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Guardian source: "“They now have specific concrete... evidence of collusion"

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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
How many Congressman have said "I've seen things that show collusion. People will go to jail"?

Like 4 or 5 now?

I'd prefer they show it to me, but I understand these things take time. Also, they all have a vested interest in being anti-Trump. It's not a deal breaker, but I need to keep that in mind when judging how seriously to take each claim.
 

theWB27

Member
"Throwing it out" is a weird way to interpret "Not jumping to conclusions based on as of yet no evidence of fire".

Right. Dress it how you please. You're skeptical because there's no fire. So the evidence that's out there isn't enough for you. People have been posting that same message on this board since this stuff has been going on.
 

oti

Banned
dis3.gif

Let's get all Realpolitik here for a second.

While I know people on here like to fill every thread with "hold the L" gifs, the fact is he has flip flopped on many stupid opinions. As dumb as that guy is, saying NATO isn't obsolete is a good sign. This is politics. You take what you can get and try to calculate moves. He's still an idiot, he still shouldn't be anywhere near a position of power. But he's the President. No matter how many gifs people post, nothing will change that. Having the President of the US say he now likes NATO all of a sudden is the best you can get with someone like Trump.
 

KingV

Member
I'd prefer they show it to me, but I understand these things take time. Also, they all have a vested interest in being anti-Trump. It's not a deal breaker, but I need to keep that in mind when judging how seriously to take each claim.

They can't show it to you without breaking a law. To some extent about half of the democrats on the committee have put their reputations on the line saying that there is a there-there.
 
Let's get all Realpolitik here for a second.

While I know people on here like to fill every thread with "hold the L" gifs, the fact is he has flip flopped on many stupid opinions. As dumb as that guy is, saying NATO isn't obsolete is a good sign. This is politics. You take what you can get and try to calculate moves. He's still an idiot, he still shouldn't be anywhere near of a position of power. But he's the President. No matter how many gifs people post, nothing will change that. Having the President of the US say he now likes NATO all of a sudden is the best you can get with someone like Trump.

Psst, Trump has flip flopped well before all that. Remember how the election was all rigged, then it wasn't rigged, but then it was rigged again? Dude is all over the place. He's still steadfast on doing horrible fucking shit to rape this country. What does it really matter if he gives a little lip service to people who want to hear that? How low of a standard can you possibly have?
 
I just don't think anything will come from this stuff. Given what we know about his campaign do you really think they would be have had the intellect to actually hide the majority of this stuff? I mean most of them appear to be morons, if there was collusion it would be in plain sight.
 
I just don't think anything will come from this stuff. Given what we know about his campaign do you really think they would be have had the intellect to actually hide the majority of this stuff? I mean most of them appear to be morons, if there was collusion it would be in plain sight.

I think this is kind of proving that they didn't hide it very well...
 

rambis

Banned
The stuff in the dossier that make the dossier so attractive an issue for some people. Like the pee pee tape, for example.


.

I ask you to specify because constantly growing list of corrobated details is neither obvious or boring. Its not obvious that people like Page and Manafort had undisclosed meetings with Russia's top spy on US soil, for instance.

And who following this seriously gives one fuck about the pee tape?
 

oti

Banned
Psst, Trump has flip flopped well before all that. Remember how the election was all rigged, then it wasn't rigged, but then it was rigged again? Dude is all over the place. He's still steadfast on doing horrible fucking shit to rape this country. What does it really matter if he gives a little lip service to people who want to hear that? How low of a standard can you possibly have?

Psst, I know. Everybody knows. I'm not saying everything's great now.

Talking about standards, you do know what Realpolitik means, right? You take what you can get. Trump is president. That's the situation. You can't change that. But we started with the US pushing China/Germany/NATO away. Now we're at a vastly better outlook. That's objectively better.

I'm not saying he's a great president.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
I just don't think anything will come from this stuff. Given what we know about his campaign do you really think they would be have had the intellect to actually hide the majority of this stuff? I mean most of them appear to be morons, if there was collusion it would be in plain sight.

NSA has been fired and retroactively registered as foreign agent
Former campaign manager has registered as foreign agent and may be facing charges in Ukraine
National Security Advisor on the campaign met with Russian spy and passed along information
AG had to recuse himself
House Intel Committee chairmen had to recuse himself

Things have already come from this stuff, and will continue to as more and more comes to light. Remember when Trumps entire campaign said they had "absolutely no contact with the Russians?" which then turned into "no contact with the Russians during the campaign" which then turned into "no contact with Russian officials" which then turned into "ok yeah, we did talk to them all the fucking time but there was no collusion."

I just don't get this line of thinking. We learn more and more every week, and yet "nothing will come of this?" I just don't understand that line of thinking.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Right. Dress it how you please. You're skeptical because there's no fire. So the evidence that's out there isn't enough for you. People have been posting that same message on this board since this stuff has been going on.
Yes, the evidence of smoke does not warrant the very high level of hysteria (for lack of a better word) that we've seen in response. Save it for when (if) the hammer comes down.

They can't show it to you without breaking a law. To some extent about half of the democrats on the committee have put their reputations on the line saying that there is a there-there.
I know that there are some things that they can't show us yet. I'm fine with waiting. To your second point, a lot of Republicans put their reputations on the line for Benghazi BS, but they're still doing okay. It's a side effect of hyper polarization.

Yeah, sorry we all can't keep up with you...
I didn't imply that you can't keep up.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I ask you to specify because constantly growing list of corrobated details is neither obvious or boring. Its not obvious that people like Page and Manafort had undisclosed meetings with Russia's top spy on US soil, for instance.

And who following this seriously gives one fuck about the pee tape?

Obvious or boring in the sense of things that don't tie Trump directly to the thing everyone is alleging he's "obviously" guilty of.

Lots of people still care about pee pee.
 
Psst, I know. Everybody knows. I'm not saying everything's great now.

Talking about standards, you do know what Realpolitik means, right? You take what you can get. Trump is president. That's the situation. You can't change that. But we started with the US pushing China/Germany/NATO away. Now we're at a vastly better outlook. That's objectively better.

I'm not saying he's a great president.

If it means lowering your standards to that shit while he does everything to rape and destroy this country and people within it to have some kind of victory because he gave lip service that's basically meaningless and will probably be flipped on again soon, you can keep that shit lol. Fucking Jesus.
 

gcubed

Member
I expect Trump just to be the straight moron and ask his team so get arrested. Not sure how much better that is
 
It may not be noticeable to you, but it's noticeable to me.


But again, as I acknowledged to rambis, this could very well be confirmation bias on my part. I'm always open to that possibility because I have a slightly more evolved monkey brain.
This seems rather likely. After all, you seem rather sure this is all nothing because there hasn't been enough evidence, despite having no clue what evidence they actually do or don't have. But yet in the same breath in this post, you say there's been some change of opinion on Trump and that he's going in a positive direction despite no polls showing any such thing and continuing to do reprehensible actions like trying to defund Planned Parenthood and trying to continue to get rid of the ACA, and are thus basing those feelings... on what evidence exactly? You just say "attitudes are changing" but provide nothing to support that at all. In the same breath, you decry there not being enough evidence for one thing, but nonetheless hold a belief yourself despite their being a complete absence of anything other then complete anecdotal evidence for it.

Currently feeling that this is all nothing because there isn't evidence to support it, while in the same breath saying sentiment toward Trump has changed while you can't actually produce any evidence to actually support that belief but nonetheless feeling that way anyway? Confirmation bias or some other phenomenon definitely feels likely here, yes, when your supposed skepticism seems situational at best and seems to appear and disappear as needed.
 
I just don't think anything will come from this stuff. Given what we know about his campaign do you really think they would be have had the intellect to actually hide the majority of this stuff? I mean most of them appear to be morons, if there was collusion it would be in plain sight.

::gestures wildly everywhere::

Literally everything that's happened over the past few months has been because they are morons. It's "Stupid Watergate" to quote John Oliver.

See: Devin Nunes, Michael Flynn, Carter Page, Jeff Sessions' accidental self-incrimination, "wiretapp", Trump's various contradictory statements on whether or not he's met Vladimir Putin, Paul "That's what he sai,,,uh...that's what I said, uh...that's uh, what our position is" Manafort and so on.
 

rambis

Banned
Obvious or boring in the sense of things that don't tie Trump directly to the thing everyone is alleging he's "obviously" guilty of.

Lots of people still care about pee pee.
You're losing me. What exactly are you talking about? You seem to be trying to seperate Trump and his campaign team.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Yeah, me and my not as highly evolved monkey brain lol. Yeah man...sure.


Hamster has been running this bit with minor variations for a couple of months now and I shouldn't bite but it irritates me knowing that he's just going to move the goalposts and then claim some sort of moral thoroughness.
 

theWB27

Member
Yes, the evidence of smoke does not warrant the very high level of hysteria (for lack of a better word) that we've seen in response. Save it for when (if) the hammer comes down.


I know that there are some things that they can't show us yet. I'm fine with waiting. To your second point, a lot of Republicans put their reputations on the line for Benghazi BS, but they're still doing okay. It's a side effect of hyper polarization.


I didn't imply that you can't keep up.

There hasn't been hysteria. There have been threads when evidence comes out and we discuss it. Some people come in and drop lines like nothing is going to happen and others come in and state how they can't stand how nothing is happening.

In the middle has been discussions. The more hysterical thing is posters telling us none of this means anything because of no fire and then making everything out there mean less because of that lack of fire.

It's cool you're able to stay so level headed...but most of us in these threads are doing the same. In the end...I don't get what you get out of it. You aren't saying anything really.
 

E-Cat

Member
This will be the smoking gun that sinks the Trump administration, says increasingly nervous man for seventh time this year.

600.jpg
 

oti

Banned
If it means lowering your standards to that shit while he does everything to rape and destroy this country and people within it to have some kind of victory because he gave lip service that's basically meaningless and will probably be flipped on again soon, you can keep that shit lol. Fucking Jesus.

Well, from an outsider's perspective things are looking better. That's all we got. What you do inside the US is your business. I'm talking geo-politcs. For the US, Trump is an utter desaster and nothing else.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
This seems rather likely. After all, you seem rather sure this is all nothing because there hasn't been enough evidence, despite having no clue what evidence they actually do or don't have.

No, no, no. I'm saying I'm not sure this is anything. I'm not sure this is nothing. I said that I'm open to the possibility it is something. What I'm opposed to is acting like there is more there than the evidence currently warrants. Especially when that cuts into messaging about positive policies that should be in the national conversation.

You just say "attitudes are changing" but provide nothing to support that at all. In the same breath, you decry there not being enough evidence for one thing, but nonetheless hold a belief yourself despite their being a complete absence of anything other then complete anecdotal evidence for it.
I mentioned previously that this is how it looks to me. There really isn't anything we can do to really measure it out, except for polling, but I've said that I feel the polls still suffer from some of the same flaws that they exhibited during the election. As to evidence of changing attitudes, I point to how there were daily protests and lots of people convinced Trump was the second coming of Hitler. Now, there are no longer daily protests, the media agrees that Hitler comparisons are stupid, and Fareed Zakaria had an orgasm over Trump's missile on CNN.

Confirmation bias or some other phenomenon definitely feels likely here, yes, when your supposed skepticism seems situational at best and seems to appear and disappear as needed.
I don't think it's as situational as you think, but if it's any consolation, I do try to keep it in mind.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Hamster has been running this bit with minor variations for a couple of months now and I shouldn't bite but it irritates me knowing that he's just going to move the goalposts and then claim some sort of moral thoroughness.

What goalposts have I moved? Couple of months? I've been saying the same thing since 2015.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
There hasn't been hysteria. There have been threads when evidence comes out and we discuss it. Some people come in and drop lines like nothing is going to happen and others come in and state how they can't stand how nothing is happening.

I think it's a little over the top. Here's one example.

https://theintercept.com/2017/04/12...ussia-connection-lurking-around-every-corner/

ONE DAY AFTER her network joined the rest of corporate media in cheering for President Trump’s missile attack on Syria, MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow was back to regular business: seeing Russian collaboration with Trump at work.

It’s “impossible,” fellow anchor Lawrence O’Donnell told Maddow on April 7, to rule out that “Vladimir Putin orchestrated what happened in Syria this week – so that his friend in the White House could have a big night with missiles and all of the praise he’s picked up over the past 24 hours.”

Maddow concurred, suggesting that only the FBI’s ongoing probe into Trump’s alleged collusion with Russian electoral interference will determine the truth. “Maybe eventually we’ll get an answer to that from [FBI Director] Jim Comey,” Maddow said.

The Washington Post noted that the “conspiracy theory” drew “derision from across the political spectrum.” But it was not out of place.

The Intercept conducted a quantitative study of all 28 TRMS episodes in the six-week period between February 20 and March 31. Russia-focused segments accounted for 53 percent of these broadcasts.

That figure is conservative, excluding segments where Russia was discussed, but was not the overarching topic.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
I'm not getting my hopes up, but I'm glad that people are looking to expose this shit show. God we need this dude impeached. And I had friends that were frothy mouthed supporters of Trump. Still are, actually.
 
There really isn't anything we can do to really measure it out, except for polling, but I've said that I feel the polls still suffer from some of the same flaws that they exhibited during the election.

The polls weren't flawed during the election, ffs this stupid narrative. Hillary won by exactly as much as the polls said she would. It's just the distribution of the population wasn't in her favor, so she didn't get the electoral map she needed. And the states she lost were well within the margin of error.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
That's not hysteria.

Call it what you want. Note that I just used the term "hysteria" for lack of a better term. Feel free to describe it less harshly if you want, but stuff like implying Trump is in bed with Russia if he decides to pull troops away from Russia's border?

That's sounds pretty irresponsible to say to a "think skinned trigger happy buffoon" like Trump.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/mad...as-border-because-putin-has-something-on-him/

“A U.S. deployment much larger than that just arrived in Poland as well,” Maddow explained. “This happened the past week, the largest U.S. deployment in Europe since the end of the Cold War. 1,000 troops, going up to several thousand troops, stationed in Poland.”

The MSNBC host said President Obama sent troops there earlier than planned after negotiating with these countries who “want Americans there.”

“Russia hates it, but our allies—they say they want it,” Maddow added.

“There is a lot going on in politics right now,” she said. “But the president is very quietly leaving a whole bunch of U.S. troops on Russia’s doorstep on his way out the door. And here’s the question: is the new president going to take those troops out?”

How would we feel if Russia put up a bunch of troops in Mexico or Canada?
 

theWB27

Member
Call it what you want. Note that I just used the term "hysteria" for lack of a better term. Feel free to describe it less harshly if you want, but stuff like implying Trump is in bed with Russia if he decides to pull troops away from Russia's border?

That's sounds pretty irresponsible to say to a "think skinned trigger happy buffoon" like Trump.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/01/mad...as-border-because-putin-has-something-on-him/



How would we feel if Russia put up a bunch of troops in Mexico or Canada?

I wish you'd use the terms you mean. Bruh...not to discount what you're showing me but to say it's irresponsible to call Trump anything after the shitshow he's put on is laughable at best.

If you see overwhelming evidence that a dude is in bed with someone as deep as it looks with trump and/or his associates it's hard to look at anything he does towards them as being anything but that.

I can see how one can look the other way if one believes what's out there is meaningless because of that lack of fire though.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
How is this hysterical? The Trump admin is directly disputing senior WH officials and the IC in saying that Russia knew of this attack and covered it up. The same thing is happening with top officals in Russia and Putin's spox. Is this not even a little suspicous to you.

It is suspicious. But it looks like financial corruption rather than treason/collusion/manchurian candidacy. That's why I don't think it warrants the level of reaction and coverage that it currently gets, especially when it takes away from talking about issues like medicare for all, free college, living wages, weed legalization, war divestment, etc etc.
 

Geist-

Member
It seems reasonable that they want ironclad cases against all parties involved, and will not act until they do....

...but at the same time, Trump is practically starting wars on a daily basis. If they have good reason to believe there is truth to this story, I think it needs to be publicly voiced so impeachment proceedings can begin. It seems crazy to let a Russian puppet continue to make decisions with huge consequences for the world, daily, just for the sake of making a tighter criminal case.
Seriously. I know justice is slow, but lives are on the line.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I wish you'd use the terms you mean. Bruh...not to discount what you're showing me but to say it's irresponsible to call Trump anything after the shitshow he's put on is laughable at best.

I did use the term I mean. It looks hysterical to me, but if it doesn't look that way to you, I offered to frame the discussion in terms that you'd prefer, if it makes the discussion flow easier and not get caught up in semantic argumentation.

I'm not saying it's irresponsible to call Trump anything. Call him out for the shit he does. I'm saying it's irresponsible to make claims that aren't warranted by evidence. The threshold of credibility for a lot of you is a lot lower than it is for me, and I fully acknowledge that. I'm just trying to illuminate my point of view to you.
 

rambis

Banned
It is suspicious. But it looks like financial corruption rather than treason/collusion/manchurian candidacy. That's why I don't think it warrants the level of reaction and coverage that it currently gets, especially when it takes away from talking about issues like medicare for all, free college, living wages, weed legalization, war divestment, etc etc.
How does it not look like both? Multiple members of Trump's team, including Trump himself publicly telegraphed leaks of damaging info that the world has concluded Russia stole from the DNC. Its like your either ill informed or just closing your eyes. Since the start of the campaign he has been advocating and deflecting for Russia/Putin like almost no other politician on any side has.
 
This will be the smoking gun that sinks the Trump administration, says increasingly nervous man for seventh time this year.

[IM/G]http://images2.onionstatic.com/onion/5217/3/16x9/600.jpg[/IMG]

This meme is getting annoying.

If you read between the lines; it's clear this investigation is MASSIVE and there's a bunch of people involved. They're not gonna blow their case by going after the small fish quickly just because they can.
 

theWB27

Member
I did use the term I mean. It looks hysterical to me, but if it doesn't look that way to you, I offered to frame the discussion in terms that you'd prefer, if it makes the discussion flow easier and not get caught up in semantic argumentation.

I'm not saying it's irresponsible to call Trump anything. Call him out for the shit he does. I'm saying it's irresponsible to make claims that aren't warranted by evidence. The threshold of credibility for a lot of you is a lot lower than it is for me, and I fully acknowledge that. I'm just trying to illuminate my point of view to you.

You're even saying it about Schiff when you don't know what the man has seen. However you spin it...you're saying none of this is anything right now because YOU haven't seen it.

You calling us out on anything is pointless because it is not us who brings forth anything to help the people investigating. Nor is it us who charges anyone. We are here discussing what we have. You are here discrediting it and what even the people closer to the investigation see because you haven't.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
You're even saying it about Schiff when you don't know what the man has seen. However you spin it...you're saying none of this is anything right now because YOU haven't seen it.

You calling us out on anything is pointless because it is not us who brings forth anything to help the people investigating. Nor is it us who charges anyone. We are here discussing what we have. You are here discrediting it and what even the people closer to the investigation see because you haven't.

No, no, no. That's not it. I'm saying to get concerned over the things that warrant concern, but don't go overboard on speculation and jump to conclusions.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
We have nothing to do with this other than discussing it on Neogaf.

Actually, my main concern is over the media, who have been going overboard on the speculating and dot connecting, in my opinion. It's good for ratings, so I can see why they'd want to do that.
 

theWB27

Member
Actually, my main concern is over the media, who have been going overboard on the speculating and dot connecting, in my opinion. It's good for ratings, so I can see why they'd want to do that.

If it weren't for said media this could've been buried.

My bad...I shouldn't say that considering how long the investigation has been going on.
 
Let's get all Realpolitik here for a second.

While I know people on here like to fill every thread with "hold the L" gifs, the fact is he has flip flopped on many stupid opinions. As dumb as that guy is, saying NATO isn't obsolete is a good sign. This is politics. You take what you can get and try to calculate moves. He's still an idiot, he still shouldn't be anywhere near a position of power. But he's the President. No matter how many gifs people post, nothing will change that. Having the President of the US say he now likes NATO all of a sudden is the best you can get with someone like Trump.

Problem with this^^ thinking is that you dont account for the fact that Trump could (and almost certainly will) change his opinion again at some point.

This phase of being "sensible" might last all of 2 weeks.
 
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