are talking about. I kind of over reacted about the ACIII flag, so if I came off as a dick to Jeff or Ryan I apologize. I specifically remember how Jeff talked about how much of a waste of time the Capcom Captivate event was and they have always done a good job about being trasnparent about a lot of this stuff.
 

Tallshortman

Member
Jul 31, 2008
6,446
0
770
Wow this shit blew up, just been reading through some of the more notable personalities' posts about this. Well I'm glad something happened. It certainly bit gamestop in the ass during their whole controversy. Hopefully this puts more pressure on the gaming press to be less led by the leash by companies who use them as PR dolls.

I don't necessarily have a problem with people selling out (PR is a job after all) if they actually admit they're not trying to be unbiased.
 

demidar

Member
Feb 21, 2012
18,612
0
0
www.neogaf.com
I don't even know what Machinima is. I think it started as a Youtube account for machinima that has somehow grown to get industry sway with quick looks and funny skits and convention booths and coverage and whatever else. Are they an actual games "journalist" outlet?
 

EternalGamer

Banned
Nov 6, 2006
4,455
0
0
I don't even know what Machinima is. I think it started as a Youtube account for machinima that has somehow grown to get industry sway with quick looks and funny skits and convention booths and coverage and whatever else. Are they an actual games "journalist" outlet?
They call themselves a "next generation video entertainment network" on their about page (whatever that means) with both editorial and user generated content.

I only knew about it through Weekend Confirmed, to be honest, but I sure as heck didn't know that the site Andrea worked for was responsible for hooking up its "content creators" (note the ambiguous phrasing) with money from publishers for posting videos about their games. That is a blatant conflict of interest in my opinion. You are getting paid by a game designer to talk about their game. There is no grey area there.

And they are big. They have 138 million subscribers and 39.9 billion video views according to their own stats.

I don't actually know what Andrea's role is at Machinima. I searched their site. It seems clear she isn't on the "editorial" staff and by her own blog and description I can only assume that she is one of the "content creators." Here is what Andrea said about it on her Twitter feed:

@Raton_Laveur Actually you're 1st! And as per usual, the Gaf trolls don't realize those NFS videos WERE NOT REVIEWS, they were gameplay vids
Andrea Rene ‏@andrearene
@Massa_FG @GarnettLee The people in our network weren't paid to review the game by EA sir.
She or anyone else is free to come here and correct this but it seems to me that she is hiding behind the idea that the videos were not "reviews."

Regardless I find the whole idea of of publishers paying these "content creators" disgusting.
 

demidar

Member
Feb 21, 2012
18,612
0
0
www.neogaf.com
They call themselves a "next generation video entertainment network" on their about page (whatever that means) with both editorial and user generated content.

I only knew about it through Weekend Confirmed, to be honest, but I sure as heck didn't know that the site Andrea worked for was responsible for hooking up its "content creators" (note the ambiguous phrasing) with money from publishers for posting videos about their games. That is a blatant conflict of interest in my opinion. You are getting paid by a game designer to talk about their game. There is no grey area there.

And they are big. They have 138 million subscribers and 39.9 billion video views according to their own stats.
Haha that sounds really up its own arse. Scanning through their website I see machinima (would be weird if they didn't have any) and live action stuff. Okay far as I can see it's an entertainment group with a focus around video games kinda? Arby 'n' the Chief was great when it wasn't picked up by Machinima, wonder if it's still any good.

Either way, I still don't see how they can be considered a reviews outfit.
 

NateDrake

Member
Dec 12, 2010
13,702
0
645
Stories like that are just one of the reasons that most major websites (including Kotaku, Joystiq, Polygon, and I'm sure many others) don't allow publishers to pay for their travel arrangements.
Funny enough, I know a guy who got flown out to San Fran for an AC3 preview session and recently bitched about it online because they didn't send him a review copy.
 

EternalGamer

Banned
Nov 6, 2006
4,455
0
0
Either way, I still don't see how they can be considered a reviews outfit.
Their editors post reviews, but she seems to be part of a "network" not the editorial staff at Machinima. I frankly don't care what you call it. Anyone that is paid by a company to post videos, you are compromised, end of story. Especially if you don't make it clear to me that you are being paid by the company. It does not matter whether or not you call it a "review." That is a bullshit semantic distinction to hide behind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.