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News Drama God of War Ragnarok Writer Champions Angrboda as Part of "Our own spin" on Norse mythology

VanEs

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betrayal

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Don't know if he's trolling, but the tweet sums up today's society very well.

It doesn't matter if you yourself are black, gay, asian, trans, whatever. You are a racist and homohpobe, although it is never about skin color, gender or sexual orientation, but pandering.
 
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Kimahri

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According to lore, paintings and so on, he's white. Isn't your issue regarding your heritage? You don't care about the inconsistancies regarding Greek Mythology, only the Norse?
I don't see any inconsistencies with Kratos. See my edit to the post you quoted.

I kinda still think he looks greek though. Which is what the lore says. He just looks very tanned. Which would be natural. Do you have any source on thay? I'd be curious, but I'm not gonna dig out my PS2 to find out, heh.
 
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Lanrutcon

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I'm willing to give the game the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sure the race of black giants will feature in the game, and dispel any notions of tokenism. They've probably put a lot of effort into her backstory, that of her people and how it fits into the setting. This will probably be a refreshing new take on what is really a very played out setting. I wonder what they're called? what their realm is like? I'm excited to learn all these things and so much more, both leading up to the game's release and prominently in the game itself.

GoW:R, bring on that new spin. My body is ready.
 
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Black_Stride

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In Norse mythology are there any Black figures?

Theres near literally no actual descriptions of many characters physical appearance in norse mythology. Even the whole tattoos thing is something not in the original mythos.
So we dont know who is black, white, green, bleue, purple or whatever.

But Angrboda wasn't a viking. She was Jotun, a people mostly known for living in their own areas, mainly deep in the mountains, not for travelling.

What did Jotun look like?
 
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OsirisBlack

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My only problem with this is that it would never fly switching a black character or god for a white person, i cant even imagine how freaked out the same people who did this would be.

i honestly dont care about this, only the subtle agenda that you can do this to white characters but when its the other way around they call it white washing
It’s done all the time in reverse as well passion of the Christ, gods of Egypt, the Ten Commandments there are a million more recent examples but let’s not act like this hasn’t been going on in Hollywood forever. The last samurai, the Great Wall the list is pretty infinite.
 

Dr. Suchong

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It seems to me that in the infancy of promoting diversity, any attempt to have a poc in a significant role in film/video games/ t.v is, for a time, going to been seen by the more cynical among us as "Tokenised" or "Pandering"
How do we tell which offerings offer real sincerity to the cause, and which are shamelessly trying to score points?
 

OsirisBlack

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The irony when you try to set up an imagery outrage and end up being the racist by its own logic lol.

The shit is woke though. Its hilarious and sad to see "artists" again and again putting their "diversity" view on western mythology and at the same time being scared about doing it with any other mythology.

Imagine Allah or Muhammed being white in the next Assassins Creed.
Imagine Moses Muhammad allah and Jesus not being white and looking like they are described in the source material.
 

FunkMiller

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It seems to me that in the infancy of promoting diversity, any attempt to have a poc in a significant role in film/video games/ t.v is, for a time, going to been seen by the more cynical among us as "Tokenised" or "Pandering"
How do we tell which offerings offer real sincerity to the cause, and which are shamelessly trying to score points?

If it makes sense within the confines of the story being told: sincere.

If it’s crowbarred into an existing narrative for no good story reason, or is put into a new narrative with no good reason: pandering wokeness.

The worst thing about this thread is that no one knows how her skin colour reflects her race and background within the fiction of God Of War, so all the whiners in here just come across as massive racist idiots.

It’s literally “I don’t like black people in this game I don’t know the story of yet” and it’s fucking pathetic.
 
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Kimahri

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Theres near literally no actual descriptions of many characters physical appearance in norse mythology. Even the whole tattoos thing is something not in the original mythos.
So we dont know who is black, white, green, bleue, purple or whatever.



What did Jotun look like?
Anything from monsters to vixens.

My problem isn't with color. It's that they take other, well known ethnicities and insert them into places they don't naturally occur, at least without some explanation.

Here's what I think they should do instead. Cook up their own ethnicities. Like the drow. Makes no sense their skin is black due to them always being in the dark and therefore their skin should be pale, but it still works.

Create something else. Other hues, other facial features. Design something new. They do it all the time, their job is to be creative.

For the record, I wouldn't want to see white people in that open world rpg about american natives that I'm hopelessly waiting for either. Or any other era they don't belong in. I didn't see Gods of Egypt due to the stupid casting, for example.

A lot of people in here go "ya'll are okay when it's whitewashing" but no, I'm really not.
 

DeepEnigma

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It’s done all the time in reverse as well passion of the Christ, gods of Egypt, the Ten Commandments there are a million more recent examples but let’s not act like this hasn’t been going on in Hollywood forever. The last samurai, the Great Wall the list is pretty infinite.
Agreed, and they all have gotten criticized for "white washing" without being called racists. That is the point many here are making, me thinks.

I personally won't lose sleep over this, and will be playing the game to see how it all ties in, but lets not pretend there isn't two different standards in the meta conversations of pop culture and the current society with the loudest microphones at the moment when it comes to the hypocritical lines in the sand.
 
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rofif

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I don't see what's the big deal?
It's a mythology fantasy game. Black people are not xxi invention lol
 

Dr. Suchong

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If it makes sense within the confines of the story being told: sincere.

If it’s crowbarred into an existing narrative for no good story reason, or is put into a new narrative with no good reason: pandering wokeness.

The worst thing about this thread is that no one knows how her skin colour reflects her race and background within the fiction of God Of War, so all the whiners in here just come across as massive racist idiots.

It’s literally “I don’t like black people in this game I don’t know the story of yet” and it’s fucking pathetic.
Agreed.
Hopefully as the thread progresses, more will become enlightened.
Edit: "Enlightened" sounds a bit sniffy sorry.
I must admit, my knowledge of the GOW fiction probably ends at around GOW 3 and even that's a bit hazy.
 
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Black_Stride

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Anything from monsters to vixens.

My problem isn't with color. It's that they take other, well known ethnicities and insert them into places they don't naturally occur, at least without some explanation.

Here's what I think they should do instead. Cook up their own ethnicities. Like the drow. Makes no sense their skin is black due to them always being in the dark and therefore their skin should be pale, but it still works.

Create something else. Other hues, other facial features. Design something new. They do it all the time, their job is to be creative.

For the record, I wouldn't want to see white people in that open world rpg about american natives that I'm hopelessly waiting for either. Or any other era they don't belong in. I didn't see Gods of Egypt due to the stupid casting, for example.

A lot of people in here go "ya'll are okay when it's whitewashing" but no, I'm really not.

What color were the vixens?
Rather ethnicities...since you are so sure it wasnt black.
 
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OsirisBlack

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Agreed, and they all have gotten criticized for "white washing" without being called racists. That is the point many here are making, me thinks.

I personally won't lose sleep over this, and will be playing the game to see how it all ties in, but lets not pretend there isn't two different standards in the meta conversations of pop culture and the current society with the loudest microphones at the moment when it comes to the hypocritical lines in the sand.
I do agree with some of this but the whole everything is black or black is being forced is a false narrative. Meanwhile every time I turn on the television their is some boy with two fathers or some girl with two mothers in every commercial. The loudest microphone is multi colored … in case you haven’t noticed
 

VAVA Mk2

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Fucking woke culture needs to die. Inclusion for the sake of inclusion even when it makes no sense. Let's have an Assassin's Creed game set in Africa somewhere and throw and Eskimo in so they can feel included too.
 

imissweed

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This subject here is just the same as it would be had they shoehorned an out of place change into another culture's mythology. South or East Asian gods? A white, western god with all the facial features is going to be out of place, even if there's a green god in there. Same for throwing a distinctly Native American character among a group of African gods. It's easy to see why people might think it might be an out of place change. I get that the framework allows for it, but accents are just accents (we also hear the voices in our relevant languages) and a blue character is easily explained when the main character is forever cursed to be ash white from the ashes of his wife and child.

Either way, I'm going to wait and see if there's any relevance or significance to the change before I pass judgement.

For those that think this backlash is borne out of intolerance or is otherwise unjustified, consider that people might not be able to put their finger on why it seems out of place.
I
Agreed that people shouldn't really care about this stuff but it's understandable though, considering how many creative decisions prioritise diversity for the sake of diversity.

My first question when seeing her was "is she hinting at another pantheon of gods like Egyptians or is she there for the PC crowd" it's sad that thought even crosses our minds tbh.

But his messaging is pretty clear and pretty damn disingenuous tbf. They did 4 games in greek mythology, doing there 'own take' yet everyone managed to be racially appropriate to the region and the mythology. It's not a coincidence for them to make this kind of move in 2021.

Personally it has zero impact for my anticipation for the game as the first was a masterpiece.
Just to give the middle finger to that guy and all the coastal elites at SSM i will be giving my business to eBay or gamestop and buying used so none of my 70 dollars funds these virtue signaling fart smelling assholes!!

I now officially hate SSM for disrespecting black people and making them the root of all evil. That's NOT how you do it boys and gals.
 

Black_Stride

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Fucking woke culture needs to die. Inclusion for the sake of inclusion even when it makes no sense. Let's have an Assassin's Creed game set in Africa somewhere and throw and Eskimo in so they can feel included too.

Which Edda describes what Angrboda looks like or her ethnicity so I too can be upset that they have change her ethnicity for inclusivity's sake.
 
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Kimahri

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What color were the vixens?
Rather ethnicities...since you are so sure it wasnt black.

Good point, I guess we should just continue whitewashing egyptian gods while we're at it then, shall we?

I mean, do we really know what skin color they had?

I think this is an interesting subject worthy of discussion. You don't. You just wanna throw out questions you think are very clever, but really aren't, so I won't bother.
 

Bakkus

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Don't see why this is a problem, it won't suddenly make the game an awful one and at the end of the day it's fantasy. The nay-sayers here would have no issue if the character was green or blue as opposed to black.

I totally get that in some cases tokenism is a real issue, and I have called it out myself when it was as such. But in a fantasy game where you play as a God fighting Dragons and other magical entities it makes no sense to be so pent up by this minor inclusion.
If white people were present in an African , Asian or native american folklore setting, there would be outrage.
 

Black_Stride

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Good point, I guess we should just continue whitewashing egyptian gods while we're at it then, shall we?

I mean, do we really know what skin color they had?

I think this is an interesting subject worthy of discussion. You don't. You just wanna throw out questions you think are very clever, but really aren't, so I won't bother.

Whitewash all the Egyptian gods if you want im not going to bitch about it.
They were deitys with dog, croc or bird like faces....id rather have a white or brown dog than a black one.
I do like Ravens so maybe we can keep Horus black?
Osiris might as well be green, his glyphs had him looking green
But the rest make them white as snow if need be.


P.S We have actual Hieroglyphs of Egyptians gods....not a bunch of books just talking about them without ever actually describing them.
So we have a good idea what they "supposedly" looked like.
 

yurinka

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I don't see anything wrong in what he said. Norse mythology is not very well documented and Angrboda has given birth giant snake and Wolves. What difference her skin color makes?

Why is this so offensive to some people? That character looks so good when it turned up at the end of the trailer. All those asking if they will change colour of the character if it was Egypt mythology is just looking for false equivalency.
She looks good and would be a good fit for their next game if they move to Egiptian mithology, it's only that seems out of place in the Norse mithology and people it's getting tired of forced tokenism.

Being in the Norse mithology people would expect white blond/red/brown/black haired people, maybe someone with slighly darker skin tone. If they had black people there in the nordic bronze age or whenever they created this mythology it would be pretty rare. But well, it's only a fictional game, the devs obviously are free to do whatever they want with their game in the same way players are free to like or dislike it.
 

Derift

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Only one group of people are annoyed at this... if this char was blue no one would give a shit but she's black so.... outrage...
 
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Business

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Which Edda describes what Angrboda looks like or her ethnicity so I too can be upset that they have change her ethnicity for inclusivity's sake.

You are seriously suggesting Norse mythology doesn't explicitly describe the ethnicity of its pantheon and so we don't know with certainty if their human representation should be that of a European, African, Malayan or Aboriginal Australian, with all of them having a chance?
 

Phase

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I won't sugarcoat. If you haven't noticed, there is a trend going around the world at the moment of erasing white people's culture. This specific instance of pandering is only tangentially related (and unimportant on its own), but conforms to the ideological views being taught and pushed in every nook and cranny in our society (white guilt, etc.).

When you see people upset about similar issues, IMO it all stems from this push to erase/replace white people in practically everything. Why is it okay to replace all white people with POC? Why is it not okay to do the opposite? Agendas, agendas. Many are tired/annoyed/upset about it.

That's why whenever you see a new release and they make a point to show their "diversity" people roll their eyes. Companies don't care about diversity, they care about sales. It's just more virtue signaling.
 

VanEs

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It seems to me that in the infancy of promoting diversity, any attempt to have a poc in a significant role in film/video games/ t.v is, for a time, going to been seen by the more cynical among us as "Tokenised" or "Pandering"

I don't fully agree with this. The Expanse (one of my favorite tv shows) is comprised of poc in significant roles and done right. It makes sense, and it respects the book as well. A clear example of diversity done well and all the better for it.

How do we tell which offerings offer real sincerity to the cause, and which are shamelessly trying to score points?

Anything looking ridiculously out of place would be pretty obvious. Book adaptations that do lazy race/gender swaps for no reason. Those sorta things set off alarms for me.

In the end it's nothing more than an annoyance, sure, but we should be able to express those annoyances and call them out.
 

CheeseCake

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So many clowns on here.
I wish the rumours about Atreus being gay were true...
The meltdown from the incels in this sub would be glorious
.
Television Popcorn GIF by SpongeBob SquarePants
 

CheeseCake

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I won't sugarcoat. If you haven't noticed, there is a trend going around the world at the moment of erasing white people's culture. This specific instance of pandering is only tangentially related (and unimportant on its own), but conforms to the ideological views being taught and pushed in every nook and cranny in our society (white guilt, etc.).

When you see people upset about similar issues, IMO it all stems from this push to erase/replace white people in practically everything. Why is it okay to replace all white people with POC? Why is it not okay to do the opposite? Agendas, agendas. Many are tired/annoyed/upset about it.

That's why whenever you see a new release and they make a point to show their "diversity" people roll their eyes. Companies don't care about diversity, they care about sales. It's just more virtue signaling.

 
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strange headache

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I think this has less to do with racism, but with Americans imposing yet again their societal problems onto foreign cultural heritages. Why should the Norse pantheon be any more diverse than let's say Wakanda or African mythology?

These tales came from a time before globalism and multiculturalism and are an intrinsic part of the common ancestry and traditions of different ethnic groups. As such, they are somewhat sacrosanct and should certainly not be abused for mere tokenism, virtue signaling and political messaging. Folklore transcends politics as it lets people identify with each other across partisan lines and should never be politicized like that. I am fine that these stories are updated to fit modern standards, but one should always be aware that doing so is a delicate task.

Changing the mere skin color of a mythological character for diversity's sake would imply that said mythology is deeply flawed and not diverse enough, when Norse mythology is brimming with so many different personalities and worldviews. What value does adding a skin color to these stories create? Does it enrich that particular mythology in any way? Not really, all it does is poison these timeless tales with trendy societal issues from the USA because that country is absolutely obsessed with race. Non-Americans are frikkin' tired of all this race bullcrap that amounts to absolutely f*ck all, except more division, unnecessary labels and stereotyped thinking.

It is such an americocentric perspective that many people from outside can only shake their heads at it in disbelief, but then to be also labeled a "racist" for simply refusing to let such narrow-minded hot button issues subvert one's cultural heritage that has nothing to do with America's current issues is simply beyond stupid. What's racist is thinking that the whole world is the same as America and that everybody else should view the world as Americans do and also share in their flimsy soup-du-jour moral principles that get dictated by their entertainment industry and social media.

Everybody in this thread, no matter which side they stand on concerning this controversy, have played many many games with protagonists from different ethical groups and cultural backgrounds. I'm sure all of us have played and enjoyed games with black/white/whatever protagonists and nobody had even the slightest issue with it. Simply dehumanizing the "other side" by lazily labeling them with all sorts of horrible things because you refuse to engage with them in an honest manner is exactly what racists would do.
 
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I won't sugarcoat. If you haven't noticed, there is a trend going around the world at the moment of erasing white people's culture. This specific instance of pandering is only tangentially related (and unimportant on its own), but conforms to the ideological views being taught and pushed in every nook and cranny in our society (white guilt, etc.).

When you see people upset about similar issues, IMO it all stems from this push to erase/replace white people in practically everything. Why is it okay to replace all white people with POC? Why is it not okay to do the opposite? Agendas, agendas. Many are tired/annoyed/upset about it.

That's why whenever you see a new release and they make a point to show their "diversity" people roll their eyes. Companies don't care about diversity, they care about sales. It's just more virtue signaling.
What is this horrible worldwide erasure of white people culture you speak of? You mean like how places stopped celebrating Columbus Day and instead celebrate Indigenous People's Day?
 

Kenpachii

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Lol the only racist is jaffe himself.

Anyway can't blame them for adding her for the simple fact to get woke crowd of there back and avoid bad reviews pushing by racist reviewers.

I sitll think she has deeper roots in the story with the solution for them moving into Egypt story wise.
 
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Kamina

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Artistic choice and fantasy, blablabla…
It is still weird that a norse character is a dread-locked black person, and this is undoubtedly due to trying to get media woke points.
End of story.

Now we can accept this petty attempt for what it is, ignore it and enjoy the game when it comes, or we can whine about it and sour our own experience.
 

Business

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Let's see, if it was really about racist people not wanting black people in videogames, well, we would have this thread for every videogame where there is a black guy. Do we have it? No. Ok, so probably not that.

What is it then?

Well maybe it's that people cares about the lore in their games. If you are setting a game in Norse mythology, by default you'll expect the pantheon to look white. Now of course, this is fantasy, the game creators can do whatever with their game, yes we all know and acknowledge that, yes Kratos is a fictional character they inserted in Greek mythology and now into Norse mythology, yes. But, there's an explanation for that in the previous games, and we buy it. So, instead of tweetting bs and calling people racist, I think it would be better if you go ahead and tell your audience that cares about your game, your lore and your franchise, why is this, how this character ended up here, maybe comes from another mythology just like Kratos, maybe whatever, you are the writer, if your story is decent maybe people will buy it (or at least say there will be one). Otherwise, people sees this and rolls their eyes because it just looks like an empty attempt to pander to the American public with your American view of what diversity is. People are not saying what the hell is this because the character is black, but because a priori it just doesn't fit the setting, in the same way as if I play a game with a 14th century Inca setting and their god looks Russian, even if I'm an Inca boy riding a flying unicorn llama in a fantasy world, the Russian looking god will look kinda out of place in the narrative and the writers better explain why is this.
 
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Dr. Suchong

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I don't fully agree with this. The Expanse (one of my favorite tv shows) is comprised of poc in significant roles and done right. It makes sense, and it respects the book as well. A clear example of diversity done well and all the better for it.



Anything looking ridiculously out of place would be pretty obvious. Book adaptations that do lazy race/gender swaps for no reason. Those sorta things set off alarms for me.

In the end it's nothing more than an annoyance, sure, but we should be able to express those annoyances and call them out.
I must admit I am not aware of The Expanse, and it's good to know that such a show exists.
There just needs to be more genuine diversity obviously.
Then we can do away with this "Tokenism and "Pandering" rhetoric :messenger_winking:(y)
 
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llOswaldll

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Rumour that she will be the link to Egypt, a giantess brought over by Tyr. Kratos will be severely injured at the end and she will take him to see Horus in the Egypt arc.
If she was from the upper class of (ancient) Egypt shed be a lot lighter, think more middle eastern looking

Having somebody like Cleopatra would be kinda cool
 
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Danjin44

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One side complain because they put sexy design in games and other side complain because they put black character on games.....

For love of GOD


If devs loose their freedom to design their own game however they want then this industry is FUCKED!!!!
 

Kimahri

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Rumour that she will be the link to Egypt, a giantess brought over by Tyr. Kratos will be severely injured at the end and she will take him to see Horus in the Egypt arc.
That is interesting, but I'm just really wondering where Fenris, Midgardsormr and Hel are in all of this. I mean, wasn't the wyrm in the first game? Angrboda gave birth to that thing, and it looks like it's been growing for years (it's quite large, even with it's fast growth), while she looks like she's a teenager.

How old was she when she was with Loki? Or is the some everyoung kinda thing?

I feel they could have waited a bit with that reveal. Too many questions, lol.
Whitewash all the Egyptian gods if you want im not going to bitch about it.
They were deitys with dog, croc or bird like faces....id rather have a white or brown dog than a black one.
I do like Ravens so maybe we can keep Horus black?
Osiris might as well be green, his glyphs had him looking green
But the rest make them white as snow if need be.


P.S We have actual Hieroglyphs of Egyptians gods....not a bunch of books just talking about them without ever actually describing them.
So we have a good idea what they "supposedly" looked like.
Travis Fimmel Vikings GIF
 

Yoboman

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Im sure everyone wanted to cancel Thor for having a black guy in Norse mythology too, right?
 
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