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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

GymWolf

Member
How can you say that when we all can clearly see there are materials on that character model not responding to light in that gif man?
I think that we have to wait the full game to judge the lights, but from the pics i saw of clide, hif face and general model is less detailed than a random npc in hfw.

how lights react is only part of what make a character realistic, hfw is pretty much considered the game with the best human models out there and the level of detail is basically the same for aloy and 90% of the npcs with even a single line of dialogue.

Sorry but this stuff doesn't cut quite as deep as tlou remake, hfw and the best models in the business

final-fantasy-16-characters-cidolfus.jpg

clive-rosfield-final-fantasy-xvi-awakening-video-game-wallpaper-3554x1999-68943_53.jpg



Hairs look nice, i give you that.
 
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Lethal01

Member
I think that we have to wait the full game to judge the lights, but from the pics i saw of clide, hif face and general model is less detailed than a random npc in hfw.

how lights react is only part of what make a character realistic, hfw is pretty much considered the game with the best human models out there and the level of detail is basically the same for aloy and 90% of the npcs with even a single line of dialogue.

Sorry but this stuff doesn't cut quite as deep as tlou remake, hfw and the best models in the business

final-fantasy-16-characters-cidolfus.jpg

clive-rosfield-final-fantasy-xvi-awakening-video-game-wallpaper-3554x1999-68943_53.jpg



Hairs look nice, i give you that.
The faces are mostly "too perfect" but that's kidna the point, since no matter what they say it's still an anime game with anime designs.
 

GymWolf

Member
The faces are mostly "too perfect" but that's kidna the point, since no matter what they say it's still an anime game with anime designs.
Since they spoke about being more adult etc. i thought they were aiming for a more realistic style.

It kinda whiplash with a game of thrones tone if all the charas look like fucking korean pop singers and models with perfect faces...
 
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I think that we have to wait the full game to judge the lights, but from the pics i saw of clide, hif face and general model is less detailed than a random npc in hfw.

how lights react is only part of what make a character realistic, hfw is pretty much considered the game with the best human models out there and the level of detail is basically the same for aloy and 90% of the npcs with even a single line of dialogue.

Sorry but this stuff doesn't cut quite as deep as tlou remake, hfw and the best models in the business

final-fantasy-16-characters-cidolfus.jpg

clive-rosfield-final-fantasy-xvi-awakening-video-game-wallpaper-3554x1999-68943_53.jpg



Hairs look nice, i give you that.
You’re talking about this Tlou Remake game, the one built all the way from the ground up on the PS5?

4bmp0pw.jpg

Art is only part of what makes a character realistic.
 

GymWolf

Member
You’re talking about this Tlou Remake game, the one built all the way from the ground up on the PS5?

4bmp0pw.jpg

Art is only part of what makes a character realistic.
And yet, it still looks less than a doll than ff16 protagonist.

Let's wait for the final game to release so we can judge ingame models flaws in that one aswell (althought you can already see the flaws in the 2 pics i posted)


And people around here can tell you that i'm far from the biggest fan of that lazy ass remake.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
And yet, it still looks less than a doll than ff16 protagonist.

Let's wait for the final game to release so we can judge ingame models flaws in that one aswell (althought you can already see the flaws in the 2 pics i posted)


And people around here can tell you that i'm far from the biggest fan of that lazy ass remake.
Nah. I can confirm that Gymwolf is a secret tlou remake fan. Him and ChiefDada send each other part 1 screenshots over Snapchat.
 

CGNoire

Member
Im all for specialization but its clear that these first parties with their specialized tools like Decima and ND and SSM's engines are not able to keep up with what Epic has been doing. I keep bringing up HFW and GOW Ragnorak and how they took 4.5-5 years to make what are essentially straight sequels with little to no new innovations, gameplay enhancements or simulations thrown in. Why did they take so long to make? Had they invested in these technologies like Epic has been doing for the last 5 years, they wouldve been able to get these games out much faster in the long run.

I love GoT, TLOU2, GOW, DS and HZD, but I also want these legendary AAA devs to actually innovate and get us next gen stuff, and if they are being held back by their engineering teams who simply cant introduce these new fluid simulations, nanite, lumens and chaos physics for the developers and artists in time then let's go ahead and get on UE5.

That said, I see that Epic has increased their fee for 5% to 12% of overall revenue so yeah, i think some publishers would balk at that high price and we will continue to see devs use their internal engines and tools.
Jesus thats a steep price increase. Not too happy about that. That sucks for indies.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Jesus thats a steep price increase. Not too happy about that. That sucks for indies.
Indies will be fine. Iirc epic doesn’t change anything for the first million for indies. This will hurt big games like hogwarts that make $850 million in a week and have to give up $150 million to epic just to license an engine.

Remember UE3 was like 250k to a million and it was considered too expensive.
 

CGNoire

Member
Indies will be fine. Iirc epic doesn’t change anything for the first million for indies. This will hurt big games like hogwarts that make $850 million in a week and have to give up $150 million to epic just to license an engine.

Remember UE3 was like 250k to a million and it was considered too expensive.
It adds up. Its still the only real choice really for people with my tastes but after developing a number of prototypes i was hoping to refine into a game one day its kind of a kick in the nuts. Although if any engine deserves it it this one.
 

CamHostage

Member
I downloaded the fortnite editor to play the Mech demo but UE5 keeps crashing every time i boot it up. anyone here have any luck? I want to see this demo in 4k.



Uh, wouldn't you just play it in Fortnite?

I don't think this Mech demo came out, actually It's not in the Fortnite Discover menu, and the developers say it was created with UEFN and that UEFN was out today but not that this demo is out with it. (They were also nervous about crashing or not succeeding at their live demo, which indicates that it's not "done" even though it works.) These are the only ones the promoted as being available today:

DESERTED: DOMINATION https://www.fortnite.com/creative/island-codes/9836-7381-5978
FOREST GUARDIAN https://www.fortnite.com/creative/island-codes/0348-4483-3263
THE SPACE INSIDE https://www.fortnite.com/creative/island-codes/8035-1519-2959
 

CamHostage

Member
Im all for specialization but its clear that these first parties with their specialized tools like Decima and ND and SSM's engines are not able to keep up with what Epic has been doing. I keep bringing up HFW and GOW Ragnorak and how they took 4.5-5 years to make what are essentially straight sequels with little to no new innovations, gameplay enhancements or simulations thrown in.

...As opposed to all of the next-generation game releases we have all played using Unreal Engine 5, such as the Fortnite Season 4, and the Matrix demo and... Fortnite Season 4 Chapter 2.

Concern makes sense that this may be just too hard/expensive as the bar raises to do it all in-house (...although no developer really does,) but what Epic Games is doing with UE5 isn't specifically original. Everybody making an engine is going in this direction of procedural assets and virtualized geometry and global illumination and what have you, using industry papers and delivered hardware features to experiment with what will eventually become standard practice. Epic got there first, true, because they've had the money and force of need to provide it, (and Epic can also use the huge network of third-party plug-in and tool providers and still say it's "in Unreal Engine",) but they're not necessarily lightyears ahead of everybody. UE5 was launched as a work in progress, and its main delivered executable outside of the Unreal Editor development tool has been the two Fortnite releases as well as the Matrix model city and short play bit (which was still a demo, and took 13 studios over a year to make.)

I mentioned in the State of Unreal Showcase thread that our equilibrium was all shaken up by the May 2020 UE5 reveal (just 6 months before the console release) because we thought we were at the starting line of that next-gen quality, but the reality of the timeline was that the reveal was showing us the training stages that we usually don't see and that the actual tools (and availability to pro developers) was a ways off from starting; things would have been different too had the 2021 games like Horizon FW and Forspoken and maybe GoW come out as planned without COVID (though that would have left the actual 2022 crop looking even more dire, but maybe more ambitious productions would have fit into the schedule better had developer work management not gotten so complicated.)

I'm worried and frustrated about the state of games on these new consoles too (and I'm still not sure what to think of Forza, which seemed like a clear inflection point; I also don't know or trust what's going on with Avatar,) but I've tried to accept that, as I've said a few times, it's an unfortunate matter of timing that made this gen start so sucky. The features which would really make a difference weren't ready for the console launches, and unlike in the past where the brute force of massively more powerful hardware would power cool shit into existence, a lot of the emerging tech is accomplished more by studying physical properties and developing intricate simulation systems. You have more headroom and more runway with these new boxes, but it's still hard work that the computer can't do for you (...unless you literally have it do it for you, with procedural systems and ML trainers, but that's all got to get built by hand too before the computer can take over.
 
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Hunnybun

Member
Im all for specialization but its clear that these first parties with their specialized tools like Decima and ND and SSM's engines are not able to keep up with what Epic has been doing. I keep bringing up HFW and GOW Ragnorak and how they took 4.5-5 years to make what are essentially straight sequels with little to no new innovations, gameplay enhancements or simulations thrown in. Why did they take so long to make? Had they invested in these technologies like Epic has been doing for the last 5 years, they wouldve been able to get these games out much faster in the long run.

I love GoT, TLOU2, GOW, DS and HZD, but I also want these legendary AAA devs to actually innovate and get us next gen stuff, and if they are being held back by their engineering teams who simply cant introduce these new fluid simulations, nanite, lumens and chaos physics for the developers and artists in time then let's go ahead and get on UE5.

That said, I see that Epic has increased their fee for 5% to 12% of overall revenue so yeah, i think some publishers would balk at that high price and we will continue to see devs use their internal engines and tools.

I think you misunderstood? I was referring to the specialisation of Unreal 5, which just seems to be a generation ahead of what even the best studios have come up with.

I hope I'm wrong but we've seen no sign of anything competitive so far.
 

H . R . 2

Member
SH2 remake should have interactive fog aswell.

bb0d8262cb47a6237bcc2b31171105074183b3d9-scaled.jpg

silent-hill-2-remake-header.jpeg

we'll find out soon :

Silent Hill 2 is technically ready. It does not mean that the game is finished, but we are close,”
“However, the issue of the release schedule lies with our partners, what the promotion will look like and when the title will debut is not directly in our hands.”

-Bloober Team CEO Piotr Babieno, 22nd, Mar. 2023

I hope I'm wrong but we've seen no sign of anything competitive so far.
my guess is E3 or Sony's Showcase
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
...As opposed to all of the next-generation game releases we have all played using Unreal Engine 5, such as the Fortnite Season 4, and the Matrix demo and... Fortnite Season 4 Chapter 2.

It is an issue that development may be just too hard to do it all in-house (...although no developer really does,) but what Epic Games is doing with UE5 isn't specifically original. Everybody making an engine is going in this direction of procedural assets and virtualized geometry and global illumination and what have you, using industry papers and delivered hardware features to experiment with what will eventually become standard practice. Epic got there first, true, because they've had the money and force of need to provide it, (and Epic can also use the huge network of third-party plug-in and tool providers and still say it's "in Unreal Engine",) but they're not necessarily lightyears ahead of everybody. UE5 was launched as a work in progress, and its main delivered executable outside of the Unreal Editor development tool has been the two Fortnite releases as well as the Matrix model city and short play bit (which was still a demo, and took 13 studios over a year to make.)

I mentioned in the State of Unreal Showcase thread that our equilibrium was all shaken up by the May 2020 UE5 reveal (just 6 months before the console release) because we thought we were at the starting line of that next-gen quality, but the reality of the timeline was that the reveal was showing us the training stages that we usually don't see and that the actual tools (and availability to pro developers) was a ways off from starting; things would have been different too had the 2021 games like Horizon FW and Forspoken and maybe GoW come out as planned without COVID (though that would have left the actual 2022 crop looking even more dire, but maybe more ambitious productions would have fit into the schedule better had developer work management not gotten so complicated.)

I'm worried and frustrated about the state of games on these new consoles too (and I'm still not sure what to think of Forza, which seemed like a clear inflection point; I also don't know or trust what's going on with Avatar,) but I've tried to accept that, as I've said a few times, it's an unfortunate matter of timing that made this gen start so sucky. The features which would really make a difference weren't ready for the console launches, and unlike in the past where the brute force of massively more powerful hardware would power cool shit into existence, a lot of the emerging tech is accomplished more by studying physical properties and developing intricate simulation systems. You have more headroom and more runway with these new boxes, but it's still hard work that the computer can't do for you (...unless you literally have it do it for you, with procedural systems and ML trainers, but that's all got to get built by hand too before the computer can take over.
But Unreal Engine 4 more or less followed the same curve. It wasnt ready by the time the consoles launched and their realtime GI support was straight up taken out. Batman AK in 2015 used UE3 instead of UE4 because UE4 wasnt ready, and it STILL looked excellent.

Point is that third party engines and devs are never ready on time. This is where first party devs come in. KZSF, DriveClub, Infamous, Ryse, Sunset, Forza all looked next gen the day they were revealed and they all released either at launch or within the year. They didnt need UE4. They developed their tech inhouse and managed to give it a big visual upgrade.

I can post dozens of UE4 videos that show a clear leap over what these so-called AAA devs have given us. You dont need UE5 to push visuals, but it seems Epic is the only one showing us whats possible in the future. The niagara simulation stuff that they showed around 3PM EST was absolutely amazing. this is the kind of stuff first parties shouldve been researching in 2017 when Cerny was going around pitching his idea for the PS5. Instead they wasted the last five years making last gen stuff like GOW, HFW, GT7 and TLOU remake. now they can either start researching this stuff or just license UE5. If they license UE5, they might actually get a game out before 2026. Otherwise we are looking at 2028 or later before we see any of this advnaced simulation stuff make it into games.
 

CamHostage

Member
Point is that third party engines and devs are never ready on time. This is where first party devs come in. KZSF, DriveClub, Infamous, Ryse, Sunset, Forza all looked next gen the day they were revealed and they all released either at launch or within the year. They didnt need UE4. They developed their tech inhouse and managed to give it a big visual upgrade.

PS4/Xbox One had great first years. PBR was breakthrough rendering tech which was only be toyed with previously and impacted visual fidelity and asset detail significantly, the RAM jump and other limitation removals were invigorating after the suffocating previous gen, the move to X86 condensed the development complications... It was a good, smooth, beneficial console transition!

(Ironically, though, I don't remember that widespread expression of being blown away when those consoles came out either? It'd be hard to research and verify that, though it's out there, but I remember those consoles being rather quiet launches, with a lot of grumbling about how graphics still didn't measure up to the Samaritan demo much less the Infiltrator one, or how Dead Rising 3 should still have way more zombies if it's going to call itself 'next-gen', or that WatchDogs was a huge stinky downgrade that crushed hopes for what next-gen was really supposed to be. And I mostly remember games just generally sucking less to play, because of how hard the PS3/360 struggled to play at a livable framerate and not shred itself up with screen tearing. I remember it was easy to play Killzone Shadowfall and say, "Oh, this looks real nice and big, that's good... I don't like this game, so I'll stop and go back to Killzone Mercenary, but this city is for sure the shiniest city I've ever played.")

Watch-Dogs-Downgrade-1024x576.jpg

(Wasn't this the main talking point of PS4/Xb1's launch, or was it really how advanced Ryse and Killzone SF looked?)

...PS5/XBSXS have had a different kind of lifespan, unfortunately. Kind of.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
PS4/Xbox One had great first years. PBR was breakthrough rendering tech which could really only be toyed with previously and impacted visual fidelity and asset detail massively, the RAM jump and other limitation removals were invigorating after the suffocating previous gen, the move to X86 condensed the development complications... It was a good, smooth, beneficial console transition.

(Ironically, though, I don't remember that widespread expression of being blown away when those consoles came out? It'd be hard to research and verify that, though it's out there, but I remember those consoles being rather quiet launches, with a lot of grumbling about how graphics still didn't measure up to the Samaritan demo much less the Infiltrator one, or how Dead Rising 3 should still have way more zombies if it's going to call itself next-gen. I also kind of remember games just generally sucking less, because of how hard the PS3/360 struggled to play at a livable framerate. I remember it was easy to play Killzone Shadowfall and say, "Oh, this looks real nice and shiny, that's good... I don't like this game, so I'll stop and go back to Killzone Mercenary, but this city looks cool.")

...PS5/XBSXS have had a different kind of lifespan, unfortunately.
Shadowfall was an awful game lol but it did give us the visuals we wanted on day 1. Not just at launch but at the reveal. It was revealed alongside Driveclub, infamous and knack. Xbox revealed their console with Quantum Break in their tv tv tv conference and then followed it up with Ryse, Forza and a bunch of other games. The visual upgrade was there from day one.

And honestly, had the devs stuck with cross gen games, we wouldnt have seen the RAM increase make that much of a difference. Several cross gen games like AC Black Flags, CoD Ghosts, Battlefield 4, Far Cry 4 and Thief all looked last gen as fuck next to AC Unity and PS exclusives because they didnt actually used the extra vram to push higher fidelity objects. By summer 2015, Witcher 3, Batman AK, The Order and Bloodborne were out and the gen was in full swing. We are way past the summer of 2022 approaching summer 2023, and are still in cross gen hell.

Again, you just needed devs to target 1440p 30 fps like Epic did way back in May 2020. They had been working on that demo for a year. It shouldve been Sony and MS devs who shouldve been working on demos like that. Remember, April 2019 is when Cerny did the wired article because he was sending out dev kits and didnt want the PS5 info leaked before they could announce it. We are in April 2023 and we have seen nothing truly next gen from either first party aside from Ratchet's level switching. Forget next gen visuals, no physics stuff like that truck suspension, niagara water simulation, meta humans, nanite, lumens, destruction. nothing.

Silent hill from fucking bloober is the best looking game we've seen so far and thats fucking depressing.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Tried the fortnite demos. The dragon was one is rough. Very poor foliage quality. Waterfall looks like a joke. Lighting is good.

The space corridor demo was slightly more impressive. Especially the corridor. Lighting and materials were amazing.

Couldnt get the CoD map to load. And the most impressive demo from that show is still not available. No idea why. That looked better than most games ive seen this gen.
 

CamHostage

Member
Tech is getting insane. Epic is unmatched for a long damn time for game engines.

Just FYI though, MetaHuman isn't actually the same as the Unreal game engine; it's a tool (with cloud implementation) to design and construct and animate a character for use in a 3D engine such as Unreal. (Proprietarily, in this case, but I believe you could still technically explore your model/rig and then import it into another tool if you were crafty?) UE would be then used to render that model as a character, either realtime or as a cinematic, at some varying degree of fidelity that the project will support.

MetaHuman is kind of confusing what it is and isn't (and then they plugged a Seuna MetaHuman into a flaming background but I don't think that demo was using any of the game engine or using the character at in-game fidelity,) but as I understand the toolset, that isn't Unreal Engine there; that's something used to make things for Unreal Engine. Cool stuff, no doubt, but what you're seeing isn't part of a game, it's a component that gets processed into game parts for then making the game.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Just FYI though, MetaHuman isn't actually the same as the Unreal game engine; it's a tool (with cloud implementation) to design and construct and animate a character for use in a 3D engine such as Unreal. (Proprietarily, in this case, but I believe you could still technically explore your model/rig and then import it into another tool if you were crafty?) UE would be then used to render that model as a character, either realtime or as a cinematic, at some varying degree of fidelity that the project will support.

MetaHuman is kind of confusing what it is and isn't (and then they plugged a Seuna MetaHuman into a flaming background but I don't think that demo was using any of the game engine or using the character at in-game fidelity,) but as I understand the toolset, that isn't Unreal Engine there; that's something used to make things for Unreal Engine. Cool stuff, no doubt, but what you're seeing isn't part of a game, it's a component that gets processed into game parts for then making the game.
The tool is being sold as part of their UE5 suite of tools. So it kind of is. Right now, devs spend months if not years hand animating these faces. Or at least the best studios like ND do. What Epic has done here is automated the entire process, in minutes instead of months and thats just remarkable. Im sure animators would want to go in and hand animate the final cut, but to have that amazing render as a starting point is mind blowing to me.

I wonder if ND, SSM, GG, Capcom and others can borrow that tech from Epic like they do Quixel Megascans. I was surprised to see RE4 demo state that they are using Quixel Megascans. I thought Epic bought them years ago and made them a part of Unreal Engine. They must still be licensing them to other engines.
 

CGNoire

Member
What words were used? I only remember them saying it was on the latest AMD hardware.
Its not just the words used but the words omitted. Idk of course and am hoping for the best.!

I will have to watch it again to be sure. It seemed like a showcase for MetaHuman Animator and was just using the HB actress and model scan as an example of that tech. Not nessesarily realtime assets from game. They also referred to animation as unfiltered which at fisrt seems harmless like its just not been fully refined but it could also mean not optomized :/
 

Dolodolo

Member
Instead they wasted the last five years making last gen stuff like GOW, HFW, GT7 and TLOU remake. now they can either start researching this stuff or just license UE5. If they license UE5, they might actually get a game out before 2026. Otherwise we are looking at 2028 or later before we see any of this advnaced simulation stuff make it into games.
I hope Sony releases a demo of Spider-man 2 as soon as possible so that you can already calm down and stop jerking yourself off to technical demos of faces that still have nothing to do with real games
 
This is truly remarkable stuff considering it took them 3 minutes to capture and render all of this.

7Oc1dDq.gif


I really fucking hope stuff like Lumens, Nanite and this significantly shortens game dev times.
It's so close...but the mouth is now the most stiff-looking part, which is unfortunate because it's the most important. How did they finally fix the 'dead eyes' but break the mouth?
 

Lethal01

Member
Since they spoke about being more adult etc. i thought they were aiming for a more realistic style.

It kinda whiplash with a game of thrones tone if all the charas look like fucking korean pop singers and models with perfect faces...

Again, welcome to anime
Kentaro Miura Guts GIF


Personally I'm all for it and hope they never go for anything close to true "realism"
 

GymWolf

Member
Again, welcome to anime
Kentaro Miura Guts GIF


Personally I'm all for it and hope they never go for anything close to true "realism"

I guess in Anime it look less silly and more cohesive because everything look low detail\stylized, in the game everything is super detailed except the faces.
I guess it's their choice but it looks silly to me and the result is main characters looking less graphically impressive tham random npcs in horizon (because this was my initial point)

Curious to know the excuse when their digital acting in cutscene is also gonna be way inferior to the top dogs in the business...trying to replicate anime is not gonna cut it...
 
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H . R . 2

Member
This is the only gameplay i could find in that gameplay trailer but if it is real and not faked than wow. No way this runs at anything other than 1080p 30 fps on consoles if it ever comes out.

XOw6Lc7.gif

it gave me Detroit vibes. not necessarily in a good way
looks to be on-rail akin to the shooting sections in Beyond: Two Souls (look at the running animation at the end of the shootout or the character leaving the cover, it's just far too slow for normal player-driven gameplay; or the reload icon next to the character]
as for the frame rate I agree it will probably be 30 fps only, being a Korean game and all. but I do think they can optimise and upscale the resolution by release

It's so close...but the mouth is now the most stiff-looking part, which is unfortunate because it's the most important. How did they finally fix the 'dead eyes' but break the mouth?
I thought so too. but after watching the video again and listening to her talk, I am convinced that's how she pronounces words in English, rather stiff and exaggerated, which makes it look and sound weird in-engine
or perhaps during her UE4 captures, she was constantly told by NT to exaggerate a bit for the sake of the animations
 
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