Germany: Merkel disgust at New Year gang assaults

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Jan 20, 2005
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#51
To add to this, here's the refugee statistics for Germany between January and October last year:

http://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/germany/statistics

During that period 360 000 applications were filed and roughly half rejected. Breaking it down further, virtually all 57 000 applications from Syria were approved while virtually all 65 000 applications from the Balkans were rejected. In addition, virtually all 15 000 applications from Eritrea and Iraq were approved while applications from Afghanistan were split, with 1400 approved and 600 rejected.
Wow... of 344,000 applicants, almost 70% were men.
 
Apr 6, 2009
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#52
Wow... of 344,000 applicants, almost 70% were men.
Since we are basically forcing people to walk over a continent, young men are most able to make the trip. Which is a problem. Countries like the UK take families directly from the refugee camps to their country. Canada and the US do the same. Which is a better solution, since then you don't split up families, provide a safe journey and probably prevent problems in the future because of that.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Dec 11, 2008
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#53
just quoting that telegraph.uk article

Two of the three three countries are safe countries and the people will be denied asylum. The same with the people from North Africa.

The real number we are talking about is so much smaller that pulling out numbers like 1,5 million (which was even busted several months anyway) or the 1 million is just plain made up shit.
It's not made up shit if you are unable to make those fake refugees leave.
 
Nov 13, 2013
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#56
It's not like someone was groping them secretly, pinching their butts, the girls were forced through human tunnels where everyone got a feel. There were groups of men assaulting girls. You can't in all honesty say that his kind of thing happens away from the public eye.
While you can honestly tell me that you, in a noisy and packed crowd, would instantly know that this is going on when you're separated from the event by several people and distracted by the celebrations? I'm not claiming that there weren't groups of men in the crowd committing these despicable crimes, I'm saying it's a stretch to blame the entire crowd for the crime without some proof that they all were in on it. Which the police agrees with.

If you ask me, trying to do so just looks like an attempt at reviving the 1000 strong marauding horde narrative because it sounds way more intimidating than a few dozen despicable individuals who used the crowd for cover in their crimes.

Some people seem to think the story ends at "their application was rejected".

These migrants walked from Turkey. They're not going anywhere.
The ones walking from Turkey are typically getting their applications approved, the ones from the Balkans are being rejected. Sure they might stay, but only illegally, with no right to work or welfare.
 
Apr 6, 2009
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#58
While you can honestly tell me that you, in a noisy and packed crowd, would instantly know that this is going on when you're separated from the event by several people and distracted by the celebrations? I'm not claiming that there weren't groups of men in the crowd committing these despicable crimes, I'm saying it's a stretch to blame the entire crowd for the crime without some proof that they all were in on it. Which the police agrees with.

If you ask me, trying to do so just looks like an attempt at reviving the 1000 strong marauding horde narrative because it sounds way more intimidating than a few dozen despicable individuals who used the crowd for cover in their crimes.
Sure, it wasn't all 1000 people there. But a few dozen among a thousand is still a pretty large number to me. And it is scary that groups of people are doing this. If it is just a few individuals, it wouldn't be as bad. But if you have a few dozen men harassing women and clearly setting out to do that, there is a big problem.
 
Nov 8, 2006
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#59
I don't think most people aren't ready to acknowledge just how much shitty conditions leads to this sort of behaviour, and just going "they should behave properly" is missing the point of what created this messed up situation in the first place.
 
Mar 5, 2007
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#60
I don't think most people aren't ready to acknowledge just how much shitty conditions leads to this sort of behaviour, and just going "they should behave properly" is missing the point of what created this messed up situation in the first place.
Will all due respect shut up. I don't care about their conditions, there's no excuse for it.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
Jun 15, 2006
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#61
While you can honestly tell me that you, in a noisy and packed crowd, would instantly know that this is going on when you're separated from the event by several people and distracted by the celebrations? I'm not claiming that there weren't groups of men in the crowd committing these despicable crimes, I'm saying it's a stretch to blame the entire crowd for the crime without some proof that they all were in on it. Which the police agrees with.

If you ask me, trying to do so just looks like an attempt at reviving the 1000 strong marauding horde narrative because it sounds way more intimidating than a few dozen despicable individuals who used the crowd for cover in their crimes.



The ones walking from Turkey are typically getting their applications approved, the ones from the Balkans are being rejected. Sure they might stay, but only illegally, with no right to work or welfare.
http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...e/news-story/8bcb3bd23a3658503c849971af9f0c1d

‘Katja L’, 28, told Der Express: “When we came out of the station, we were very surprised by the group that met us there”. She said the group was “exclusively young foreign men”. Keeping close to her friends, they pressed on:
“We then walked through this group of men. There was an alley through [the men] which we walked through. Suddenly I felt a hand on my buttocks, then on my breasts, in the end, I was groped everywhere. It was a nightmare. Although we shouted and beat them, the guys did not stop. I was desperate and think I was touched around 100 times in the 200 metres.
Yeah, I'm blaming the entire crowd standing around them, ignoring the screams and the fighting.
 
Apr 6, 2009
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#62
I don't think most people aren't ready to acknowledge just how much shitty conditions leads to this sort of behaviour, and just going "they should behave properly" is missing the point of what created this messed up situation in the first place.
What are the conditions that lead to this then? Because I don't see any excuse or reason. Assault and theft are not things you can get away with because of a different culture, background or views on society.
 
Nov 8, 2006
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#63
Will all due respect shut up. I don't care about their conditions, there's no excuse for it.
Not excusing these behaviours, but going "THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT!" is a tad myopic.
What are the conditions that lead to this then? Because I don't see any excuse or reason.
If these are the group that are being purported to be, it's the same conditions that lead to similar behaviours from other communities, a bunch of poor young kids who group up due to not seeing a viable way out and lash out.


Again, we should and must reprehend these behaviours, but I don't see how they could come as any surprise.
 

Moff

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Oct 15, 2012
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#64
And out of the 1000 no one thought there was anything wrong with assaulting and robbing German women. Or are giving testimony to the police who are already making statements it's unlikely many perpetrators will be convicted given the difficulty of distinguishing the perpetrators from the bystanders. Better 100 guilty ones free then 1 innocent convicted and all that.
it's the bystander effect, the more people around you, the smaller the chance anyone helps you. I don't think we can assume that all 1000 were in favour of these assaults, even if they decide to not testify to the police. most probably just try to stay out of trouble.

What if the perpetrators have an uneducated background, and religion that has a history of being aggressive towards females?
then we punish them according to the law, just like anyone else.
 
Mar 30, 2012
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#65
I don't think most people aren't ready to acknowledge just how much shitty conditions leads to this sort of behaviour, and just going "they should behave properly" is missing the point of what created this messed up situation in the first place.
That's a new one. We've had cultural difference, poor education, provocative women...I'll just stick "shitty conditions" and "messed up situation" on the list too. Anything to absolve the perpetrators of responsibility.

Not excusing these behaviours, but going "THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT!" is a tad myopic.

If these are the group that are being purported to be, it's the same conditions that lead to similar behaviours from other communities, a bunch of poor young kids who group up due to not seeing a viable way out and lash out.

Again, we should and must reprehend these behaviours, but I don't see how they could come as any surprise.
You say that, but you didn't do any reprehending. Your first post in the thread was just to downplay the responsibility of the perpetrators.
 
Apr 6, 2009
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#66
Not excusing these behaviours, but going "THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT!" is a tad myopic.

If these are the group that are being purported to be, it's the same conditions that lead to similar behaviours from other communities, a bunch of poor young kids who group up due to not seeing a viable way out and lash out.


Again, we should and must reprehend these behaviours, but I don't see how they could come as any surprise.
Being poor and young does not excuse you to do crimes like this. That is not a reason. This is not some shoplifting or "lashing out". This is a serious crime with victims who will now feel unsafe for years to come and maybe forever.
 
Nov 8, 2006
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#67
That's a new one. We've had cultural difference, poor education, provocative women...I'll just stick "shitty conditions" and "messed up situation" on the list too. Anything to absolve the perpetrators of responsibility.



You say that, but you didn't do any reprehending. Your first post in the thread was just to downplay the responsibility of the perpetrators.
Yes, I didn't do any reprehending, which isn't the same as absolving anyone.
Being poor and young does not excuse you to do crimes like this. That is not a reason. This is not some shoplifting or "lashing out". This is a serious crime with victims who will now feel unsafe for years to come and maybe forever.
By pointing out certain conditions that lead to these sort of behaviours is not me excusing the criminals.
 
Apr 10, 2014
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#68
Not excusing these behaviours, but going "THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT!" is a tad myopic.

If these are the group that are being purported to be, it's the same conditions that lead to similar behaviours from other communities, a bunch of poor young kids who group up due to not seeing a viable way out and lash out.


Again, we should and must reprehend these behaviours, but I don't see how they could come as any surprise.
What a viable way out? What are you talking about, out of poverty? By sexual harassment? What? Over 100 incidents, 75 percent with
sexual harassment.

Tell me these conditions?

Are they poor kids, if it's your girlfriend?

There is no excuse for this and these people should be punished as hard as possible.

And we should not talk around, we all know where this disrespectful behavior towards women come from.
 
Apr 6, 2014
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#69
One father said a group surrounded him his underage 15 year old daughter, putting their hands on her breasts, between her legs. Just disgusting. Others saying they stole their purses, phones, tried to force them into private cabs, etc.
Gonna need a source before you throw around stuff like that.
 
Apr 6, 2009
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#70
By pointing out certain conditions that lead to these sort of behaviours is not me excusing it.
It feels like downplaying it, as if there are reasons for them to do this. There are not.

Gonna need a source before you throw around stuff like that.
BBC is reporting it http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

One man described how his partner and 15-year-old daughter were surrounded by an enormous crowd outside the station and he was unable to help. "The attackers grabbed her and my partner's breasts and groped them between their legs."
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Oct 8, 2006
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#71
Being poor and young does not excuse you to do crimes like this. That is not a reason. This is not some shoplifting or "lashing out". This is a serious crime with victims who will now feel unsafe for years to come and maybe forever.
Stealing is not evil. People can be forced to steal if their family is starving. Sexual molestation and rape though? Thats something else entirely. And if someone handwaves the perpetrators actions as being from from a different culture then i suggest everyone buckle up because theres going to be big problems.
 
Apr 10, 2014
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#73
So to get this story straight it's not about stealing it never was :

Unterdessen melden sich immer mehr Opfer bei der Kölner Polizei. Mittlerweile seien mehr als 100 Anzeigen eingegangen, sagte eine Sprecherin am Mittwoch. Davon hätten drei Viertel einen sexuellen Hintergrund.

Over 100 incidents, 75 percent with sexual background.
 
Apr 6, 2009
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#75
I think that's being dismissive of what lead to it, I'm not downplaying it by simply not showing outrage in a public forum, if that's how it appears, well then that's my fault for not communicating well. There are 'reasons' just not sound ones.
I don't see what lead to it that is something that we can do about. Young and poor is not a reason. And if the reasons are not good ones like you say, why should we care about it.

Does Syria have a high degree of sexual assualt compared to other countries?
It has not been shown that these are Syrian refugees. The only thing we know is Northern African or Arabic looking, and according to some police officers unable to speak German. Some people showed them asylum papers, but those were not from the current refugee wave from Syria but about two years back if those reports are accurate.
 
Apr 14, 2009
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#77
So to get this story straight it's not about stealing it never was :

Unterdessen melden sich immer mehr Opfer bei der Kölner Polizei. Mittlerweile seien mehr als 100 Anzeigen eingegangen, sagte eine Sprecherin am Mittwoch. Davon hätten drei Viertel einen sexuellen Hintergrund.

Over 100 incidents, 75 percent with sexual background.

Are you sure that's not a mix up and they mean 3/4 were NOT with a sexual background?
On Monday the numbers were 60 incidents of which 15 cases were about sexual assault. It can't jump to 75 unless the two reports use a different definition.
 
Sep 12, 2009
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#79
So to get this story straight it's not about stealing it never was :

Unterdessen melden sich immer mehr Opfer bei der Kölner Polizei. Mittlerweile seien mehr als 100 Anzeigen eingegangen, sagte eine Sprecherin am Mittwoch. Davon hätten drei Viertel einen sexuellen Hintergrund.

Over 100 incidents, 75 percent with sexual background.
Source: http://www.dw.com/de/kölner-polizeichef-albers-lehnt-rücktritt-ab/a-18962888

Apparently it might also be difficult to find evidence which could make convictions unlikely
 
Apr 10, 2014
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#81
Are you sure that's not a mix up and they mean 3/4 were NOT with a sexual background?
On Monday the numbers were 60 incidents of which 15 cases were about sexual assault. It can't jump to 75 unless the two reports use a different definition.
Don't know if your first language is German but here you go..http://orf.at/m/stories/2317567/2317569/
 

Zaph

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Jun 19, 2010
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#82
Does Syria have a high degree of sexual assualt compared to other countries?
It's not clear exactly who the perpetrators were, and if you check out the stats posted earlier, not even a third of asylum seeker applicants in Germany were Syrian.

This is unfortunately the sad reality for Syrian asylum seekers - they're getting lumped in with a whole bunch of migrants who aren't escaping warzones and probably don't appreciate their adopted home as much as somebody who is.
 
Apr 14, 2009
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#83
According to what I read now, women told police offers in later talks when discussing the charges they were also groped, so that has been added.
Don't know if your first language is German but here you go..http://orf.at/m/stories/2317567/2317569/
Davor hatte es geheißen, dass hauptsächlich Anzeigen wegen Diebstahls eingegangen waren. Nach den Vernehmungen der Opfer habe sich ein klareres Bild der Taten ergeben. „Viele Frauen geben in den Gesprächen an, dass sie auch angefasst wurden“, sagte die Sprecherin.
Thanks, that makes sense now. Makes it worse though. Also doesn't exactly make their police work shine which was very weird throughout the whole incident. I hope this also doesn't include individual reports of girls who said the police didn't take their sexual assault complains seriously.



And yeah, as I mentioned before, it's very unlikely they will be able to identify any good number of these criminals.
 
Aug 23, 2011
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#84
It's not clear exactly who the perpetrators were, and if you check out the stats posted earlier, not even a third of asylum seeker applicants in Germany were Syrian.

This is unfortunately the sad reality for Syrian asylum seekers - they're getting lumped in with a whole bunch of migrants who aren't escaping warzones and probably don't appreciate their adopted home as much as somebody who is.
It has not been shown that these are Syrian refugees. The only thing we know is Northern African or Arabic looking, and according to some police officers unable to speak German. Some people showed them asylum papers, but those were not from the current refugee wave from Syria but about two years back if those reports are accurate.

Instead of deflecting, can you answer the question? I'll broaden the country of origin if that makes you feel better.

Do the countries that the asylum seekers come from have a higher degree of sexual assault compared to other countries?
 
Jun 13, 2015
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#89
So to get this story straight it's not about stealing it never was :

Unterdessen melden sich immer mehr Opfer bei der Kölner Polizei. Mittlerweile seien mehr als 100 Anzeigen eingegangen, sagte eine Sprecherin am Mittwoch. Davon hätten drei Viertel einen sexuellen Hintergrund.

Over 100 incidents, 75 percent with sexual background.
It's both connected though. It seems some groups used sexual assault as a ruse to distract their victims while they robbed them.

On New Year's eve it was the most extreme yet, but according to the police these robberies have been going one for a while, and groping people to distract them is a known tactic
 
Apr 10, 2014
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#90
Thanks, that makes sense now. Makes it worse though. Also doesn't exactly make their police work shine which was very weird throughout the whole incident. I hope this also doesn't include individual reports of girls who said the police didn't take their sexual assault complains seriously.



And yeah, as I mentioned before, it's very unlikely they will be able to identify any good number of these criminals.
Like mentioned in the article, that's the arguing between the head of the police union and the home secretary. It seems like the police, who should be there, were at the boarder in Bayern.
 
Jun 27, 2010
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#92
I don't think most people aren't ready to acknowledge just how much shitty conditions leads to this sort of behaviour, and just going "they should behave properly" is missing the point of what created this messed up situation in the first place.
I'd generally argue a similar position, but what conditions led to these men raping and sexually assaulting girls and women?

This is wanton abuse by people who see the people they are raping and assaulting as inferior.
 
Apr 6, 2009
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#93
There's no good reason for any crime, but not understanding it won't prevent them. Punishment only goes half way.
I do think a large part of the issue is the lack of punishment. I brought this up in an earlier thread, about how these crimes (assault on the street, theft) are not being punished accordingly and even if people are caught they are free on the streets pretty quickly.
 
Apr 10, 2014
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#96
It's both connected though. It seems some groups used sexual assault as a ruse to distract their victims while they robbed them.

On New Year's eve it was the most extreme yet, but according to the police these robberies have been going one for a while, and groping people to distract them is a known tactic
It is yes, known as "antanzen" but between this and making a circle around the victims and than touch them is a wide gap in my book.
 

Zaph

Member
Jun 19, 2010
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#97
Instead of deflecting, can you answer the question? I'll broaden the country of origin if that makes you feel better.

Do the countries that the asylum seekers come from have a higher degree of sexual assault compared to other countries?
Nobody is deflecting or trying to "feel better", you asked about Syrians specifically when all we know is they were of "Arab or North African appearance" and Syrians don't even make up a third of current Asylum seekers, let alone the previous wave.

Understand the crisis better and you might be able to ask the more appropriate question the first time around.
 
Dec 7, 2008
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#99
Absolutely disgusting. Reminds me of the attacks on the reporter in Egypt some time ago. Don't really want to believe that this can happen in EU.

EU countries would be wise to set a zero tolerance policy and ship the shitheads back.
We can't, which is the big problem. You can't send asylum seekers back if there's a reasonable chance they'll get killed, not to mention that a bunch of them "lose" their papers during the trip. We can't just dump them on some other country, they are well within their rights to refuse them entry.
 
Jan 26, 2006
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EU countries would be wise to set a zero tolerance policy and ship the shitheads back.
With many European countries having a conviction rate of below 5%, that won't do. What will be a lot more effective is not to combine different goals.
Germany has a very low birth rate, and Merkel thinks having refugees will stop population decline. This is true, but causes more problems than it solves as they don't bring in the kind of people they need. The surge in crime and unemployment costs will sway the populace against refugees. It also attracts many immigrants from peaceful countries.
All this makes helping refugees from war more difficult.

The solution is to accept refugees from war, while making it completely clear that non of them will ever be allowed to stay in Germany when the war is over. In the meantime do not mix them with the general population but instead build migrant cities where they have to stay during their shelter, while providing them with food, shelter, medicine and other basics where needed.
People who misbehave during their stay there and pray on fellow refugees need to be deported or locked up for the remainder of the war in Syria.

Population decline can be prevented by domestic measures and by allowing migration of people who can contribute, for example educated people from Asia and South America.
 
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