http://www.libelreform.org/our-report
UK libel laws are absolutely part of the problem. The fact that you're guilty until proven innocent is outrageous and stifles free speech.
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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
- Thread starter papersleeves
- Start date
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http://www.libelreform.org/our-report
UK libel laws are absolutely part of the problem. The fact that you're guilty until proven innocent is outrageous and stifles free speech.
Mama Robotnik
Member
Reverend Stuart Campbell has a new summary of the saga so far. Its pretty explosive. Stuart was the one who revealed Wainwright's many reviews of Square Enix games, and in the distant past chronicled the Driv3rgate situation with mirrors to all the forum threads. He's done lots and lots of other stuff if you aren't familiar with his work.
The opening to his new article is cutting:
The opening to his new article is cutting:
ElRenoRaven
Member
You know this bullshit of well I'm close to both is just that. Sometimes you have to even tell your friends that what they're doing is fucked up. They may not like to hear that but if they are really a friend they'll respect you and still be your friend. If not then they weren't a real friend anyway. In that case good riddance to that parasite.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Mama Robotnik
Member
The more that is unearthed, the more Wainwright's corruption becomes a microcosm of the industry as a whole. This was linked to over at Rllmuk:
-Showered with gifts.
-Taken for superexpensive meal by developer.
-Drinking with them.
-PREVIEW COMING SOON
-Thinking about working for them.
Love the Alan Wake swag we got. A signed poster, 2 t-shirts and a Alan Wake flash light for all my …. flash light needs. Anyway, arrived back in the UK at around 9:30am and I am so hung over. The Remedy guys sure know how to treat us to a night out. We all were taken out for some Finish cuisine. I had Reindeer for the first time and it was delicious! I also had 3 large glasses of wine and some super cold vodka shots. Then, after the restaurant, I had some weird black vodka shots. Of course, we ended up in some ice bar later on and when I arrived back I pretty much stayed away until we had to leave to get our plane at 5:30 in the morning!
So keep your eye on Consolemonster.com for the preview which should hit mid Feb. I Met some fantastic people at the event. I usually do a lot of community events or smaller press events, so this time it was nice to hang out with some of the bigger sites/publications and chat to them. ♥ Neon – videogamer.com ♥ Tam - incgamers.com ♥ Nick – telegraph.co.uk ♥ to name a few!
I’ve found business cards from people at MTV, IGN and Remedy as well. So whole trip was a real experience for me and had got me thinking about a few things career wise as well.
-Showered with gifts.
-Taken for superexpensive meal by developer.
-Drinking with them.
-PREVIEW COMING SOON
-Thinking about working for them.
Apocryphon
Member
Games "journalists" pandering to games companies - for whatever reason - is obviously wrong. The only thing they should be concerning themselves with is their audience. Anybody accepting some kind of gratuity, no matter the intent of either party, is doing it wrong and can't expect to maintain credibility. If there's a conflict of interest as in the case of Wainwright - Squenix/Ubisoft, the article/review should be passed on to somebody else. What's going on obviously isn't anything new, but now would be a good time to address it. There's an obligation now for other sites like GB and RPS to cover this issue and for the wider community of game journalists to separate their personal and professional responsibilities. Not being able to comment just because you "know" the person and don't want to ruina friendship or whatever is horseshit.
What
I thought it was more along the lines of super injunctions being granted while the case was still being considered, not that you're 'guilty' until proven 'innocent' [legal phrasing]
Glad we broke our legal system away from the UK all those forevers ago
-Finish
Woz can speak for me:
There was no reason for Eurogamer to cave here anymore than if everyone involved had been based in the US.
SolarPowered
Member
Wow
That is news to me. Here I am having to pay for my Skullgirls body pillows(joking!).
Ain't nothin' to threaten legal action as a bluff. Chilling effect still exists. Speaking hypothetically of course, still don't know what was going on in this case specifically.
darkistheway
Member
I'm a little late to this story but wanted to throw my two cents out there.
I think this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of how this industry works. When developers are getting bonuses based on metacritic scores, derived from game review scores, reviewed by "journalists" friendly with publisher PR, it looks really bad.
There seems to be no integrity in any of the 'big' gaming websites.
To me, it is a house of cards just ready to collapse. This environment promotes safe, committee-driven, lowest common denominator game development, ie. the endless stream of sequels right now.
Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, maybe it will work out for everyone...
I think this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of how this industry works. When developers are getting bonuses based on metacritic scores, derived from game review scores, reviewed by "journalists" friendly with publisher PR, it looks really bad.
There seems to be no integrity in any of the 'big' gaming websites.
To me, it is a house of cards just ready to collapse. This environment promotes safe, committee-driven, lowest common denominator game development, ie. the endless stream of sequels right now.
Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, maybe it will work out for everyone...
SolidSnakex
Member
It really puts how Valve handles this into perspective
http://botherer.org/2012/10/24/games-journalists-and-the-perception-of-corruption/
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Microcosm of the industry? How about microcosm of today's society, certainly politics.
PR to journalists are the little-league version of lobbyist to politician.
This actually is a bit less black and white. Developers are not neccessarily the same people as publishers. Devs are generally not involved with the whole PR angle outside of supplying materials and or time to schmooze with them. As I wrote in an earlier post, from a developer's standpoint when dealing with journo's you always have a tiger by the tail. No matter how much you despise them or they rub you up the wrong way, you have to be nice to them or risk them hurting you out of spite. Its that simple. This is why its comparatively rare for a dev to defend themselves against the media in public forum, the risk of backlash makes it hardly worth the effort, and why when it does happen its usually by a developer with a strong emotional bond with the product in dispute.
By linking bonus payments to metacritic scores, the developer is even further disadvantaged against the media, whereas the publisher (who is the one handing out the $$$) simply has further control and a safety-net if the product doesn't review well.
PR to journalists are the little-league version of lobbyist to politician.
thelongdarkriversofhell said:
This actually is a bit less black and white. Developers are not neccessarily the same people as publishers. Devs are generally not involved with the whole PR angle outside of supplying materials and or time to schmooze with them. As I wrote in an earlier post, from a developer's standpoint when dealing with journo's you always have a tiger by the tail. No matter how much you despise them or they rub you up the wrong way, you have to be nice to them or risk them hurting you out of spite. Its that simple. This is why its comparatively rare for a dev to defend themselves against the media in public forum, the risk of backlash makes it hardly worth the effort, and why when it does happen its usually by a developer with a strong emotional bond with the product in dispute.
By linking bonus payments to metacritic scores, the developer is even further disadvantaged against the media, whereas the publisher (who is the one handing out the $$$) simply has further control and a safety-net if the product doesn't review well.
Just gotta say, I feel pretty damn sorry for what Wainright is going through. She's merely the randomly chosen person who could have been any number of other people caught up in this. I would much rather this story not be about her, because it truly isn't. It's about the 'professional' culture she inherited as a game journalist in this day and age.
ElectricBlue187
Member
Maybe there's no way she could've got into the industry without 'getting dirty' like everyone else, still though. You can't have it both ways. You can't do the dirt and expect that you'll look clean forever.
Especially not as terribly as she hid her tracks
ElRenoRaven
Member
I actually somewhat agree. She's certainly brought all of this upon herself but at the end of the day she's just one in an industry that certainly has very few with integrity.
TheMagician
Member
My problem with games journalism is that it is way too unprofessional. It's full of bias and agendas. Way more than any other medium is. One of the reasons is because a large majority of reviewers are fanboys.
It's rare you read a good article about the industry. Whether its about the evolution of the medium or even the state of gaming journalism itself. Everything printed is so safe, so constructed, that it just seems to have this hollow feel to it all.
I still cringe at Morgan Webb or whatever the hell she's called, critisising Mario Galaxy for being kiddy. Can you imagine a top film critic slating Toy Story for the same thing? Can you ****. The saddest thing is that people like her are put on a pedestal by sections of the media. Truly horrific.
Then you have the farce that was the IGN GTA Review and its apparent 'Oscar worthy' story. How can you even trust a writer after a comment like that?
The bottom line is that most writers in the medium have poor understanding of the medium, have too much personal bias, have average writing skills, and have absolutely no integrity.
It's rare you read a good article about the industry. Whether its about the evolution of the medium or even the state of gaming journalism itself. Everything printed is so safe, so constructed, that it just seems to have this hollow feel to it all.
I still cringe at Morgan Webb or whatever the hell she's called, critisising Mario Galaxy for being kiddy. Can you imagine a top film critic slating Toy Story for the same thing? Can you ****. The saddest thing is that people like her are put on a pedestal by sections of the media. Truly horrific.
Then you have the farce that was the IGN GTA Review and its apparent 'Oscar worthy' story. How can you even trust a writer after a comment like that?
The bottom line is that most writers in the medium have poor understanding of the medium, have too much personal bias, have average writing skills, and have absolutely no integrity.
That's the whole problem right there. Most game journalists aren't journalists, many of them aren't even interested in journalism at all - they are interested in games. They were gamers before, they still are gamers, they love to play new games before everyone else and cheer at E3 at the stupid stuff the console developers are showing. They are best friends with the PR guys because they hope one day they might work for a publisher too.
Don't think anything can ever change that.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
It isn't like she thinks she's "doing the dirt", which is probably an important, if not redeeming, factor. She's hopelessly oblivious. It says more about sad state of the industry and her employer's standards, really.
Mama Robotnik
Member
She's the aggressor that (either directly or through a consented advocate) legally bullied her way to ending Rab Florence's role at Eurogamer. For suspicions that, once investigated, have proved to be intensely accurate. She, a despicably corrupt journalist, has suspended the income of a legitimate one for telling the truth.
She has misled her readers repeatedly by advocating that they purchase games made by her Square Enix paymasters. She is the antithesis of journalism.
The moment she threatened Eurogamer with a libel suit she invited this scrutiny, and deserves little sympathy.
funkystudent
Member
Well no one from the UK is going to write about it.
The gaming media here is pretty small and everyone writes for everyone at some point so they wont want to poison there watering hole by doing actually journalism and reporting on a serious problem with there own part of the industry.
Hopefully some US people write something when the wake up but who knows. I hope GinatBomb does something over the weekend. Thats the only major site I can see doing anything IF they even do anything.
Boy what I would give to be in this ladies next media law / ethics class.
Its tipical for writers with a past background that doesnt involve gaming to come in and embarass the rest of them with their quality writing and "ethics". Kinda embarrasing how this has being ignored by some american sites, you would think by their silence that there are also libel laws on the states.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
Stop being friends. Start being professional.
Hero of Canton
Member
It's partly that, but also because I don't think I can really add anything to the conversation, not least because I don't have many dealings with PRs in comparison with other writers. I'm not asking Rab personally to move on, it was more out of exasperation at seeing the same things over and over again in my Twitter feed. Also note that I'm saying lessons *should* and *will* be learned from all this.
It's nothing to do with being a pussy, or whatever. I don't call myself a journalist, I'm a games critic. My job is to write about games, which I believe is my strength. The politics of all this is complicated, and something I'm not familiar enough with to write about in any meaningful way. I'll write about the subject if and when I can bring something worthwhile to the table. But I think other people are in a better position to do that. Indeed, some already have.
Mister0079
Member
Why would you feel sorry for someone who threatened to sue and got someone fired?
D
Deleted member 53899
Unconfirmed Member
I completely agree. She fucked up, but the story here should be about the quality and ethics of game reviewing/writing, and not focusing on her. We'll just end up with news stories about internet bullying instead of the real issues.
Diablohead
Member
I feel sorry for her to the extent that she seems to have been mentored into the industry by a PR person rather than by a seasoned journalist, and the kind of backscratching that follows is probably something she feels is necessary to advance herself. She fell under the sphere of influence of publishers/PR people rather than someone senior in the profession she was aspiring to.
I feel sorry for the industry if that is actually the case though - if even the seasoned people backscratch their way through things too.
If not, though, if there is 'a better way' of dealing with PR etc. and still coming away with stories and access, then the media outlets need to step in and mentor new writers and not let them fall into a feeling of debt with publishers for career advancement. I think they're as responsible if a newer generation of writers is going to pot.
I feel sorry for the industry if that is actually the case though - if even the seasoned people backscratch their way through things too.
If not, though, if there is 'a better way' of dealing with PR etc. and still coming away with stories and access, then the media outlets need to step in and mentor new writers and not let them fall into a feeling of debt with publishers for career advancement. I think they're as responsible if a newer generation of writers is going to pot.
reptilescorpio
Member
Would you want to be comfortable calling yourself a journalist at some point though? It seems like it would strengthen the integrity of the industry if more people involved could consider themselves journalists rather than just fans.
Thing is, nobody even knows if that's the case. We're imagining a scenario in our own minds where that happened. For all we know, it could have been her boss or her boyfriend or her mother or some misguided friend who got that ball rolling. We simply do not know. And since this is all about 'journalistic integrity' to begin with, shouldn't we at least practice what we're preaching and be, i dunno, investigative rather than assuming shit?
She mentioned libel in a Twitter post.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
That's what the thread is about (I hope). People are just digging into Wainwright cause she is the reason one guy lost his job by threatening and stating that he doesn't have enough facts.
Facts are here, all over this thread. It's a wake-up call for all. All are paying attention and it's how it should be.
In the end, we are all a product for the companies and in return they want us to like their products. We have community managers who do their best to please the community by providing images, videos, beta keys, insider info and what not. In return, they expect us to be nice enough to buy their game whether it's good or not and expect to enjoy it because they did us a favor pleasing us. Same goes for bloggers, but it's more broader here cause a lot of their opinion is plastered all over the boxart, ads and more. In short, Companies are pampering the bloggers in return of advertisement spot for 9.5/10 reviews. "Exclusive" reviews are just there to be the first ones to lick the balls. We've seen previously what happens when the reviews are not what the companies expect i.e. Gamespot.
I know it will never happen because these bloggers think they're journalists and they're abide by the code of journalism where you can't rat your own out, but the fact of the matter is everyone is doing it. Everyone is as guilty of this shit. They all know that companies cut you off from PR list if you fuck up, they cut you up from receiving review copies or all the "swag". In order to not be blacklisted, they have to cheer at E3 like they're watching Super Bowl and not treat it like a press event.
It's a shitty and shady business, and if these reviewers and previewers want to be taken seriously, they have to take this business seriously. I've stopped reading reviews and stick to GAF impressions cause they are most insightful and straight to the point without any filler words. I know quite a few people here to know what everyone's taste is and if it matches mine or not, and I enjoy it that way.
darkistheway
Member
What I would like to see is something like the movie industry. Except in rare cases, the studios don't really care what the professional movie reviewers say. They just market the product and let the chips fall where they may.
Why would you feel sorry for her? The original comment about her was not particularly inflammatory. Her reaction to the article is what got it all truly started. Of course, she doesn't deserve personal insults but she does deserve all the scrutiny. Hopefully, this keeps going beyond her and some change comes of it.
Well she apparently boasted on her Twitter, around the time of the article being edited, about a media law course she took being "useful". I can't check as she's protected her tweets, but if she did indeed tweet that, then it looks very likely she at least had a part in the action.
we.are.the.armada
Member
The king. The king?
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
It's a "The Wire" quote.
Hero of Canton
Member
Well, here's the thing: I am a fan of games, and so is everyone who writes about them. No one would get into the industry if they weren't. The hours are long, the pay is poor, the online abuse is frequent and sometimes depressing...I'm not complaining, because hey, I get to write about something I'm passionate about for a living - but it's not something you get into if you're not a fan to begin with.
That isn't to say I don't write honestly and don't have integrity. Part of the problem is that everyone has different interpretations of the word 'journalist', and I'm uncomfortable with using the term to describe myself because a lot of people assume it's preceded with an unspoken 'investigative'. I research, I interview, I prepare for anything I write, of course. But my strengths are as a reviewer and feature writer. I'll criticise developers and games where it's necessary to do so. Otherwise my role is to write pieces about games for readers who hopefully find my work informative and entertaining.
I do the same job as someone who writes about films or about music. Whether that's journalism or just criticism or whatever you want to call it is for you to decide. I take my work seriously, but I don't take myself seriously. I write about a fun medium where sometimes I recommend games and sometimes I don't, and sometimes I look a little deeper at how games work and their position in the world and talk about them. That's it. I don't think I'm curing cancer or anything like that. I write about things that people play to have fun.
It might seem you are talking about gamer journalist on that one. And for a person that cant really add to the conversation you really have chimed in since yesterday:Chris Chilling said:
Chris Chilling ‏@schillingc
Remember when we used to write about the games? That was fun, wasn't it?
Chris Chilling ‏@schillingc
@RichStanton I don't think it's so much the quotes as the implications of corruption. But yeah, slippery slope.
Chris Chilling ‏@schillingc
@stillgray The writer wasn't fired - he opted to leave his position as columnist.
Chris Chilling ‏@schillingc
@GasheadAu I just think this has ended up doing more harm than good, regardless of the intentions of the original piece.
Chris Chilling ‏@schillingc
@stepickford @GasheadAu There were good points in Rob's piece, but it fell apart because of a lack of facts. It's based on assumptions.
POWERSPHERE
Banned
Evilore should invest in a journalistic side to GAF, and pay actual writers to get into this kind of shit, it'd be interesting.
As for reviewers being journalists, it's such a daft concept. Film and music reviewers aren't called journalists, but they're not as insecure as gamers.
As for reviewers being journalists, it's such a daft concept. Film and music reviewers aren't called journalists, but they're not as insecure as gamers.
reptilescorpio
Member
Ah that makes sense, you consider your strengths to outweigh the conventions of what people consider a journalist. Thanks for clearing it up as I was getting a different reading from the first post. What you describe is what I would ideally wish for anyone in the medium parting with information to me to go into.
In the end, it's mostly the fault of the journalist, not the PR/publisher(s).
I'm a
for an European gaming website (which I shall not name for obvious reasons). I've had my fair share of PR events, previews and such. During one of the previews, we dined at an expensive restaurant with the PR guy from a publisher I will not name (again, for obvious reasons).
It's fun and all, but at the end of the day, I just care about the game and I write my opinion about that game. Sure, dining at a fancy restaurant is fun and all, but it shouldn't cloud your judgement. If they want to give me free food, that's their decision. It's not hard to still write an unbiased (although every review is subjective because of OPINIONS) article after getting all sorts of things from them.
TL;DR: accepting PF gifts etc doesn't make you corrupt, it just depends on the integrity of the 'journalist'
I'm a
VIDYA GAME JOURNALIST
It's fun and all, but at the end of the day, I just care about the game and I write my opinion about that game. Sure, dining at a fancy restaurant is fun and all, but it shouldn't cloud your judgement. If they want to give me free food, that's their decision. It's not hard to still write an unbiased (although every review is subjective because of OPINIONS) article after getting all sorts of things from them.
TL;DR: accepting PF gifts etc doesn't make you corrupt, it just depends on the integrity of the 'journalist'
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