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Opinion Gears/Coalition dev weighs in on appeal of game streaming

cormack12

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Mar 21, 2013
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Unwrapped thread on one page: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1411131445196689408.html



Tweet text:
1. There is a huge difference between what *I/YOU* want, and what "most people" want. Compartmentalize your personal preferences and think about what the vast majority of people value. I think the success of Mobile Gaming, <$400 TVs, and Netflix, proves that most people are ok with sub-par audio/visuals/input. Even if they would PREFER HD, when Streaming comes to a $25 HDMI stick, *most people* will take that over a $500 console. It's been proven in Music (Spotify over CD), and Video (Netflix over Bluray). But obviously the interactive part of gaming is a possible derailing of that...

2. Input lag IS a major factor that even the most casual person will have a breaking point on. However, there are cities TODAY where this is not a problem. I game almost exclusively via Streaming (Vancouver, Canada). 3 months ago it was unplayable to me due to latency. So if we know that it is POSSIBLE to have low enough input lag that the experience is good, the question is simply: Can that scale to a large amount of people? I think it is likely given that internet speeds/data centers are increasing not decreasing, but I don't know for sure.

3. Streaming doesn't need to REPLACE physical/digitial/consoles. It can be additive. I'd love to see a world where, while I am downloading a 100GB game, I can play it via Streaming until it is ready. Even if that's not perfect, it probably beats waiting hours/days to play it. Or play a demo of a game via Streaming rather than download 10-20GB. Or hop in a game with friends for a game night even though I forgot to install the game ahead of time.

It doesn't have to be a one and only way to play for EVERYONE. Rather than thinking about how "this will never replace how I want to play", maybe think about how it could improve some of the poor parts of the current experience.

4. Digital Ownership and Streaming are 2 separate things. Stadia/Nvidia allow you to buy games. xCloud doesn't. Different services will pop up offering different experiences.

That's it. 👍 Loving talking about this topic. I'm a little worried this is turning into tribes/camps of us vs them, when it can really improve gaming for everyone!

 

Badbreezy

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Streaming has its benefits when I was in line waiting for a GPU overnight, I was streaming madden online against another player, the connection was a bit choppy but still playable
Pass time
 
Nov 7, 2020
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Do these fucks have to put cringe clickbait pictures on literally everything?

Anyway streaming is ass even with the fastest internet speeds available. Probably still going to be a while before it's even close to being decent.
 

Jigsaah

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Jan 31, 2018
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Hard 8 was annoying as fuck to listen to and his method of debate is childish. I don't agree with Jaffe necessarily but I would hardly call that an intelligent debate. No fault of Jaffe though. Hard 8 was just...I hope he's not a creator, he felt more like a troll.
 
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IDKFA

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I'd fucking love to see streaming, combined with subscription services, totally replace physical and digital purchases.

Buying single games, either physical or digital, is so fucking old fashioned. I just want all games to be available on a streaming subscription service from day one. I never want to buy a single game again! It would also mean I'd never have to buy a console or PC, because all of it could be streamed to my phone/TV/ laptop etc.

I can't believe there are still people who would rather blow £70 on a single game, and only being able to play that game on selective hardware. This isn't fucking 1995 anymore people! We don't need to buy single games or pay for expensive hardware!

Bring on the future, and kill off the past!
 

Rikkori

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May 9, 2020
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Fuck streaming. Easy
Hard8 destroyed jaffe lol
"I've seen you play... you are garbage" lmfao
He's not wrong tho. I used to tune in to Jaffe talk about games sometimes but if you actually see him try to play games.... ufffff. If I were a game dev and I'd see him "play" the game like he does, I'd probably go find the nearest bridge to fly from, it's really that horrendous. Imagine crunching your heart out for years on end to try and make something great and then you see someone "play" like that. It really makes you rethink things. And don't get me wrong, I'm sure the wider public is just as awful & he also has ADHD to add to the issue, but it's terrible nonetheless.

Reminds me of Polygon tries to play Doom. And there was an even more awful version of another of these "pro reviewers" try Eternal, but can't remember who it was.

 
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TheGrat1

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Jun 2, 2020
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I game almost exclusively via Streaming (Vancouver, Canada). 3 months ago it was unplayable to me due to latency.
Wait, so this guy has been CHOOSING to have an "unplayable" gaming experience almost exclusively until the last 3 months? What kind of gamer is this???
 
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Jaybe

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Jul 14, 2018
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Tried xcloud this past week on my iPhone and I couldn’t have been more disappointed. Too imprecise with lag and cutting out. Might work for visual novel stuff. It made me go see if there was anything interesting new games in the App Store to play natively.
 

reksveks

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Jun 4, 2020
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This isn't true. You can buy the Xbox games and stream them. Right now XCloud only allows you to stream GamePass titles because it's still technically in "beta". The final version of XCloud will allow you to access your entire library or your home Xbox.
I would like to be a bit more accurate (in terms of cause and effect) imo, that's the hope and think Microsoft will mountain and earth to make that the case. it's not a technical issue which is what I think of when people use the term beta. It's a commercial issue as far as I can tell now, they need to get the publishers on board. I can however see Microsoft combining the two together and when they have all the necessary agreements in place, removing the beta moniker from xcloud.

The sad possibility is that like some of the local streaming, there might be some games that just never will be streamable (tetris effect and Psychonauts for example).
 

ManaByte

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I would like to be a bit more accurate (in terms of cause and effect) imo, that's the hope and think Microsoft will mountain and earth to make that the case. it's not a technical issue which is what I think of when people use the term beta. It's a commercial issue as far as I can tell now, they need to get the publishers on board. I can however see Microsoft combining the two together and when they have all the necessary agreements in place, removing the beta moniker from xcloud.

The sad possibility is that like some of the local streaming, there might be some games that just never will be streamable (tetris effect and Psychonauts for example).

You used to be able to locally stream your entire library from your home Xbox One to any PC on the same network that was running the Xbox Companion App.
 
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reksveks

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You used to be able to locally stream your entire library from your home Xbox One to any PC on the same network that was running the Xbox Companion App.
Yeah, I haven't tried that but the xbox to mobile streaming for tetris effect definitely isn't working so have to use parsec. I have started buying games now on xbox in order to build the library. I need to try out doki doki and see if it streams to my phone.
 

Chukhopops

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The MS approach to Xcloud is that it’s an option on top of the rest of GP. If you use Stadia you are stuck with streaming all the time, with GPU you get Xcloud for when you are commuting / travelling / visiting relatives etc and you still play mostly locally.
 

tmlDan

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May 30, 2017
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I dunno about most people but internet is still highly unreliable despite being faster. Internet drops, latency is fluctuating and unstable and i dont see that being fixed for at least 10 years or more despite improvements in technology.

honestly, sometimes I don't see them being fixed at all.

Jaffe's argument about mobile games making money is valid but mobile games are NOT streamed, even if the casual gamer plays a normal streaming service and has an interruption they will drop it and never play again....why? because attention spans are so low with all the tech and options we have that it will kill streaming. There is NO fool proof 100% always working streaming that will ever exist - while smart in concept i don't see many people enjoying it.
 
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dorkimoe

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I have gig internet up down, and wireless xCloud on my iPad Pro 2021 lags, but I recall beta testing stadia wired on my desktop and it worked great. So i think until they can get wireless latency down its a no for me
 

K2D

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May 31, 2021
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Fuck everything online game streaming related. The ONLY things I want from internet while I'm gaming is interaction with other players or optional AI. Games can data stream through 'next gen' I/O and local storage, just fine - without proprietary server technology.
 

DeepEnigma

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Slowly they will verbally condition you to like it. Just depends on the right message to the fanbases at the time who otherwise ridiculed it in yesteryear.
 
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arvfab

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No thanks. Only positive would be to stream demos, but for that, they should start making demos again.
 

Kenpachii

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This is why streaming is so dangerious for the console space and this is why u see sony/microsfot investing massively into first party IP's as 3rd party is most likely shifting over towards a netflix style solution sooner then later where the majority of people will play on.
 
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Feb 14, 2010
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This isn't true. You can buy the Xbox games and stream them. Right now XCloud only allows you to stream GamePass titles because it's still technically in "beta". The final version of XCloud will allow you to access your entire library or your home Xbox.
So I have question indivisible used to be on gamepass. It says it is cloud enabled still, so would I still be able to play it through xcloud even though it is no longer on gamepass?
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Unwrapped thread on one page: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1411131445196689408.html


Tweet text:
1. There is a huge difference between what *I/YOU* want, and what "most people" want. Compartmentalize your personal preferences and think about what the vast majority of people value. I think the success of Mobile Gaming, <$400 TVs, and Netflix, proves that most people are ok with sub-par audio/visuals/input. Even if they would PREFER HD, when Streaming comes to a $25 HDMI stick, *most people* will take that over a $500 console. It's been proven in Music (Spotify over CD), and Video (Netflix over Bluray). But obviously the interactive part of gaming is a possible derailing of that...

Yes, but in the gaming sphere, it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, with OnLive, Gaikai and now Stadia, that this is not what the vast majority of gamers want.

Music and video =/= videogames. I don't know how many game streaming ventures need to fail before people realise this.

When all six game streaming platforms to date have resolutely failed to even boast modest success among gamers, at what point do we start to accept the objective fact that the gaming market isn't interested and that all these silly value compromises we project onto the "mainstream" gamer simply don't at all reflect reality.

2. Input lag IS a major factor that even the most casual person will have a breaking point on. However, there are cities TODAY where this is not a problem. I game almost exclusively via Streaming (Vancouver, Canada). 3 months ago it was unplayable to me due to latency. So if we know that it is POSSIBLE to have low enough input lag that the experience is good, the question is simply: Can that scale to a large amount of people? I think it is likely given that internet speeds/data centers are increasing not decreasing, but I don't know for sure.

Yes, internet speeds are increasing but that's only one factor that influences the overall gaming experience when streaming. Latency isn't impacted by increases in available bandwidth. Bandwidth and download caps aren't going away. And overall network reliability hasn't improved at all since the very inception of large scale broadband rollout.... in fact it's gone backwards in many cities and many countries, as the lack of investment in infrastructure and increase pressure on the existing takes its toll.

3. Streaming doesn't need to REPLACE physical/digitial/consoles. It can be additive. I'd love to see a world where, while I am downloading a 100GB game, I can play it via Streaming until it is ready. Even if that's not perfect, it probably beats waiting hours/days to play it. Or play a demo of a game via Streaming rather than download 10-20GB. Or hop in a game with friends for a game night even though I forgot to install the game ahead of time.

It doesn't have to be a one and only way to play for EVERYONE. Rather than thinking about how "this will never replace how I want to play", maybe think about how it could improve some of the poor parts of the current experience.

While this isn't particularly a bad application for game streaming. It's still pretty redundant when pre-loading is a thing on almost every major platform now. In almost all cases streaming isn't the only nor even the best solution to a particular problem.

So to me, game streaming is a solution looking for a problem to solve, and so far it hasn't really found it yet.

And yeah, it's not on us, the gamer, to think about or figure out a way game streaming can be beneficial. If it isn't immediately obvious, as a technology, it becomes redundant. If there's no obvious problem it's solving for gamers, why do we need it? What is the business case for it?

The most touted, and primary business case given, i.e. obviating the upfront cost of a console, becomes a problem that appears vanishingly small when you consider just how freaking feverishly and voraciously the market is clamouring to buy new-gen consoles at $500 USD.

Perhaps... just perhaps, people actually see value in owning a physical console, since there are a great number of things a physical console can do that a $25 streaming stick can't (and so the supposed problem streaming is solving is actually rooted in a false equivalence).

4. Digital Ownership and Streaming are 2 separate things. Stadia/Nvidia allow you to buy games. xCloud doesn't. Different services will pop up offering different experiences.

That's it.
And yet as of now, none of them have launched to resounding success. If fact, dare I say, the only thing they've succeeded in is providing gamers with an alternative way to access games. In and of itself, that's not bad, but it's certainly a far cry from what the majority of pundits have been claiming about the future of game streaming. And I suspect it will remain so in perpetuity.
 
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rofif

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Sep 13, 2019
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But it will, if people decide to support it. They can't wait to have more power over consumers.
You won't have a choice.
Yep. McAfee died for this lol... Now the corporations will control the consumer
The appealing part of physical disc consoles is being able to play without internet (even not patched). I excellent all servers to sure in the future. Nobody will give a shit about PSN collection 59 years from now.
 
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clintar

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"I'd love to see a world where, while I am downloading a 100GB game, I can play it via Streaming until it is ready."
That's PS Now. Nobody cares about that though.
 

FunkMiller

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Aug 14, 2014
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Streaming may well be the future of gaming, but right now it’s fried piss.

I have tried PS Now on a Ps5 & LG CX with a 150 mb connection and a 7ms ping, and it’s still far from good.

I have also tried Xcloud on a Ryzen 9 5900, 3070 laptop with the same connection: also bollocks.

We’re still YEARS away from this being mainstream. The gulf between streaming and native gaming is still huge.
 
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Jul 29, 2013
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I've had decent experience with PSNow, and recently xCloud improved with the addition of XSX hardware. However, these are the worst of the streaming services. xCloud taking the prize as having the highest latency.

GFN was already good years ago(in fact it got slightly worse with the official rollout). It's good even relative consoles, especially last-gen base consoles that the majority of people play on.
 
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Great Hair

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There is a huge difference between what *I/YOU* want, and what "most people" want.

Disclaimer: I work on Gears at Microsoft, but I'm not involved w/Cloud Gaming or GamePass .. but I'm still gonna tell you via thirteen tweets WHAT YOU believe, think is wrong and that my opinion on this matter is right, because i said so.

How the fuck does this fucker know, WHAT WE want or WHAT EVERYONE wants? Ain´t reading that shit.

Melissa Mccarthy Snl GIF by Saturday Night Live
 

DarkMage619

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The MS approach to Xcloud is that it’s an option on top of the rest of GP. If you use Stadia you are stuck with streaming all the time, with GPU you get Xcloud for when you are commuting / travelling / visiting relatives etc and you still play mostly locally.
100% this. It is an OPTION. Has MS made ANY announcement to drop local gaming to do cloud streaming exclusively? I don't get why anyone would be opposed to an additional way to play games.

Slowly they will verbally condition you to like it. Just depends on the right message to the fanbases at the time who otherwise ridiculed it in yesteryear.
Like how people ridiculed the original Xbox because it only had ethernet and completely lacked a modem? Good thing MS verbally conditioned people to prefer ethernet or we would still be using dial up to play. There is nothing wrong with giving gamers multiple way to play games. Verbal conditioning has nothing to do with it.
 
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DeepEnigma

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Like how people ridiculed the original Xbox because it only had ethernet and completely lacked a modem? Good thing MS verbally conditioned people to prefer ethernet or we would still be using dial up to play. There is nothing wrong with giving gamers multiple way to play games. Verbal conditioning has nothing to do with it.
I'm sorry that still hurts.

I enjoyed the OG Xbox, played some great games on it.

On topic, like how people ridiculed OnLive, PSNow, Stadia (well that was shit, and their model was shit), etc., but now xCloud... "well wait a minute, streaming might not be so bad."

But my goodness, comparing ethernet to game streaming, woosah, PR much?

Happy Eddie Murphy GIF by Laff
 

Kuranghi

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Apr 17, 2015
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I tried Into The Nexus on PSNow last night on a 1Gbit connection and it looked pretty muddy, but that may just have been how it looks since its 720p (maybe with some form of AA that introduces artifacts). After I finish Rift Apart I'm going to hook up the PS3 again and see how it compares with the PSNow. Input lag wasn't too bad unless frames were dropped, then it was really noticeable, not sure if that was the game or the stream though.
 

onnextflix5

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Jun 6, 2019
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Surly £200 console is preferable then a streaming stick, we want to own gadgets and games, dont know why some are comparing to Netflix lol,xbox all acesss is a great idea, they just need to be more aggressive on pricing.
 
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