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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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Lime

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Apr 27, 2008
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noirvisage, you need to read up on this stuff before you post.

Ok Proof that she is promoting Tomb Raider on her Twitter in exchange for something form the SquareEnix PR team.

He even says "I"m sure she isn't" ... then why even post, if he is sure she is not guilty then why call her out? Obviously he does think she is guilty of this. That was a blatant contradiction in his article.
Lol did you even read the article? People have been repeating this thing for ages: Florence wasn't accusing them of corruption, but of not being self-aware of how it might look to their readers. That they didn't reflect on how much they are blurring the lines between PR and journalism.
 

NoirVisage

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Sep 12, 2011
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Ok Proof that she is promoting Tomb Raider on her Twitter in exchange for something form the SquareEnix PR team.

He even says "I"m sure she isn't" ... then why even post, if he is sure she is not guilty then why call her out? Obviously he does think she is guilty of this. That was a blatant contradiction in his article.
bingo..not sure if you're being sarcastic, but that's my point.
 

Lancehead

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Oct 27, 2011
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Ok Proof that she is promoting Tomb Raider on her Twitter in exchange for something form the SquareEnix PR team.

He even says "I"m sure she isn't" ... then why even post, if he is sure she is not guilty then why call her out? Obviously he does think she is guilty of this. That was a blatant contradiction in his article.
What? He didn't say that either.

"I'm sure she isn't" does not mean "I know she isn't".

You seem to have missed the whole point of the article. That such close relationships with the PR departments can cast doubts on one's work.
 

kodt

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Dec 10, 2008
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noirvisage, you need to read up on this stuff before you post.

Lol did you even read the article? People have been repeating this thing for ages: Florence wasn't accusing them of corruption, but of not being self-aware of how it might look to their readers. That they didn't reflect on how much they are blurring the lines between PR and journalism.
So he is saying the issue today with "gaming journalism" is just a perception issue and not a real issue?

What? He didn't say that either.

"I'm sure she isn't" does not mean "I know she isn't".

You seem to have missed the whole point of the article. That such close relationships with the PR departments can cast doubts on one's work.
I'm sure and I know are pretty much equal. I know carries more weight, but saying "I'm sure of it" is pretty much saying I have no doubts.

And by pointing out this fact he is in fact casting doubts on their work...
 
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not defending her, couldn't care less about her, i'm calling him on naming names when he had no reason to in the article he was told to write, then continuing his attention seeking ways in a follow.
The only thing he did was show her twitter messages with the has tag and said it calls her objectivity into question. He didn't say she was a corporate shill (which she is) nor did he say she was guilty of anything merely that it called her enthusiasm for TR into question. That's not libel. He actually says that he knows people are in bed with PR and specifically makes a point to NOT name them...maybe you just need to re-read the thread
 

NoirVisage

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Sep 12, 2011
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What? He didn't say that either.

"I'm sure she isn't" does not mean "I know she isn't".

You seem to have missed the whole point of the article. That such close relationships with the PR departments can cast doubts on one's work.
you're not gullible.. are you really?
 

Lime

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So he is saying the issue today with "gaming journalism" is just a perception issue and not a real issue?
Read the original excerpt of the article. And if you're still in doubt, read the follow-up below:

http://botherer.org/2012/10/26/guest-post-robert-florence-on-the-last-few-days/

I want to clarify here that at no point in my column did I suggest that either Dave Cook or Lauren Wainwright were corrupt. Their public tweets were purely evidence that games writers rarely question what their relationship with PR should be. In Lauren’s case I made the point that her suggestion that it’s fine for a games writer to tweet a promotional hashtag for personal gain could make everything she tweets and writes suspect. I was saying – “Folks, be careful what you say. You might make yourself look bad.” There was nothing libellous in that column.
 

faceless007

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I think that he's just worried that if the focus remains on her then people may ignore that this is a much bigger problem. There's no way that she's the only one doing that. And some of the response that he's received over this issue shows that.
Right. Even if Wainwright is permanently exiled from the industry, blacklisted by every blog and magazine, and so scarred by the attacks over the last day that she never wants to write about games again, then what? The PR-community manager incest is still there. The marketing-blogger symbiosis is still there. The total lack of real journalistic standards from any notable publication is still there. Focusing the attention on her incredibly bone-headed tweets and cover-up just obscures the much larger issue.

What's even more galling than anything Wainwright did is the implication from Florence's tweet that he's blackballed from much of the industry, and the suggestion from his article that the pressure to change the article didn't come from Wainwright but from higher powers. That should be absolutely chilling to anyone who cares about writing in this industry in the slightest.
 

snap0212

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May 9, 2006
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bingo..not sure if you're being sarcastic, but that's my point.
The point of the article never was to call someone out for having ties to any corporations. That's at least not what I thought when reading the article.

To me, it looked way more like he was pointing out that some journos walk a very thin line that could hurt their credibility... while also saying that he doesn't think it actually hurts their cred.
 

Dave Long

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If PR really put the pressure on Eurogamer to change that, Bramwell fucked up royally. He should've responded to them with, "CAN I QUOTE YOU ON THAT?" and it would've ended right fucking there.

Get some fucking backbone, games jounalists!
 

kodt

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Dec 10, 2008
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Read the original excerpt of the article. And if you're still in doubt, read the follow-up below:

http://botherer.org/2012/10/26/guest-post-robert-florence-on-the-last-few-days/
Damage control.

The only thing he did was show her twitter messages with the has tag and said it calls her objectivity into question. He didn't say she was a corporate shill (which she is) nor did he say she was guilty of anything merely that it called her enthusiasm for TR into question. That's not libel. He actually says that he knows people are in bed with PR and specifically makes a point to NOT name them...maybe you just need to re-read the thread
Why would he avoid naming people he is sure are actually guilty of being in bed with PR and instead using others "he is sure are not guilty of it" as examples.

It's silly, this is like saying "I'm sure Suzie is not a prostitute, but let me post 5 pieces of evidence suggesting that she is"
 

JimFear

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Apr 27, 2009
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i like how all of the major gaming website isnt talking about this and how most of the site who were talking about this were more "obscure/unkown"


So at the end, i guess its a lesson learned and it has proven what we all had a doubt about.




So called journalist aka blogger are only pr puppets. When was the last time you heard someone asking real question to confront the guy in front of him?
Probably never. Its always some verry basic question like "your game is amazing, what will be the difference between this game and the game before" "how many people worked on this game?"
 

kodt

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Dec 10, 2008
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What "damage" is he trying to control?
Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
 

Curufinwe

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May 20, 2009
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Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
No he isn't. Try reading it again, but with your eyes open this time.
 

Tzeentch

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Aug 9, 2007
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That's just it, there won't be any consequences of this incident and that imo is the saddest thing of all...
-- Nah, people will just laugh even harder then they already do when "game" and "journalist" are placed next to each other. Couldn't happen to a more deserving crowd of second-rate PR clowns.
 

Juken

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Apr 26, 2012
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Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
He is clarifying what he meant as a number of people such as yourself have misinterpreted him.
 

Osiris

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Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
You have reading comprehension issues, maybe go back to school and try this again when you've mastered your ABC's.
 

faceless007

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Mar 11, 2008
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Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
He isn't doing that at all. His point in the follow-up is exactly the same as it was in the original piece. But it's a subtle point, apparently too subtle for some to grasp.
 

grimshawish

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Dec 30, 2011
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Rab's right. The focus should move away Lauren Wainwright and what happened yesterday. It was completely wrong and the criticism of her actions was completely justified, but there's not much more that can be said about it. It's moved beyond that, it's time to look at the wider issue. As he said, issues such as the role of PR people and their potential interference with games writing.
Yup, as a few said - why didn't anyone interupt what she was doing? Their all happy Lauren is taking the story away with her silly actions.

I have to talk about Lauren Wainwright. Her first reaction after the column went out was to claim the piece was libellous. Lauren is clearly a writer with many friends in the games press and in games PR. I think it is shameful, and very telling, that none of them talked her out of a course of action that could only end horribly for everyone involved. The internet is a savage thing, and these friends let her fling herself into its jaws. I feel for Lauren in a way, because I don’t think she’s corrupt. I said as much in my piece. I think that she’s behaved how she’s been conditioned to behave by her fellow writers and by her PR friends. I think she did one of the worst things one writer can do to another, but I don’t think she’s “on the take”. And her actions since, supported by people who know better, have made her a focal point for a piece that was never about her. She has faced the ugly side of these internet dramas, where people dig into your past and highlight all your mistakes. She’s faced nasty comments based on her sex and her looks, because that’s what some corners of the internet do to women.
I am furious. I am furious because yesterday the games PR and marketing men flung a few people under a bus, and today they’re probably sipping drinks at the Golden Joystick awards. I am furious that some people think we should all just “move on” from this, allowing the PR people to get back to their narrative. I am furious that some are saying that it’s “just games”. It’s not games. It’s writing. And writing matters. Writing always matters.
Lauren was just pulled in by people. They gave her work and friendship. When things went bad they dropped her like a stone. Its not a mistake people were mentioning the upcoming releases in this thread. Thats the aim, get to them and pretend none of this happened.

Despite the fact quite frankly the industry has to create room for some sort of journalistic integrity at some level.
In the end Lauren directly attacked this entire idea with the libel claim (I've said before how uncomfortable I find the idea of a journalist suing another using these claims, she was taught about them to protect her when writing a story, not when someone else was quoting her twitter).


Am going with Jim. We need to stop pretending that an entertainment site is not a newspaper; but to do that we need more sites that provide journalism as their core. We see writers on these entertainment sites all the time trying to break out - they get what? One article, and never any ability to investigate freely.
 

kodt

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Dec 10, 2008
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He is clarifying what he meant as a number of people such as yourself have misinterpreted him.
Even if he is telling the truth. This is still damage control.

People went nuts on Lauren as a result of his article, now he is writing a "hey take it easy guys I didn't mean it like that" article as damage control.
 

snap0212

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May 9, 2006
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Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
Might be because English isn't my first language but everything in that article sounds like the same song he's been singing since the article was first posted. He seems a bit pissed now, though.
 

Juken

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Apr 26, 2012
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Even if he is telling the truth. This is still damage control.

People went nuts on Lauren as a result of his article, now he is writing a "hey take it easy guys I didn't mean it like that" article as damage control.
People went nuts on Lauren as a result of Lauren's response to his article.
 

Lime

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Apr 27, 2008
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Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
Are you kidding me? Read the damn unedited original article:

And instantly I am suspicious. I am suspicious of this journalist's apparent love for Tomb Raider. I am asking myself whether she's in the pocket of the Tomb Raider PR team. I'm sure she isn't, but the doubt is there. After all, she sees nothing wrong with journalists promoting a game to win a PS3, right?

[...]

Standards are important. They are hard to live up to, sure, but that's the point of them. The trouble with games journalism is that there are no standards. We expect to see Geoff Keighley sitting beside a table of s***. We expect to see the flurry of excitement when the GMAs get announced, instead of a chuckle and a roll of the eyes. We expect to see our games journos failing to get what journalistic integrity means. The brilliant writers, like John Walker for example, don't get the credit they deserve simply because they don't play the game. Indeed, John Walker gets told to get off his pedestal because he has high standards and is pointing out a worrying problem.
He is not saying they are corrupt. He is saying that game journalists in general are not aware how to act ethically and with integrity. Because they act as such, their readers become suspicious.

She's a 25/26 year old with a journalism degree and has had work published by various high-profile websites and a national newspaper. She should have known better given her experience.
Thanks for correcting.
 
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The mere appearence of impropriety is the issue here. Honestly, GAF members shouldn't be the ones explaining this to paid professionals. Google "journalism ethics".
Exactly. More often than not it's about "what it looks like" than what it actually is.

I work for the government in New Zealand, processing different types of application forms. If an application for a person you know comes across your desk, you are to immediately hand the form to your superior and report the event.

It seems like overkill but it is to protect yourself from coming under questions of integrity. It's not just that you may have done something favourable for them because you know them. Even if this didn't happen, what's more important is that the mere fact that you handled a friend's application creates the possible impression that there could be a conflict of interest. And that is enough to bring your integrity into question.

You can deny that you are influenced by PR, flights to dev offices, and the free swag all day long. But a truly ethical, respectable journalist would never have put themselves in this position in the first place.

Polygon, for example. Gies says he isn't biased. But that $750,000 they accepted from Microsoft for their documentary puts a question mark over not just their Xbox coverage, but also the coverage of MS' competitors. Every article about Halo, that concern arises. I don't get that feeling when I read the newspaper.
 
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LDN
Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
Aside from the simple fact that he isn't really part of the industry, he never said what you are claiming he said(are you deliberately trying to mis-represent him, or is English not your first language?).
 

Lancehead

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Oct 27, 2011
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Uhhh... have you not been following what has been going on, he lost his job (his choice) and is less likely to find employment in this field. He also made some enemies in the industry.

Now he is saying "Oh I didn't mean it like that".
Even if he is telling the truth. This is still damage control.

People went nuts on Lauren as a result of his article, now he is writing a "hey take it easy guys I didn't mean it like that" article as damage control.
So, whose damage is he controlling? His damage or Lauren's?
 

Jackben

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Feb 4, 2012
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Even if he is telling the truth. This is still damage control.

People went nuts on Lauren as a result of his article, now he is writing a "hey take it easy guys I didn't mean it like that" article as damage control.
I don't think damage control means what you think it means. He's not doing damage control. He stands by what he said 100%. He is asking the idiots who have gone off the chain to personally insult and demean Wainwright to cease. She should absolutely be criticised but does not deserve the sexist stuff that is being said.

You really aren't very good at reading comprehension.
 

Fistwell

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Feb 22, 2012
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It's interesting. He could have come back and been bitter as all shit. Instead he comes across as conciliatory and level-headed. And that triggers, what? Multiple meltdowns? I don't get this.

So, the main villain is the bad part of PR people? Eidos again, like what happened with Jeff Gerstmann?
Personally I blame Kane and Lynch.
 

Kinyou

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Sep 12, 2009
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Even if he is telling the truth. This is still damage control.

People went nuts on Lauren as a result of his article, now he is writing a "hey take it easy guys I didn't mean it like that" article as damage control.
Now it feels like it's you're the one who hasn't been following this story.
 

Harlock

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Jul 6, 2011
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So, the main villain is the bad part of PR people? Eidos again, like what happened with Jeff Gerstmann?
 

iammeiam

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Even if he is telling the truth. This is still damage control.

People went nuts on Lauren as a result of his article, now he is writing a "hey take it easy guys I didn't mean it like that" article as damage control.
His point wasn't damage control, it was more "you people are obsessing over the wrong part of the article." Wainwright was an example of why people might believe PR compromised journalists. Her spectacular flame-out post article has handily shifted discussion from the larger PR/journalist issue to "Lauren Wainright is horribly corrupt." Which must make PR thrilled.

His followup is basically asking people to remember the rest of the article--Wainrigt wasn't the point of the initial piece, and the Internet mob going after her in torch-and-pitchfork mode is focusing on the wrong thing. He's not taking back what he said, he's reminding people there was more to the article than the Wainright section which is drowning out the important stuff
 

AkuMifune

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Dec 23, 2007
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So, the main villain is the bad part of PR people? Eidos again, like what happened with Jeff Gerstmann?
It will always be them. But that doesn't mean we should let the kids writing shill pieces for free candy off the hook. Letting themselves be used allows PR people the leverage they need to manipulate this industry.
 

Lime

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Apr 27, 2008
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So, the main villain is the bad part of PR people? Eidos again, like what happened with Jeff Gerstmann?
It could be argued that PR and publishers are the ones spinning the gullible and unreflective game journalists around their fingers. And as a person, one either goes along with the machine or you are cast out from events and/or fellow colleagues.
 
Feb 6, 2012
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Do you think Lauren acted entirely alone in pressuring Eurogamer to change my piece? Do you think she has that power? I don’t. Who do you think MIGHT have that power?
This is awesome. It's like we have no idea how deep this rabbit hole goes. Wainwright was just the beginning.

Next thing you know, the trail of the man pulling the strings... leads all the way back to GAF.
 
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