Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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Dec 5, 2008
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Loved to read that Slate piece, but I don't think, like its author seem to think, that gaming press that responded to the angry mob with the "Gamers are dead" kind of articles are addressing all their audience in a suicidal autophagic move. That would be obtuse like he says in his article opening. "Gamer" in quotations, is more or less defined in all those articles as the hyperconsumer, narrow minded, loud, toxic, vitriolic and filled with hatred, nebulous group that is steering this concerted campaign, and their thesis is that that group of people is on the way to extinction. Now, this is the point where I agree with Slate's author again. This is only wishful thinking, and naive. This group is fed by the industry and themselves return the favor in a symbiotic relationship. These people are early adopters, day oners, the premium valued eyeballs and opinion makers or breakers of this industry. They're loud and powerful. They won't disappear. They represent too much money to suddenly disappear.
 
Oct 27, 2011
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just to be clear i agree with your attitude to this whole thing. i'm just trying to draw attention to the pointlessness of giving up on 'gamer' due to the repugnant opinions that other 'gamers' possess
I have no interest in giving up the gamer label, and I wouldn't tell anyone else to either.

My issue is with the gamergate movement. There has been enough evidence shown that radical anti-feminists (Adam Baldwin) have been involved from the start, and there has been significant organized pushes from groups in 4chan and elsewhere to use the tag to engage in harassment of journalists (largely women, and men who push for better representation of women) who they have listed as "enemies", eventually pushing some of them to quit the industry.

There are plenty of decent people who jumped onboard because they have legitimate complaints about the industry, and wanted to join in with others who seemed to feel the same way. I don't think they are bad people, I just think they backed the wrong horse (probably without realizing it).

Going forward, people who have legitimate complaints about games journalism would do well to consider who they ally themselves with, and how they approach these matters. They shouldn't stop speaking up for what they believe in.
 
Not sure casting yourself as similar to the Twilight fandom is doing your side any favors.
Not my side. I think both sides are falling into tribalism, and being counterproductive to their goals.

You're not going to get better representation for women by trashing male-focused products. You will breed resentment.

You won't get better journalism by attacking journalists. You're giving them the publicity for they thrive upon.

Both sides need to stop escalating the situation. Both sides should be positive consumers of what they like, and stop doing on the offensive. That is how you will get what you want.
 
Aug 24, 2009
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Not my side. I think both sides are falling into tribalism, and being counterproductive to their goals.

You're not going to get better representation for women by trashing male-focused products. You will breed resentment.

You won't get better journalism by attacking journalists. You're giving them the publicity for they thrive upon.

Both sides need to stop escalating the situation. Both sides should be positive consumers of what they like, and stop doing on the offensive. That is how you will get what you want.
Well done. That's simply it.
 
Aug 24, 2009
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All said and done, this may be the weirdest thing I read related to this chaos:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/DevinWilson/20140828/224450/A_Guide_to_Ending_quotGamersquot.php
These people have dogmatic views of what games need to be
The irony in that statement when you read the whole article is pretty funny actually, considering he is taking a VERY dogmatic stance.

He essentially wants to force a change, when really change only happens naturally because people accept it. That partially includes, writing articles that are inclusive and not combative, because starting in a combative state will not wield any results, unless you want war.

That Forbes articles is great btw.
 
Jun 24, 2014
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Jun 26, 2013
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Another great read from him. He hits it on the head for the most part I think too.
I agree, that it a good read through and trying to point out the lay of the land without deciding to swim upstream or downstream in the river that runs through it.

I did though have a laugh when I hit this line. "If you don’t like what you’re reading, go start your own game publication."

Not only does it mirror the "make your own game" commentary that gets shouted down (and he attempts to address, but doesn't do so very well in my opinion since the comment is completely in regard to scale rather than success and accuracy), but it also goes against previous statements being made in regard to independant reviewers like youtube personalities and warnings regarding potential biased narratives.

He goes on to the "don't play it if you don't like it/vote with your wallet" style argument that also gets shouted down as well. Actual quote, "If someone writes a post about social justice issues or records a feminist YouTube video, you can simply ignore it—the way I ignore the Men’s Rights movement."

Article was fine, but it probably could have just skipped those two paragraphs and been better overal. I think a missed opportunity occured as well when not going on to emphasise the opinion of the individual is not necessarily representitive of the audience as a whole or even required to be adopted by society at large and thus rendering the opinion political in nature and the need or lack of need to include that within, what is at its core, a review of a piece of software.

edit: thanks for posting that btw raven.
 
I agree, that it a good read through and trying to point out the lay of the land without deciding to swim upstream or downstream in the river that runs through it.

I did though have a laugh when I hit this line. "If you don’t like what you’re reading, go start your own game publication."

Not only does it mirror the "make your own game" commentary that gets shouted down (and he attempts to address, but doesn't do so very well in my opinion since the comment is completely in regard to scale rather than success and accuracy), but it also goes against previous statements being made in regard to independant reviewers like youtube personalities and warnings regarding potential biased narratives.

He goes on to the "don't play it if you don't like it/vote with your wallet" style argument that also gets shouted down as well. Actual quote, "If someone writes a post about social justice issues or records a feminist YouTube video, you can simply ignore it—the way I ignore the Men’s Rights movement."

Article was fine, but it probably could have just skipped those two paragraphs and been better overal. I think a missed opportunity occured as well when not going on to emphasise the opinion of the individual is not necessarily representitive of the audience as a whole or even required to be adopted by society at large and thus rendering the opinion political in nature and the need or lack of need to include that within, what is at its core, a review of a piece of software.

edit: thanks for posting that btw raven.
Actually you should be thanking Verger. I just happened to comment on it.
 
Aug 24, 2009
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Really great takedown of how outside voices are trying to turn this into a proxy war. If I would want #GamerGate supporters to take notice of any one thing, it's that fact.
I really like the article, but am a little saddened that the takeaway from this is that the only outside influences in this whole ordeal are conservative.
 
Aug 24, 2009
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He doesn't say it's just conservative. He just uses that as an example of outside forces getting involved.
Was more referring to Kaiterra's reaction because he applied to only #gamergate, but yeah the original article only uses conservatives as examples.

He doesn't outright state it, it's just the impression it gives off.
 
Oct 18, 2012
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Hey mods, if you're reading this, I wish you hadn't locked that Slate thread. There was some good discussion there about a single topic, whereas this thread is kind of about 500 things at once. (kinda like GamerGate!
I feel the same way. That article was a distinct reaction to a trend in other editorials, which I appreciated having its own space.
 
Jan 20, 2010
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Hey mods, if you're reading this, I wish you hadn't locked that Slate thread. There was some good discussion there about a single topic, whereas this thread is kind of about 500 things at once. (kinda like GamerGate!)
I agree. This stuff is not about Dorito-gate anymore. This thread should be reserved for that topic. This gamergate shit should go in it's own thread, so as to not taint this one. The Eric Kaine article would be a good starting point for such a thread, as it does a good job of summarizing the issue for people who did not follow from the start, plus puts forth a good argument.
 
Jul 14, 2010
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GTA V reviews absolutely did mention these issues.

Polygon: ...but the population is aggressively, comically, distractingly male. I cannot think of any piece of media more fascinated with the male phallus."

Gamespot: "Characters constantly spout lines that glorify male sexuality while demeaning women, and the billboards and radio stations of the world reinforce this misogyny, with ads that equate manhood with sleek sports cars while encouraging women to purchase a fragrance that will make them “smell like a bitch.” Yes, these are exaggerations of misogynistic undercurrents in our own society, but not satirical ones. With nothing in the narrative to underscore how insane and wrong this is, all the game does is reinforce and celebrate sexism."

Naturally there was backlash over reviewers daring to mention such trivial concerns in a review. Especially towards the Gamespot one, which only gave it a 9/10 and happened to be written by a woman.
It's interesting that some of those complaints could be made about the movie Fight Club.
There were also similar criticisms about True Detective not having strong female characters.
I'd say all three of those examples explore masculinity in modern society and arguably only True Detective show it in vaguely positive light.

Personally I think the criticism of all three on those grounds is unfair but regardless of my views the way women are treated in that type of western media is a different issue to the Japanese examples.
 
Well since it did get closed I'm going to quote here.

Imru’ al-Qays;128494562 said:
The most coherent takes on this whole affair have come from Forbes and Slate. That tells you all you need to know, I think.
That's the truth too. It really tells you a lot when non gaming dedicated press are doing a better job of giving a impartial take on this then the press that should be covering this but instead choose to make themselves a part of the story.
 
Jan 4, 2011
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i had forgotten about the whole jessica chobot thing. i had just wrote it off as "i knew ign was a bit too enamored with mass effect to the point of ridiculousness but whatever" until THAT. but i overlooked that over the entitled gamer line that started going through rounds.

i think that was the time i started to notice the "people" that wrote the articles more than the people on g4.
 
Jun 26, 2013
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Very interesting article, I also like how he mentions the Mass Effect 3 ending controversy again, was pretty much the first big crack.
He could have included the no DRM pushback as well and how gamers weren't collectively ready for such things according to a couple places. Splitting hairs would be traveling down the path of percievable frame rates and telling folks it doesn't matter among other more nuanced things that have occurred over the past year or so.
 
Feb 13, 2009
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Jason, was just wondering about this post of yours. If you look at the unique visitors from 'Online', that stays fairly flat (if not decreasing from peaks in 2011.)

If unique visitors are tracked by cookies in a browser, is it statistically correct to add mobile and online users and use a total number? I would think a lot of regular visitors to the website now visit via multiple devices?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=128490449&postcount=42
 
Jan 6, 2011
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Jason, was just wondering about this post of yours. If you look at the unique visitors from 'Online', that stays fairly flat (if not decreasing from peaks in 2011.)

If unique visitors are tracked by cookies in a browser, is it statistically correct to add mobile and online users and use a total number? I would think a lot of regular visitors to the website now visit via multiple devices?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=128490449&postcount=42
I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics, and I know we have internal metrics too, but the number Kotaku's staff care about is U.S. people per month. You can see that by going on Quantcast and checking U.S./people: https://www.quantcast.com/kotaku.com

So our actual readership, using that "people" term instead of uniques, would be 10m global readers per month, and about 5.2m U.S. readers.
 
Feb 13, 2009
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I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics, and I know we have internal metrics too, but the number Kotaku's staff care about is U.S. people per month. You can see that by going on Quantcast and checking U.S./people: https://www.quantcast.com/kotaku.com

So our actual readership, using that "people" term instead of uniques, would be 10m global readers per month, and about 5.2m U.S. readers.
That's interesting, thank you. I will have to read up a little more on this. Without a good knowledge of the metrics (whether they are also IP/time based or network path based), it might not be accurate to say 7m unique online visitors + 3m unique mobile visitors equals 10m total unique visitors.
 
Jul 27, 2013
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Dang, I just gotta say, that Erik Kain article from Forbes is really good. It's fair and even-keeled journalism I wish we were getting from other online sources. And it puts everything in perspective rather well.
 
Jul 3, 2012
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I think the forbes article just washes over all the hateful and horrible things that have happened and just writes as if it isn't real people having their personal lives thrown about.

This led to an initial outcry over corruption in the video game press. Sex for positive coverage was the spark that fueled what has now become a huge gamer backlash against the video game press under the hashtag #GamerGate. While the initial concerns were quickly proven to be all smoke and no fire, the revelations led to further questions by many gamers, and so the #GamerGate movement was born.
Well that's all fine then is it? The way he just brushes over the whole thing is baffling. A woman had her name dragged through the mud and had intimate details of her life spread across the internet and he writes as if that is a perfectly reasonable thing.

Update: I should note here that much of the online harassment we see against women is very troubling. I’m just not sure anyone, including myself, knows how to put an end to it.)
Maybe by writing articles condemning it and not making excuses for them and the culture which surrounds them?
 
Dec 6, 2006
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Very interesting article, I also like how he mentions the Mass Effect 3 ending controversy again, was pretty much the first big crack.
It really was, though even then things had been pushing against the ice for a while, for some it was the Modern Warfare 2 no servers thing, for others it was the general waving off of bad dlc practices, but for me yeah, it really was the ME3 response. What got me then, as it does now, is the damn near uniformity of opinion by a lot of the press. Yes, I understand that it doesn't include everyone, but going from site to site, the 'entitled gamers' narrative really coalesced then. At that point it felt just plain odd, I understood that people would have differing opinions on the whole thing, but what seems really strange was that there were practically no real dissenting op-eds at all, not even straw-men op-eds. It appeared similar in the second big disconnect, which was the XB1 DRM debate. Again, the vast majority of stories fell on the side of Microsoft. Say what you will about Fox News, or MSNBC (and I'll probably agree) but at least they have the other side around around to at least show differences of opinion.

If there are multiple sides to an issue, or shall we say multiple thoughtful sides, and you can't find at least one person on staff who can speak to that opinion? Shouldn't a site feel like it's a bit homogeneous? At least maybe look to bring in op-eds from outside sources to flesh things out. Again, I completely expect there to be differences of opinion on issues that could be considered controversial, I expect that a lot of times I will disagree with op-eds. What I don't expect is a lack of diversity in opinion within the press itself.

Now to be fair, I haven't focused on these sites in recent years as much as I used to, but when I do, it certainly appears, on the surface that there isn't a whole lot of variance of opinion on these bigger controversies.
 
Jul 18, 2009
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I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics, and I know we have internal metrics too, but the number Kotaku's staff care about is U.S. people per month. You can see that by going on Quantcast and checking U.S./people: https://www.quantcast.com/kotaku.com

So our actual readership, using that "people" term instead of uniques, would be 10m global readers per month, and about 5.2m U.S. readers.
Has Kotaku or other sites been posting non gamer related articles on their site at all, or would you say the focus is more or the same as it has always been
this is not me trying to demean kotaku, I just wanna know if that could also explain the amount of unique visitors, or whether your coverage of games is netting you more viewers
 
Jul 14, 2013
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I agree. This stuff is not about Dorito-gate anymore. This thread should be reserved for that topic. This gamergate shit should go in it's own thread, so as to not taint this one. The Eric Kaine article would be a good starting point for such a thread, as it does a good job of summarizing the issue for people who did not follow from the start, plus puts forth a good argument.
Agreed.
 
Dec 6, 2006
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I know this may be confusing, being used to a particular brand of writing, but journalistic reporting is supposed to be impartial.
To be fair, the piece isn't exactly a straight journalism piece either, it does go into opinion and his take towards the end. He did look as if he was trying to be as impartial as possible when it came to the history of the whole scandal, however.
 
Jun 24, 2014
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Was more referring to Kaiterra's reaction because he applied to only #gamergate, but yeah the original article only uses conservatives as examples.

He doesn't outright state it, it's just the impression it gives off.
I think it's a lesson best applied to #GamerGate being that Adam Baldwin is the one who coined the hashtag in the first place.

EDIT: Erik Kain himself said the column wasn't an example of journalism.
 

Lime

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Apr 27, 2008
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wow that Fobes article by Erik Kain is underresearched and misunderstood trite. Did he even interview anyone across the spectrum? Did he even contact "a woman" or someone in the know?

Its conclusion even overlooks the aspect of how harassment and misogyny have seeped through everything throughout this ordeal.
 
Jan 15, 2008
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I know this may be confusing, being used to a particular brand of writing, but journalistic reporting is supposed to be impartial.
I guess this is where my personal dissonance comes in, because there is absolutely nothing that has happen that you can look at impartially and come out with the conclusion that any of the attacks and how far and vicious it is have gone, can be defended.. nothing.. at all.
 
Jul 18, 2009
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wow that Fobes article by Erik Kain is underresearched and misunderstood garbage. Did he even interview anyone across the spectrum? Did he even contact "a woman" or someone in the know?

Its conclusion even overlooks the aspect of how harassment and misogyny have seeped through everything throughout this ordeal.
He knows no one who's ever been a part of the industry and has never seen a woman before in his entire life.

I guess this is where my personal dissonance comes in, because there is absolutely nothing that has happen that you can look at impartially and come out with the conclusion that any of the attacks and how far and vicious it is have gone, can be defended.. nothing.. at all.
Neogaf users determine what can be looked at impartially.
 
Feb 17, 2012
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Man why that did that other thread get locked, some good discussion focused on that topic in there.

This thread has a shitty title and is far too broad, I never would've known about the Slant article without the other thread.

Who's a mod I can annoy about this?
 

Lime

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Apr 27, 2008
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He knows no one who's ever been a part of the industry and has never seen a woman before in his entire life.
You know what I mean. If he had interviewed or talked to women in the games industry about their perspectives on this debacle, I'm sure he would get a proper reply. Hell, he could have just read the excellent and "diplomatic" articles that Liz Ryerson have put out.
 
Jul 18, 2009
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You know what I mean. If he had interviewed or talked to women in the games industry about their perspectives on this debacle, I'm sure he would get a proper reply. Hell, he could have just read the excellent and "diplomatic" articles that Liz Ryerson have put out.
Im sure he has never spoken to a single women in the industry about this

Im 100% positive that there are no women in the industry that are supporters of gamergate

Man why that did that other thread get locked, some good discussion focused on that topic in there.

This thread has a shitty title and is far too broad, I never would've known about the Slant article without the other thread.

Who's a mod I can annoy about this?
You can PM any mod currently on about threads. If you ever have an issue with a banning, or a topic closure, then all mods can be talked to about it. They might not agree with opening/unbanning, but they will answer you back
 
Apr 20, 2014
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You know what I mean. If he had interviewed or talked to women in the games industry about their perspectives on this debacle, I'm sure he would get a proper reply. Hell, he could have just read the excellent and "diplomatic" articles that Liz Ryerson have put out.
You know he did write that he tried to reach Quinn and is awaiting a response right.

I don't think discrediting his whole article because he didn't spin it entirely around mysoginy or harassment is relevant to his actual point regarding the gamergate movement
 
May 20, 2009
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wow that Fobes article by Erik Kain is underresearched and misunderstood trite. Did he even interview anyone across the spectrum? Did he even contact "a woman" or someone in the know?

Its conclusion even overlooks the aspect of how harassment and misogyny have seeped through everything throughout this ordeal.
Ask him on twitter.

Or just continue to spew unfounded assumptions and assertions in here because you can't handle a writer having a perspective on this issue that isn't in lockstep with your own.
 
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