And this pretty much confirms that threats were made. Eurogamer is my favourite site and one of the things that this all case did was cement even more my trust in them.
Nah, it's cool, he's from the Guardian.
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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
- Thread starter papersleeves
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Quoting for the new page.
wasn't there a story recently like this where the people got ditched at the airport for not playing ball?
edit: nevermind, that was a Samsung thing.
it was talked about in the giant bomb thread last week but sa gaming is very megathread focused and there's no games journalism one so no dice
rllmuk and grcade (two decent sized uk gaming forums) are still talking about it a lot. idk about other places, i guess reddit were at one point from what people said here but i try to avoid that site.
EternalGamer
Banned
You should have posted that video footage. And thanks for speaking up about all of this, including the news coverage/preview stuff.
Here is one of the problems we face as readers. We will be told by the people running these sites that this is just how things are done. So it is good to have people that are in the business or have been in the business to argue alongside us that it doesn't have to be.
I do not want to go to read gaming news websites to be advertised to. At the very least attempt to put some critical distance between yourself and the press release. Comment on it, make it clear that this is a thing that PR sent you. Criticize, agree with it, reference other things. Think about whether or not it is actually a worthwhile thing or just covert free advertising.
The Wizard
Member
Buy himself another gaming website he can exploit by selling press kits for huge sums on ebay?
Hardcore Gamer Wikipedia page said:
Thanks for your story. How common do you think this story is? I wonder how many people went to that event and did their "job."
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Yeah, I'm done. Doritos, Cheetos, Coke and some Halo 4 awaits. If I delve in this thread for too long, my brain will fry.
Can't tell jokes from reality anymore. Good show, GAF. This was the most entertaining thread in weeks. Time to ignore them for a while.
EternalGamer
Banned
Just because I want to counter the idea that all of this is a bunch of pie in the sky idealism, I want to note that I have learned there are people here who strive to do the exact things we all want and we should recognize them.
The Giant Bomb guys, for example, aren't perfect, but they look better and better. They don't post shit like that Pizza Hut Halo thing as news. They don't do crass infomercials. They de-emphasize trailers, and previews and focus on editorial content. They openly agreed with Rab about how disgusting the original actions were and Jeff spent a lot of time elaborating on their editorial policies about not allowing people to write for them that do mock reviews or state they have aspirations to enter game design. He even answered the criticism about the Nintendo 3DS video in a very reasonable manner. Good on them.
In hindsight, I also was reminded via this thread of just how much I miss GFW radio. Because those guys were always straight up and they talked about the exact stuff this thread has been about and openly criticized it regularly. We miss you guys. You were awesome.
Kotaku has a lot of the problems we have been talking about, but at least several of their editors have been willing to participate in this conversation rather than shut it down. They even changed their mind about running a story about the events and one of their editors said he will think about unboxing videos differently now. I still have a good deal of problems with them, but at least currently they seem to be listening, even when some of the criticism directed at them has been vitriolic. They deserve credit for that if nothing else.
Polygon and Shacknews are two sites that, in contradistinction, have drastically lost credibility to me so far. Polygon's quiteness on the subject itself and their censoring of the conversation on their own site says a lot about how they intend to approach things and about how they aren't really willing to question their policies. Weekend Confirmed's dismissal of the story alond with Andrea's shameful relationship with EA's monetarily rewarding Machinima content providers for videos posted about Need for Speed means they have severely lost credibility in my eyes.
It's not all good and it's not all bad. No person or no website gets a pass but these are just some of my thoughts thus far.
The Giant Bomb guys, for example, aren't perfect, but they look better and better. They don't post shit like that Pizza Hut Halo thing as news. They don't do crass infomercials. They de-emphasize trailers, and previews and focus on editorial content. They openly agreed with Rab about how disgusting the original actions were and Jeff spent a lot of time elaborating on their editorial policies about not allowing people to write for them that do mock reviews or state they have aspirations to enter game design. He even answered the criticism about the Nintendo 3DS video in a very reasonable manner. Good on them.
In hindsight, I also was reminded via this thread of just how much I miss GFW radio. Because those guys were always straight up and they talked about the exact stuff this thread has been about and openly criticized it regularly. We miss you guys. You were awesome.
Kotaku has a lot of the problems we have been talking about, but at least several of their editors have been willing to participate in this conversation rather than shut it down. They even changed their mind about running a story about the events and one of their editors said he will think about unboxing videos differently now. I still have a good deal of problems with them, but at least currently they seem to be listening, even when some of the criticism directed at them has been vitriolic. They deserve credit for that if nothing else.
Polygon and Shacknews are two sites that, in contradistinction, have drastically lost credibility to me so far. Polygon's quiteness on the subject itself and their censoring of the conversation on their own site says a lot about how they intend to approach things and about how they aren't really willing to question their policies. Weekend Confirmed's dismissal of the story alond with Andrea's shameful relationship with EA's monetarily rewarding Machinima content providers for videos posted about Need for Speed means they have severely lost credibility in my eyes.
It's not all good and it's not all bad. No person or no website gets a pass but these are just some of my thoughts thus far.
EternalGamer
Banned
Ok, again credit where it is due. A win. Good on them. I'll reward them by continuing to check their site.
One rubber tree at a time, guys.
Something else to note, for whatever it's worth: Schreirer also said he'll review how he approaches preview coverage.
Brilliant post by Spicer, lots of eyes opened with the stuff in this thread from Rabs spark.
I really hope we don't have goldfish memories with this stuff an raise a stink and call people out in future like with Polygon etc.
I honestly think this is the tipping point now and momentum from the enthusiast community needs to be remain.
I really hope we don't have goldfish memories with this stuff an raise a stink and call people out in future like with Polygon etc.
I honestly think this is the tipping point now and momentum from the enthusiast community needs to be remain.
Nizz
Member
It sure has!
Thanks for sharing. That story is just wow.
By the way, you should have been on the latest weekend confirmed. Maybe try to be on the next episode?
A win? This is just damage control. Just cause you stop digging a hole doesn't mean you end up higher than where you started.
But don't most major websites rely frequently on freelance work? Do those boundaries exist for that work, as well? Honest question.
Holy crap. Just got in from work and I'm digesting the last 12 or so hours of events. Weekend Confirmed's Andrea Rene, Hardcore Gamer and Polygon. Unbelievable.
A few people (Jason, Jeff, Stephen, perhaps others) wanted it to be known that not -everyone- is dirty, and of course I've no doubt that's true. To the people who have made an effort to conduct themselves with integrity and decency whilst doing their jobs; thanks. Seriously. If you're reading this and you know you're one of those people, thank you. If you've resisted pressures it probably wasn't easy to do when when you've seen others accept with glee. I wouldn't ever try speak on behalf of NeoGaf, we're all individuals, but I'm pretty sure they'd all share my sentiments.
To the blaggers, the liggers, the freeloaders, the chancers and the bullshitters; fuck you. Fuck you partly because.. well, because of you being all those things, and partly because you're making the good people in your profession look bad. I hope you're squirming right now, and I hope the light shines your way soon. It more than likely will.
A few people (Jason, Jeff, Stephen, perhaps others) wanted it to be known that not -everyone- is dirty, and of course I've no doubt that's true. To the people who have made an effort to conduct themselves with integrity and decency whilst doing their jobs; thanks. Seriously. If you're reading this and you know you're one of those people, thank you. If you've resisted pressures it probably wasn't easy to do when when you've seen others accept with glee. I wouldn't ever try speak on behalf of NeoGaf, we're all individuals, but I'm pretty sure they'd all share my sentiments.
To the blaggers, the liggers, the freeloaders, the chancers and the bullshitters; fuck you. Fuck you partly because.. well, because of you being all those things, and partly because you're making the good people in your profession look bad. I hope you're squirming right now, and I hope the light shines your way soon. It more than likely will.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
I think people could get the first part done. People are very passionate about this. (Just look at the thread.) And consider how much work some folks are willing to put into OTs for even niche games. I think the energy for this exists.
Why not give it a crack?
Do you still have the video?
So what is it about the Polygon piece that was off limits? Was it the close resemblance to the press release, or was it simply the cross-promotion?
If the former, I understand and agree. If the latter, we have a lot more work to do. How far do we go? A quick peek at another major site like Joystiq shows a good handful of cross-promotional "news" items. They do, however, include the full press release at the bottom of their stories. Is this the kind of disclosure and transparency we're looking for? Or do we want sites to think more carefully about posting this "news" in the first place?
Again, honest questions. My hope is that journalists themselves figure this out in a manner that we readers feel good about. I hope they're all thinking more carefully about this going forward.
If the former, I understand and agree. If the latter, we have a lot more work to do. How far do we go? A quick peek at another major site like Joystiq shows a good handful of cross-promotional "news" items. They do, however, include the full press release at the bottom of their stories. Is this the kind of disclosure and transparency we're looking for? Or do we want sites to think more carefully about posting this "news" in the first place?
Again, honest questions. My hope is that journalists themselves figure this out in a manner that we readers feel good about. I hope they're all thinking more carefully about this going forward.
EternalGamer
Banned
Garnet Lee, host of Weekend Confirmed, former EGM and 1up editor, posted in the Official WC Thread here on GAF and had this to say:
Ok, I abstained from bolding any of this, but I think it deserves to be talked about in this thread since this is where it all started.
Garnett's initial claim that this is a "witch hunt" and asking if it "really needs to be said" that critics needs to hold themselves to a high standard bothers me because it automatically sounds to me like he thinks the entire idea of scrutinizing game media coverage isn't justified because they can self police. I think if he simply bothered to look at all the very well written posts by former and current journalist linked to in this thread's OP, he would see that this is not the case. Again, these are industry insiders, former and current, making many of these arguments.
Second, the fact that he would apologize for those paid for videos hosted by Machinima by implying that the footage speaks for itself and that people could just turn down the sound if they wanted to is a pretty amazing piece of self rationalization. I honestly don't think he would ever come to that kind of conclusion if he didn't have a friend directly involved in it. At least, I hope he wouldn't.
But it seems to clear to me that this is Garnett's stance on the matter. I followed him since EGM, listened to every 1up Yours ever made, and every episode of Weekend Confirmed to date. I think I am done with this show now though. There are plenty of good games media personalities that have clearly demonstrates they ARE willing to hold themselves to a higher standard and that they ARE willing to take a hard look at how they do business. This thread had many, many examples of game writers demonstrating this. I side with them. I choose to support their content.
Garnett Lee said:
Garnett Lee said:
Ok, I abstained from bolding any of this, but I think it deserves to be talked about in this thread since this is where it all started.
Garnett's initial claim that this is a "witch hunt" and asking if it "really needs to be said" that critics needs to hold themselves to a high standard bothers me because it automatically sounds to me like he thinks the entire idea of scrutinizing game media coverage isn't justified because they can self police. I think if he simply bothered to look at all the very well written posts by former and current journalist linked to in this thread's OP, he would see that this is not the case. Again, these are industry insiders, former and current, making many of these arguments.
Second, the fact that he would apologize for those paid for videos hosted by Machinima by implying that the footage speaks for itself and that people could just turn down the sound if they wanted to is a pretty amazing piece of self rationalization. I honestly don't think he would ever come to that kind of conclusion if he didn't have a friend directly involved in it. At least, I hope he wouldn't.
But it seems to clear to me that this is Garnett's stance on the matter. I followed him since EGM, listened to every 1up Yours ever made, and every episode of Weekend Confirmed to date. I think I am done with this show now though. There are plenty of good games media personalities that have clearly demonstrates they ARE willing to hold themselves to a higher standard and that they ARE willing to take a hard look at how they do business. This thread had many, many examples of game writers demonstrating this. I side with them. I choose to support their content.
Foxtastical
Member
For real.
Agent Unknown
Member
That crass "I only own three" tweet from Steve Boxer of the Guardian begging for a PS3 is mighty brazen.
Good question! I don't know.
i highly recommend listening to that gfw gerstmann saga episode again for people who haven't (it's linked in ledsen's meticulously detailed summaries). the issues are so similar and they have a lot of great insights.
but yeah listening to it again combined with shawn and jeff's posts here made its absence felt so painfully.
but yeah listening to it again combined with shawn and jeff's posts here made its absence felt so painfully.
DangerStepp
Member
I'm all for this stuff in general but posting what someone says in one thread into another thread tends to take things out of context and is also redundant.
In particular I don't think Garnett was dismissing or apologizing for what Machinima does, just working out loud what it does.
But that conversation is going on right now in that thread with full context, it seems a bit pointless and unfair to try to transport it to here sans context.
In particular I don't think Garnett was dismissing or apologizing for what Machinima does, just working out loud what it does.
But that conversation is going on right now in that thread with full context, it seems a bit pointless and unfair to try to transport it to here sans context.
EternalGamer
Banned
No that conversation started here. That thread is the one out of context. In fact, the conversation over there started because someone linked to MY POST in this thread, so please do not make it seem like I am trying to take anything out of context. I am rather re-inserting it back where the conversation started in order to contribute to it. Contary to what Garnett says, this thread has been extremely productive both for the audience and for those in the gaming media.
As for your second point, he literally said that if you don't want to hear the paid for spin in those videos you can always turn the sound down. I don't even know how you become a more blatant apologist than that. That's absolutely crazy. Maybe you are right about the idea that he is still thinking things through, though. Here's hoping.
There's been a consistent pattern among many journalists over the past few days: bitter denial changes to defensiveness changes to reluctant acknowledgment changes to "you might be right. here's what I'm going to do." He's somewhere around step 1 or 2.
It really sucks that he thinks of this as a "witch hunt." He's the one in a position of authority. It's his job to be held accountable by his readers/listeners for his words. We may not have "elected" him, but we do choose whether or not to listen to/read his work. A real "witch hunt" would be if he used his media position to leverage unsubstantiated attacks on others. This isn't a witch hunt.
GillianSeed79
Member
Power went out due to Hurricane Sandy last night, so I've missed the last 12 hours of discussion or so. One thing I haven't done in this thread that I've been meaning to do is give credit to Giant Bomb for being transparent about a lot these issues we are talking about. I kind of over reacted about the ACIII flag, so if I came off as a dick to Jeff or Ryan I apologize. I specifically remember how Jeff talked about how much of a waste of time the Capcom Captivate event was and they have always done a good job about being trasnparent about a lot of this stuff.
ThatsMytrunks
Member
More Fun To Compute
Member
Kotaku look great compared to Machinima. :/
Why you associating with them Garnett?
Why you associating with them Garnett?
Zeouterlimits
Member
Thanks for the post Christian, very illuminating, and perhaps more important to me, seemed honest.
Tallshortman
Member
Wow this shit blew up, just been reading through some of the more notable personalities' posts about this. Well I'm glad something happened. It certainly bit gamestop in the ass during their whole controversy. Hopefully this puts more pressure on the gaming press to be less led by the leash by companies who use them as PR dolls.
I don't necessarily have a problem with people selling out (PR is a job after all) if they actually admit they're not trying to be unbiased.
I don't necessarily have a problem with people selling out (PR is a job after all) if they actually admit they're not trying to be unbiased.
bigdaddygamebot
Member
Agreed.
EternalGamer
Banned
They call themselves a "next generation video entertainment network" on their about page (whatever that means) with both editorial and user generated content.
I only knew about it through Weekend Confirmed, to be honest, but I sure as heck didn't know that the site Andrea worked for was responsible for hooking up its "content creators" (note the ambiguous phrasing) with money from publishers for posting videos about their games. That is a blatant conflict of interest in my opinion. You are getting paid by a game designer to talk about their game. There is no grey area there.
And they are big. They have 138 million subscribers and 39.9 billion video views according to their own stats.
I don't actually know what Andrea's role is at Machinima. I searched their site. It seems clear she isn't on the "editorial" staff and by her own blog and description I can only assume that she is one of the "content creators." Here is what Andrea said about it on her Twitter feed:
She or anyone else is free to come here and correct this but it seems to me that she is hiding behind the idea that the videos were not "reviews."
Regardless I find the whole idea of of publishers paying these "content creators" disgusting.
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
I don't know if this has been posted, but Rock Paper Shotgun comment on the story.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/30/rpss-position-on-the-eurogamerflorence-debacle/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/30/rpss-position-on-the-eurogamerflorence-debacle/
grimshawish
Banned
Heh, they had a 'via' before but no source.
They shouldn't take this as a witch hunt - just a lesson.
Haha that sounds really up its own arse. Scanning through their website I see machinima (would be weird if they didn't have any) and live action stuff. Okay far as I can see it's an entertainment group with a focus around video games kinda? Arby 'n' the Chief was great when it wasn't picked up by Machinima, wonder if it's still any good.
Either way, I still don't see how they can be considered a reviews outfit.
Funny enough, I know a guy who got flown out to San Fran for an AC3 preview session and recently bitched about it online because they didn't send him a review copy.
EternalGamer
Banned
Their editors post reviews, but she seems to be part of a "network" not the editorial staff at Machinima. I frankly don't care what you call it. Anyone that is paid by a company to post videos, you are compromised, end of story. Especially if you don't make it clear to me that you are being paid by the company. It does not matter whether or not you call it a "review." That is a bullshit semantic distinction to hide behind.
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