Germany: Merkel disgust at New Year gang assaults

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Morrigan Stark

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That can't be right... holy shit

Countless Syrians and refugee's attended the protests against sexism and racism yesterday, holding placards saying ‘No to Sexism, No to Racism’ and ‘#SyriansAgainstSexism’ etc. Refugees also gave out flowers to passers-by, and held signs saying: ‘We respect the values of German society’ and ‘We are all Cologne’. Hope these things are also getting coverage.

Germans and refugees protest sexism and racism in wake of Cologne attacks

Thousands in Germany protest racism, attacks on refugees

‘No to Sexism, No to Racism’: Syrian refugees hand out flowers in German protest

Also, these flyers are being handed out by the refugee's too.

Syrian refugees in Germany are handing out these fliers to condemn the attacks in Cologne
Nice. I hope their voices only get louder.

I don't want to sound cynical but only the most naive person would believe they weren't paid and asked to do that, can't stand manufactured goodwill but I understand they need some good publicity since most of the crimes were done by other groups.
Whaaa? Paid by whom, exactly?
 

SolidusDave

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Countless Syrians and refugee's attended the protests against sexism and racism yesterday, holding placards saying ‘No to Sexism, No to Racism’ and ‘#SyriansAgainstSexism’ etc. Refugees also gave out flowers to passers-by, and held signs saying: ‘We respect the values of German society’ and ‘We are all Cologne’. Hope these things are also getting coverage.

Germans and refugees protest sexism and racism in wake of Cologne attacks

Thousands in Germany protest racism, attacks on refugees

‘No to Sexism, No to Racism’: Syrian refugees hand out flowers in German protest



Also, these flyers are being handed out by the refugee's too.

Syrian refugees in Germany are handing out these fliers to condemn the attacks in Cologne

Those are nice symbols and it's important to maintain the trust of the public, fighting against irrational fears.
However, note the emphasis on Syrian refugees. Only racist fucks or uninformed people blame a) all refugees b) particularly Syrians as we have the data to back up that they are not overly involved in crimes / don't do more crimes than the German average.
Surely most people are aware of that. The problem are the minority groups from mainly the North-African countries as we know now that the majority of the NYE suspects was from there and then there's the insane 40% criminal rate of North-African refugees according to a police report...


Regarding the Swedish police thing:
Maybe they should just phrase it better? If it's about reducing racist attacks then point that out and don't say that the police shouldn't be racist. Because there's nothing racist about stating the ethnicity for all cases. Then you either have the numbers to combat racist believes OR if a certain demographic is actually overrepresented you can make that problem known and do something about it. (and btw if this is for cases in which the police really isn't sure about the suspect yet then they are usually looking for witnesses etc. in that same report which means you should give all information)
 

YourMaster

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I don't know if there is an alternative. Journalists are human and humans are inherently subjective beeings. Of course they will report what they think is right.
Of course it is wrong if journalists knowingly keep information from the public, but thats not what Zimmermann is refering to, thats not what happened here.
If anything german public media is guilty of a humanist bias here.
It's more than that, it's that there's also a fundamental lack of understanding what journalism is all about. A Dutch source reports in an interview with the German WDR journalist Claudia Zimmermann that the German government gave direct instructions to 'be positive about the refugees'.
That the government tries this is one thing, but what makes it horrible is the attitude reflected in this from the reporter:
"We are public broadcasters, we're payed for with tax money and that means we'll voice the will of the government, not that of the opposition". (source)

In my opinion any journalist should want to bring the truth to their viewers/readers, and if the government tells you to look the other way that should make them become extremely suspicious.
If this view is shared among her colleagues in German public broadcasting - that because they are payed by the government they have to be their spokesperson - it would mean a serious free press problem in Germany as many people rely primarily on public broadcasting for their news and it is generally well respected as a source.
 

Always-honest

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The floodgates have really opened with everyone telling their stories now. Welt.de has a story about a 30-year old woman working in a refugee center in Hamburg since fall last year: http://www.welt.de/print/wams/hamburg/article151089911/Ich-halte-es-nicht-mehr-aus.html

Some Google Translate quotes with edits from me to make it better readable:













If this is regular occurrence in these centers, I don't know how they are able to handle it.
Jesus... That's such a disappointement. I'm always trying to tell my slightly right-winged parents that thes are just incidents and most are willing friendly people like us. But the more i hear, the more it turns out right winged populist assholes are right. Horrible to hear they are this demanding and even more horrible to hear how they treat of women.
 

ZaCH3000

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I still advocate for cultural tolerance lectures and seminars for prospective refugees that ends with them signing a contract that obligates them to accept the cultural differences of the country willing to accept and protect them.

It's already a requirement for westerners at international companies and military personnel to undergo this training prior to integration into communities abroad and should in turn be required on the inverse.

Can't put your beliefs aside for protection and safety, or opportunity and prosperity? Then tough cookie, be next door neighbors with war and despair.
 

neorej

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The floodgates have really opened with everyone telling their stories now. Welt.de has a story about a 30-year old woman working in a refugee center in Hamburg since fall last year: http://www.welt.de/print/wams/hamburg/article151089911/Ich-halte-es-nicht-mehr-aus.html

Some Google Translate quotes with edits from me to make it better readable:


If this is regular occurrence in these centers, I don't know how they are able to handle it.
This sounds pretty accurate with my experience working on an asylumseekers center.
 

Chairmanchuck

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The floodgates have really opened with everyone telling their stories now. Welt.de has a story about a 30-year old woman working in a refugee center in Hamburg since fall last year: http://www.welt.de/print/wams/hamburg/article151089911/Ich-halte-es-nicht-mehr-aus.html

Some Google Translate quotes with edits from me to make it better readable:

If this is regular occurrence in these centers, I don't know how they are able to handle it.
I only have anecdotal "evidence", but the bf of my sister is working in one of the refugee camps (he is a soldier). When they try to break up an argument, what usually follows are assaults/a fight.
Another thing he told me is, that usually the older dads do not really care about their children. He really likes to play with the children and some children call him "dad", while the real dads are in some group, playing cards and drinking beer.
 

Drencrom

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The floodgates have really opened with everyone telling their stories now. Welt.de has a story about a 30-year old woman working in a refugee center in Hamburg since fall last year: http://www.welt.de/print/wams/hamburg/article151089911/Ich-halte-es-nicht-mehr-aus.html

Some Google Translate quotes with edits from me to make it better readable:













If this is regular occurrence in these centers, I don't know how they are able to handle it.
This sounds pretty accurate with my experience working on an asylumseekers center.
I only have anecdotal "evidence", but the bf of my sister is working in one of the refugee camps (he is a soldier). When they try to break up an argument, what usually follows are assaults/a fight.
Another thing he told me is, that usually the older dads do not really care about their children. He really likes to play with the children and some children call him "dad", while the real dads are in some group, playing cards and drinking beer.
Yikes...

@Neorej; Can you elaborate?
 

Mendrox

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This sounds pretty accurate with my experience working on an asylumseekers center.
And the one from one of my friends that also worked here in a aslyumseeker center. She couldn't take the stress anymore and sometimes she also feared for herself a bit. It is difficult that woman have so much problems because some assholes didn't learn proper respect. She visits the little ones sometimes or still helps with clothing at that cold weather, but fuck all ungrateful assholes in this world.
 

Weckum

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That's pretty inane, though. Everyone who is not an absolute fucking idiot knows it has nothing to do with race per se and not every Syrian or refugee is a potential rapist. At the same time nothing will change the people's mind that actually believe this.
I wish this was true, but there are a lot of sane people in Europe who think like this. This is a protest against refugees in the Netherlands a couple of weeks ago.



The banner on the right says: 'A refugee with full balls, will take your daughter with the biggest ease'.

Mind you, this is BEFORE all the stuff in Germany happened:
 

1.21Gigawatts

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It's more than that, it's that there's also a fundamental lack of understanding what journalism is all about. A Dutch source reports in an interview with the German WDR journalist Claudia Zimmermann that the German government gave direct instructions to 'be positive about the refugees'.
That the government tries this is one thing, but what makes it horrible is the attitude reflected in this from the reporter:
"We are public broadcasters, we're payed for with tax money and that means we'll voice the will of the government, not that of the opposition". (source)

In my opinion any journalist should want to bring the truth to their viewers/readers, and if the government tells you to look the other way that should make them become extremely suspicious.
If this view is shared among her colleagues in German public broadcasting - that because they are payed by the government they have to be their spokesperson - it would mean a serious free press problem in Germany as many people rely primarily on public broadcasting for their news and it is generally well respected as a source.
Well, when you look her work up it seems weird that she would even comment about this topic, because she is reporting on circus animals in the netherlands and art exhibitions.
Nothing political whatsoever.
Her allegations just don't make any sense. Especially the one that the public media is reporting more positively about the government than opposition because the public media is going very easy on opposition parties ever since there is the great coalition, because the media sees it as its duty to go after the government harder since they have such a huge majority in parliament right now.
Claiming that its the other way round just doesn't make any sense when you look at the reporting.


I follow media in 4 countries. US, UK, Germany and Turkey.
German public media(ARD*, ZDF) are by far the best outlets in any of these countries in my opinion. Of course quality varies from report to report, but german public media has on average the most consistent high quality reporting. I would go so far that they are amoung the best media outlets in the world.
The fact that they are the ones who are getting criticized and having to deal with ridiculous allegations is weird.
I mean, they are used to the right wing going after them because they're constantly exposing the stupidty on the right. "Lügenpresse"(Lie-media) is a common chant on right wing demonstrations, but this dumb rhetoric seems to have some broader effect.


*WDR is part of ARD


WDR commented on the allegations btw:
Das entspricht in keinster Weise der Haltung des Unternehmens
"This reflects in no way the stance of our company."
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/medien/wdr-journalistin-wir-sind-angewiesen-pro-regierung-zu-berichten/12843706.html
They are investigating it and want to talk to Zimmermann about it.
We'll see.


Edit: This is the stuff public media wants to fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrdxh6v0jtU
If people think thats biased or dishonest I would say these people are wrong.

Do these refugees work or do anything while in these camps?
No, they aren't allowed to do anything.
 

El Topo

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In my opinion any journalist should want to bring the truth to their viewers/readers, and if the government tells you to look the other way that should make them become extremely suspicious.
Well, she makes it clear with the last line, omitted by ClosingADoor, that there is no such thing as a cartel of silence. That said, her comments seem generally bizarre, especially her stance towards journalism in general. If there was an order to push pro-refugee news, I don't have a TV so I cannot say whether WDR program was full of "Long live Merkel!" chants, then there is surely evidence beyond her word.

If this view is shared among her colleagues in German public broadcasting - that because they are payed by the government they have to be their spokesperson - it would mean a serious free press problem in Germany as many people rely primarily on public broadcasting for their news and it is generally well respected as a source.
That is most definitely not the case. Now there is unquestionably bias, it's always been that way and the problem is certainly amplified by the grand coalition, not to mention the general problems that journalism (e.g. due to a lack of diversity) has, but there is no way most people there share (what seems to be) her stance on journalism.
 

Stitch

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Two German transgender women 'are STONED in the street' by a gang of three North African teenagers in Dortmund who said 'such people' should be killed
http://www.*****************/news/article-3402706/Two-German-transgender-women-STONED-street-gang-three-North-African-teenagers-Dortmund-said-people-killed.html
edit: ah fuck, dailymail is blocked. eehh let me see if I find another english source

meh my google-fu is weak, whatever, better than nothing
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/16/t/
 

1.21Gigawatts

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Two German transgender women 'are STONED in the street' by a gang of three North African teenagers in Dortmund who said 'such people' should be killed
http://www.*****************/news/article-3402706/Two-German-transgender-women-STONED-street-gang-three-North-African-teenagers-Dortmund-said-people-killed.html
edit: ah fuck, dailymail is blocked. eehh let me see if I find another english source

meh my google-fu is weak, whatever, better than nothing
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/16/t/
Interesting how everybody just assumes that they're refugees and therefore uses it as ammunition in the debate.
They were all underage, thatswhy the police isn't giving out specific personal information, but they have a criminal record and their parents were informed, thatswhy I doubt they are part of the recent waves of migrants.

I think it should also be mentioned that the police reacted quickly and nobody was hurt.
 

ClosingADoor

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Interesting how everybody just assumes that they're refugees and therefore uses it as ammunition in the debate.
They were all underage, thatswhy the police isn't giving out specific personal information, but they have a criminal record and their parents were informed, thatswhy I doubt they are part of the recent waves of migrants.

I think it should also be mentioned that the police reacted quickly and nobody was hurt.
Nobody was hurt, except the two women who now live in fear of this happening again...

The problem isn't so much the current refugees from Syria, as it is the people pretending to be refugees coming in and the problems with integration and crime we have already seen in various European countries because of that. Naturally people don't want that problem becoming worse by letting in a lot more people until that is solved somehow.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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Nobody was hurt, except the two women who now live in fear of this happening again...

The problem isn't so much the current refugees from Syria, as it is the people pretending to be refugees coming in and the problems with integration and crime we have already seen in various European countries because of that. Naturally people don't want that problem becoming worse by letting in a lot more people until that is solved somehow.
But unless you want to stop helping people who need help there is nothing you can really do about that. So we will just have to live with it.
The crime also isn't a significant or surprising problem so far(at least not in germany), according to statistics by the BKA the crime rate among refugees is exactly as anticipated and not higher than the crime rate in comparable groups of germans.
But when the media starts reporting on every incident involving refugees(or in the case above, people who look like refugees) while specifically pointing out the fact(or assumption) that they are refugees, then the general public starts to think the problem is bigger than it actually is.
And think they need to be called out for it. At least the "credible" outlets. Doesn't make sense to call out obvious right wing outlets on their bullshit. The ones who like to think of themselfs as centered should be called out. In germany that is FOCUS for example.
(For the german readers here: http://www.operation-harakiri.de/?p=853 )

The right wing terror and crime in response to Merkels policies is actually the much bigger problem in germany right now. But fearmongering only goes in one direction.
 

ClosingADoor

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But unless you want to stop helping people who need help there is nothing you can really do about that. So we will just have to live with it.
The crime also isn't a significant or surprising problem so far(at least not in germany), according to statistics by the BKA the crime rate among refugees is exactly as anticipated and not higher than the crime rate in comparable groups of germans.
But when the media starts reporting on every incident involving refugees(or in the case above, people who look like refugees) while specifically pointing out the fact(or assumption) that they are refugees, then the general public starts to think the problem is bigger than it actually is.
And think they need to be called out for it. At least the "credible" outlets. Doesn't make sense to call out obvious right wing outlets on their bullshit. The ones who like to think of themselfs as centered should be called out. In germany that is FOCUS for example.
(For the german readers here: http://www.operation-harakiri.de/?p=853 )

The right wing terror and crime in response to Merkels policies is actually the much bigger problem in germany right now. But fearmongering only goes in one direction.
Seems to me like fear mongering about the right wing is in full effect for some time already also, to the point of not releasing information or talking about problems because it might move people to the right.

And yes, there are ways to help people who need it without just letting anybody in, house them for months and then have to costly deport them or let them disappear into an illegal life. The UK, Canada and US are doing it through the UN programs.

Plenty of credible outlets are reporting on problems with immigrants also, this is not some right wing propaganda going on that has no basis in reality.
 

leatherhat

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But unless you want to stop helping people who need help there is nothing you can really do about that. So we will just have to live with it.
And there it is. Deal with it. Sexual assault and rape? Deal with it. Stonings? Deal with it. Backwards values from backwards cultures? Deal with it. Deal with all the problems being caused by open borders and mass immigration so long as I get to pat myself on the back over how good of a person I am.

You want to help people? Maybe start helping the women and Jews and gay people of Europe.
 

Doczu

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And there it is. Deal with it. Sexual assault and rape? Deal with it. Stonings? Deal with it. Backwards values from backwards cultures? Deal with it. Deal with all the problems being caused by open borders and mass immigration so long as I get to pat myself on the back over how good of a person I am.

You want to help people? Maybe start helping the women and Jews and gay people of Europe.
Can't add more.
It's "everything but those bad right-wingers!" mentality at full.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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Seems to me like fear mongering about the right wing is in full effect for some time already also, to the point of not releasing information or talking about problems because it might move people to the right.
Is it fearmongering when its an actual problem?
Its not just some "worried citizens" anymore.
From 2011 to 2015 the number of violent attacks on refugee houses has increased from 18 attacks in 2011 to 924 attacks in 2015.
Attack against refugees have quadrupled from 2014 to 2015.

Here is a collection of all the violence against refugees and refugee housing from 1991 till today.
Every year had its own chapter up until 2015, then they had to make an extra chapter for every month.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Angriffen_auf_Flüchtlinge_und_Flüchtlingsunterkünfte_in_Deutschland#2015


But were're used to hearing that by now. Right now the cool thing is to focus on the other side.
After NYE a father from Tunesia and his 13yo daughter were racially insulted, teargassed and beaten down by multiple people on a public place and ended up in hospital.
Police didn't publish the incident until a week later.
No biggie, but when the evening news are a few hours late on the events in cologne because they wait for more facts than thats a huge scandal.


And yes, there are ways to help people who need it without just letting anybody in, house them for months and then have to costly deport them or let them disappear into an illegal life. The UK, Canada and US are doing it through the UN programs.
Yeah, thats working like a charm...
But they also don't have to decide between letting people in or letting them die, because the refugees aren't landing at their coasts.


Plenty of credible outlets are reporting on problems with immigrants also, this is not some right wing propaganda going on that has no basis in reality.
But the credible outlets put it into perspective and only mention the origin or religion of the persons when its important information, in order to not incite stereotypes and hate.

But when there are countless of fistfights all over germany everyday, and an outlet decides to report on the one fistfight involving refugees, and making sure to mention that they are refugees, muslims and shouted in arabic, thats bad journalism... and thats happening right now all across europe.


A few months ago a german discounter had a new product in stock and it was some kitchen equipment people loved and it was very cheap, so people went nuts over the limited stock and it got violent in stores, police had to come, complaints were filed, charges were pressed.
On the same day the story broke of refugees in a camp who got violent over food.

The reactions to these stories were entirely different:
1. Story: "Ah thats cute, housewives going nuts over the newst kitchen machine."
2. Story: "Fucking animals, they are entirely uncompatible with our society, get them out of here."

Its the medias job to avoid that shit.



And there it is. Deal with it. Sexual assault and rape? Deal with it. Stonings? Deal with it. Backwards values from backwards cultures? Deal with it. Deal with all the problems being caused by open borders and mass immigration so long as I get to pat myself on the back over how good of a person I am.

You want to help people? Maybe start helping the women and Jews and gay people of Europe.
You already have to deal with it. There are german criminals, too. Thatswhy there is a criminal justice system in place.

I think I have mentioned it before, according to BKA crime statistic refugees are in line with crime rates of comparable groups of germans(low education, unemployed, male).
So, are we expecting the refugees to be more law abiding then we are?
 

Doczu

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You already have to deal with it. There are german criminals, too. Thatswhy there is a criminal justice system in place.

I think I have mentioned it before, according to BKA crime statistic refugees are in line with crime rates of comparable groups of germans(low education, unemployed, male).
So, are we expecting the refugees to be more law abiding then we are?
So going by your logic we have to deal with double the trouble (both from germans and refugees/immigrants) just because?
 

ClosingADoor

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Is it fearmongering when its an actual problem?
Its not just some "worried citizens" anymore.
From 2011 to 2015 the number of violent attacks on refugee houses has increased from 18 attacks in 2011 to 924 attacks in 2015.
Attack against refugees have quadrupled from 2014 to 2015.
It is an actual problem. Just like the immigration crisis is an actual problem. Yet you seem to want to silence one matter and not the other. You mention crimes again refugees, but seem happy to ignore crime caused by people abusing the current immigration process or immigrants who fail to integrate and participate in society in a productive way.

Crimes against refugees are terrible and the people responsible for that should be locked away for a long time. But that does not mean the problems the current immigration crisis is causing can be ignored and should not be reported.

Yeah, thats working like a charm...
But they also don't have to decide between letting people in or letting them die, because the refugees aren't landing at their coasts.
The current EU policies are at least partially responsible for that. The German government said "come here, you are all welcome" - or at least it sounded like that to the people coming - and that is why they make the journey and people die along the way.

This is not a choice between letting everybody in or letting them die. People from Algeria and Morocco aren't dying. There are refugee camps for Syrians which we can fund and then transfer people from in a safe way instead of letting them cross on crappy boats and funding smugglers.

Its the medias job to avoid that shit.
It is not. It is the medias job to report facts and give insight into important matters. It is not their job to censor information just because some may use it for political goals. Since when is it the medias responsibility to shape public opinion?

You already have to deal with it. There are german criminals, too. Thatswhy there is a criminal justice system in place.

I think I have mentioned it before, according to BKA crime statistic refugees are in line with crime rates of comparable groups of germans(low education, unemployed, male).
So, are we expecting the refugees to be more law abiding then we are?
Yet here you are advocating for growth of the lower class with low education, lots of unemployment and primarily young males. Why is that a smart idea?
 

leatherhat

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You already have to deal with it. There are german criminals, too. Thatswhy there is a criminal justice system in place.

I think I have mentioned it before, according to BKA crime statistic refugees are in line with crime rates of comparable groups of germans(low education, unemployed, male).
So, are we expecting the refugees to be more law abiding then we are?
Yes, an immigration system should benefit the host country so only law abiding people should be welcome. The leftist belief that unless a country has zero crime they can not refuse to take in criminals is completely insane.

Also every indicator of crime shows migrants and people from immigrant backgrounds committing more crime throughout Europe so don't try to play the "natives too!" card.
 

Metrotab

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So, are we expecting the refugees to be more law abiding then we are?
Yes, as a token of respect and gratitude for hosting them in time of need, I expect refugees not to rape and sexually assault women, attack transgender people, ... and that they accept to live with our classical liberal values while they are in our society.
 

1.21Gigawatts

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So going by your logic we have to deal with double the trouble (both from germans and refugees/immigrants) just because?
Its a simple "more people, more crime" thing.
Germany has 80mil people, add 1 mil and you'll obviously have more crime.
The point is that refugees aren't disproportionally more likely to commit crime.

And at the end of the day its germanys duty to help, even when its expensive and hard.
Germany partially responsible for the situation in the middle east(even though others are much more responsible).
Germany is able to help.(Germany has virtually no unemployment. A country like spain where the don't even have enough jobs for their own population can't take in hundreds of thousands of people, but Germany, amoung a few other EU countries with a robust economy, can.)
The US and others won't help in a meaningful way. US and Canada take a a few thousand refugees each, but thats more a symbolic act than actual help, because a few thousands are shit in face of the millions of people who where displaced.

Germany and Europe as a whole would lose a lot of its moral integrity if they close their boarder and act like they're not responsible.
 

Averon

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So women, LGBT people, and other groups should just deal with the increased hostility this mass immigration is producing? That is a horrible position to argue for.
 

Rocky_Balboa

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I think I have mentioned it before, according to BKA crime statistic refugees are in line with crime rates of comparable groups of germans(low education, unemployed, male).
So, are we expecting the refugees to be more law abiding then we are?
There is some research on this in Finland. When the factors (low education, unemploement etc.) were taken out, crime rates were still higher for immigrants (escpecially middle-east and africa). For sexual crimes, it was much higher.

This was only for Finland, but how things are going in Germany, it doesn't seem that much different.
 

ClosingADoor

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Germany and Europe as a whole would lose a lot of its moral integrity if they close their boarder and act like they're not responsible.
You seem to have a very black and white view about the issue. Better checks at borders does not equal not helping anyone.

You can not open your borders to everybody and expect it to work out.
 

Doczu

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Germany and Europe as a whole would lose a lot of its moral integrity if they close their boarder and act like they're not responsible.
Germany and Europe should find moral integrity with first taking care of their own people, than taking in anyone in fear of being called out as "the bad guys".
 

CenturionKei

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Really digusting the left is trying to justify these atrocities, because there "Minorities" or "there islamic, it's cultural differences", sweeping homosexuals, jews, and transgender people under the rug for some reason.
 

Chairman Yang

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There is some research on this in Finland. When the factors (low education, unemploement etc.) were taken out, crime rates were still higher for immigrants (escpecially middle-east and africa). For sexual crimes, it was much higher.

This was only for Finland, but how things are going in Germany, it doesn't seem that much different.
Do you have a link where I could find this info?
 

Chairmanchuck

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Jun 18, 2011
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Germany is able to help.(Germany has virtually no unemployment. A country like spain where the don't even have enough jobs for their own population can't take in hundreds of thousands of people, but Germany, amoung a few other EU countries with a robust economy, can.)
Of course germany has unemployment. While the official data is at about 2.8 unemployed people, you seem to forgot that after Schröder they changed it, so that "Maßnahmen" and "1€ jobs" dont count as being unemployed.
 

Nuu

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Nov 21, 2015
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Gigawatts just didn't sugar coat something that is common sense. As I said in a previous thread not all people from different places have the same cultures, not all people have the same tendency to pursue higher education or engage in crime. Whether people like it or not, there is a difference between these refugees and the native population when it comes to these things. The thing is you either accept these refugees and that there will be some baggage with them or don't. If you do accept them, how many of these refugees a country is willing to handle is up to the populace. Whether it is a strict policy of only those that are not at risk at all or a full open door policy.

This is always the elephant in the room whether it is due to Muslims that have tendency of religious fervor, Latinos who have a tendency to engage in crime and gangs, etc. What he is saying is that if you accept refugees then don't be surprised that crime and other factors increase.
 

quackamole

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Feb 24, 2015
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I would hate to live in a so called first world country where my recourse for getting stoned on the street for being who I am is to deal with it.

How about, I dunno, have the government protect the people? You know, probably the biggest reason a government is formed to do?
 

leatherhat

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Feb 7, 2011
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Germany and Europe as a whole would lose a lot of its moral integrity if they close their boarder and act like they're not responsible.
A government that allows its people to be victimized by outsiders so its leader can win a peace prize doesn't have any moral integrity.

Also its not a more people more crime thing. Studies have frequently shown that migrants and their descendants commit more crime even with economics factored in.
 

Sarek

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Aug 23, 2015
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Will be interesting to see how crazy this year will be. In 2015 the mass migration really only started in late(ish) summer, this time it will probably start as soon as the weather warms up. Of course now countries like Germany and Sweden are already stretched to the limit.
 

Agremont

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Jan 6, 2015
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So women, LGBT people, and other groups should just deal with the increased hostility this mass immigration is producing? That is a horrible position to argue for.
Well according to some feminists, white men are just as bad. They send bad emails to female writers for example.

The relativization from the feminist left has been pretty extreme here in Sweden.
 

El Topo

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Mar 21, 2011
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I see we have reached the point where people pretend to be well-versed when it comes to statistics. Finally I can dig out this link in German by BpB (Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung). Though obviously one should take the conclusions from this article (as usual) with a grain of salt. Simply put, one has to be very, very careful when it comes to statistics.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
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Its a simple "more people, more crime" thing.
Germany has 80mil people, add 1 mil and you'll obviously have more crime.
The point is that refugees aren't disproportionally more likely to commit crime.

And at the end of the day its germanys duty to help, even when its expensive and hard.
Germany partially responsible for the situation in the middle east(even though others are much more responsible).
Germany is able to help.(Germany has virtually no unemployment. A country like spain where the don't even have enough jobs for their own population can't take in hundreds of thousands of people, but Germany, amoung a few other EU countries with a robust economy, can.)
The US and others won't help in a meaningful way. US and Canada take a a few thousand refugees each, but thats more a symbolic act than actual help, because a few thousands are shit in face of the millions of people who where displaced.

Germany and Europe as a whole would lose a lot of its moral integrity if they close their boarder and act like they're not responsible.
This is political naivety of the worst kind. I can't believe that someone after seeing the failure of the multicultural experiments of the past decades and the ongoing migrant crisis (with reports of rapes, harassment of gay and trans gendered people, crime, terrorism, etc) will keep his/her head in the sand and wants to invite even more people because otherwise "Germany/Europe would lose its moral integrity.

What has to happen before you get some common sense in your head and begin to realize its far, far better to help people in the region? Better for us, better for them?
 

Chairmanchuck

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Jun 18, 2011
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I see we have reached the point where people pretend to be well-versed when it comes to statistics. Finally I can dig out this link in German by BpB (Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung). Though obviously one should take the conclusions from this article (as usual) with a grain of salt.

54 Prozent der in Deutschland lebenden Einwanderer und ihrer Nachkommen sind deutsche Staatsangehörige, unter anderem durch Einbürgerung, (Spät-)Aussiedlerstatus und Geburt in Deutschland, [3] sie werden somit bei Kriminalitätsverdacht in der Kategorie "Deutsch" erfasst.
So immigrants who lived here long enough to get the citizen status are counted as german.
 

Drencrom

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Aug 17, 2011
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Well according to some feminists, white men are just as bad. They send bad emails to female writers for example.

The relativization from the feminist left has been pretty extreme here in Sweden.
The feminist left here is the epitome of "regressive left" when it comes to migration.
 

El Topo

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Mar 21, 2011
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So immigrants who lived here long enough to get the citizen status are counted as german.
One of the reasons this discussion is complicated. The lines that follow are important and elaborate some of the problems, namely that simply looking at crimes by foreigners is not sufficient for the general investigation of crimes by people that have a migrational background. For example, I could simply point at studies that come to the conclusion that immigrants are (when context such as social status is factored in) less likely to be criminal. I could just throw this report at you, but that alone doesn't help a meaningful discussion.
 

Chairmanchuck

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Jun 18, 2011
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One of the reasons this discussion is complicated. The lines that follow are important and elaborate some of the problems.
Thats why it is kinda hard when people say "but the statistics say its not that bad/its about the same."

If some afghan couple has a child here, the child automatically is a german citizen, even when the whole family doesnt talk german.
During primary school a lot of classmates were turkish, afghan, morrocan etc. and a lot of the parents were considered german citizens but couldnt talk german. It was really easy in the 90s to get the required language certificate even if you couldnt really talk.
 

Izuna

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Some of the frustration doesn't come from a place of racism and fascism -- There is a legitimate concern with how to integrate these refugees. You can be both overly PC and overly generalising.

I think a possible solution is to break them up such that they have opportunity to absorb new culture as opposed to sticking together so they can have their own opinions bundle up and feel like they shouldn't have to as much as they are expected to.

It's like international students all sticking together, it's hard to remove their accent. Segregating the refugees in "refugee hotspots" is a terrible idea.
 
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