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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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G

Grecco

Member
Balotelli said:
What measures should we put in place to protect us though? We HAVE to come up with something that stops this. Perhaps a panel that gives a seal of approval to trusted sites who don't mix business with friendship. On this panel would be important key figures who aren't CORRUPT like Cliffy B and Shigaru Miyamotor and VINCENT INGENITO, you kjnow, REAL people we can trust.
Click to expand...

Only if the man myth and legend David Jaffe gets to oversee said pannel.
 
H

Hot Coldman

Banned
APZonerunner said:
Like I said, at a point the debate has to be had as to where and when we draw a line between a critic and a journalist. Most "games journalists" don't actually do any journalism; they're critics. Roger Ebert isn't a journalist, he's a critic. He even says so himself. There is a difference, and it's a line we should draw, as what's expected of the two is different, too.
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I think it's a line that's fairly easy to draw in a case-by-case manner, it's easy enough to figure out whether or not someone does any journalism, people are just lazy. Example: Patrick Klepek is clearly a gaming journalist. Jeff Gerstmann is clearly not.

This isn't even writers' faults, they know damn well what their jobs entail. It's on us- NeoGAF in particular is fucking awful when it comes to using calling anyone who writes about video games "game journalists".
 
S

Snapshot King

Member
Balotelli said:
What measures should we put in place to protect us though? We HAVE to come up with something that stops this. Perhaps a panel that gives a seal of approval to trusted sites who don't mix business with friendship. On this panel would be important key figures who aren't CORRUPT like Cliffy B and Shigaru Miyamotor and VINCENT INGENITO, you kjnow, REAL people we can trust.
Click to expand...

Have you been drinking?
 
L

Lothars

Member
Gannd said:
They aren't respected because they do not deserve our respect.
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I don't think it's far to say all game journalist, There are certainly some that don't deserve the respect but there are some that certainly do and keep proving themselves.
 
F

FStop7

Banned
RobotRocker said:
Under PCC code and libel law, Florence is entirely in the clear on this one. A public quote from twitter is subject to criticism. This even includes the questions of if she is fit to practice or not due to her public quotes. She hasn't got a leg to stand on. If she makes a public statement that is directly quoted. Then she puts it in the public domain and gives the people the right to analyse and criticise her statements. Politician's quotes on twitter are subject to the same and thanks to the Leveson inquiry, so have Journalists (ex-NOTW editor Neil Wallis in particular) and the right to ask is she fit to practice.

It's the threat and high cost of libel lawyers which is making Eurogamer group back down, however. And if you have been a fan of the esteemed organ, Private Eye, over it's lifetime. You know that the threat of a libel suit is used to stifle criticism as the high cost of fighting it is not worth it to a significant amount of publications (Usually accompanied by a letter from everyone's favourite libel solicitors, Carter-Fuck). Which leads to them backing down.I can't imagine Eurogamer group produces the amount of profit needed to fight such a case.

But then ideally Eurogamer should have cited the precedent of Arkell Vs Pressdram, 1971 in response to her because she doesn't have a leg to stand on but money is money.

"Cash Rules Everything Around Me" - Old Staten Island proverb
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The problem is that by not fighting it EG has lost a talented contributor as well as credibility. Are those not worth anything to them? Going forward, anything I see from EG will be viewed with a very doubtful/skeptical eye. I mean talk about editorial weakness. What else will/have they caved on?
 
K

Keasar

Member
shagg_187 said:
GAF and 4chan uniting? Oh my...
Click to expand...

By the powers combined!
OB-DF012_captpl_E_20090225180300.jpg
 
W

WrenchNinja

Member
JimFear said:
a lot of people here dont seem to like polygon but ...

if you go here https://www.theverge.com/ethics-statement you can read this
"Our writers will not accept gifts (including food and drinks) in excess of $50 in value.."

Compare with:

Trion were giving away PS3s to journalists at the GMAs. Not sure why that's a bad thing?
"Gaming journalism" still has some maturing to do.



well.....


edit : wrong sentence
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How is this commendable? They shouldn't be accepting gifts period.
 
D

Dennis

Banned
IdreamofHIME said:
So idiots are already attacking her for being female instead of a liar and idiot?

Looks like she's already won the battle.
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What?

Nice attempt at deflection.

In an internet of millions there is always going to be a few idiots but the vast majority of people who comment on this are not attacking her for being female. They are attacking her for being a paid shill.
 
AHA-Lambda

AHA-Lambda

Member
Robert Florence ‏@robertflorence

I'm sure you understand that, with it being amended, I have to step down from doing the columns. Thanks if you ever read any of them.
Click to expand...

Wow :(

This shit has just gotten out of hand now,a nd everything he said was true ;_;
 
Z

Zeliard

Member
Beckx said:
Kill Screen strongly backing Florence: "In any other field of journalism, the idea of a journalist being forced out because of a story about fully documented near collusion between journalists and PR would be absolutely anathema."

http://killscreendaily.com/headline...lorence-forced-leave-eurogamer-telling-truth/
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Eurogamer is in a fucked up situation.

I understand that libels in the UK in particular can be serious business; at the same time, it is also the editor's job to stand behind his writers through thick and thin, unless he is certain that his writer is in the wrong.

Doing otherwise leads to a situation where writers don't quite know if their editors have their backs if they decide to give their honest, candid views on a certain matter, with the constant threat looming that they'll be censored or worse. Total chilling effect at Eurogamer now.
 
C

cutmeamango

Banned
I've seen better drama at Mexican novelas.
I'll just leave my support to Geoff and whoever else makes money in this game journalism business.
 
C

cRIPticon

Member
Balotelli said:
What measures should we put in place to protect us though? We HAVE to come up with something that stops this. Perhaps a panel that gives a seal of approval to trusted sites who don't mix business with friendship. On this panel would be important key figures who aren't CORRUPT like Cliffy B and Shigaru Miyamotor and VINCENT INGENITO, you kjnow, REAL people we can trust.
Click to expand...

I bet it is Shigaru Miyamotor who is speeding all of that delicious politice to the backroom of the game journalists secret lairs. Kjnow, I bet that is exactly what is going on....
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
RedNumberFive said:
At our company, any gifts (pens, stress balls, hats, t-shirts) are technically property of the company. There is a small exception when dealing with customers from other cultures in which giving small gifts is customary. Bottom line, legitimate businesses take these things seriously.
Click to expand...

But specialist press works differently. There is a semi symbiotic relationship with the products they report on. Eg car magazine journalists are regularly flown out to exotic test drive locations by car manufacturers to review cars, and other subject areas will no doubt be similar
 
E

Effnine

Member
Grecco said:
Fun question how does Polygon pay for review copies if they dont take gifts of 50 or more?
Click to expand...

I don't know if I'd classify a review copy as a gift, but certainly some "game journalists" could be swayed by the fact that if they don't give a glowing review to said review copy game, they may not get others in the future.

The whole situation is backwards and really a reflection on the current state of the media as a whole. This isn't just isolated to the gaming industry.
 
U

ultron87

Member
Grecco said:
Fun question how does Polygon pay for review copies if they dont take gifts of 50 or more?
Click to expand...

Doesn't count as a gift.

Companies may send games or other products or samples to our editors in order for our staff to review such samples and determine whether we will provide a review of the product on Polygon. We do not accept any samples on any preconditions, such as, that we will agree to provide a review simply because the company sent us a sample. Please note that companies may provide these samples before the product is commercially available, in which case, we may agree to an embargo with the company or its PR firm. This means we agree not to publish the review or associated news until a given time.
Occasionally, we decide to review something which has not been provided to us by a company. In this case, an editor will either purchase the product for themselves (we buy a lot of games), or Vox Media will purchase the product for the team.
Click to expand...
 
G

Gomu Gomu

Member
This fucking industry man... What a sad day this has been for everyone involved. Robert Florence for not having a job anymore. Eurogamer for not having the confidence in their writer and not having his back. Wainwright for being called out on her public shamelessness and instead of owning up to it and maybe take a look at your work ethics, she threats to sue. For all the self proclaimed game 'journalists' who either defended her or the idea that there's actually no problem with having poor work ethics. For all the people who think this is to be expected and not do or say anything about it. For all the big game blogs, sites and notable game writers that didn't report or touch the story for whatever reason. And finally, for people attacking Wainwright for being female and not dealing intelligently with the situation.

A sad day indeed for this industry.


RedNumberFive said:
Some of Roger Ebert's personal ethics guidelines:

"No posing for photos! Never ask a movie star to pose with you for a picture . . . . . . You diminish yourself by asking for a snapshot."

"A trailer is not a movie."

"Accept no favors. For example, if some 'friends' throw you a birthday party at a Vegas joint they hope to fill with movie stars who are your 'friends,' say thanks, but no thanks. That crosses the line, even if the 'Britney Spears of Korea' truly is your close personal friend."

"Keep track of your praise. If you call a movie 'one of the greatest movies ever made,' you are honor-bound to include it in your annual Top Ten list. Likewise, for example, if you describe a film as 'the most unique movie-going experience of a generation,' and 'one of the best films of 2007, and of the last 25 years,' it's your duty to put it in the Top Ten of 2007."

I'd love to see game journos adhere to ANY of these.
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Reading this only makes me more upset towards this whole thing.
 
R

RedNumberFive

Banned
mrklaw said:
But specialist press works differently. There is a semi symbiotic relationship with the products they report on. Eg car magazine journalists are regularly flown out to exotic test drive locations by car manufacturers to review cars, and other subject areas will no doubt be similar
Click to expand...

And again "legitimate" press does not. That's the key word here. A publication like Consumer Reports does not engage in behavior like this. If you're fine with having your gaming press get free toys and all-expense paid trips, then that's with you. My standards and self respect aim a bit higher.
 
GlamFM

GlamFM

Banned
17 pages of hate are pretty hard to take.

You guys should relax a little - what´s happening here and over the web comes pretty close to a shitstorm. Not cool.

At least I got a good laugh out of this:


Lime said:
another one down for the count:

unavngivetrlsnm.png


good night, sweet prince.
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M

mik83kuu

Banned
EternalGamer said:
It's from the quicklook about Skylanders so there is very good reason for the Skylanders figures/portal to be there. Also Jeff bought all those figures and the game. They weren't even sent to him.
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I'm sure he knows that. I think he was asking if the similarities were intentional (posing of the toys, the drink, the facial expression) or just a coincidence.
 
J

JimFear

Banned
So...

What about Giantbomb.com having good friends at double fine and harmonix... They review the games from both company.

So i guess at the end of the day we can see them as PR puppets from these company?
 
E

EternalGamer

Banned
RedNumberFive said:
Some of Roger Ebert's personal ethics guidelines:

"No posing for photos! Never ask a movie star to pose with you for a picture . . . . . . You diminish yourself by asking for a snapshot."

"A trailer is not a movie."

"Accept no favors. For example, if some 'friends' throw you a birthday party at a Vegas joint they hope to fill with movie stars who are your 'friends,' say thanks, but no thanks. That crosses the line, even if the 'Britney Spears of Korea' truly is your close personal friend."

"Keep track of your praise. If you call a movie 'one of the greatest movies ever made,' you are honor-bound to include it in your annual Top Ten list. Likewise, for example, if you describe a film as 'the most unique movie-going experience of a generation,' and 'one of the best films of 2007, and of the last 25 years,' it's your duty to put it in the Top Ten of 2007."

I'd love to see game journos adhere to ANY of these.
Click to expand...

Ebert is from a different, more classy time with a higher standard of writing before the internet era deflated the idea of the professional media writer.

I doubt the dudes from Aint It Cool News have such standards. This isn't just a problem with videogames.
 
P

PrimeRib_

Member
mrklaw said:
But specialist press works differently. There is a semi symbiotic relationship with the products they report on. Eg car magazine journalists are regularly flown out to exotic test drive locations by car manufacturers to review cars, and other subject areas will no doubt be similar
Click to expand...

How is flying a writer/journalist/whatever the fuck you want to call them, across the country to review their product, not inherent of a compromise of objectivity? The point here is the intent of the company in question providing the review. If they have no objections to such actions in their ethics policies, than the general public ought to know that any said review should be read with speculation as objectivity is tainted.
 
V

Vamphuntr

Member
This thread became an entirely different thing since I read it this morning. Game critics don't seem to take attack on their credibility very well. The RPS piece was a nice read.

Can someone explain the Hellgate London thing?
 
LiquidMetal14

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
echothreealpha said:
Pretty sure the first thing the fine dappers at 4chan will take offense with isn't the attack campaign accusation; but instead the sites name spoken in the same sentence with NeoGAF.

Carry on my brothers from 4Chan, carry on.
Click to expand...

Let's just not associate the two. I consider 4chan a cesspool compared to GAF. I want to bathe myself at the mere though of such an alliance.
 
K

Keasar

Member
Been reading up now on this and wow, I am loosing faith by the minute, still clinging hard onto my RockPaperShotgun and Destructoid bookmarks as the last bastions of someplace to put my trust.

shagg_187 said:
LOL!! More like this:

http://i.minus.com/inx3LqLo0Ystn.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

Woah! Okay, that was way better.
Click to expand...
 
F

funkystudent

Member
Good read. I agree with the artical.


Oh and parts of the games press should stop getting so uptight about people rightfully calling out some of the lack of integrity with sections of the gaming press.

Every time something like this pops up and a random writer tries and stand up for there "craft" it just makes them look like a kid who is getting called out by mom and dad for doing something and poorly trying to deny it and shift blame.


Edit.

HOLY SHIT THE WRITER HAD TO STAND DOWN AFTER WRITING THIS?


For shame Eurogamer.... for shame.

Some Gerstmann-gate level bullshit right here.

Double edit.

Well I guess the UK's stupid liable laws might have played a part.


Poor guy. Poor form on eurogamers part. They should have just edited the story and called it a day.

I will support this writer in the future.

Fuck Eurogamer. And I dont know anything about Lauren Wainwright but if she actually pushed for legal action because of what that guy wrote then Jesus Christ. Get some ticker skin. Should have saw it as some constructive criticism and just move on.
 
DangerStepp

DangerStepp

Member
Lothars said:
I don't think it's far to say all game journalist, There are certainly some that don't deserve the respect but there are some that certainly do and keep proving themselves.
Click to expand...
It's not fair to say because all of them are NOT "game journalists".

There are different roles that makes up a gaming site: critic, news reporter, etc.

"Gaming journalist" is being used incorrectly way too often and gives wayyy too much credit to the wrong people.

Green Scar said:
I think it's a line that's fairly easy to draw in a case-by-case manner, it's easy enough to figure out whether or not someone does any journalism, people are just lazy. Example: Patrick Klepek is clearly a gaming journalist. Jeff Gerstmann is clearly not.

This isn't even writers' faults, they know damn well what their jobs entail. It's on us- NeoGAF in particular is fucking awful when it comes to using calling anyone who writes about video games "game journalists".
Click to expand...
THANK YOU!

It's up to us to differentiate and address these "video game enthusiast personalities" the appropriate title. As a community we've been doing it wrong for so long.

John Stossel is a journalist... Arthur Gies is not.
Hunter S. Thompson was/is a journalist... Jim Sterling is not.
 
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