Gears of War 3 "Dust to Dust" trailer

StalkerUKCG

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akskiller said:
Paying for customization? Is this a first? I know BLOPS has free weapon skins and Reach has free customization while ranking up.
In a shooter i think it is, fight games have dlc costumes and soul calibur had dlc costume segments
 

Willeth

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I posted this elsewhere but I'd love to discuss this here also - what I really fucking hate about all of this is the misinformation, due to mismanagement or intent, about the content in the game.

The Infected Omen skins were supposed to be exclusive to the Epic edition, and then they pop up in the controller instead of just the Lancer as was marketed. The gold weapons were announced to be unlocked through various different methods, with Veteran Gear unlocking something special. Then it's the gold weapon pack again. Then the gold Lancer and Hammerburst are awarded for the first two weeks of play as well. Then maps and characters that have been shown in preview material for months are revealed not to be available at launch but are actually DLC. Then Adam Fenix, supposedly exclusive to the Limited and Epic editions, pops up as included in the IO weapons pack that comes with the controller.

It's just a massive mismanagement of expectation that confuses and pisses off anyone who's paying attention to what they're going to get. It reads like a bait-and-switch but it's brushed off by the developers because they've known about it for months and it was always going to be that way, but that misses the point - the anger isn't just that they're doing it, it's that it's a shift in what they thought was going to happen.

For a lot of people it's just another blow against them. Imagine the guy who's played all three Gears games, played the beta, was at the midnight launch for 2, has the Epic edition preordered, and was level fifty or so in Gears 2 but lapsed. Then he hears that he'll get something special in Gears 3 for getting to a hundred. So he goes for it, he gets it, and then not only is his reward something he's already got, it devalues his previous achievements. Oh well, never mind, they at least made one weapon exclusive. But then his preorder for the Epic edition is also devalued - every DLC pack he got in there comes with the controller. He'd rather have got a controller than a statue. If he'd have known from the start he would have put his money down differently. Now he's wasted both money and time.
 

-PXG-

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What's really annoying is that companies are monetizing stuff that was once an incentive to play the game. Little stuff like costumes and skins should be stuff you get from doing stuff in-game and rewarded to those who accomplish certain tasks. Instead, you're rewarded if you fork over enough cash.

Yeah, it's a business, but I just feel like they're going a bit over board with all of this DLC. Plus, you know these skins are on the disc too. I don't like the idea of having to pay for stuff I already bought.

Yeah, it's "optional". But if it were truly voluntary, give me the option to unlock it in-game.
 

Jtyettis

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OdysseusVA said:
This comment on the EPIC forums made me chuckle
Yea cause it sure as heck ain't going to be MS right. haha

Anyhow read the install size is 7.32GB. Is this correct? Should be the first game using the new discs. If DF is right about the new discs then there should be some more room to work with there.
 

Brolic Gaoler

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Lol, I go to bed and all hell breaks loose.

This is going to be the new horse armor, get ready to see this shit in every big release from here on out.

Nice work pissing everyone off Epic, nice work.

Shit's gonna be like a junkie who hates his dealer, lol.
 

Feindflug

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@GearsViking I am still in shock that you guys have on disc content (it's not DLC, so please dont call it that) that you are charging for.
@ImmortalArbiter Extra content is on disc so that everyone can see that you bought it, otherwise only you see the skin and what's the point
@NDCWii007 we put it on the disc to save you a mandatory download later. Trying to prevent compatibility issues.
Epic cares about their fans and they don't want us to spend bandwidth and fill our HDD's...Pure gold.
 

Lothars

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-PXG- said:
Yeah, it's "optional". But if it were truly voluntary, give me the option to unlock it in-game.
Agreed, The other thing I don't like is that if I do pick up the Season Pass it doesn't unlock all the dlc and I still have to buy some seperately.
 

OdysseusVA

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Jtyettis said:
Yea cause it sure as heck ain't going to be MS right. haha

Anyhow read the install size is 7.23GB. Is this correct? Should be the first game using the new discs. If DF is right about the new discs then there should be some more room to work with there.
Showing 7.5GB for me
 

-PXG-

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I love how Cliff made a big deal at GDC about making gamers wanting to "marry" your games, and not "date" them. He talked about creating games and content that made people commit to your product and discourage them from wanting to trade it in.

Guess what bud, this is not the kind of stuff that encourages people to keep their games. Giving players unlockable stuff in-game and things to earn by playing the game is what keeps people engaged. You don't win people over by telling them fork over more money for stuff that is already on the disc. Sure, there is a shit load of content in Gears 3. But this news will inevitably rub people the wrong way. It's just not good form.

I'm still gonna get Gears 3 and love it to death. But these weapon skins can kiss my ass. It would be silly to boycott the whole game over this. Instead, I'll just be smart and not buy whatever I has no value to me.
 

TRios Zen

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I'm not sure I can get behind all the animosity I'm seeing over these maps and skins, given the fact that with Gears 3, you aren't really talking about a sparse or anemic package. Honestly, for your initial $60 investment, you get a Single Player campaign (with 4 player co-op), MP (that many of us will spend HUNDREDS of hours on), horde and beast mode.

So it's not like we are getting ripped off here; we are getting a ton of content for our money. Post that initial investment, if you want the option of more MP character or weapon skins, Epic has created some that you can purchase. If you don't like/want the option of more skins, you simply don't have to buy them.

NOW I do understand not WANTING to pay for stuff, hell, I'd like everything free too, but when did "I don't want to pay for something" turn into "they OWE me that shit"?
 

StalkerUKCG

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Feindflug said:
Pure gold.
They could EASILY add it in with a game update, TU's can be any size now.

TRios Zen said:
I'm not sure I can get behind all the animosity I'm seeing over these maps and skins, given the fact that with Gears 3, you aren't really talking about a sparse or anemic package. Honestly, for your initial $60 investment, you get a Single Player campaign (with 4 player co-op), MP (that many of us will spend HUNDREDS of hours on), horde and beast mode.

So it's not like we are getting ripped off here; we are getting a ton of content for our money. Post that initial investment, if you want the option of more MP character or weapon skins, Epic has created some that you can purchase. If you don't like/want the option of more skins, you simply don't have to buy them.

NOW I do understand not WANTING to pay for stuff, hell, I'd like everything free too, but when did "I don't want to pay for something" turn into "they OWE me that shit"?
Sorry to tell you this but they DO OWE ME THAT SHIT.

The content is already on the disc YOU BUY. you already own that content then you pay further to unlock it. If this was regular DLC id have no problem hell iv paid £400+ on dlc already im no stranger to it, but this isnt regular dlc this is content already completed your paying for.

This is how i see it.

Studio Game Budget, Returns come from sales of game
Studio DLC Budget, Returns come from DLC.

In this case

Studio Game Budget, Returns come from sales and DLC.

Where getting content that was produced in the development cycle of the game that been printed on this disc and purposefully locked so they can make more money. Its greed at its finest, we have proof this content is already completed in the months old leaked build.
 

Seth Balmore

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StalkerUKCG said:
They could EASILY add it in with a game update, TU's can be any size now.
People have suggested it, but Epic have said that since TU files cannot exceed a certain size (Microsoft's orders), they aren't willing to misuse precious TU space by filling it up with bonus stuff.
 

Takamura-San

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I'm really find it hard to care about this.

Weapon skins? Really?

I would care for gameplay content being locked under a payed gate.
 

Feindflug

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TRios Zen said:
I'm not sure I can get behind all the animosity I'm seeing over these maps and skins, given the fact that with Gears 3, you aren't really talking about a sparse or anemic package. Honestly, for your initial $60 investment, you get a Single Player campaign (with 4 player co-op), MP (that many of us will spend HUNDREDS of hours on), horde and beast mode.

So it's not like we are getting ripped off here; we are getting a ton of content for our money. Post that initial investment, if you want the option of more MP character or weapon skins, Epic has created some that you can purchase. If you don't like/want the option of more skins, you simply don't have to buy them.

NOW I do understand not WANTING to pay for stuff, hell, I'd like everything free too, but when did "I don't want to pay for something" turn into "they OWE me that shit"?
So it's ok to charge you to unlock content that is already on the freakin' disc that you have payed 60$? I simply can't understand how can anyone defend such a move.
 

Takamura-San

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Feindflug said:
So it's ok to charge you to unlock content that is already on the freakin' disc and that you have payed 60$? I simply can't understand how can anyone defend such a move.
Look at MK9 and see why not having the content on disc sometimes is more of a fiasco.
 

-PXG-

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Feindflug said:
So it's ok to charge you to unlock content that is already on the freakin' disc that you have payed 60$? I simply can't understand how can anyone defend such a move.
Plus it's a bullshit skin. Let me unlock that stuff. It gives me incentitve to want to play the game and unlock stuff. Why nickle and dime me like that? Come on.
 

StalkerUKCG

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Seth Balmore said:
People have suggested it, but Epic said they need to keep TU size to a minimum so they aren't willing to include extra stuff in them.
Why do they NEED to keep it smaller, sorry but it sounds like a cop out. TBH i wouldnt really care if others couldnt see the skin its for me. couldnt they just add the skins the same way DLC characters are going to work, or are they on the disc already aswell?

Reckoner said:
Didn't know that Microsoft had changed their policy about TU size. Is there any official news out there?
Not officially i dont think but the latest TU for rockband was >4MB so the new XDK can compile bigger updates than 4MB potentially limitless
 

LowParry

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Eh, I don't really care too much about the skins but the characters and maps taken out of MP? Damn. Don't turn me sour Epic.
 

Willeth

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-PXG- said:
I love how Cliff made a big deal at GDC about making gamers wanting to "marry" your games, and not "date" them. He talked about creating games and content that made people commit to your product and discourage them from wanting to trade it in.

Guess what bud, this is not the kind of stuff that encourages people to keep their games. Giving players unlockable stuff in-game and things to earn by playing the game is what keeps people engaged. You don't win people over by telling them fork over more money for stuff that is already on the disc. Sure, there is a shit load of content in Gears 3. But this news will inevitably rub people the wrong way. It's just not good form.

I'm still gonna get Gears 3 and love it to death. But these weapon skins can kiss my ass. It would be silly to boycott the whole game over this. Instead, I'll just be smart and not buy whatever I has no value to me.
You know what, though? This has another side.

The person that buys this content and pays more money for their game experience is more likely to grab on to that for longer. While it outrages some people, only a very small subset of those are alienated, and even more people who don't see a problem with it at all get a greater attachment to the game.
 

Seth Balmore

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StalkerUKCG said:
Why do they NEED to keep it smaller, sorry but it sounds like a cop out. TBH i wouldnt really care if others couldnt see the skin its for me. couldnt they just add the skins the same way DLC characters are going to work, or are they on the disc already aswell?
Yeah, I worded that post really poorly, sorry. It's edited now. It's not that they need to keep TUs small, but rather that they can't exceed a certain size imposed by Microsoft so they want to be able to use that space to its fullest. That means no extra fluff.
 

Jtyettis

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Reckoner said:
Didn't know that Microsoft had changed their policy about TU size. Is there any official news out there?
I think they may have. Seems like a I remember a fairly large one this last time around with New Vegas. Not 100% sure.

As for these unlocks I can't say I care specifically here, but it is the road that MS going down rather. Between this and Crimson Allaince it seems they have opened a whole new wave of microtransactions for their games. Not gonna stop like a train off the rails. Just like horse armor 5 years ago. This is the new, new.
 

Takamura-San

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Seth Balmore said:
People have suggested it, but Epic have said that since TU files cannot exceed a certain size (Microsoft's orders), they aren't willing to misuse precious TU space by filling it with bonus stuff.
I would like to see the MS official policy that comes with Title updates.

Does the publisher have to pay for certification for a Title update?
 

renitou

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It doesn't matter if it was on the disc or downloaded. All DLC is built into development now. It's just a matter of who wants to pretend more that it is separate and truly couldn't have been included in the retail package. DLC as an idea is the horrible thing, not whether I have to download it or just unlock it.
 

TRios Zen

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Feindflug said:
So it's ok to charge you to unlock content that is already on the freakin' disc that you have payed 60$? I simply can't understand how can anyone defend such a move.
What are our options here?

1) They DONT include it on the disc, so you have to download it - would that make it better for you?
2) They GIVE it to you, because you said so. Come on, be reasonable, you know this isn't going to happen.

Look, I'm not defending companies screwing their customers over any chance they get. But when I look at the package that Epic IS delivering with Gears 3, I don't feel like charging for skins is that big of a deal. IF you feel like they ARE screwing you over, that is legitimate, but that is your opinion, and you can vote with your wallet.

It is NOT my opinion on this, as I think what Gears has to offer me is a ton of enjoyment over the coming years.
 

StalkerUKCG

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abracadaver said:
Where is the talk of locked out characters coming from ? Are there characters on the disc you can only use when you buy them ?
So far onyx guard and bernie, both on the disc and we have already seen leaked footage on honour guard in MP unsure about bernie
 

StalkerUKCG

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renitou said:
It doesn't matter if it was on the disc or downloaded. All DLC is built into development now. It's just a matter of who wants to pretend more that it is separate and truly couldn't have been included in the retail package. DLC as an idea is the horrible thing, not whether I have to download it or just unlock it.
Downloading it at least means its content that we dont own already, which im fine with. But if i buy a game i expect to be able to use every feature at will, i dont expect to have to pay more.

Again its like the car scenario, you wouldnt buy a car and expect that car to have back seats locked and require additional fees to open would you?

sorry for the double post.
 

sixteen-bit

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Lord-Audie said:
I would like to see the MS official policy that comes with Title updates.

Does the publisher have to pay for certification for a Title update?
AFAIK, the first one is free, but subsequent ones cost money.
 

NutJobJim

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Skins I dont care about cos they look kinda tacky anyway, but I was hoping for more than 10 maps and I dont wanna pay for characters (its not the same as a fighting game where characters have a bunch of moves etc. to justify the price.)
I'll prob buy the season pass so hopefully the characters can be downloaded with that.
 

Takamura-San

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renitou said:
It doesn't matter if it was on the disc or downloaded. All DLC is built into development now. It's just a matter of who wants to pretend more that it is separate and truly couldn't have been included in the retail package. DLC as an idea is the horrible thing, not whether I have to download it or just unlock it.
Doesn't mean that it was budgeted as part of the initial retail product.

Naive? maybe.

But i wouldn't put it out of the equation for some developers.
 

CrazedArabMan

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And this is what I'm afraid is going to happen with Saints Row 3 as well. Dang it, still getting Gears 3 but this is disappointing to say the least.
 

Feindflug

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TRios Zen said:
What are our options here?

1) They DONT include it on the disc, so you have to download it - would that make it better for you?
2) They GIVE it to you, because you said so. Come on, be reasonable, you know this isn't going to happen.

Look, I'm not defending companies screwing their customers over any chance they get. But when I look at the package that Epic IS delivering with Gears 3, I don't feel like charging for skins is that big of a deal. IF you feel like they ARE screwing you over, that is legitimate, but that is your opinion, and you can vote with your wallet.

It is NOT my opinion on this, as I think what Gears has to offer me is a ton of enjoyment over the coming years.
I'm not reasonable and Rod's twitter responses like "we're saving you from a mandatory download" are? so I guess we have to stfu and not talk, complain or show our discontent about anything because we'll have fun with the game.

So let's all sit down, shut up and see how this industry will turn into shit...at least it will be some funny shit.
 
StalkerUKCG said:
Its not even like they purposefully withheld content, its worse than that. This content is ON THE DISC you buy

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I'll never understand the logic that making you download it makes you feel better about it.

Nickle and dimeing at every corner sucks but making you download it all too is fucking stupid, put it all on the disc and I'll decide what I want to buy or not.
 

TRios Zen

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Feindflug said:
I'm not reasonable and Rod's twitter responses like "we're saving you from a mandatory download" are? so I guess we have to stfu and not talk, complain or show our discontent about anything because we'll have fun with the game.

So let's all sit down, shut up and see how this industry will turn into shit...at least it will be some funny shit.
I'm not telling you not to complain, it's a free forum, complain all you want.

However, it sounds to me, that you are arguing about the role of DLC in the decline of the current video game software arena.

That is not an argument I was contesting, or even taking a part in. I am simply stating that Epic monetizing some skins and maps, regardless of there physical location (on the disc or as DLC) is not that big of a deal to me, given the package they are delivering for my $60.
 

StalkerUKCG

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pr0cs said:
I'll never understand the logic that making you download it makes you feel better about it.

Nickle and dimeing at every corner sucks but making you download it all too is fucking stupid, put it all on the disc and I'll decide what I want to buy or not.
Thats not the case is it, Alot of DLC content specifically halo's for example is designed AFTER the game dev period ends. Everything before that dev period i expect included with my initial game purchase, im more than willing to drop more money for extra content aslong as that content has took extra man hours and been designed afterwards.

The point is these skins could be DLC day 1, maybe id give them leeway and believe they where created after the game went gold thats plausible. The fact this content was already in the leaked build however proves this content was designed within the dev period. Im paying £100 to help fund that dev period so i expect everything created in that for my £100
 

TRios Zen

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StalkerUKCG said:
They could EASILY add it in with a game update, TU's can be any size now.



Sorry to tell you this but they DO OWE ME THAT SHIT.

The content is already on the disc YOU BUY. you already own that content then you pay further to unlock it. If this was regular DLC id have no problem hell iv paid £400+ on dlc already im no stranger to it, but this isnt regular dlc this is content already completed your paying for.

This is how i see it.

Studio Game Budget, Returns come from sales of game
Studio DLC Budget, Returns come from DLC.

In this case

Studio Game Budget, Returns come from sales and DLC.

Where getting content that was produced in the development cycle of the game that been printed on this disc and purposefully locked so they can make more money. Its greed at its finest, we have proof this content is already completed in the months old leaked build.
Sorry, just caught your reply here:

I hear what you are saying, I just disagree, in THIS situation. IMO, there is an value that you, as a consumer, place upon any purchase you decide to make. For me, the value that Gears provided for my $60, prior to knowing about these skins, was enough to warrant a purchase.

I don't believe I am ENTITLED to these items, just because Epic was working on them, while working on the rest of the game. NOT for skins, it's just not that big of a deal.
 

StalkerUKCG

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TRios Zen said:
Sorry, just caught your reply here:

I hear what you are saying, I just disagree, in THIS situation. IMO, there is an value that you, as a consumer, place upon any purchase you decide to make. For me, the value that Gears provided for my $60, prior to knowing about these skins, was enough to warrant a purchase.

I don't believe I am ENTITLED to these items, just because Epic was working on them, while working on the rest of the game. NOT for skins, it's just not that big of a deal.
So you dont believe you entitled to what was made during the initial dev cycle? how far would this stretch. 10 maps on the disc they nickel and dime you for over a year period, you would still be happy?. How about 2 more campaign missions? Still happy? how about if they locked the ending chapter till you paid $10 to unlock it?

The point is its not just skins its also player models and maps that we know are already complete have been proven to be finished and are still with held for the sole reason of making more money from myself your yourself and the hundreds of thousands of others.
 

Arjen

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Yeah, i'm sorry, if i have to pay extra for something that's already on the disk, that shit doesn't fly with me.
Maybe i'm old fashioned that way regarding games, but if it already exists when i buy it, i want to have it for free, and maybe that's not fair in these days, but that's just how i feel.
 

TRios Zen

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StalkerUKCG said:
So you dont believe you entitled to what was made during the initial dev cycle? how far would this stretch. 10 maps on the disc they nickel and dime you for over a year period, you would still be happy?. How about 2 more campaign missions? Still happy? how about if they locked the ending chapter till you paid $10 to unlock it?

The point is its not just skins its also player models and maps that we know are already complete have been proven to be finished and are still with held for the sole reason of making more money from myself your yourself and the hundreds of thousands of others.
I honestly think you are way over-stepping the bounds of our discussion, sorry.

At no time have I blindly defended the practice of disc based DLC, nickel and dime-ing customers or any such thing. My argument has been pretty consistent I think:

Epic worked on A, B, C, D and E during the development of Gears 3 - they are providing, for my money A-D, and E, which is a small optional part of the larger experience, they want more money for. I am TOTALLY fine with that.

I think you used a car analogy earlier. If I bought a car, and they wanted me to pay extra for back seats, I'd be pissed too. But if they want me to pay extra for the optional leather upgrade with lumbar support, I can choose to pay for that or not, without having a lot of angst at the car dealer.

That is similar to what we are talking about here: the Gears 3 package is not only complete without the DLC, it has a ton of content. Why stress over some skins and maps?
 

specialguy

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StalkerUKCG said:
So you dont believe you entitled to what was made during the initial dev cycle? how far would this stretch. 10 maps on the disc they nickel and dime you for over a year period, you would still be happy?. How about 2 more campaign missions? Still happy? how about if they locked the ending chapter till you paid $10 to unlock it?

The point is its not just skins its also player models and maps that we know are already complete have been proven to be finished and are still with held for the sole reason of making more money from myself your yourself and the hundreds of thousands of others.

I'm not entitled to anything, nor are you.

The game will ship with plenty of content and I dont care/play MP much anyway, so i could care less about this. 9 maps sounds like plenty to me anyway.

10 maps on the disc they nickel and dime you for over a year period, you would still be happy?. How about 2 more campaign missions?
But they didn't do that, did they? They put 9 maps on the disc and the full campaign.

They did have a DLC of an extra campaign level in Gears 2, and it didn't go over that well. So I doubt we'll see it again. It was just a one off level and it felt pretty stupid not being integrated into the story.

Anyway, it amazes me the problems in the world and this is what Americans get worked up about. Minor "DLC" on amazing video games, DRM on PC games, my cell phone company makes me pay ten bucks for overage 4G data on my amazing superphone, it's the end of the world, I must write thousands of posts about this on the internet.
 

malfcn

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Wasn't some consumer protection agencies investigating dlc practices like this?

And instead of saying "unlockable" they should say "purchasable" - less confusion and more transparency of the situation.
 

Ballistik

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snack said:
If I buy the GOW3 controller now, will I still be able to get all those bonus goodies like ADAM FENIX?
I'd like to know this too, as I haven't bought the controller yet.