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[TheSeks]

THEN WHY DOES IT COST MONEY?

This. Give me an "unlock everything" DLC pack like the "Timesavers" pack in Burnout Paradise, and I'd consider it simply because I want to drive cars and not grind for them.

Making me pay MORE than making a time-investment that may be longer but cheaper in the longer-run is stupid.

 

[Interfectum]

there's a small group of players that can't be bothered to do things and they have disposable income

So lets milk them dry, right?

 

[Stumpokapow]

I view this as pretty contrite, to be honest, and I'm surprised people think he's being evasive. He says the goal wasn't to make non-paying players feel like they've missed out, but he admits that no matter what their goal was if the players do feel they've missed out, then that's a bad thing. I think to the extent that he's reaching at all, it's a product of being in the bubble rather than malice.

 

[outunderthestars]

This seems to be a Microsoft-wide problem. Just admit you fucked up and got caught and you'll do better in the future. NO ONE misread anything, it's been mathematically proven how insane your microtransaction system was and how unfair it is to people who want to get everything without paying a dime.

All I could see when reading that was the Xbox execs earlier in the year constantly blaming the consumer for not understanding just how groundbreaking their original XB1 plans were.

Agreed. His "apology" comes off as sleazy.

 

[tfur]

What was the quote he used last generation, something something "The emperor wears no clothes?"

 

[FloatingDivider]

This seems like the most illogical bullshit I've read in quite a while. Why is the "sim" guy purchasing that's not really interested in the progression your career offers penalized, and subsequently forced to pay extra. Here's what they should do: offer up a mode where everything is unlocked -- you know like they used to do. How are you inspiring or progressing the community? When they've effectively negated a large amount of the advantages that used to come from making liveries or tuning setups or trading cars. It's all bullshit excuses from bullshit executives. Further more the career mode is about as engaging as watching paint dry, filling bars is not now and will not ever be meaningful progression. To me as a long time gamer this current situation is unreal -- you are no longer king of your content but rather enslaved by it. We spent entire decades trying to give players more options, more freedom and more control over their games. We did away with the arcade business model of fixing the games in favour of a one time purchase and it seems like we're now rolling the clock back on that decision.

 

[SmokyDave]

Why? Because he doesn't want EVERYONE using the best cars in the game.
Which if it was just a cheat code... they would.
Then that car I played 100+ hours to unlock would be worth absolutely nothing. Its not rocket science.

You don't HAVE to pay for them. You can play the GAME and UNLOCK them. Which is what you are supposed to do, quite frankly.

You sound like you get more joy showing off to other people than you do actually playing the game.

Your car is worthless because someone else has it too? Get real.

 

[FStop7]

His apology comes off as a man trying to walk a thin line between admitting they did the wrong thing vs. not quite openly criticizing the bean counters who mandated it.

 

[QaaQer]

nice pr spin boy-o.

• it's for rich busy people
• want to make the cars feel more valuable and enhance the experience
• it wasn't to make more money

 

[andycapps]

"I think the biggest travesty for me is how people have misread our intentions, because that's just been sad"

Translation: Its not our fault people are stupid.

Reminds me of how Microsoft has been handling their PR since they announced the Xbone.

 

[Felix Lighter]

If, as a designer, your best idea for a "barrier" for cheats is asking for cash, you're pretty bad at your job. Now if, as a designer, you're looking for a way to further monetize the game, charging for cheats makes all the sense in the world.

 

[ironcreed]

lol, birth of a new new buzzword right here.

That's right. Just put your foot on the gas real slow like. Sit back, relax and ease into the acceleration of giving us even more for content you already paid $60 for. Once you are comfortable with the traveling speed, please feel free to accelerate into buying our $50 season pass where we will also be pushing tokens for all of the DLC you also already bought. You see? It's all about the ultimate driving (you to spend more) experience!

 

[shandy706]

I view this as pretty contrite, to be honest, and I'm surprised people think he's being evasive. He says the goal wasn't to make non-paying players feel like they've missed out, but he admits that no matter what their goal was if the players do feel they've missed out, then that's a bad thing. I think to the extent that he's reaching at all, it's a product of being in the bubble rather than malice.

Agreed

I'm also fed up with people acting like you have to grind to play this game. Outside of the lesser content, and the stupid Day One DLC, the game plays like any other sim racer.

Saying it's a grind, or that you're pushed towards micro-transactions is an outright lie. I've not seen any point in the game yet where I felt I had to do anything other than enjoy racing, tuning, designing, and just playing the game.

Maybe if I blew every dime I had on one car, for one event...and wasn't good enough to place in the top 9 with that car or any other you get...then maybe my tail wouldn't be able to advance. Even my 6 year old daughter can make money in this game on the easiest settings.

I'm not happy with how some other things turned out with the game, and I've gone directly at Turn 10 over them. The MTs are something that some people have latched onto though....I guess as a convenient attack.

 

[sangreal]

You sound like you get more joy showing off to other people than you do actually playing the game.

Your car is worthless because someone else has it too? Get real.

Well, yes, that is a big motivational driver in these games. Do you think WoW would be fun if other players could just buy the best gear for a few real dollars or enter a cheat code?

 

[WarMacheen]

Why? Because he doesn't want EVERYONE using the best cars in the game.
Which if it was just a cheat code... they would.
Then that car I played 100+ hours to unlock would be worth absolutely nothing. Its not rocket science.

You don't HAVE to pay for them. You can play the GAME and UNLOCK them. Which is what you are supposed to do, quite frankly.



they didn't take content out (well they did, but not in this context, in this context they gave cars to people that they should be unlocking with in game credits for money. The content is still in the game for free if you WORK to unlock it).

I was responding specifically to

first devs take out costumes to make money and numerous other unlockables. now they take out cheats (as such)

We all know Forza 5 has less content that past iterations yet pushes tokens as a way to unlock that content faster. The design of the game "looks" like it was altered to implement tokens, regardless of what Dan says.

 

[paskowitz]

What they did could only be perceived one way, and never in "the way they intended". I find it hard to believe they were not aware of this when implementing their economy.

Dan is basically either saying, "We had good intentions, and were completely naive to the logical assumption that a lot of people would react negatively" or, "We had good intentions, we knew people would react negatively, but because our intentions were good we went ahead anyways."

That is some awesome thinking there.

 

[DrROBschiz]

You know what's the worst part about this, he actually believes it.

NAIL ON THE HEAD

Its like the marketing teams have infected game developers to the point that they willingly accept this practice that devalues their integrity, art and vision for games

Anyone who thinks this is harmless "whale fishing" is seriously missing a lot of details about why games are great in the first place.

Its hard enough to separate money/politics and artforms as it is. Trying to integrate the two always ends in disaster

 

[KingpinZero]

Mr. Greenawalt, i was on the verge of getting an Xbone just for Forza 5, because ive been loyal to this brand since the first ever.

This is like the mount K2 of crap. Good job, if the community is really what you look out for, just read the comments here.
The whole pricing scheme is a joke. It ruins otherwise a great game. Its like youve been putting yourself alot in the whole economics system that something else totally slipped your mind.

Mind to explain why theres that atrocius crowd? Mind to explain why the game changed so much since E3 (etc etc) build?

Wasnt better for your fans (or your community) to dedicate more time on it, instead wasting months and months into a ridiculus pricing scheme that NOBODY likes?

Do you know that theres a big economy crisis around the globe? You know that there are gamers who strive to get a system like Xbone, only to find their favorite game crippled by this whole "microtransactions" crap? That they possibly cant spend $100 fuckin' dollars on the game content THAT ALREADY GOES RETAILED FOR $60?

WTF is wrong with you man? And by god sake, show me who are those "users" that asked to pay real money to avoid grinding? Are those from Hollywood or maybe Bank Owners, or maybe those with a $10K salary?

You know, Forza aimed to be the GT for Xbone. Fact is, that forza may be a good contender, but youre far, far away from someone like Kazunori-San.
Greed is bad. Lies are better. Bullshitting your community, the very same you care for, is even worse. Fuck it im so pissed im done with forza.

 

[SmokyDave]

Well, yes, that is a big motivational driver in these games. Do you think WoW would be fun if people could just buy the best gear for a few real dollars or enter a cheat code?

I play these games and not once have I found myself flying around the Nurburgring in a 250 GTO and thought to myself 'this is so much better because a limited amount of people own this car'.

As far as I'm concerned, all tracks and all cars should be accessible to all players.

Would FIFA be a better game if you had to grind to unlock teams?

 

[NervousXtian]

This. Give me an "unlock everything" DLC pack like the "Timesavers" pack in Burnout Paradise, and I'd consider it simply because I want to drive cars and not grind for them.

Making me pay MORE than making a time-investment that may be longer but cheaper in the longer-run is stupid.

I'm actually ok with this. Burnout had it, Skate 2 had it.. and if someone just wanted the game to fuck around with the option was there.

You sound like you get more joy showing off to other people than you do actually playing the game.

Your car is worthless because someone else has it too? Get real.

I think that personally, if they offered a fair priced unlock all content for say even $10-15... then it'd be fine. The grind for cars is somewhat needed as rewards for progression.

I think more should be unlocked to start with though... at least all tracks and a fair amount of cars.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Mr. Greenawalt, i was on the verge of getting an Xbone just for Forza 5, because ive been loyal to this brand since the first ever.

This is like the mount K2 of crap. Good job, if the community is really what you look out for, just read the comments here.
The whole pricing scheme is a joke. It ruins otherwise a great game. Its like youve been putting yourself alot in the whole economics system that something else totally slipped your mind.

Mind to explain why theres that atrocius crowd? Mind to explain why the game changed so much since E3 (etc etc) build?

Wasnt better for your fans (or your community) to dedicate more time on it, instead wasting months and months into a ridiculus pricing scheme that NOBODY likes?

Do you know that theres a big economy crisis around the globe? You know that there are gamers who strive to get a system like Xbone, only to find their favorite game crippled by this whole "microtransactions" crap? That they possibly cant spend $100 fuckin' dollars on the game content THAT ALREADY GOES RETAILED FOR $60?

WTF is wrong with you man? And by god sake, show me who are those "users" that asked to pay real money to avoid grinding? Are those from Hollywood or maybe Bank Owners, or maybe those with a $10K salary?

You know, Forza aimed to be the GT for Xbone. Fact is, that forza may be a good contender, but youre far, far away from someone like Kazunori-San.
Greed is bad. Lies are better. Bullshitting your community, the very same you care for, is even worse. Fuck it im so pissed im done with forza.

lol you had me going up until Kazunori-san, that shit has me rolling

 

[Neifirst]

Forza 5 is the first I've ever played in the series and I'm not sure that I'll ever feel the need to pay anything extra beyond the $60 cost of the game. The grind to earn levels, affiliations, and credits is what draws me in the first place, plus the extra credits you get through the forza rewards website is more than enough to enable affordability of most every car in the game (I've gotten $3 million already this month).

 

[quickdevilred]

You sound like you get more joy showing off to other people than you do actually playing the game.

Your car is worthless because someone else has it too? Get real.

if I played 100+ hours for it, yeah...
I mean more cars should be available for rental for sure, but if I want to customize my own car I should need to have earned the car to do that.

Why do you think people walk around in MMOs wearing crap that is statistically inferior to items they use when they are doing quests/pvp...

 

[dark_chris]

If it wasn't about making money, you'd have just made it a cheat code.

You didn't do that though. You attached a price to it.

So don't act like it wasn't about making money. Because it was. We all know it was. Stop treating us like idiots. Even the youngest kids on this forum know what the Contra Code was.

Exactly! Thank you!

Why? Because he doesn't want EVERYONE using the best cars in the game.
Which if it was just a cheat code... they would.
Then that car I played 100+ hours to unlock would be worth absolutely nothing. Its not rocket science.

You don't HAVE to pay for them. You can play the GAME and UNLOCK them. Which is what you are supposed to do, quite frankly.



they didn't take content out (well they did, but not in this context, in this context they gave cars to people that they should be unlocking with in game credits for money. The content is still in the game for free if you WORK to unlock it).

No heres the thing.
Look at what GTA4 did. There were cheat codes where you can unlock the best cars and vehicles in the game but the cheat codes didn't work in the multiplayer. Simple as that.

 

[DoYouEvenLift?]

NAIL ON THE HEAD

Its like the marketing teams have infected game developers to the point that they willingly accept this practice that devalues their integrity, art and vision for games

Anyone who thinks this is harmless "whale fishing" is seriously missing a lot of details about why games are great in the first place.

Its hard enough to separate money/politics and artforms as it is. Trying to integrate the two always ends in disaster

Oh come off it... this guy doesn't believe what he's saying. But I guess it would be bad form to just admit that he wants to make more money.

 

[AngryMoth]

I am the only person who feels that if someone doesn't have time to unlock something, then tough shit they don't get to unlock it? Knowing I could just pay for something (even though I'm never going to) really diminishes it's appeal to me and makes me not care about going through the hassle to unlock it. Or at least make it a cheat code like people have said rather than legitimising it. And if it's frustrating to people having to unlock things, that's a game design issue, not a monetisation one. If you think people might want to pay not to play part of the game then that part probably should not be in there.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned if you're charging $60 for a game you shouldn't be asking for more money on day one regardless of your intentions, be it dlc or 'time saving' micro transactions or whatever. End of story.

 

[quickdevilred]

stuff

doesn't GT also have a fair amount of grinding and MT's...?

 

[Arcteryx]

there's a small group of players that can't be bothered to do things and they have disposable income

You mean like...playing the game?

When the core of the game is re-designed to cater towards the "small group", then you've got a HUGE issue. Just because these people don't have time to play, doesn't mean that everyone else who DOES should have to spend even MORE time on grindy shit.

This "I'm sorry that you don't understand what we planned" instead of "I'm sorry we fucked up" is silly. Just speak plainly. That PR shit isn't fooling anyone.

 

[SmokyDave]

if I played 100+ hours for it, yeah...
I mean more cars should be available for rental for sure, but if I want to customize my own car I should need to have earned the car to do that.

Why do you think people walk around in MMOs wearing crap that is statistically inferior to items they use when they are doing quests/pvp...

Why do people keep coming back to MMO analogies? Motor racing is a sport. Compare it to other sports games.

 

[FloatingDivider]

Well, yes, that is a big motivational driver in these games. Do you think WoW would be fun if people could just buy the best gear for a few real dollars or enter a cheat code?

Yes, because I'm comfortable with the size of my internet wang -- it'd be as fun as a hotbar style mmorpg could be.

 

[Goldmund]

These failed attempts at showing remorse always pose a dilemma: either the person actually believes the bullshit they're spouting and therefore should be met with scorn, or the person doesn't believe their own bullshit yet continues to spout it, in which case they should be met with contempt. It would be so much easier to actually take stock of oneself, reconsider one's actions and either rectify misdeeds or make up for them; it would show respect for oneself and others.

 

[BigDug13]

The fact that DLC cars you purchase are also locked behind the grind is the most egregious part to me.

Why aren't the DLC cars simply unlocked when you buy them?

 

[QaaQer]

This. Give me an "unlock everything" DLC pack like the "Timesavers" pack in Burnout Paradise, and I'd consider it simply because I want to drive cars and not grind for them.

Making me pay MORE than making a time-investment that may be longer but cheaper in the longer-run is stupid.

That is a good way to do it. It has a reasonable one time upfront cost $10. But putting shit in games that could theoretically cost >$1000 is kinda evil because they prey on people with problems, not rich busy people.

 

[low-G]

Only way to make up for it is for the next 300 cars worth of DLC and next 10 tracks to be free to all users, paid users get 40 more tracks and 1000 more cars.

 

[KingpinZero]

lol you had me going up until Kazunori-san, that shit has me rolling

LOL no seriously. Ive watched countless of DEV diaries and interviews of this guy, and compared em with Kaz ones. Kaz makes me understand that he loves what he does.

GT isnt perfect, but man i love that man. He at least shows some respect, loves what he does, and DOESNT TRY TO SCREW his very own user base with these shit-stunts.

Seems that his team always tried to emulate PD. I liked em and tried to oversee some of the shit this dude has been doing in the past years. Im fed up now, cant take it anymore.

You know the best thing ever happened to Forza is? FORZA HORIZON. And its not even made by this ...uhfg....man.

doesn't GT also have a fair amount of grinding and MT's...?

Does GT screws up things like Forza do, or like HE does? What kind of possible apology is this?
I feel that someone is joking with me without even making me laugh. I HATE liers. GT requires grinding like any other game. But its not a fucking F2Paywall.

 

[WarMacheen]

I'm actually ok with this. Burnout had it, Skate 2 had it.. and if someone just wanted the game to fuck around with the option was there.



I think that personally, if they offered a fair priced unlock all content for say even $10-15... then it'd be fine. The grind for cars is somewhat needed as rewards for progression.

I think more should be unlocked to start with though... at least all tracks and a fair amount of cars.

I too would be ok with an unlock everything DLC for a fair price. That way they can keep their crappy IAP's out of the game and it wouldn't need to alter the design at all.

 

[LOLCats]

Wait what...?

They modified the game to support some rich dudes with a sim setup that cant be bothered to actually play the game to earn credits like they have implemented.

I cannot believe they made these dramatic changes to Forza 5 for such a small percentage of the community that are willing to spend 100's of dollars to buy cars?

Inconceivable... what is that fraction of users? 1%? really did they make a game to cater to the 1%? America ftw?

 

[sangreal]

What they did could only be perceived one way, and never in "the way they intended". I find it hard to believe they were not aware of this when implementing their economy.

Dan is basically either saying, "We had good intentions, and were completely naive to the logical assumption that a lot of people would react negatively" or, "We had good intentions, we knew people would react negatively, but because our intentions were good we went ahead anyways."

That is some awesome thinking there.

It could easily be perceived as them trying to increase the scarcity of the best cars, which was their stated intention. If they just wanted to sell MTs, they would have kept the MTs cheap while making it harder to buy cars with credits but instead they increased the price to achieve parity with the -in-game effort required to unlock cars

I don't want the MTs to be available at all, because I think it devalues the experience for non-payers like me, but it isn't hard to understand where he claims they were coming from.

 

[shem935]

It's not about money....it's about sending. a. message.

 

[BruiserBear]

Greenwalt is so full of shit when he tries to suggest these changes weren't made for selfish reasons on their part. Not being able to sell back your cars? Even for a pitiful sum? That's bullshit. This entire game's economy was designed around the desire to push the cusomter to spend more money like a F2P game.

I say that as someone who bought the game and finds it enjoyable overall, but it's abundantly clear the design was influenced by suits who wanted to squeeze extra dollars out of the customer.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Why? Because he doesn't want EVERYONE using the best cars in the game.
Which if it was just a cheat code... they would.

You could mark people using cheat codes. You could lock trophies. Best if all, you could make online race brackets that restrict cheat code users from participation. Then cheat codes have zero effect on the players who earn their cars.

And going that route (restricting cheat ciders from aspects of online play) would mean you don't have to worry about unskilled players, in powerful cars they don't have the seat time to handle, fucking up your races either. Which is something you have to worry now, since any unskilled moron with a fat credit card can buy a supercar and wreck your ass out of a race. You guys that are earning these cars through the progression that builds skills and encourage clean racing should be the MOST upset about this...not looking for ways to excuse it.

There's a lot of other ways to approach this. They chose to go for the cash grab.

 

[FStop7]

If it wasn't about making money, you'd have just made it a cheat code.

You didn't do that though. You attached a price to it.

So don't act like it wasn't about making money. Because it was. We all know it was. Stop treating us like idiots. Even the youngest kids on this forum know what the Contra Code was.

Yeah. Put Nosliw and team4za back in.

 

[QaaQer]

I view this as pretty contrite, to be honest, and I'm surprised people think he's being evasive. He says the goal wasn't to make non-paying players feel like they've missed out, but he admits that no matter what their goal was if the players do feel they've missed out, then that's a bad thing. I think to the extent that he's reaching at all, it's a product of being in the bubble rather than malice.

Being sorry that the regulars noticed the whale traps intended to bilk people out of hundreds is a pretty weird apology.

 

[Gigarator]

I've not believed a word this guy has said for the last few years. He speaks like a PR man and comes out with all sorts of buzzwords. The biggest thing I'm seeing in this particular interview however is the fact that he's saying "to be honest" and "honestly" to begin almost all of his answers.

Such a shady guy.

 

[Vire]

I can't imagine the money they made on micro transactions for Forza 5 has been worth the damage to the brand and the ire caused by fans.

Just fucking remove that shit and then people will accept your apology.

Till then:

 

[ebullientprism]

I think the biggest travesty for me is how people have misread our intentions

I think people understood your intentions pretty clearly. Systems like these are designed with very clear deliberation. You dont accidentally or mistakenly F2Paywall your game.

 

[Oppo]

I'm not really wading into this..

...but I couldn't help but think, his definition of "acceleration" applies equally to something like, say, Tiny Tower. And no one argues that that's not F2P.

 

[sangreal]

Wait what...?

They modified the game to support some rich dudes with a sim setup that cant be bothered to actually play the game to earn credits like they have implemented.

I cannot believe they made these dramatic changes to Forza 5 for such a small percentage of the community that are willing to spend 100's of dollars to buy cars?

Inconceivable... what is that fraction of users? 1%? really did they make a game to cater to the 1%? America ftw?

I'm not sure you understand what he is saying... He claims the option exists for those rich dudes that only want to do sims and not play the career but they did not make any adjustments to sell tokens, for the same reasons you cited.

I can understand if you don't believe him, but he is explicitly stating the opposite to what you claim

 

[Sneds]

Why do people keep coming back to MMO analogies? Motor racing is a sport. Compare it to other sports games.

Regardless, I don't think that's a healthy mentality for MMO players to have either.

If you're playing a game just to show off your loot to other people then I think it's time to reevaluate whether you're actually having a genuinely rewarding experience playing the game. It is linked to what Jonathan Blow has said in the past about MMO's being manipulative rather than genuinely fun.

It's sad to me that the same mentality is now leaking into other genres.

 

[MANGOD]

Waiting to see gow much they are gonna charge for the ring!! SCUM