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Groyper Wars in Full Effect - Shapero takes massive artillary damage

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Panda1

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The Culture War college tour started on 7 October at the University Of Nevada in Reno, after which the show moved to Grand Canyon University in Phoenix on 21 October, the Colorado State University in Fort Collins and the University of Iowa on 23 and 24 October. The next day, the tour stopped at the University of New Hampshire.

During these last stops of the tour a new phenomenon became visible. More and more new self-declared ‘dissident right’ activists used the opportunity of the Q&A sessions of the show to frame Kirk and what they see as 'The Conservative, Inc.’ as imposters and fake conservatives. - Groypers have been invading all QandA's and asking about traditional conservative/Christian values, Israel and immigration.

The old divide and infighting between conservatives re-emerges. These activists go by the name Nickers – in the sense of fans of extreme right YouTube personality and host of America First Nick Fuentes – or Groypers.

Nick Fuentes is the complete opposite of a shock jock, a Zoomer Youtuber, trolling and meme'ing his way to victory with humour and Joker quotes.

You might not like either party but damn its been a wild ride! Nick with his 40k followers has managed to almost destroy Turning Point USA, with people like Paul Joseph Watson, Sargon, JF, AMazing Lucas, and a host of others all chipping in with their support as well as many conservatives trying to shoot down the Nickers.

This resulted in Shapiro spending an hour trying to shoot down the points


But all he has done is made Fuentes even more popular - he has gained 20k plus youtube subs, had 17,000 live watching him on D-Live and this shows no sign of slowing down.


 
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There needs to be the understanding that if you're a "conservative" and all you're interested in conserving is fiscal growth, then you'll sell out any virtue you have in the pursuit of the material.
Neocons like Shapiro, like Kirk, aren't conserving anything, not demographics, not Christianity, not the Nuclear family, nothing and they've been ceding the culture war since the 50's. If you look a lot like a liberal socially, you're probably not conservative.
Corporate interests sold out the European and African American populace in favor of endless migration and cheap labor, we have the modern conservative to thank for upholding this rather than putting a stop to it. For reference, a government exists to protect the populace it serves, not seek to actively replace it, that's treason.
 

DKehoe

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If I’ve got no idea what something is there’s a good chance it’s to do with a YouTuber.
 
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Panda1

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For those that dont understand - you dont have to be concerned about any of it, but just at the mere spectacle of Nick bringing down TP USA! Its incredible how much one kid can effect these events!


And who knew Israelis were such great dancers!!!
 
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autoduelist

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I'm old, I don't know what any of this is, and I hate it.
Neither did I a couple days ago.

I believe based on my research this is relatively accurate:

The dissident right dislikes many mainstream conservative voices for various reasons - generally considering them 'fake' conservatives for their positions on foreign aid, christian values, immigration, and more. A primary complaint is essentially 'if you're going to adopt every leftist position to attract more to the right, you have effectively become the left'.

This came to a boil a week ago or so, when Nick was kicked out of an event so that he didn't ask a question, fundamentally challenging Turning Point's supposedly 'free speech' position.

I listened to the Amazing Lucas vid interviewing Nick a couple days ago. It was actually well done - Amazing Lucas just asked questions, let Nick talk. He didn't push back, just let Nick talk, come what may.

It became quickly apparent why Nick Fuentes is a problem for some conservative voices. He brings extremely difficult topics into the conversation that you're not allowed to talk about anymore- like homosexuality and Christianity, immigration and birth rates and impact of demographic change, corporate interests intentionally creating underclasses, and what it means to be American.

One point that stuck with me, for example, was in regards to that last statement. If America is simply the will of the people, then America will necessarily become something different with unchecked mass immigration [and even just unassimilated population growth]. But if America is, instead, a set of core values that we value and want to protect, then we need to take that into consideration, and not sweep it under the rug because the discussion makes everyone uncomfortable. He points out, for example, how many non-Western countries protect their demographics as a matter of course, and how if a third world country was going through the same dramatic shifts as some in the Western world, it would be called cultural imperialism or colonialism, not diversity.

And these are such hot topics that even engaging with them causes minds to melt. Charlie Kirk of Turning Point got lambasted for some of his responses, especially regarding aid to Israel. So the attempt to stifle all this backfired, and now it's front and center.

I do think Nick Fuentes, regardless of anyone's opinion of him or his ideas, is absolutely correct about one thing: we should be able to discuss these issues, and others. And the fact that so many have been cowed into silence out of fear due to the left is a serious problem. Free speech should not be a radical position, but the default American position.

[Worth noting, i've only seen Fuentes speak in that one Lucas vid, so I have no idea how he falls on many issues. That vid alone made it clear why the left hates him, and many on the right have no answer for him, tho.]
 

oagboghi2

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Nick Fuentes is a Richard Spencer fanboy. I don’t take anything he says seriously
 

infinitys_7th

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Nick Fuentes is a Richard Spencer fanboy. I don’t take anything he says seriously
Which makes it all the more hilarious when he outwits neocons.

It's like with the Sargon-Spencer debate - how stupid are people like Sargon or Charlie Kirk or Ben Shapiro when they cannot out-bullshit Spencer or Fuentes? That is pathetic. Fuentes badgered Ben Shapiro into reading a hypothetical that compares the Holocaust to baking cookies, such that you can edit out the first few seconds and make it sound like Shapiro is saying it himself (as I do here; to be clear, Ben Shapiro is NOT comparing the Holocaust to baking cookies):


How could anyone intelligent let someone like Fuentes get them to do that, in the modern culture where out-of-context soundbites and even just repeating what others have said as a matter of conversation are regularly used to destroy people.
 
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oagboghi2

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Which makes it all the more hilarious when he outwits neocons.

It's like with the Sargon-Spencer debate - how stupid are people like Sargon or Charlie Kirk or Ben Shapiro when they cannot out-bullshit Spencer or Fuentes? That is pathetic. Fuentes badgered Ben Shapiro into reading a hypothetical that compares the Holocaust to baking cookies, such that you can edit out the first few seconds and make it sound like Shapiro is saying it himself (as I do here; to be clear, Ben Shapiro is NOT comparing the Holocaust to baking cookies):


How could anyone intelligent let someone like Fuentes get them to do that, in the modern culture where out-of-context soundbites and even just repeating what others have said as a matter of conversation are regularly used to destroy people.
But he isn’t outwitting them. He is disrupting speaking events. That is pretty much it
 

Rentahamster

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One point that stuck with me, for example, was in regards to that last statement. If America is simply the will of the people, then America will necessarily become something different with unchecked mass immigration [and even just unassimilated population growth]. But if America is, instead, a set of core values that we value and want to protect, then we need to take that into consideration, and not sweep it under the rug because the discussion makes everyone uncomfortable. He points out, for example, how many non-Western countries protect their demographics as a matter of course, and how if a third world country was going through the same dramatic shifts as some in the Western world, it would be called cultural imperialism or colonialism, not diversity.
It's the identitarian/identity politics argument but from the right. They criticize the hypocritical positions of the traditional right as being secretly left, yet they're more than happy to take up the tools and methods of the SJW left. As conservatives like to say, you don't solve racism with more racism. And if that's true, then you don't solve idpol with more idpol.

It'll be interesting to see if this movement gains more steam. It'll be like Tea Party Part Deux: Electric Boogaloo. Unfortunately for the Democrats, the establishment still has them by the balls, so they haven't even gotten to their Tea Party part one yet.
 

infinitys_7th

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But he isn’t outwitting them. He is disrupting speaking events. That is pretty much it
You don't think that Kirk and company should be smart enough to sniff out the bullshit or figure out how to starve the Groypers of the reactions that they want?

Instead, they just (rather bizarrely) start talking about how much they love Israel in response to every question. I don't think the Groypers care about Israel so much as they are anti-Semites and think Jews run the world, so I don't get why "Israel is the best!" is what all these people say onto when the anti-Semites come trolling. Why not lay out facts to the Holocaust deniers? Shapiro could have refuted the cookie analogy just by saying that no one has claimed that all of the Jews murdered were cremated in ovens.

Based on their reaction, my takeaway is that the TPUSA guys and their allies are just MIC stanners - their goal is to defend sending loads of money and weapons to Israel and keep on "spreading Democracy". They do not care about the Holocaust denial bullshit, just whether their friend the Lockheed rep takes them out on another deep-sea fishing trip.
 
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Panda1

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Nick Fuentes is a Richard Spencer fanboy. I don’t take anything he says seriously
Exactly, apart from the part where he is not! But well done for using famous muh racist allt -right to shut down debate. I mean oagboghi2 you are part of the neo-Nazi forum Neogaf right - why should I listen to you?
Come on champ you can do better than this shit.
 
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btgorman

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The Culture War college tour started on 7 October at the University Of Nevada in Reno, after which the show moved to Grand Canyon University in Phoenix on 21 October, the Colorado State University in Fort Collins and the University of Iowa on 23 and 24 October. The next day, the tour stopped at the University of New Hampshire.

During these last stops of the tour a new phenomenon became visible. More and more new self-declared ‘dissident right’ activists used the opportunity of the Q&A sessions of the show to frame Kirk and what they see as 'The Conservative, Inc.’ as imposters and fake conservatives. - Groypers have been invading all QandA's and asking about traditional conservative/Christian values, Israel and immigration.

The old divide and infighting between conservatives re-emerges. These activists go by the name Nickers – in the sense of fans of extreme right YouTube personality and host of America First Nick Fuentes – or Groypers.

Nick Fuentes is the complete opposite of a shock jock, a Zoomer Youtuber, trolling and meme'ing his way to victory with humour and Joker quotes.

You might not like either party but damn its been a wild ride! Nick with his 40k followers has managed to almost destroy Turning Point USA, with people like Paul Joseph Watson, Sargon, JF, AMazing Lucas, and a host of others all chipping in with their support as well as many conservatives trying to shoot down the Nickers.

This resulted in Shapiro spending an hour trying to shoot down the points


But all he has done is made Fuentes even more popular - he has gained 20k plus youtube subs, had 17,000 live watching him on D-Live and this shows no sign of slowing down.


I find Shapiro a sniveling conservabrat as much as the next guy, but I don’t see anything here.

The first video I heard nick talk like 10 seconds and then turned it off. Nick sounds and pantomimes like a kid rather than a serious thinker. Edgy.

The second video had a little more substance but ultimately not enough. There’s a thread of something interesting there but it’s not near Shapiro getting BTFO.

So far I’m thinking these people are just a waste of time.
 

Panda1

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I find Shapiro a sniveling conservabrat as much as the next guy, but I don’t see anything here.

The first video I heard nick talk like 10 seconds and then turned it off. Nick sounds and pantomimes like a kid rather than a serious thinker. Edgy.

The second video had a little more substance but ultimately not enough. There’s a thread of something interesting there but it’s not near Shapiro getting BTFO.

So far I’m thinking these people are just a waste of time.
Nick is 21, so yes he basically is a kid, which goes even more against the Conservative.Inc that can't even mention his name and scared to discuss questions in a ASK ME ANYTHING I AM FOR FREE SPEECH talk. These people are a complete waste of time -they stand for absolutely nothing and its hilarious seeing them all fall apart.
 

Taxexemption

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What really angers mainstream people about these groypers is they are well dressed, and some of them were carrying rosaries, a sign of their Catholic faith. Nick Fuentes is Catholic by the way. Supposedly some of these Q&A's now have people going through the lines to remove everyone with a rosary. If that's accurate it basically means these people don't believe in an open debate if you sincerely have a religious belief that conflicts with some of the current values of so called conservatives. If you really believe in something that has to do with morality, and are unwilling to compromise your beliefs, we are building a society that will hate you.
 
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Panda1

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What really angers mainstream people about these groypers is they are well dressed, and some of them were carrying rosaries, a sign of their Catholic faith. Nick Fuentes is Catholic by the way. Supposedly some of these Q&A's now have people going through the lines to remove everyone with a rosary. If that's accurate t basically means these people don't believe in an open debate if you sincerely have a religious belief that conflicts with some of the current values of so called conservatives. If you really believe in something that has to do with morality, and are unwilling to compromise your beliefs, we are building a society that will hate you.
Yup I like how some headlines are 'They were infiltrated!' ... Like they went to an open event, listened for the whole talk and were invited to ask ANY QUESTION! then when they do, and all are well spoken and trying to ask real questions they get shut down! It exposes grifters like 'Change my Mind' Crowder etc that they are all full of shit. Now all the questions will be scripted or have to be known in advance, or like in the last event they had to try to weed out supposed Nickers. All the while Afro-Latino Fuentes has basically won!
 

infinitys_7th

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What really angers mainstream people about these groypers is they are well dressed, and some of them were carrying rosaries, a sign of their Catholic faith. Nick Fuentes is Catholic by the way. Supposedly some of these Q&A's now have people going through the lines to remove everyone with a rosary. If that's accurate t basically means these people don't believe in an open debate if you sincerely have a religious belief that conflicts with some of the current values of so called conservatives. If you really believe in something that has to do with morality, and are unwilling to compromise your beliefs, we are building a society that will hate you.
That's what I mean - why is TPUSA et al letting them get so triggered over this? They are letting a 21-year old Hispanic white supremacist anti-Semitic (I'm waiting for him to end up being part Jewish, because that is how it usually ends up lol) troll get the best of them. Shapiro in particular has presented himself as this intellectual peak in the conservative movement and he is falling for this hook, line, and sinker.
 

autoduelist

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It's the identitarian/identity politics argument but from the right. They criticize the hypocritical positions of the traditional right as being secretly left, yet they're more than happy to take up the tools and methods of the SJW left. As conservatives like to say, you don't solve racism with more racism. And if that's true, then you don't solve idpol with more idpol.

It'll be interesting to see if this movement gains more steam. It'll be like Tea Party Part Deux: Electric Boogaloo. Unfortunately for the Democrats, the establishment still has them by the balls, so they haven't even gotten to their Tea Party part one yet.
I think Nick takes it to that level at times based on that interview [again, that is my entire knowledge of him] but I would argue even mass immigration of White Europeans from many countries would be ideologically dangerous due to the socialism prevalent there. That is, it isn't about race, although sometimes there is crossover, and that crossover makes all discussion forbidden.

I absolutely agree identity politics is an absolute danger, but at the same time, I also recognize that ideological stance is of import. I believe the old America - come here penniless, and with some blood, sweat, and tears you build yourself up - with your goal being a better life for your children, not necessarily an easy life for yourself, inherently instilled core American values. This allowed a true 'melting pot', where we all recognized some form of the American Dream. Many of my ancestors came here at less than zero, escaping horrific conditions. Others were here during the founding, and had their own struggles. I am thankful to them for persevering through whatever hardships they had to. And I recognize what they built for future generations- not just my family, but bridges, and building, and traintracks.

But I fear good intentions have destroyed that drive to assimilate and succeed. Social programs out the wazoo have eliminated the absolute requirement that you pick yourself up by the bootstraps. Far from seeing immigrant communities flourish, we actually see not just them, but pre-existing communities destroyed by social programs that incentivize fatherlessness, among other things. And incoming immigrants often self-segregate, and little or no assimilation occurs [Somali diaspora, for example].

We've always self segregated to some extent [China Town, Little Italy, etc] but the underlying reasons have changed due to well meaning social programs. And I think people are too afraid to admit why communities often self-segregate in the first place - I don't think it's a hatred of difference so much as the comfort of same, but even saying that is dangerous nowadays, and that's a problem. And I think that brings us to the major issue. These cultural/ideological issues do have some crossover with race, making the discussion nearly impossible to have.

I think America stands out for it's embracing of immigration throughout history, and it's ability to welcome all who dream of opportunity. So it bothers me to hear leftists call it racist, when in fact, it was and is ahead of its time. But at the same time, I fear we have undermined why it worked so well in the past.

That is, I think part of what America promised was the ability to identify first as an American, and then as your heritage. That is, in theory, we are all Americans... and we identified as such whether we were Italian Americans or Korean Americans. MLK's 'content of your character'. But in recent years, the far left has been villifying both Americanism and whiteness, and in doing so is giving the opposite a platform.

I guess what it comes down to is culture. The left seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. Wearing a sombrero, or eating a taco, is racist cultural appropriation. But what about American culture? Why isn't that protected? Doesn't sharing the same stories, the same language, the same songs, the same legends and mythology, the same great literature, the same heros, the same villains mean something? And why is me saying that in any way questioned, let alone villified? And the same goes for any other culture and country, from Vietnam to Ireland to Italy to Brazil to Sweden to Somalia.

Take Ireland, for example. They've been through mass famine, genocide, and mass enslavement [and we're not allowed to use that word, but I use it despite the word police]. They have a language, and a story, and songs, and heros. Who are diversity police to say that is not enough, that their land is everyone's land? And I can say that about many, many countries, like Sweden, the Chinese movement into Africa, or Hong Kong, etc.

I do think America is an exception to some degree, in a particularly odd space in this debate because of its history of immigration, assimilation, new-ness, and Constitution. I feel we are built upon an idea that anyone can come here, and become American. But I think part and parcel of that is that they agree to that bargain too. You aren't American because you stand here. It can't just be that. China can't just fly 350 million people here due to open borders and outvote all Americans. And i realize that is a hyperbolic example, but it exposes the fundemental question of 'who are we'... and we're no longer allowed to ask that question. Or at least, we're only allowed to answer with a single answer unless we want condemnation.

But the fact is, regardless of race, many Americans share core values and cultural history. A brand new legal immigrant can wave that flag on Independence Day proudest, and highest, and he'll rightfully get high fives for it. But while we celebrate that, it's also clear strong anti-Americanism had seeped into public discourse.

I wish race didn't come into it at all, because I agree it brings in some of the more vile opinions, both left and right, into the debate. But there is still debate to be had despite this. And i think that's why Fuentes is such a problem, he forces conversations like this. And honestly, he brings up even more controversial ideas in that one interview than I'm even addressing here, but that's sort of the point of ideas. We should have them, and discuss them.
 
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oagboghi2

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Exactly, apart from the part where he is not! But well done for using famous muh racist allt -right to shut down debate. I mean oagboghi2 you are part of the neo-Nazi forum Neogaf right - why should I listen to you?
Come on champ you can do better than this shit.
Except that there is no part where he isn’t. I know Nick Fuentes has tried to scrub his history,but I have a pretty good memory.

And sorry, but I’m not quite convinced by right-wing identity politics. It’s cute that Nick isn’t flagrantly calling for a white ethnostate as much as he used to, but his bullshit is still just that. Bullshit.

I wouldn’t waste my time on him either
 

Panda1

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Except that there is no part where he isn’t. I know Nick Fuentes has tried to scrub his history,but I have a pretty good memory.

And sorry, but I’m not quite convinced by right-wing identity politics. It’s cute that Nick isn’t flagrantly calling for a white ethnostate as much as he used to, but his bullshit is still just that. Bullshit.

I wouldn’t waste my time on him either
But the point is not the fact of his stance,. its that they are turning up to 'free speech' conservatives and getting shut down. The right are claiming the free speech high ground and that Ben 'I can destroy you with facts' Shapiro can't even name Nick and their events heavily censored.
 

oagboghi2

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But the point is not the fact of his stance,. its that they are turning up to 'free speech' conservatives and getting shut down. The right are claiming the free speech high ground and that Ben 'I can destroy you with facts' Shapiro can't even name Nick and their events heavily censored.
So I should join ethnostate Fuentes becuase Ben Shapiro doesn’t want to argue holocaust denialism?

Storm in a Teacup
 

-Arcadia-

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I had trouble understanding some of that, but if what I took away is correct, I support this.

Things didn’t get this clown just because of the left. There’s a sickness at the heart of conservatism, a kind of inaction, complacency, cowardice, and stupidity, that enables the former both willingly and unwittingly.

‘Cuck’servatives need to go.
 

Panda1

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So I should join ethnostate Fuentes becuase Ben Shapiro doesn’t want to argue holocaust denialism?

Storm in a Teacup
No - but waaaay to miss the point!! Also fyi he has never denied the holocaust - he has just questioned the number. If I say King Leopold II killed 15 million Congolese and some say 5mil does that make me a denier of the event. Its a great way to shut down debate though - but you should have called him a neo-nazi racist first! that the first go to ..then you can bring in being in anti-Semitism then throw in some anti0alphabet for good measure.
Come on you know the playbook .... 5/10 .. You can do better champ!
 
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nemiroff

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Jesus.. I lasted 50 seconds of that video.., he's even more unbearable than Shapiro. Thanks but no thanks.
 
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Jesus.. I lasted 50 seconds of that video.., he's even more unbearable than Shapiro.
Disagree about Shapiro, that nasally guy is awful and so is the Israel First Corporatism that he stands for. With that said, Nick is nearly unlistenable, but for younger people than I he is charismatic and he brings up questions that conservatives need to wrestle with, deep existential questions, from demographics and the consistent way they vote, to what we should be conserving in the first place, what does it mean to be American?
 
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FMXVII

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All I know is, at the mention of Ben Shapiro,I again feelcompelled to give a shout out of thanks to the GAFer who made mention of Shapiro's sister's clothes pictures.

I cannot believe that Ben Shapiro is all bad, when THAT issued from the same womb as he.
 
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nemiroff

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Disagree about Shapiro, that nasally guy is awful and so is the Israel First Corporatism that he stands for. With that said, Nick is nearly unlistenable, but for younger people than I he is charismatic and he brings up questions that conservatives need to wrestle with, deep existential questions, from demographics and the consistent way they vote, to what we should be conserving in the first place, what does it mean to be American?
You are right. Thumbs up.
 

EviLore

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What is this garbage? You're trying to promote actual alt-right figures here?
 
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