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(Gamingfront) PS4 Plan: Twice the power of PS3 @ much lower cost, FEWER SPEs?

AKS

Member
Sep 25, 2007
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I'd prefer that they wait until the power upgrade is more substantial. The games that are coming out this year look far better than what we've seen last year. If developers hit a plateau, then it might be time to plan on releasing a new platform (I realize that it takes years to develop hardware; I am saying it won't be necessary to release new hardware until well after 2011). Developers just recently seem to have to really figured out how to use the hardware (even EA and Ubi are making awesome PS3 games now; rewind a year or two and recall the 30 fps sports games and The Orange Box), so let them have a few years to use the skills that they've developed. The only reason I'd support upgrading so soon would be if the upgrade made development significantly easier, such solving the PS3's memory concerns, but I'd think a massive RAM upgrade would be very pricey.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,479
11,577
2,110
gofreak said:
I'm not gonna read that whole babelfished article, but is this the same watch impress article from a while back?

I thought he speculated therein that Sony might go with a 8-12 SPE setup? Where did fewer SPEs come from?

I'm also not sure if it mentioned anything about the GPU (or RAM?). Which would obviously have a big say in how powerful the system is overall. A modestly more powerful CPU would not be very surprising though..if it was even twice as powerful I'd be mildly surprised. I just have a feeling they're only going to slightly increase CPU power, but put in a more contemporary GPU (for 2011/2012). It seems to me that the way things are going, most developers don't seem to know what to use increasing CPU power for asides from improving graphics..so...might as well just go with a 'small' CPU, 'big' GPU? Maybe I'll be surprised in the latter half of this generation, but that seems to be how more sophisticated developers are soaking up Cell's power. A 2011/2012 GPU could also be easily repurposed toward other processing tasks (like physics), if a developer actually needed significantly more power for things other than graphics.

Gofreak, with a GT200 class GPU or better, more RAM on both sides, and a fully working link between the two (that is CELL being able to read and write from VRAM at the same high speed the GPU can read from main RAM) even the current CELL CPU could do so much more without changing a single thing about it :p.

I am inclined to the idea of having 2 PPE's v2, but each PPE v2 would have SMT stripped off (that would lower the cost of having two PPE's on the chip) and they would have 1 MB of L2 cache but shared between the two cores.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
18,479
11,577
2,110
gofreak said:
Nein, danke. Unless they were heavily modified CBEs, which I think is unlikely if Sony wants to save on R&D.

Put in a reasonably power Cell CPU and a beefy nVidia GPU, and as much ram and bandwidth as can be afforded. $299 max. Make it break even or close to break-even from day one (not good for me as a consumer, but that's probably what sony will be targetting).

That's only considering the box though. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to the whole setup than the core box, which would also require allowance in their budget.

How would you like a OpenCL/CUDA enable nVIDIA GPU coupled with OpenCL/CUDA support for CELL and that exposed to homebrew programmers under Linux (no OpenGL driver though... nothing that would allow you to run PS4 games directly... oh and OpenCL would not eb used by PS4 game programmers anyways)?

PS4 Linux + CPU&GPU accelerated OpenCL support ;).

Sure, you'd have to deploy your own renderer, but you would have SO MUCH HW to throw at it :D.
 

Kazuma Kiryu

Member
Apr 19, 2008
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well at least next time the cell will have all 8 spe's, i mean they can sort out those yield issues by then right? -_-
that would mean one more spe available to developers, which is never a bad thing
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
43,345
2
1,645
Pana - I'd love a common execution environment across both chips. Write once, run anywhere. And yes, one that's 'secure' and opens both chips to hobbyists would be nice..

You don't necessarily need homogenous hardware to do that, but I wonder if anyone will put two identical chips into their next system instead of distinct gpu and cpu. Unifying the execution environment would bring the same benefits without sacrificing chip specialisation though.
 

Haunted

Member
Nov 16, 2006
78,223
18
965
The two PS3s duct-taped together comment has been made already, I assume?

Excellent.


But yeah, old article and Sony going for a similar power increase from PS3 to PS4 as Nintendo did from CG to Wii is not all that surprising anyway. They certainly fucked devs with the hard-to-program for PS3, trying to get them to throw away the work that's went into programming for PS3 this gen would be suicide and garner them the finger from many devs, most likely. :lol
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
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peter.metaclassofnil.com
I really doubt that, even should Sony go with a smaller performance increase, it would be in any way comparable to the GC->Wii travesty. For one thing, I'm certain that they would use a somewhat current GPU, and not overclock the same 5 year old model by 50%. And that alone would significantly increase its capabilities and programmability.

@Pana:
OpenCL on both Cellv2 and the GPU is an interesting idea, and it turns up some pretty awesome things you could do (eg. dynamic load balancing between cpu and gpu for some workloads).
 

Haunted

Member
Nov 16, 2006
78,223
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Durante said:
I really doubt that, even should Sony go with a smaller performance increase, it would be in any way comparable to the GC->Wii travesty. For one thing, I'm certain that they would use a somewhat current GPU, and not overclock the same 5 year old model by 50%. And that alone would significantly increase its capabilities and programmability.
So the twice the power comment in the OP is debunked?

Someone needs to update this shit for me.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
43,345
2
1,645
Haunted said:
So the twice the power comment in the OP is debunked?

Someone needs to update this shit for me.

I don't really know where twice the power, or fewer SPEs, is coming from in the OP.

If it's the same old article as before, it's speculation about Sony using a Cell design in PS4 that may be only modestly more powerful than PS3's.

As I said, if that was the case, that covers one component that contributes toward 'overall' power..we wouldn't be able to say how it compares to PS3 overall without knowing what the GPU looked like, the memory set up, the bandwidth between chips and to memory etc.

Again, it's also just speculation aswell..though fairly plausible, IMO.
 

DrXym

Member
Feb 10, 2007
2,601
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885
I don't know why they'd want less SPEs. The PS3 demonstrates how mind boggingly powerful they can be.
 

Haunted

Member
Nov 16, 2006
78,223
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gofreak said:
I don't really know where twice the power, or fewer SPEs, is coming from in the OP.

If it's the same old article as before, it's speculation about Sony using a Cell design in PS4 that may be only modestly more powerful than PS3's.

As I said, if that was the case, that covers one component that contributes toward 'overall' power..we wouldn't be able to say how it compares to PS3 overall without knowing what the GPU looked like, the memory set up, the bandwidth between chips and to memory etc.

Again, it's also just speculation aswell..though fairly plausible, IMO.
Fair enough. Guess we'll have to wait for another leak, or an official announcement or something. :p
 

spwolf

Member
Feb 15, 2007
16,282
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0
DrXym said:
I don't know why they'd want less SPEs. The PS3 demonstrates how mind boggingly powerful they can be.

actually, awful broken machine translation mentions number of spu's going up, so not sure.

translation is so bad i dont think anyone can understand what it really means.
 

Wolves Evolve

Member
Sep 11, 2006
3,655
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God. Is this really a discussion? The console arms race is over, everybody lost, and we're going to be in a recession for five years at least. The next consoles are going to be cheeeeaaaaaappp.
 

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
Jan 18, 2007
46,616
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I think I've always believed that the R&D costs and initial investment in CELL tech would help them out much more in the following gen. I think that may be true. It will probably much cheaper to produce than the initial PS3 offering while being probably twice the CPU breadth.
 

Tormentoso

Banned
Mar 29, 2007
1,097
0
0
I think they learn the lesson,and i think they will go for a cheaper console that includes all like a $299 HDD build in,online free unit but with a low capacity HDD like 40 GB tops,after seeing how great the Wii has done at $250 i don't think they will try for another $500 or $600 console.

Sony loss their north,which was giving more to gamer for less,maybe they want to get back on that route fast.
 

badcrumble

Member
May 12, 2006
26,793
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Tormentoso said:
I think they learn the lesson,and i think they will go for a cheaper console that includes all like a $299 HDD build in, online free unit but with a low capacity HDD like 40 GB tops,after seeing how great the Wii has done at $250 i don't think they will try for another $500 or $600 console.

Sony loss their north,which was giving more to gamer for less,maybe they want to get back on that route fast.
Uh, no. HDDs are cheap as hell and they're going to continue getting cheaper. By 2012 40GB HDDs will be MORE EXPENSIVE than higher-capacity ones because nobody will be making them anymore.
 
Sep 21, 2006
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I just had an interesting idea about PS4. If PS4 has cell, Nvidia GPU and architecture similar to PS3 it should be fully compatible with PS3. Besides full backwards compatibility both machines could run same games, PS4 would simply run games at higher settings like PCs do. Games on PS4 could have more AA and better filtering with higher framerates and resolutions, more RAM and bandwidth would also allow better shadows and textures. Eventually there could be PS4 only games when it becomes economically feasible. This would make the transitions from generation to another significantly less painful, console generations could actually become shorter instead of longer.
 

Durante

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Oct 1, 2006
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Haunted said:
So the twice the power comment in the OP is debunked?

Someone needs to update this shit for me.
IMHO "twice the power" in the OP refers to the CPU. There, twice the power (that is FLOPs I guess) while being easier to program would make a lot of sense. OTOH, even rather low-cost GPUs today are much more powerful than PS360's. If an eventual PS4 doesn't have at least 5x the GPU performance of PS3 then I'll eat my hat. And that prediction is regardless of release date or price.
 

spwolf

Member
Feb 15, 2007
16,282
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0
So, PS4 So, CPU core 32 or the numbers and reach. Cell BE is present, 90nm shrink because of the layout while maintaining its basic version, the smaller the degree of reduction of the die. 235 square mm for the 90nm version, 65nm version is 175 square mm, 45nm version is 115 square mm. However, PS4 again to fix the design of a significant number of 45nm chips on the CPU cores can be (SPU Toshiba has significantly reduced the area of core). SCE’s original "IKEIKE" Under the plan, 45 ~ 32nm in the 24 core and 32-core Cell BE and had potential. As if Moore’s Law, 32 reach the core. But SCE will probably do so.

i dont think it mentions fewer spe's... in mentions more of them, running at higher frequency.
 

jts

...hate me...
Apr 29, 2007
17,472
1,004
1,620
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PT
davepoobond said:
this one better have 2 usb ports in the back like the ps3 was supposed to have omg and no spiderman font​
I'm rooting for comic sans. Day one if it happens, no matter the price.
 

Kaako

Felium Defensor
May 20, 2007
25,625
0
0
Yes
apod.nasa.gov
They need to stick with the cell architecture no matter what. That shit is a beast when utilized properly and by the time PS4 is released most 3rd parties would be very comfortable with the architecture hopefully. *looks @ Ubi*
 

camineet

Banned
Mar 30, 2007
8,073
0
0
Ultimately, here's what I expect from PS4's CELL:

*Greatly improved PPE design. A not-cripped PowerPC core. The PPE isn't very strong in many areas that other PowerPC cores are.

*2 or 4 PPEs

*A somewhat improved SPE designed, i.e. the 'eSPE' shown in the roadmap

*32 SPEs

*4 to 4.6 GHz clockspeed. Remember even the original first-gen CELL was designed to run at 4+ GHz, but Ken Kutaragi announced CELL would run at 3.2 GHz in the PS3 application.

*Over 1 TeraFlop performance. Keep in mind that Intel's first-gen Larrabee will reach 1 to 2 Teraflops with 16/24/32/48/64 cores.

*22nm manufacturing process node. The initial version of next-gen CELL will probably be on 32nm, in 2010-2011, but for PS4 in 2012, they could make it smaller, cheaper, cooler at 22nm.


As for the 32 SPEs configuration / 1 TeraFlop performance, what convinces me PS4 will get that?

Chief Cell Architect Jim Kahle in 2006:
We will push the number of special processing units. By 2010, we will shoot for a teraflop on a chip. I think it establishes there is a roadmap. We want to invest in it. For those that want to invest in the software, it shows that there is life in this architecture as we continue to move forward.

DT: Right now you’re at 200 gigaflops?

JK: We’re in the low 200s now.

DT
So that is five times faster by 2010?

JK: Four or five times faster. Yes, you basically need about 32 special processing units.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061031...curynews.com/aei/2006/10/the_playstation.html


The most recent roadmap:

 

Karma

Banned
Apr 6, 2007
3,245
0
0
Tormentoso said:
I think they learn the lesson,and i think they will go for a cheaper console that includes all like a $299 HDD build in,online free unit but with a low capacity HDD like 40 GB tops,after seeing how great the Wii has done at $250 i don't think they will try for another $500 or $600 console.

Sony loss their north,which was giving more to gamer for less,maybe they want to get back on that route fast.

Price is not the reason Wii is doing well.
 

Vinci

Danish
Oct 12, 2007
22,075
0
0
United States
Karma said:
Price is not the reason Wii is doing well.

Of course it is! I read it somewhere ... like, this analyst guy ... he said something about it - AND HE'S OBVIOUSLY RIGHT! HE'S AN ANALYST!




Seriously. People need to wake the hell up and realize this already: It isn't the price. Well, it is, but only in concert with a lot of other variables.
 

camineet

Banned
Mar 30, 2007
8,073
0
0
Dark Octave said:
Only twice? Didn't they say something like the PS3 is eight times more powerful than the PS2 and a bazillion bajillion times more powerful than the PS1?

Sony said PS2 is 300 times more powerful than PS1.

Sony & IBM said PS3 is 35 times more powerful than PS2.

I'm only expecting PS4 to be 5 times more powerful than PS3, at least in terms of CPU.
If Sony opts for a powerful year-2011/2012 Nvidia GPU for PS4, it could well be more than 5 times the performance of PS3's RSX, given that current Nvidia/ATI GPUs are already 4+ times more powerful than RSX or Xenos is.
 
Apr 4, 2008
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Tormentoso said:
I think they learn the lesson,and i think they will go for a cheaper console that includes all like a $299 HDD build in,online free unit but with a low capacity HDD like 40 GB tops,after seeing how great the Wii has done at $250 i don't think they will try for another $500 or $600 console.

Sony loss their north,which was giving more to gamer for less,maybe they want to get back on that route fast.

Uh, this thread has delivered a Tormentoso post that makes sense? It's like 2 broken Englishes do make a right!
 

Log4Girlz

Member
May 23, 2006
40,787
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Durante said:
IMHO "twice the power" in the OP refers to the CPU. There, twice the power (that is FLOPs I guess) while being easier to program would make a lot of sense. OTOH, even rather low-cost GPUs today are much more powerful than PS360's. If an eventual PS4 doesn't have at least 5x the GPU performance of PS3 then I'll eat my hat. And that prediction is regardless of release date or price.

If they choose an Nvidia chip again then yeah, I mean even if they try to go for a BOM that breaks even at $249 they'll have a GPU far more powerful than what's in the PS3, just not the leap one would expect (a 4x boost vs. an 8 or 12x boost).

Basically I would expect games to look like current gen bullshots.
 

epmode

Member
Jun 7, 2004
28,470
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0
Durante said:
I wish!
If history is any indication we'll see slightly more polys and shader effects and still barely acceptable IQ (except in bullshots :/)
Thank god. Gaming forums are full of people clamoring for all of this framerate-killing bullshit that is generally only really noticible in stills. I'd rather have new shaders and hear a few complaints about jaggy in-game power cables than have devs waste time worrying about this stuff.

Build a gaming PC. They're AWESOME for that stuff.
 

Doc Evils

Member
May 3, 2007
7,962
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Log4Girlz said:
If they choose an Nvidia chip again then yeah, I mean even if they try to go for a BOM that breaks even at $249 they'll have a GPU far more powerful than what's in the PS3, just not the leap one would expect (a 4x boost vs. an 8 or 12x boost).

Basically I would expect games to look like current gen bullshots.


FEB 27TH!

RECOGNIZE!
 

Log4Girlz

Member
May 23, 2006
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I mean the basic idea for Sony next-gen is to reboot the playstation name. Its got a bit of mud on it now and needs a clean up. They could even do this with the exact same hardware. They need to focus on a different market. Unfortunately Wii has taken up the casual market and Sony is splitting the HD market with MS. They need a cheap entry with tons of casual games. If anyone can do it Sony can. Though a PS3 redesign wouldn't be a bad idea.

If I were running Sony right now I would be focusing on getting the component costs to a lower price (which is naturally going to happen with time since the PS3 isn't a total bomb in sales), but I wouldn't lower the price of the original sku's, I would let the distribution channels run completely dry then relaunch the PS3 with a slim version with waggle wand in box for the lowest price I could afford (hopefully $299 or less).

I would have dozens of cheap, almost flash quality games to conincide with new hardware. Gamers who already own a PS3 just have to buy a new controller if they want to enjoy the new games I would be cranking out. I think that could really boost sales and they could eat away at MS' marketshare for the rest of the generation and help delay releasing a PS4.