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Greenberg: Quantum Break is not coming to Steam

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
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peter.metaclassofnil.com
Wait, do all of the games on the Windows Store come in the form of Metro apps? Oh god.
There were some noises about allowing Win32 on it at some point, but those mostly died down and at this point it's Universal Apps only.

Oh god indeed.

To me it seems like all those "immposible" things come down to inability to fix those things post-release, and not the game dev's inability to implement them.
Meaining that those things are possible, but they need to be done properly by the game dev rather than be fixed by the community after the game is out.
This applies to some things but not others. For example, a dev could never offer true fullscreen or Freesync support in an UWA app even if they wanted to. And as a matter of fact they also couldn't offer Mumble support, because you can't interface with outside (non-sandboxed) programs.

But even if those restrictions for developers themselves were not there, the ability to interface various programs with each other and for the community to improve and extend games well beyond the original support of the publisher is part of the identity of PC gaming and has been for decades.
 

c0Zm1c

Member
Jul 7, 2012
1,948
0
0

Rise of the Tomb Raider: Robot Chicken Edition.
 

Darkstorne

Member
May 26, 2014
2,886
0
0
There's more.


This is what happens when you use SLi, want to use nvidia inspector to fix it? Well you can't. There's a patch on Steam that fixed this, Window Store's patch was said to arrive a few days after Steam's, since I don't own it on Window Store, I'm not sure if it's released now.

And in the UK the game is more expensive on the Windows Store than it is on Steam. It's far from a good start for them.
 
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I agree. I like control and injecting SMAA, FPS counters, and SweetFX as much as the next guy but the game being on the Windows Store has no bearing on my future purchase. It is coming to PC and I will be getting it regardless of the platform it will release on. I'm not about that bullshit ' no Steam, no buy" life.

I like being able to use actually my controllers, but by the looks of it I wont be able to do so in one case (Steam Controller), and will have to use a sub-optimal solution in another (DirectInput only controller, which I intended to use with another game that'll likely be released on the W10 Store), thanks to the sandboxed nature of the Windows 10 Store. While I don't particular care whether or not the game is on Steam or another store-front, I do care about those issues, and there are also several other programs that I use which wont work any more, which is rather inconvenient as well.
 

protomouse

Member
Jun 8, 2014
3,897
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twitter.com
The general "appification" of Windows would be a worrying trend, but I doubt gaming is going to make or break that. If Microsoft can manage to convince their business customers that there's merit to UWP, that's when it happens. There's so much money tied up in the Windows ecosystem that I highly doubt this is feasible.

Microsoft has made some pretty confounding decisions about Windows in recent years. Even Apple seems to realize that there's a point in not forcing smart device sensibilities onto dedicated computers.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Jan 14, 2010
17,476
2
0
There were some noises about allowing Win32 on it at some point, but those mostly died down and at this point it's Universal Apps only.

Oh god indeed.

Project centennial is still a thing. The Win32 software will likely be running in a vm though.
 

Costia

Member
Mar 8, 2013
1,915
0
0
steamcommunity.com
There were some noises about allowing Win32 on it at some point, but those mostly died down and at this point it's Universal Apps only.
Oh god indeed.
This applies to some things but not others. For example, a dev could never offer true fullscreen or Freesync support in an UWA app even if they wanted to. And as a matter of fact they also couldn't offer Mumble support, because you can't interface with outside (non-sandboxed) programs.
So that means mumble will have to make a mumble app for this to work?
And I find the claim "you can't interface with outside (non-sandboxed) programs." very hard to believe. Some software uses sockets for IPC. Aare you saying that the new executable format blocks using sockets? You are saying that a game can't contact a mumble server directly and/or can't communicate with a localy running application via sockets (or maybe named pipes)? That would mean no multiplayer games at all...
As to free-sync (and Gsync), i have a feeling AMD (and nvidia) will be able to put enough pressure on MS to make the required API changes to make this possible, even if it will be againsts the general phylosophy of the API. My bet would be on a dx12 extension of some sort that would implement a way around this restriction.
But even if those restrictions for developers themselves were not there, the ability to interface various programs with each other and for the community to improve and extend games well beyond the original support of the publisher is part of the identity of PC gaming and has been for decades.
This is the real issue here, not the "impossible" things you listed.
Edit: it's basically a "Free software" vs "proprietary software" debate.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Jan 14, 2010
17,476
2
0
So that means mumble will have to make a mumble app for this to work?
And I find the claim "you can't interface with outside (non-sandboxed) programs." very hard to believe. Some software uses sockets for IPC. Aare you saying that the new executable format blocks using sockets? You are saying that a game can't contact a mumble server directly and/or can't communicate with a localy running application via sockets (or maybe named pipes)? That would mean no multiplayer games at all...

Of course you can use sockets.
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
1
0
peter.metaclassofnil.com
So you're going to implement the Mumble overlay and positional audio using sockets?

This is the real issue here, not the "impossible" things you listed.
Most of the impossible (without the scare quotes) things I listed are impossible under an UWA model.

Edit: it's basically a "Free software" vs "proprietary software" debate.
It's a "debate" between running Dark Souls at 1024x720 30 FPS or running it at arbitrary resolution and 60 FPS.

It's a "debate" between having Knights of the Old Republic lovingly crafted closer to its original vision over many years by the community, or being stuck with the original broken and incomplete release.

It's a "debate" between one of the very best first person RPGs - Vampire Bloodlines - lingering in a broken (and unplayable on modern computers) state, or having all its issues fixed over a decade of dedicated work.
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
1
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peter.metaclassofnil.com
Well, he/she asked if you could use sockets in the UWP. That answer is yes.
He/she is doing nothing other than deflecting from the very real, very immediate restrictions imposed upon gamers by the UWA model, and trying to paint any arguments against it as more philosophical than driven by a direct reduction in functionality.

These restrictions are factual, and trying to change the conversation will not change that.
 

Messofanego

Banned
Oct 31, 2011
46,356
1
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twitter.com
There's more.


This is what happens when you use SLi, want to use nvidia inspector to fix it? Well you can't. There's a patch on Steam that fixed this, Window Store's patch was said to arrive a few days after Steam's, since I don't own it on Window Store, I'm not sure if it's released now.

Tomb Raider gone stop motion!
 
D

Deleted member 98878

Unconfirmed Member
Not surprised. But if it has the same limitations that RotTR had, I won't buy it.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Jan 14, 2010
17,476
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0
He/she is doing nothing other than deflecting from the very real, very immediate restrictions imposed upon gamers by the UWA model, and trying to paint any arguments against it as more philosophical than driven by a direct reduction in functionality.

These restrictions are factual, and trying to change the conversation will not change that.

Ah, rereading it now it does come off as sarcastic. I just woke up.
 

ViviOggi

Member
Feb 22, 2013
10,886
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Deciding to forgo playing a game because of superficial reasons is the definition of petty.
This might come as a shock but you don't have to play every single game under the sun, for a plethora of valid reasons.

Do explain how these specific reasons explained dozens of times by now are superficial though.
 

Costia

Member
Mar 8, 2013
1,915
0
0
steamcommunity.com
So you're going to implement the Mumble overlay and positional audio using sockets?
No, it's the dev's job. Not yours or mine. It's not your job to fix the shit that they mess up.
Either they implement it, or will be replaced by someone else who will.
Most of the impossible (without the scare quotes) things I listed are impossible under an UWA model.
The quotes are because from what i understand most of those thing are possible as long as they are implemented by the sowftware developer himself, rather than be fixed using as a post-release hack implemented by the community.
It's a "debate" between running Dark Souls at 1024x720 30 FPS or running it at arbitrary resolution and 60 FPS.
No it isn't. Like i said previously, it's not your job to fix their mistakes. Maybe if they know they cant count on the community to fix their shit, they will start releasing software that actually works without getting hacked.

I don't like the idea of "cloesd" software either, but I find your examples of the impossible somewhat dishonest.
My argument against this practice would be based on the long term impacts and not the removal of video game hacks. (Edit: I mean "hack" in it's proper meaning here, not the negative one)
Specifically, if they decide to ditch the Win32 PE format, i will be switching to linux.
 

Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 3, 2014
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640
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Hahaha. Have you seen the system requirements for the game? Do you think the average user has a computer capable of even running the game, let a lone to a decent standard. Look at the system requirements and then have a rethink about everything you just said.

Ah, I am pretty sure people with a half-decent rig will have no problem running QB with XBOX One quality settings and resolution.
 

Haunted

Member
Nov 16, 2006
78,220
18
965
Ah, I am pretty sure people with a half-decent rig will have no problem running QB with XBOX One quality settings and resolution.
Then again, the people with a rig beefy enough to run QB are exactly the kind of people who are most likely to be put off by the restrictions of the W10 store.

They're trying to create a casual-friendly, idiot-proof store (just like on mobile!), yet approach this in a way that completely alienates all the users who value the kind of openness, flexibility and control that only PC gaming affords.
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
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peter.metaclassofnil.com
No, it's the dev's job.
Why? Mumble is an external tool I and my friends would like to use. Why should every single game developer have to put work into supporting it, when the Mumble development community can do it instead?

Just so that Microsoft can push their app concept?

Maybe if they know they cant count on the community to fix their shit, they will start releasing software that actually works without getting hacked.
So what you are saying is that game companies will suddenly start to deliver perfect ports with every feature every PC gamer desires, and they will support them for over a decade? (Like the communities for KoToR 2 and VTMB have done, to name but two)

I really don't even know where you are going with this any more. Are you dreaming?

Because that won't happen, and the result will be incomplete and unmaintained games which will never be made better and never achieve their full potential.
That's the reality of UWA.
 

Z3M0G

Member
Jan 16, 2012
9,748
41
585
My main problem is that i cant install windows 10. Every single time i try to upgrade from 7 it loads to a black screen... forcing me to reboot, which causes it to revert back to 7...
 

gamz

Member
Nov 11, 2015
13,661
5
370
My main problem is that i cant install windows 10. Every single time i try to upgrade from 7 it loads to a black screen... forcing me to reboot, which causes it to revert back to 7...

Have you tried a fresh install?
 

protomouse

Member
Jun 8, 2014
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twitter.com
How do you mean?

Well, for instance, the user experience aspect of OS X remains largely unchanged and carries over from OS 9. Microsoft made violent changes to Windows 8, which even carried over into Windows Server. Whenever Apple introduced elements of iOS to OS X, they almost always did so on the side.

While the Mac App Store is not without restriction, it isn't part of a grand scheme to unify deployment of apps across every Apple device (limiting developers to a cross-platform compatible subset of technologies and APIs). It exists on its own, as a storefront with DRM, for desktop-class apps.
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Nov 30, 2011
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It's a "debate" between running Dark Souls at 1024x720 30 FPS or running it at arbitrary resolution and 60 FPS.

It's a "debate" between having Knights of the Old Republic lovingly crafted closer to its original vision over many years by the community, or being stuck with the original broken and incomplete release.

It's a "debate" between one of the very best first person RPGs - Vampire Bloodlines - lingering in a broken (and unplayable on modern computers) state, or having all its issues fixed over a decade of dedicated work.

Ok, according to your logic:

- Game runs like shit
- Game has Denuvo

-> Denuvo is the problem, not that the game runs like shit. Haha wow.

Also, Quantum Break won't run like shit. This game is being developed by Remedy. It won't run in 1024x720 with 30 fps. We are talking here about games from Microsoft, not about games from some low tier developer.

And, you know, Microsoft is the creator of Windows and UWP. They can work on improving their software for big game releases. There are certain limitations right now. But I'm pretty sure they are aware of them, because the Windows Store and the UWP model weren't designed with these kind of apps in mind. No service was perfect from the beginning. Steam was a mess. Origin was crap. They all turned out pretty well.
 

nOoblet16

Member
Feb 1, 2010
15,340
0
915
Liverpool
The framerate in that gif is fine , I made the gif.

The reason it looks weird as Hell is because the water keeps spazzing back and forth like it can't decide if gravity works.

It's funny and weird to see that happen though, since the water in that cutscene is effectively a video that is superimposed on the real time 3D models for the environment.

Gemüsepizza;195221747 said:
Ok, according to your logic:

- Game runs like shit
- Game has Denuvo

-> Denuvo is the problem, not that the game runs like shit. Haha wow.

Also, Quantum Break won't run like shit. This game is being developed by Remedy. It won't run in 1024x720 with 30 fps. We are talking here about games from Microsoft, not about games from some low tier developer.

And, you know, Microsoft is the creator of Windows and UWP. They can work on improving their software for big game releases. There are certain limitations right now. But I'm pretty sure they are aware of them, because the Windows Store and the UWP model weren't designed for these kind of apps. No service was perfect from the beginning. Steam was a mess. Origin was crap. They all turned out pretty well.
No that's not his logic. You are putting words in his mouth.
What he is saying is that if a game is released in a bad condition and developers can't support it then the game is dead, in some cases the game is released in good condition but it does not work with newer hardware and developers won't support games that are several years old....in which case that game is dead too !

The community however is willing to support the game but if you prevent the community from doing anything then you will essentially kill the game no matter what after a certain point....EVEN if it's a good port because at some point it might not work with future hardware.

Also Durante fixed Tales of Symphonia so that people who bought the game can atleast still enjoy it, but he also wrote a big article on why it's wrong to release poor ports and condemned the publishers.

So in shot no...that's not what he was saying with his logic.
 

mcrommert

Banned
Oct 24, 2013
4,461
1
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My main problem is that i cant install windows 10. Every single time i try to upgrade from 7 it loads to a black screen... forcing me to reboot, which causes it to revert back to 7...

Have you tried turning the computer off and on

;)
 
Aug 2, 2014
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Is that a free option?

You'll probably have to do a clean install of Windows 7 first, and then upgraded from there. There may be a way to skip directly to doing a clean install of W10, but from what I know you need to go through the upgrade process in order to "convert" your W7 license into a W10 license. After you've done that, then you can retrieve your W10 key and do a clean install of W10 if you so desire.
 

8-Bit Sunset

Banned
Aug 2, 2015
1,652
0
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Japan
My main problem is that i cant install windows 10. Every single time i try to upgrade from 7 it loads to a black screen... forcing me to reboot, which causes it to revert back to 7...

If you only installed Steam OS you wouldn't be having all of these problems!






;)
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
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peter.metaclassofnil.com
Gemüsepizza;195221747 said:
And, you know, Microsoft is the creator of Windows and UWP. They can work on improving their software for big game releases.
What about small game releases? What about middle-of-the-road releases?

Gemüsepizza;195221747 said:
There are certain limitations right now. But I'm pretty sure they are aware of them, because the Windows Store and the UWP model weren't designed with these kind of apps in mind. No service was perfect from the beginning. Steam was a mess. Origin was crap. They all turned out pretty well.
So you believe that the Windows Universal App model will be revamped entirely to allow for the type of long-term community support which allowed games like KoToR 2, VTMB and DS1 to reach their full potential?
 

Costia

Member
Mar 8, 2013
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0
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Why? Mumble is an external tool I and my friends would like to use. Why should every single game developer have to put work into supporting it, when the Mumble development community can do it instead?
Just so that Microsoft can push their app concept?
.
They won't have to. You know, like you can use different browsers and different email clients to open links.
They will have to make some sort of standart for VoiP as well (I am not familiar with VoiP , but i would bet a few more or less standard protocols already exist). So a game dev would have to implement support for that API once, and you will be able to use any VoiP app that will support it.
These type of problems are solvable. Not even hard to solve either.
So what you are saying is that game companies will suddenly start to deliver perfect ports with every feature every PC gamer desires, and they will support them for over a decade? (Like the communities for KoToR 2 and VTMB have done, to name but two)
I really don't even know where you are going with this any more. Are you dreaming?
Because that won't happen, and the result will be incomplete and unmaintained games which will never be made better and never achieve their full potential.
That's the reality of UWA.
Suddenly? Of course not. Over 5-10 years more like it. In the long term, it will be a "do or die" for them. And they like money, so i think they will prefer the "do". I guess I am just not a pessimistic as you are.
As to support and game preservation. I have posted about it in the 3DM thread. The short version: I think relying on the consumers/community to do be responsible for game preservation is fighting a losing battle. It will either have to change or it will eventually fail. I would rather see people fight for forcing the dev's to do it rather than see people saying "no need to worry, it's OK, 3DM/durante/whatever will eventually hack it".
I don't see hacks as a viable solution to the problems that you are describing.
 

notaskwid

Member
Oct 20, 2015
6,460
10
375
Osaka
Gemüsepizza;195221747 said:
Ok, according to your logic:

- Game runs like shit
- Game has Denuvo

-> Denuvo is the problem, not that the game runs like shit. Haha wow.

Also, Quantum Break won't run like shit. This game is being developed by Remedy. It won't run in 1024x720 with 30 fps. We are talking here about games from Microsoft, not about games from some low tier developer.

And, you know, Microsoft is the creator of Windows and UWP. They can work on improving their software for big game releases. There are certain limitations right now. But I'm pretty sure they are aware of them, because the Windows Store and the UWP model weren't designed with these kind of apps in mind. No service was perfect from the beginning. Steam was a mess. Origin was crap. They all turned out pretty well.

Lol because ports of things like Halo 2 were perfect amirite.
 

kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
Apr 27, 2006
6,105
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Stockholm
Gemüsepizza;195221747 said:
Ok, according to your logic:

- Game runs like shit
- Game has Denuvo

-> Denuvo is the problem, not that the game runs like shit. Haha wow.

Also, Quantum Break won't run like shit. This game is being developed by Remedy. It won't run in 1024x720 with 30 fps. We are talking here about games from Microsoft, not about games from some low tier developer.

And, you know, Microsoft is the creator of Windows and UWP. They can work on improving their software for big game releases. There are certain limitations right now. But I'm pretty sure they are aware of them, because the Windows Store and the UWP model weren't designed with these kind of apps in mind. No service was perfect from the beginning. Steam was a mess. Origin was crap. They all turned out pretty well.

If in 3 years time Microsoft abandons Win10 rendering Quantum Break unplayable, then what? Sure, you could argue that it's just one of those third person shooters that didn't set the world on fire but it's still a game that's left unplayable due to platform wars.
 

mcrommert

Banned
Oct 24, 2013
4,461
1
395
Mumble has an overlay to show who is talking, which is kind of important if you are running a guild chat with 20+ members.
It also has direct integration with a huge number of games to provide positional audio (by dll injection).

I think I may have posted this close to ten times now

Dxtory's fps overlay works...so mumbles could work too...people have said an offical overlay api is coming very soon

Dll injection however is not happening.
 

Palette Swap

Member
May 13, 2009
12,826
0
0
That place there.
No, it's the dev's job. Not yours or mine. It's not your job to fix the shit that they mess up.
Either they implement it, or will be replaced by someone else who will.
By that rationale, we wouldn't have the best version of Dark Souls we currently have, and Bamco might have given up on releasing PC games.
There's been an ecosystem of community mods and fixes for ages, you can't really say out of the blue "let devs sort it out".
 

jmga

Member
Mar 28, 2013
1,712
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They won't have to. You know, like you can use different browsers and different email clients to open links.
They will have to make some sort of standart for VoiP as well (I am not familiar with VoiP , but i would bet a few more or less standard protocols already exist). So a game dev would have to implement support for that API once, and you will be able to use any VoiP app that will support it.
These type of problems are solvable. Not even hard to solve either.

You can also say that Microsoft could simple ditch de UWA model and solve everything, and that wouldn't be even hard.

Your argument is based upon a fallacy.

The whole problem of UWA is that control is taken away from users and communities, and that is what Microsoft wants.
 
Aug 2, 2014
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They won't have to. You know, like you can use different browsers and different email clients to open links.
They will have to make some sort of standart for VoiP as well (I am not familiar with VoiP , but i would bet a few more or less standard protocols already exist). So a game dev would have to implement support for that API once, and you will be able to use any VoiP app that will support it.
These type of problems are solvable. Not even hard to solve either.

That's not a solution, though, that's just wishful thinking. I mean, do we have any indication that Microsoft has any plans to add such functionality, much less in a reasonable time-frame? That would also put the feature-set available to users entirely at the mercy of Microsoft, since developers would not be able to extend it past what is exposed by the API. And not just in terms of VOIP, but also in terms of any of the other types of extensions that are possible via injection when games are not locked down, but which now require that Microsoft add official support.
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
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peter.metaclassofnil.com
They won't have to. You know, like you can use different browsers and different email clients to open links.
They will have to make some sort of standart for VoiP as well (I am not familiar with VoiP , but i would bet a few more or less standard protocols already exist). So a game dev would have to implement support for that API once, and you will be able to use any VoiP app that will support it.
These type of problems are solvable. Not even hard to solve either.
So basically, for any kind of feature anyone has ever wanted and added on to a PC game, an API has to be developed, standardized and supported by every dev?

THIS WON'T WORK. IT'S WISHFUL THINKING. IT'S NOT HOW PROGRESS IS MADE ON THE PC PLATFORM, OR WHY IT IS THE BREEDING GROUND FOR INNOVATION.


Suddenly? Of course not. Over 5-10 years more like it. In the long term, it will be a "do or die" for them. And they like money, so i think they will prefer the "do". I guess I am just not a pessimistic as you are.
I'd not describe your position as "not pessimistic", I'd describe it as entirely divorced from any semblance of reality.

And again, why all this pain?
I think I've done a pretty good job laying out all the various drawbacks, limitations and long-term issues which the UWA platform creates for gamers. Is there any real advantage for consumers to it which actually makes all that worthwhile?
 

Dick Justice

Banned
Jan 1, 2012
10,094
0
0
Now we've come so far that we've got people arguing against stuff like Durante's fixes for Dark Souls and other games. The stupidity and astroturfing is strong in this thread.